Frugal Living: Dec 4, 2007

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Renting VS Buying Homes
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/37be5c6af5aee907?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 11 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 4 2007 7:56 am
From: clams casino

Chad wrote:

>
>
>Oh, if you sell your home, you don't need to pay tax on net gain? I
>also heard people saying they don't need to pay tax if the house was
>their primary residence for at least 2 years. Otherwise, they have to
>pay tax. Is this true?
>
>

There are some limitations to the tax free gain (look it up), but most
will qualify for the tax free gain.

I'm guessing the 2-year residency was placed into the law so as not to
reward flipping.

== 2 of 11 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 4 2007 8:02 am
From: clams casino

Lou wrote:

>"clams casino" <PeterGriffin@drunkin-clam.com> wrote in message
>news:AZb5j.2098$su4.158@newsfe14.lga...
>
>
>>>2) Taxes. rent is not tax deductable. Mortgage intrest is.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>Only useful when it exceeds the standard deduction. Fewer and fewer
>>are qualifying for the long form.
>>
>>
>
>EVERYBODY qualifies for the long form. Using the short form is priviledge
>extended to some people (I know, probably everyone you've ever known) but
>legally, not everyone can use it, while anyone can choose to file the long
>form.
>
>
>
>
OK - everyone "qualifies" for the long form, but fewer and fewer have
adequate deductions to utilize it vs. a standard deduction even
including interest and property taxes.

For those who do have adequate deductions, it's also important to
realize that the advantage is really only an advantage to the amount
which surpasses the standard deduction.

== 3 of 11 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 4 2007 10:10 am
From: "Chloe"

"clams casino" <PeterGriffin@drunkin-clam.com> wrote in message
news:AZb5j.2098$su4.158@newsfe14.lga...
><snip> Only useful when it exceeds the standard deduction. Fewer and
>fewer are qualifying for the long form.
<snip>

I'm assuming you don't actually mean what you say about qualifying for the
long form, since anyone who chooses to can file using it. I think your
implication is that fewer and fewer people qualify for anything exceeding
the standard deduction. I don't usually ask people for cites to back up this
type of information, but I'm kind of at a loss where to search for these
statistics. Would you mind telling me your source--and over what time frame
is involved in your statistics?

== 4 of 11 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 4 2007 10:15 am
From: "Lou"

"Chad" <chadfsjob@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:5d6494ef-c884-4585-9beb-236334507942@t47g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
> >1. A yearly tax deduction
> I alraedy included the tax deduction in the calculation. The tax
> returned will be put into the investment account yearly.
>
> >2. A lump sum payment when the house is sold
> What is the lump sum payment when you sell your house?

It's your equity - the amount of money left over when you've paid the
broker, the closing costs, and the mortgage.

For instance, some 30-odd years ago I bought my first house. It cost the
then princely sum of $55,000. I lived in it for 10 years, at which time I
sold it. I had to pay off the outstanding balance on the mortgage, the
closing costs, etc. When all was said and done, there was $60,000 left over
that went to me. In effect, I got back the money I spent on payments over
the 10 years I lived there. If you rent a place for 10 years and decide to
move, you walk away. It's easy and quick, but nobody hands you a pile of
money as you walk out the door for the last time.

== 5 of 11 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 4 2007 10:23 am
From: "Lou"

"clams casino" <PeterGriffin@drunkin-clam.com> wrote in message
news:7Se5j.66$3b7.30@newsfe23.lga...
> OK - everyone "qualifies" for the long form, but fewer and fewer have
> adequate deductions to utilize it vs. a standard deduction even
> including interest and property taxes.

Maybe yes, maybe no - since my property taxes exceed the standard deduction,
that seems dubious to me, but then, NJ has higher than average property
taxes. In any case, do you have any figures to back up your assertion?

> For those who do have adequate deductions, it's also important to
> realize that the advantage is really only an advantage to the amount
> which surpasses the standard deduction.

Well, they should realize that, yes, but I probably wouldn't characterize it
as "important" - you get the deduction, and your tax bill is lower than it
would be if you rented. Since the initial premise was that your monthly
outlay was the same, own or rent, you come out ahead if you own.

== 6 of 11 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 4 2007 11:36 am
From: clams casino

Lou wrote:

>"clams casino" <PeterGriffin@drunkin-clam.com> wrote in message
>news:7Se5j.66$3b7.30@newsfe23.lga...
>
>
>>OK - everyone "qualifies" for the long form, but fewer and fewer have
>>adequate deductions to utilize it vs. a standard deduction even
>>including interest and property taxes.
>>
>>
>
>Maybe yes, maybe no - since my property taxes exceed the standard deduction,
>that seems dubious to me, but then, NJ has higher than average property
>taxes.
>

Considering 2007 federal standard deduction is to be $10,700 for a
married couple, that's quite a bit of property tax. Furthermore, with
that much property tax, you are likely paying the AMT which greatly
diminishes such tax advantages.

My sons are renting quite nice apartments for not much more than your
property taxes (albeit not NJ).

Perhaps you are single ($5350 std deduction) ? That could greatly
change the equation, although most single persons would likely be better
off renting an apartment vs. owning a home.

> In any case, do you have any figures to back up your assertion?
>
>

I don't have a quick reference, but less than half file for itemized
deductions which is heavily skewed towards >$50k incomes (progressively
more as the income increases).

>>For those who do have adequate deductions, it's also important to
>>realize that the advantage is really only an advantage to the amount
>>which surpasses the standard deduction.
>>
>>
>
>Well, they should realize that, yes, but I probably wouldn't characterize it
>as "important" - you get the deduction, and your tax bill is lower than it
>would be if you rented.
>

Depends significantly on the circumstances.

>Since the initial premise was that your monthly
>outlay was the same, own or rent, you come out ahead if you own.
>
>

Fully agree it generally makes little sense (with a few exceptions) to
rent for the same cost as owning. The advantage of renting is that you
can usually pay less for similar quality (albeit generally a smaller
dwelling) and bank the difference. Then again, a lot comes down what
is the real cost of owning (it's not simply mortgage, closing costs,
future selling costs, property taxes & insurance less deductions).

I suspect many new home owners have little idea what it really costs to
maintain a home.

== 7 of 11 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 4 2007 11:38 am
From: clams casino

Chloe wrote:

>"clams casino" <PeterGriffin@drunkin-clam.com> wrote in message
>news:AZb5j.2098$su4.158@newsfe14.lga...
>
>
>><snip> Only useful when it exceeds the standard deduction. Fewer and
>>fewer are qualifying for the long form.
>>
>>
><snip>
>
>I'm assuming you don't actually mean what you say about qualifying for the
>long form, since anyone who chooses to can file using it. I think your
>implication is that fewer and fewer people qualify for anything exceeding
>the standard deduction. I don't usually ask people for cites to back up this
>type of information, but I'm kind of at a loss where to search for these
>statistics. Would you mind telling me your source--and over what time frame
>is involved in your statistics?
>
>
>
>
>
I've read that many times, but I'm not quickly finding a reference.

I did, however, find the following:

"The difference between the short tax form and long tax form is
simple.

If you use the short form, the government gets your money.

If you use the long form, the accountant gets your money."

== 8 of 11 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 4 2007 11:56 am
From: "Lou"

"clams casino" <PeterGriffin@drunkin-clam.com> wrote in message
news:A_h5j.66$Fa7.51@newsfe17.lga...
.
>
> > In any case, do you have any figures to back up your assertion?
> >
> >
>
> I don't have a quick reference, but less than half file for itemized
> deductions which is heavily skewed towards >$50k incomes (progressively
> more as the income increases).

Whatever the overall percentages for short form and long form filers, that
doesn't really back up your assertion.

My feeling is that, if you buy a house, and are in the early years of your
mortgage (like the first 20 years or so of a 30 year mortgage), you'll find
it advantageous to itemize. If you own your house and the mortgage is
(nearly) paid off, or you had a large down payment, it might not be worth
the trouble, provided you qualify for using the short form.

I freely admit that it's just a feeling, based on personal experience and
the experience of friends and family - I don't have any "official" figures
to back that up.

== 9 of 11 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 4 2007 11:58 am
From: "Lou"

"clams casino" <PeterGriffin@drunkin-clam.com> wrote in message
news:M0i5j.67$Fa7.9@newsfe17.lga...
> I did, however, find the following:
>
>
> "The difference between the short tax form and long tax form is
> simple.
>
> If you use the short form, the government gets your money.
>
> If you use the long form, the accountant gets your money."

Ha Ha. Better the accountant. But for most folks, that's an exaggeration -
it's not all that difficult to fill in a few lines on Schedule A.

== 10 of 11 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 4 2007 11:59 am
From: clams casino

Chloe wrote:

>"clams casino" <PeterGriffin@drunkin-clam.com> wrote in message
>news:AZb5j.2098$su4.158@newsfe14.lga...
>
>
>><snip> Only useful when it exceeds the standard deduction. Fewer and
>>fewer are qualifying for the long form.
>>
>>
><snip>
>
>I'm assuming you don't actually mean what you say about qualifying for the
>long form, since anyone who chooses to can file using it. I think your
>implication is that fewer and fewer people qualify for anything exceeding
>the standard deduction. I don't usually ask people for cites to back up this
>type of information, but I'm kind of at a loss where to search for these
>statistics. Would you mind telling me your source--and over what time frame
>is involved in your statistics?
>
>
>
>
>
It's a bit dated and obviously varies significantly by state, but
according to http://www.smbiz.com/sbspec131.html - only about a third
(43,949k / 130,423k) of 2003 returns had itemized taxes (doesn't
include many home owners that don't even file returns - think many
seniors - that would probably lower that level).

== 11 of 11 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 4 2007 1:55 pm
From: "Chloe"

"Lou" <lpogodajr292185@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:fpCdnTRrGIvlLMjanZ2dnUVZ_uevnZ2d@comcast.com...
>
> "clams casino" <PeterGriffin@drunkin-clam.com> wrote in message
> news:M0i5j.67$Fa7.9@newsfe17.lga...
>> I did, however, find the following:
>>
>>
>> "The difference between the short tax form and long tax form is
>> simple.
>>
>> If you use the short form, the government gets your money.
>>
>> If you use the long form, the accountant gets your money."
>
> Ha Ha. Better the accountant. But for most folks, that's an
> exaggeration -
> it's not all that difficult to fill in a few lines on Schedule A.

Yeah, I've never paid a tax preparer a red cent in 30 years of preparing my
own returns. And I've dealt with a lot of schedules and tax questions that
are way more complicated or difficult than Schedule A. It's a no-brainer, or
perhaps that's the description that should be applied to people who'd rather
pay more in taxes than file it.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Any ATT cell phone users here?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/3611a3889da8ef91?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 4 2007 7:57 am
From: me@privacy.net

>Probably the easiest way to go about all this is to find
>a friend who has AT&T service and will let you use their
>SIM card for a moment. Take it out of their phone and put
>it in yours and see if it works. If it does, your phone
>works with the AT&T network. Of course, you'd probably
>want to offer to reimburse the friend for any minutes you've
>used or do it off-peak if they have a plan where they have
>unmetered service at certain times.
>
>You might, for all I know, also be able to go to an AT&T
>store and borrow one of their SIM cards and try it out in
>the store. I'd just tell them that you have a phone that
>you really like a lot and that you want to keep, and you
>want to try it out on their network. They usually have phones
>in the store with SIM cards in them for demo purposes, or at
>least the T-Mobile store does that.

Good idea!

Thanks Logan!

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 4 2007 7:59 am
From: me@privacy.net

> I slipped the AT&T sim card in my wife's new PDA,
>and it worked fine.

Curious.... what OPDA did she get? And how does she
like it so far?

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Date: Tues, Dec 4 2007 8:05 am
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http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/5605b193152534c0?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
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TOPIC: more laptop selection help
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/614f763badc82c6b?hl=en
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== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 4 2007 9:01 am
From: "AllEmailDeletedImmediately"

"John Weiss" <jrweiss@nospamattglobal.net> wrote in message
news:47550579@kcnews03...
> "AllEmailDeletedImmediately" <derjda@hotmail.com> wrote...

thanks john, this will come in handy.

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 4 2007 9:05 am
From: "AllEmailDeletedImmediately"

"Jon v Leipzig" <JVL@myday.com> wrote in message
news:475548AB.5@myday.com...
> AllEmailDeletedImmediately wrote:
snip

> It sounds like you're better off getting a desktop, for now. Much cheaper.
>
> Last I heard, this Vista's been such a flop, they even have a service pack
> 3 in the works, for XP.
>
> (I noticed, at TigerDirect they stilll have em with XP, XP Pro)
>
>
>
> Vista SP1 a Performance Dud
>
> http://exo-blog.blogspot.com/2007/11/vista-sp1-performance-dud.html
>
>
> What Intel Giveth, Microsoft Taketh Away
>
> http://exo-blog.blogspot.com/2007/09/what-intel-giveth-microsoft-taketh-away.html

thanks. i'll trot right over to read this stuff.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 4 2007 1:53 pm
From: Dennis

On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 05:16:55 -0000, gheston@hiwaay.net (Gary Heston)
wrote:

>In article <T0G4j.6343$Lg.2921@trndny09>,
>AllEmailDeletedImmediately <derjda@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>"Gary Heston" <gheston@hiwaay.net> wrote in message
>>news:13l5rhhon7hkt4d@corp.supernews.com...
>>> In article <r8A4j.3888$xB.1301@trndny06>,
>>> AllEmailDeletedImmediately <derjda@hotmail.com> wrote:
> [ ... ]
>
>> do the shops
>>still
>>sell xp? i thought ms was getting ready to stop supporting it.
>
>Due to customer demand (or screaming at the disaster Vista is) most PC
>vendors, such as Dell, are offering XP again.

Microsoft has announced the end of availability of new XP licenses,
but they keep slipping the cutoff date out. First it was Jan '08, but
IIRC, it is now out to mid-2008. I certainly wouldn't rule out the
date slipping even further with sufficient demand from the
marketplace.

>>oh, and now dh is thinking he'd like the laptop to deal with lyric, a
>>graphics
>>manipulating program (he'd prefer final cut pro but he says it usually run
>>on a mac).
>>just threw that at me today. so know i'm really looking at 4+G memory,
>
>Be aware that 32-bit versions of Windows will not address more than 4GB
>of memory. In fact, they can't address a full 4GB. If you need more than
>that, you'll need XP for 64-bit systems and a real 64-bit application.
>

Not strictly true. On hardware that supports it, 32-bit Windows (and
probably other OSes) includes a Physical Address Extension feature
that allows access to more than 4GB of physical address space (how
much varies with the motherboard design). However, a single Windows
process (essentially, application) is still limited to accessing 2GB
of linear address space at a time.

Dennis (evil)
--
I'm a hands-on, footloose, knee-jerk head case. -George Carlin

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http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/5dfb69c8304561b0?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 4 2007 9:17 am
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TOPIC: Mold Manufacturer
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 4 2007 9:35 am
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TOPIC: Free insulation
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 4 2007 10:06 am
From: "Bob F"

"Anthony Matonak" <anthonym40@nothing.like.socal.rr.com> wrote in message
news:47543e03$0$2562$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>A Veteran wrote:
>> Lots of "Popcorn" is available. you know the styrofoam peanuts that are
>> used in packing boxes.
>> Use it to fill cavities and voids in your building. Be cautious as it can
>> burn.
>
> I have heard this idea before and, as I recall, it's a very bad one.
> A quick websearch gave me the reason why. These packing peanuts are
> not treated with fire retardants while normal insulating foam is.
>
> Feel free to try an experiment. Take a small paper lunch bag and
> fill it with packing peanuts. Take another paper bag and fill with
> your favorite building insulation. Light them on fire (stand well
> back) and see which burns fastest. Report on how they compare. :)
>

And don't forget to inhale the smoke, and note which one kills you.

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TOPIC: Discount Handbag Shoes Clothes Wholesale (www.globwholesale.com)
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/ec34b3a15020a646?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 4 2007 10:38 am
From: globwholesale@126.com

Dear my friend
It is our pleasure to meet you here.
we are wholesaler sport shoes,clothing,electrons in Fujian of China.
our website: http://www.globwholesale.com
We are professional and honest wholesaler of all kinds of brand
sneaks and apparel.the products
our company supply are as follows:
1).Nike Jordans
Jordan 1 jordan 1.5 jordan 2 jordan 3 jordan 3.5 jordan 4 jordan 5
jordan 5.5 jordan 6 jordan 6.5 jordan 7 jordan 8 jordan 9 jordan 9.5
jordan 10 jordan 11 jordan 12 jordan 13 jordan 13.5 jordan 14 jordan
15 jordan 16 jordan 17 jordan 18 jordan 18.5 jordan 19 jordan 20
jordan 21 jordan 21.5 jordan 22 jordan King jordan Dub Zero Jordan 23
Jordan 7.5
2).Air Force One Air Force one (low) Air Force one (High) Air Force
one (Mid) Air Force one (clear) Air Force One 25 year
3).SHOX Shox R3 Shox R4 Shox R5 Shox TL1 Shox TL2 Shox TL3 Shox NZ
Shox OZ Shox Turbo Show GO Shox CL Shox Coqnescenti Shox Energia Shox
Explodine Shox Monster Shox Rhythmic Shox Warrior
4).Bape Shoes Bape Bape (transparent)
5).Air max AirMax 90 AirMax 95 AirMax 97 AirMax 2003 AirMax 2004
AirMax 2005 Air Max 2006 AirMax 180 AirMax LTD AirMax TN AirMax solas
AirMax 87 AirMax Rift
6).Puma Puma Rpt2 Puma SK6 Puma Jayfi Puma Cir Puma Speed Puma Repli
Puma Future Cat Puma Mostro Puma Lifestyle
7).Dunk SB Dunk High Dunk Low
8).Timberland Timberland High Timberland Low
9).Adidas Adidas 35 Adicolor Country city sense Adidas NBA
11).Prada & Gucci Prada Gucci
12).Footballer Shoes Footballer
13).Locaste
14).converse & Reebok converse Reebok
15).D&G shoes
16).Dsquared2 shoes
17).James shoes
18).Nike King
9).Children shoes Jordan Shox
20).Women shoes Women Jordans Women Shox R3 Women Shox R4 Women
AirMax
95&97 Women AirMax 03&06 Women Dunk Women Shox NZ Women AF1
21).sandal & baboosh Nike Puma Gucci Prada
CLOTHES 1).Bape 2).ED Hardy 3).BBC 4).CLH 5).LRG 6).Artful Dodger
Hoodies 7).GINO GREEN GLOBAL 8).10 Deep 9).A&F Coat 11).Jersey NBA
Jersey Football Jersey 12).Juicy Bikini 13).Adidas Coat 14).F1 Coat
15).D&G Coat 16).Superman Coat 17).NBA Coat
JEAN 1).E&D Jeans 2).BBC Jeans 3).BAPE Jeans 4).D&G Jeans 5).EVSIU
Jeans 6).Red monkey 7).COOGI Jeans
T-shirt 1).POLO 2007 polo(women) 2007 POLO IIII(Men) POLO (stripe)
polo (small )
2).Lacoste Lacoste (LONG) Lacoste (SHORT) 3).Name Brand shirt D&G
Shirt Giorgio Armani TN Shirt 4).BBC T-shirt 5).LRG & gina green
glalal 6).Triumvir 7).ED handy 8).Evsiu 9).R.M.B 10).CLOT
Burse & Handbag 1).LV Bag 2).Gucci Bag 3).Dior Bag 4).Chanel Bag
5).Fendi Bag 6).Coach Bag 7).Burberrys Bag 8).Prada Bag 9).Man
Leisure
Bag 11).D&G bag 12).nike bag 13).Wallet 14).Suitcase
Electronics 1).Vertu Mobile 2).New iphone Mobile 3).Nokia Mobile
4).moto Mobile 5).PSP Game & memory card 6).Sony Mobile 7).Samsung
Mobile 8).Ipod nano 9).Sony PS3 10).Laptops IBM laptops DELL laptops
Sony laptops ASUS laptops
CAP 1).ED Hardy Cap 2).New Bape & NY Cap 3).RMC Cap 4).New era NBA
5).F1 6).Chanel 7).D&G 8).gucci 9).LV 10).Prada 11).PUMA 12).wool
WATCH 1).Rolex 2).Omega 3).Cartier 4).Chanel 5).Piaget 6).Breitling
7).Bvlgari 8).Corum
Sunglasses 1).Gucci Sunglasses 2).D&G Sunglasses 3).Dior Sunglasses
4).LV Sunglasses 5).Chanel Sunglasses 6).Prada Sunglasses 7).Versace
Sunglasses 8).Giorgio Armani
Strap 1).Bape Strap 2).D&G Strap 3).Gucci Strap 4).LV Strap 5).Scarf
Other 1).Lighter

size chart
Men Size:
US: 7 8 8.5 9 9.5 10 10.5 11 11.5 12 13 14 15
UK: 6 7 7.5 8 8.5 9 9.5 10 10.5 11 12 13 14
EUR: 40 41 42 42.5 43 44 44.5 45 45.5 46 47.5 48 49
Women Size:
US: 5 5.5 6 6.5 7 7.5 8 8.5
UK: 2.5 3 3.5 4 4.5 5 5.5 6
EUR: 35.5 36 36.5 37.5 38 38.5 39 40

Kid's
US: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 7.5 8 8.5 9 9.5 10 10.5 11 11.5 12 12.5 13 13.5
UK: 13 1 2 3 4 5 6 6.5 7 7.5 8 8.5 9 9.5 10 10.5 11 11.5 12 12.5
EUR:17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 24.5 25 25.5 26 26.5 27 27.5 28 29 30
30.5
31

Clothing Size:
S M L XL XXL XXXL XXXXL XXXXXL

7.because the space of the website is limited,we can also supply many
other products which be not showed out in our site. if you have the
photos of the products you need , we are pleasure to supply for your
orders.
And our company can supply for our customers ,as follow:
1. top quality.all our products have top quality.
2. most rational price. we offer the most competitive price to you
to
open your market. So today most of our products have sold well in the
America, Europe, Middle East, Southeast Asia etc..
3. safe and fast shipment. As different country you are in, we will
deliver the products to you by different ways and pledge to arrive to
your address 100%.and we will send the products to you within 24h
after we get your payment.
4.many products in stock. We have many products in stock and kinds of
size you need , also include kid's.
5.our credit. If the products can be not delivered to your address as
our reason, we will refund the money you paid.
Hope sincerely to have glad and long term business relationship with
you.
If you are interested in our products and have any problem, welcome
to
contact us.
Please trust us , we will be your best choice !!!

Website : http://www.globwholesale.com
Yahoo ID:globwholesale@yahoo.com.cn
Michael
Fashion Footwear Industrial Co.,Ltd.(Fujian,CHINA)

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TOPIC: buy shop price cheap air nike jordan adidas www.netfashion2008.cn
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/c280fb94326d6bf1?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 4 2007 10:45 am
From: xiaoshifeng010@gmail.com

(www.netfashion2008.cn )professionally wholesale sports shoes from
china,main product including:Footwear-sneakers series
(nike,puma,adidas,Jordan 1-24,nike max,nike shox,nike dunk,nike
kobe,nike rift,bapesta,timberland
boot,D&G,dsquqred,LV,prada,icecream,NBA,lacoste shoes,ect).,T-
shirts,jeans,hootdies/clothes series.,Sandal slippers series.,Leather
belt series.,Handbags series.,Purse series.,Sunglasses,the sun hats/
cap series.,etc.In the short several years, the company by the most
preferential price, the first-class quality, the first-class
service,the first-class security transportation, receives the domestic
and foreign customers welcome. Product best-selling Europe and
America,france, Southeast Asia, Russia, South Africa, country and area
and so on.
Welcome u coming to business with us !!!
Our msn:netfashion2008@hotmail.com
Our website:http://www.netfashion2008.cn

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TOPIC: Christ in Islam
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/06c4482e668dd598?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 4 2007 11:25 am
From: "Rod Speed"

George <george@nospam.invalid> wrote
> Rod Speed wrote
>> George <george@nospam.invalid> wrote
>>> 231 wrote
>>>> George <george@nospam.invalid> wrote
>>>>> 231 wrote
>>>>>> AllEmailDeletedImmediately <derjda@hotmail.com> wrote

>>>>>>> here's what i know:

>>>>>> Nope.

>>>>>>> my God has a Son name Christ Jesus.

>>>>>> You dont know that.

>>>>> But since a negative can never be proved

>>>> That is just plain wrong. I can trivially prove that
>>>> there is no gigantic pink elephant in this room.

>>> I know atheists like to declare that basic science and rules of logic are invalid

>> Didnt do that. I JUST rubbed your nose in the FACT that that
>> claim that you can never prove a negative is just plain wrong.

> I do understand that some people have limited or no imagination or
> exposure to science so they only believe things they know or can touch.

And plenty have more professional exposure to science and
better qualifications in it than you do and realise that there is
a lot more than just what they know or can touch involved.

>>> but there is always the possibility that you are unable to observe something that may be there.

>> And that possibility can be eliminated by using a number of ways
>> of measuring if there is a gigantic pink elephant in the room.

> But unless you are making the claim that you are omniscient you can't possibly know every method.

You dont have to know every method to use a number of
methods and when every single one you try shows that there
is no gigantic pink elephant in the room, you have indeed
proved that there is gigantic pink elephant in the room.

The fact that there may also be other ways of proving that
there is no gigantic pink elephant in the room is irrelevant.

> If you don't know every possible method then you can't definitively say there is nothing.

Wrong, ALL you need is to to use a number of methods that
show that there is no gigantic pink elephant in the room to
prove that there is no gigantic pink elephant in the room.

Its perfectly possible to prove that the earth is not flat too.

>>> You can only make an assertion that a "giant pink elephant" defined
>>> as you know it isn't there.

>> Wrong again. You can measure whether the gigantic pink elephant is there or not.

>>> You can never prove that there isn't a giant pink elephant in the room.

>> You can assert that until you are blue in the face, changes nothing.

>>>>> how do you know?
>>>> How do I know what ?

>>>>>>> islam's god does not.

>>>>>> Its the same god, stupid.

>>>>>>> therefore they cannot be the same god

>>>>>> Or it is the same god and its devotees cant get the basics right.

>>>>>>> and they are not, no matter how hard islam tries to horn in and claim it as so.

>>>>>> Just as true of the stupid xtians.

>>>>>>> allah IS NOT the same god as the God of the hebrew and christians.

>>>>>> Easy to claim. Hell of a lot harder to actually substantiate that claim. In spades that there is any 'god' at
>>>>>> all.

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TOPIC: New Shoes Handbags Purses Boots Jeans Hoody T-shirts MP3 Wholesale
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/cefb4411d98a8773?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 4 2007 12:20 pm
From: globwholesale15@126.com

Clothing Size:
S M L XL XXL XXXL XXXXL XXXXXL

Website : http://www.globwholesale.com
Yahoo ID:globwholesale@yahoo.com.cn
Michael
Fashion Footwear Industrial Co.,Ltd.(Fujian,CHINA)

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