Frugal Living: Dec 15, 2008

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

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Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Do not purchase a new Big 3 vehicle in 2009.
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/8da7acb0e572db51?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 17 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 14 2008 11:29 pm
From: hc23hc1@mac.com

edward ohare wrote:
>
> Don't buy a Big 3 vehicle in 2009?
>
> Why not? They'll be real cheap at the bankruptcy sale.

The Big 3 aren't in the business of selling cars. They're in the
business of reneging on contracts they made with the people working
for them. What the Big 3 produce is automotive cancer. What the Big
3 sell to the American public are crippling financial obligations to
make payments for rapidly-decaying pieces of worthless junk which wind
up being expensive at any price.

Not even after Bush Senior nose-dived into their Premier's lap ten
years ago would Japanese people buy Big 3 cars. Nor would any sane
person, now, anywhere in the world.

.
.
.

== 2 of 17 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 15 2008 1:48 am
From: Darkangel de la Louisiane

Dave Head wrote:
> On Sun, 14 Dec 2008 21:12:31 -0500, Marsha <mas@xeb.net> wrote:
> Oh, please... you wait for a conversation like this to come up with that? What
> about the option to buy the car you really want to buy? Can't do that, eh? I
> want one without and air bag and without antilock brakes and without the heavy
> safety stuff and, starting in 2012 I want to buy them without antilock brakes
> and without stability control. I can't / won't be able to buy any of those
> cars.
>
> Hell, I want to buy a '69 Corvette Stingray with 427, 4-speed and a 4.11 rear
> gear, with a great big filler neck in the center of the rear deck that accepts
> highly leaded, high octane gas and is so damn fast it scares you just starting
> it. That's what I want to buy.
>
> But I can't...

Big whoop. I want something with manual /everything/ (windows, locks,
transmission, steering), gets 50 miles to the gallon at LEAST, and comes
with a god damned /tape deck/.

Good thing I have all that (except the gas mileage, and it comes pretty
close) and more with my 1987 Civic.

== 3 of 17 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 15 2008 2:09 am
From: Dave Head

On Mon, 15 Dec 2008 06:24:45 +0000 (UTC), Brent
<tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On 2008-12-15, Dave Head <rally2xs@att.net> wrote:
>> On Sun, 14 Dec 2008 20:31:32 -0800, Steve Daniels <sdaniels@gorge.net> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sat, 13 Dec 2008 16:13:54 -0800 (PST), against all advice,
>>>something compelled lorad <lorad474@cs.com>, to say:
>>>
>>>> Rather than sending your dollars to Tokyo or Seoul, try to help your
>>>> neighbors and yourself by buying a US made automobile.
>>>
>>>As soon as they build one as cool as my Audi, I'll be glad to.
>>
>> I never thought Audis were all that cool, and they broke a lot, and were
>> hideously expensive to fix.
>>
>> Case in point - friend had his oil cooler leak. Shouldn't be any big deal,
>> right - just replace the damn thing. But nooooo... these geniuses from Germany
>> didn't make the oil cooler be a set of tubes and fins in front or behind the
>> radiator, they made it be a box that has oil in tubes going through the
>> coolant.
>
>> Well, now, when the damned oil leaked, it leaked into the coolant, and what's
>> worse, the COOLANT LEAKED INTO THE OIL!!!!!
>
>this doesn't make sense. Either the oil pressure or the coolant pressure
>should be higher than the other making the leak one way.

Depends on whether the engine's running and he has oil pressure, eh?

>I would think
>oil would have gone into the coolant and very little if any coolant got
>into the oil.

Everything was all over everywhere, I understand.

>
>> Well, he tried to get it fixed, and the Audi dealer said no, the water in the
>> oil system had ruined the engine, and in order to fix it, he would have to
>> replace the engine and some other parts that had oily water in them but were
>> external to the engine.
>
>Dealers like to say stuff like that.

Yeah, that's what I told him...

>> He ended up trading it on a new Audi for $4K, while the vehicle itself, if it
>> had been running OK, was a blue book value of $16K.
>
>Because they can do stuff like that and profit.

Yep...

>That car was fixed for little $$ and put on their used lot and sold at a
>big profit.

More'n likely

== 4 of 17 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 15 2008 3:43 am
From: Eeyore

lorad wrote:

> On Dec 13, 7:20 am, wis...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> Asian auto-maker propaganda [snipped]
>
> Rather than sending your dollars to Tokyo or Seoul, try to help your
> neighbors and yourself by buying a US made automobile. As is well
> known.. keeping one dollar in your local economy, generates even more
> dollars as that money recirculates creating compounded wealth.
>
> The PRIMARY reason that the US economy is failing is due to the
> reduction of US manufacturing capability which results in fewer
> exports and more imports over the last 15 years.
> The US's wealth has been drained away.

It's called 'globalisation' and you lot started it. It gives you $50 DVD
players you'd never have otherwise etc etc. You can't stop it now.

Graham

== 5 of 17 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 15 2008 3:48 am
From: clams_casino

Harold Burton wrote:

>In article
><73cbc8d4-c09e-415f-96d1-3c06766009d3@s9g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
> lorad <lorad474@cs.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>>Alan Baker wrote:
>>
>>
>>>In article
>>><4c6caec7-939e-4297-8cf5-0f84e0ea25b8@s1g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
>>> lorad <lorad474@cs.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>On Dec 13, 3:57?pm, clams_casino <PeterGrif...@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Brent wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Track record? What is the track record? It's a series of people's
>>>>>>perceptions. Try to get someone who got a honda lemon to buy one again.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>Don't know of any. ? I do, however, know many who will likely never
>>>>>again consider a GM product.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>And I know manay who just love their US made cars and would never buy
>>>>asian crap.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>That doesn't make them (or you) rational.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>Of course it does.. they would rather buy less expensive american cars
>>to keep America wealthy, than pay more for over-priced foreign crap to
>>make America poor.
>>
>>
>
>
>
>Ya got it backwards, fool, it's Ford, GM, and Chrsyler who are selling
>overpriced cars, not selling them, actually, it's why they're whining.
>
>
>snicker.
>
>
and while Ford & GM are importing more and more cars & parts, Honda,
Toyota, etc are continuing to build more plants in the US.

== 6 of 17 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 15 2008 3:52 am
From: Nate Nagel

Dave Head wrote:
> On Sun, 14 Dec 2008 20:31:32 -0800, Steve Daniels <sdaniels@gorge.net> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 13 Dec 2008 16:13:54 -0800 (PST), against all advice,
>> something compelled lorad <lorad474@cs.com>, to say:
>>
>>> Rather than sending your dollars to Tokyo or Seoul, try to help your
>>> neighbors and yourself by buying a US made automobile.
>> As soon as they build one as cool as my Audi, I'll be glad to.
>
> I never thought Audis were all that cool, and they broke a lot, and were
> hideously expensive to fix.
>
> Case in point - friend had his oil cooler leak. Shouldn't be any big deal,
> right - just replace the damn thing. But nooooo... these geniuses from Germany
> didn't make the oil cooler be a set of tubes and fins in front or behind the
> radiator, they made it be a box that has oil in tubes going through the
> coolant.
>
> Well, now, when the damned oil leaked, it leaked into the coolant, and what's
> worse, the COOLANT LEAKED INTO THE OIL!!!!!
>
> Well, he tried to get it fixed, and the Audi dealer said no, the water in the
> oil system had ruined the engine, and in order to fix it, he would have to
> replace the engine and some other parts that had oily water in them but were
> external to the engine.
>
> He ended up trading it on a new Audi for $4K, while the vehicle itself, if it
> had been running OK, was a blue book value of $16K.
>
> An oil/water heat exchanger???? What were they THINKING???? Gaaaaa....
>

To be fair, it makes a lot of sense. don't need any thermostat when you
do that, it's a simpler setup.... SO LONG AS it doesn't leak.

Lots of older VWs had oil to water coolers and they were somewhat leak
prone, sounds like someone got the shaft, usually if you just replaced
the cooler, flushed the cooling system, and changed the oil you'd be
fine. usually the oil leaked into the coolant and not the other way
around. (think about it - oil pressure is anywhere from 20 to 80 PSI;
coolant is regulated at 13 PSI)

I bet someone got a good deal on a used Audi...

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

== 7 of 17 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 15 2008 4:02 am
From: clams_casino

lorad wrote:

>On Dec 14, 2:24 pm, Alan Baker <alangba...@telus.net> wrote:
>
>
>>In article <b0r9k4l04n8fleoqds62m9s749ida9k...@4ax.com>,
>> Dave Head <rally...@att.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>On Sun, 14 Dec 2008 06:16:00 -0500, necromancer
>>><55_sux@worldofnecromancer_NO-SPAM_NO-WAY.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>On Sat, 13 Dec 2008 16:13:54 -0800 (PST), lorad <lorad...@cs.com>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Rather than sending your dollars to Tokyo or Seoul, try to help your
>>>>>neighbors and yourself by buying a US made automobile. As is well
>>>>>known.. keeping one dollar in your local economy, generates even more
>>>>>dollars as that money recirculates creating compounded wealth.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>Kia is spending US$1.2 Billion of its own money (not DC bailout,
>>>>"loans," that the big 3 are asking for) to bulid a major manufacturing
>>>>facility in West Point, GA that is estimated to employ up to 6000 of
>>>>my neighbors. This a few years after FORD bailed out of Georgia by
>>>>closing its Atlanta assembly line.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Yeah, and the money made there is going right back to Korea. Talk about
>>>myopia.
>>>
>>>
>>Really. The money earned by those 6000 people goes back to Korea, does
>>it? The money made by all the local suppliers goes back to Korea, does
>>it?
>>
>>LOL
>>
>>
>
>Of course not...
>Just the PROFITS go back to asia.. to build their capital resources
>there - not here.
>
>
>
>
Considering GM, Ford & Chrysler haven't made a profit in the US in some
time.....

Personally, I favor US jobs (Honda, Toyota, Nissan, etc) and taxes on
profits vs. after tax corporate profits.

9 Million Accords made in the US over 25 years with another 1800
vehicles daily... just in Marysville where 80 percent of all Honda and
Acura vehicles sold in America are built at one of Honda's six auto
plants in North America..

== 8 of 17 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 15 2008 4:07 am
From: clams_casino

clams_casino wrote:

> lorad wrote:
>
>> On Dec 14, 2:24 pm, Alan Baker <alangba...@telus.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> In article <b0r9k4l04n8fleoqds62m9s749ida9k...@4ax.com>,
>>> Dave Head <rally...@att.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Sun, 14 Dec 2008 06:16:00 -0500, necromancer
>>>> <55_sux@worldofnecromancer_NO-SPAM_NO-WAY.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, 13 Dec 2008 16:13:54 -0800 (PST), lorad <lorad...@cs.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Rather than sending your dollars to Tokyo or Seoul, try to help your
>>>>>> neighbors and yourself by buying a US made automobile. As is well
>>>>>> known.. keeping one dollar in your local economy, generates even
>>>>>> more
>>>>>> dollars as that money recirculates creating compounded wealth.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Kia is spending US$1.2 Billion of its own money (not DC bailout,
>>>>> "loans," that the big 3 are asking for) to bulid a major
>>>>> manufacturing
>>>>> facility in West Point, GA that is estimated to employ up to 6000 of
>>>>> my neighbors. This a few years after FORD bailed out of Georgia by
>>>>> closing its Atlanta assembly line.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yeah, and the money made there is going right back to Korea. Talk
>>>> about
>>>> myopia.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Really. The money earned by those 6000 people goes back to Korea, does
>>> it? The money made by all the local suppliers goes back to Korea, does
>>> it?
>>>
>>> LOL
>>>
>>
>>
>> Of course not...
>> Just the PROFITS go back to asia.. to build their capital resources
>> there - not here.
>>
>>
>>
>>
> Considering GM, Ford & Chrysler haven't made a profit in the US in
> some time.....
>
> Personally, I favor US jobs (Honda, Toyota, Nissan, etc) and taxes on
> profits vs. after tax corporate profits.
>
> 9 Million Accords made in the US over 25 years with another 1800
> vehicles daily... just in Marysville where 80 percent of all Honda and
> Acura vehicles sold in America are built at one of Honda's six auto
> plants in North America..

"Honda operates six auto plants in North America and a seventh, located
in Indiana, will begin operations in fall 2008. The additional
production of 200,000 Civics per year at that plant will help boost
Honda's total North American automobile production capacity to more than
1.6 million units in 2008, employment in North America to more than
37,000 associates and capital investment in North America to more than
$9 billion. Honda annually purchases more than $17.6 billion in parts
and materials from U.S. suppliers."

== 9 of 17 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 15 2008 4:09 am
From: Ken

Steve Daniels <sdaniels@gorge.net> wrote in
news:pbnbk4p9rkp13l855rnnlp2i9n301loakg@4ax.com:

> On Sat, 13 Dec 2008 16:13:54 -0800 (PST), against all advice,
> something compelled lorad <lorad474@cs.com>, to say:
>
>> Rather than sending your dollars to Tokyo or Seoul, try
>> to help your neighbors and yourself by buying a US made
>> automobile.

> As soon as they build one as cool as my Audi, I'll be glad to.

Or reliable as my Honda.

__
snipped politics groups

== 10 of 17 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 15 2008 4:17 am
From: "Dave"

>>When the government gives a corporation a handout,
>>that really is theft from all the taxpayers who don't think they deserve
>>it.
>
> The taxpayers haven't quite thought this through yet, and don't have a
> clue how
> bad things are going to get if we lose that much manufacturing capability.

Y'know, more than anything else, it is this "we know what's best for you
better than YOU do" attitude that REALLY pisses off the taxpayers. There's
a damned good reason that the taxpayers were opposed to the original "700
Billion dollar" bank bailout measure (somewhere in the neighborhood of a
thousand to one opposed to it), and there's even BETTER reason that the
taxpayers are opposed to the various automaker bailout plans.

The average taxpayer understands that...
1) GM can not be saved without Chapter 11 (Same probably goes for
Chrysler)
2) GM is opposed to Chapter 11, saying it's the same as Chapter 7 (and GM
could be right on that)
3) Given 1 and 2 above, GM is doomed to Chapter 7 LIQUIDATION. GM will
cease to exist, SOON.
4) Given 1, 2, and 3 above, there is no GOOD reason to give a single penny
to GM. If we were to give GM a FIVE DOLLAR bailout package or "bridge loan"
(aka bailout) right now, we wouldn't get that money back.

There are some people who believe that GM and Chrysler can be saved somehow.
But most have figured out that GM and Chrysler are going under, no matter
what we do. And many, many jobs are going to be lost, no matter what we do.
So the TAXPAYERS believe the best policy is not to waste many billions of
dollars trying to stop the inevitable. There is no GOOD way out of this
mess. Many jobs are going to be lost. Only question is, how much money are
we going to WASTE trying to prevent it?

SOME people in the Senate (Democrats AND Republicans) have figured that out,
also. That's why they stopped the bailout measure for the automakers.
Unfortunately, the outgoing President doesn't need to worry about
re-election and has the authority to throw away billions of dollars trying
to save GM and Chrysler. So our money (borrowed from China) is probably
going to be wasted on GM and Chrysler anyway. -Dave

== 11 of 17 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 15 2008 4:27 am
From: "Dave"

>>
>>American cars are shit, plain and simple, and the companies that make
>>them deserve to fail.
>
> In Germany, we noticed that even the taxis were Mercedes.
>
> DCI

When I was living overseas, I was surprised (why???) to note that the large
Buses were Mercedes. :) -Dave

== 12 of 17 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 15 2008 4:54 am
From: Dave Head

On Dec 15, 7:17 am, "Dave" <no...@nohow.not> wrote:
> >>When the government gives a corporation a handout,
> >>that really is theft from all the taxpayers who don't think they deserve
> >>it.
>
> > The taxpayers haven't quite thought this through yet, and don't have a
> > clue how
> > bad things are going to get if we lose that much manufacturing capability.
>
> Y'know, more than anything else, it is this "we know what's best for you
> better than YOU do" attitude that REALLY pisses off the taxpayers. There's
> a damned good reason that the taxpayers were opposed to the original "700
> Billion dollar" bank bailout measure (somewhere in the neighborhood of a
> thousand to one opposed to it), and there's even BETTER reason that the
> taxpayers are opposed to the various automaker bailout plans.
>
> The average taxpayer understands that...
> 1) GM can not be saved without Chapter 11 (Same probably goes for
> Chrysler)

Well, the average taxpayer doesn't understand (and apparently you
don't either) that Ch 11 absolutely will not work for a manufacturer
that builds high-priced products that have warranties and require
servicing, repair parts, etc. Why? Because there aren't enough
buyers stupid enough, or with cajomes big enough, to buy such a thing
that may see their source of repair parts, and their warranty
servicer, go away if the ch 11 fails. Ch 11's sometimes fail.
There's no cure for that. And... such a manufactuer's net income is
going to be essentially $0.00 as soon as he declares ANY sort of
bankruptcy.

> 2) GM is opposed to Chapter 11, saying it's the same as Chapter 7 (and GM
> could be right on that)

They are definitely right on that. They probably won't sell 3 cars
after they declare any sort of bankruptcy.

> 3) Given 1 and 2 above, GM is doomed to Chapter 7 LIQUIDATION. GM will
> cease to exist, SOON.

Not if the US Gov't guarantees their loan.

> 4) Given 1, 2, and 3 above, there is no GOOD reason to give a single penny
> to GM. If we were to give GM a FIVE DOLLAR bailout package or "bridge loan"
> (aka bailout) right now, we wouldn't get that money back.

If we don't, we're going to SUFFER with a capital "S". The failure of
GM, Chrysler, and eventually Ford will throw this country into a full-
blown depression. You're never going to convince me that we can't
save our manufacturing sector unless you try it and it actually
fails. Giving up at the outset is a non-starter with me, and should
be with any "can-do" attitude American. Hell, we wouldn't even have
entered WW2 with such an attitude. We'd probably be speaking German
and Japanese about now with such an attitude.

> There are some people who believe that GM and Chrysler can be saved somehow.
> But most have figured out that GM and Chrysler are going under, no matter
> what we do. And many, many jobs are going to be lost, no matter what we do.
> So the TAXPAYERS believe the best policy is not to waste many billions of
> dollars trying to stop the inevitable. There is no GOOD way out of this
> mess. Many jobs are going to be lost. Only question is, how much money are
> we going to WASTE trying to prevent it?

It isn't going to be a waste. The Big-3 make GOOD cars now, and it
only takes a bit more before they get to the point that they have the
very desireable cars we need for the future - hybrids (GM has 12
coming soon) electric cars (GM has I think 2 or 3 in the works, the
1st being the Chevy Volt), and Chrysler revealed that it has had such
an electric car program in the works for quite some time now, only
they simply have kept it a secret up until about 3 weeks ago.

> SOME people in the Senate (Democrats AND Republicans) have figured that out,
> also. That's why they stopped the bailout measure for the automakers.

Naw, that was just the Republicans thinking they have an opportunity
to break the unions. They live for screwing the working class
person...

> Unfortunately, the outgoing President doesn't need to worry about
> re-election and has the authority to throw away billions of dollars trying
> to save GM and Chrysler. So our money (borrowed from China) is probably
> going to be wasted on GM and Chrysler anyway. -Dave

I don't think it will be wasted, and the alternative of having no car
manufacturers in the country (AMERICAN car manufactueres - don't give
me this garbage about Kia and Honda, etc. - they do not work in this
Nation's interest - they work in Japans and Korea's interest) will
likely be a less-than-1st-world Nation. We may not resemble Zimbabwe,
but we will likely resemble something only a cut or 2 above that...

== 13 of 17 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 15 2008 6:11 am
From: "Dave"

>> 3) Given 1 and 2 above, GM is doomed to Chapter 7 LIQUIDATION. GM will
>> cease to exist, SOON.

>Not if the US Gov't guarantees their loan.

A loan from the U.S. government might delay Chapter 7 LIQUIDATION, but it
will not stop it. GM and Chrysler will fail. It's not a matter of IF, but
when.

>> 4) Given 1, 2, and 3 above, there is no GOOD reason to give a single
>> penny
>> to GM. If we were to give GM a FIVE DOLLAR bailout package or "bridge
>> loan"
>> (aka bailout) right now, we wouldn't get that money back.

>If we don't, we're going to SUFFER with a capital "S".

No matter what happens, we're going to SUFFER with a capital "S".

> The failure of
>GM, Chrysler, and eventually Ford will throw this country into a full-
>blown depression.

We're already in a full-blown depression. Unemployment has been
mis-represented (ahem) as close to 7% when the actual rate (including
discouraged workers) is about 17%. That's DEPRESSION, not recession.

> You're never going to convince me that we can't
> save our manufacturing sector unless you try it and it actually
> fails.

The problem is, if we can save GM and Chrysler, then apparently "we" know
something that the auto execs. do not. GM in particular can not ever be
self-sustaining without slashing overhead (read: retiree benefits in
particular) that can not be slashed without busting the current union
contracts. The union contracts can not be nixed without bankruptcy. The
auto execs. are on record stating that Chapter 11 equals chapter 7
Liquidation. In other words, GM and Chrysler are going to fail, and there's
not a damned thing we can do to stop it.

> Giving up at the outset is a non-starter with me, and should
>be with any "can-do" attitude American.

I generally agree with that sentiment, if I thought there was something that
could be done, to actually HELP. The only thing that will help (possibly)
is bankruptcy. But the auto execs. say that will lead to Chapter 7
liquidation. So...knowing that the companies are going to be liquidated, it
will do no good at all (and will actually harm the economy WORSE) to throw
money at them.

> Hell, we wouldn't even have
> entered WW2 with such an attitude. We'd probably be speaking German
> and Japanese about now with such an attitude.

If only this automaker problem could be solved as easily as rallying the
troops...
Heck, if it was that easy, I'd fucking re-enlist! Well, I think I'm too old
now. But if I could, I would.

>It isn't going to be a waste. The Big-3 make GOOD cars now, and it
>only takes a bit more before they get to the point that they have the
>very desireable cars we need for the future - hybrids (GM has 12
>coming soon) electric cars (GM has I think 2 or 3 in the works, the

(snip)

GM and Chrysler could design the BEST cars in the world, and it wouldn't
matter. Car buyers make buying decisions based on PERCEIVED value. The
Japs and Koreans have a stranglehold on PERCEIVED value. The Malibu in
particular is every bit as nice as any Camry or Accord (in spite of what
certain domestic brand haters will say), but it doesn't matter. The
PERCEIVED value of the Camry and Accord is higher. GM and Chrysler can't
undo the "rep." that they spent decades earning, in the span of a few weeks.
(which is what it would take)

Or put another way... do you think it will help the economy to throw $5
BILLION a month at GM over the next 20 or 30 years, in the hopes that GM
will somehow manage to win the PERCEIVED value war with the Japs and
Koreans? Even if GM were to do everything right, they'd still need Billions
of dollars a month to stay afloat. And it would take decades to turn GM
around, IF it can even be done. (which is very unlikely)

>> SOME people in the Senate (Democrats AND Republicans) have figured that
>> out,
>> also. That's why they stopped the bailout measure for the automakers.

>Naw, that was just the Republicans thinking they have an opportunity
>to break the unions. They live for screwing the working class
>person...

Ummm, as has been pointed out numerous times, the Democrats have the
majority in the Senate. And on the auto bailout plan in particular, there
were Republicans who voted FOR it, and Democrats who voted AGAINST it.

>> Unfortunately, the outgoing President doesn't need to worry about
>> re-election and has the authority to throw away billions of dollars
>> trying
>> to save GM and Chrysler. So our money (borrowed from China) is probably
>> going to be wasted on GM and Chrysler anyway. -Dave

>I don't think it will be wasted, and the alternative of having no car
>manufacturers in the country (AMERICAN car manufactueres - don't give
>me this garbage about Kia and Honda, etc. - they do not work in this
>Nation's interest - they work in Japans and Korea's interest) will
>likely be a less-than-1st-world Nation. We may not resemble Zimbabwe,
>but we will likely resemble something only a cut or 2 above that...

That's pure bullshit scare tactics. In the worst case scenario, GM goes
under, Chrysler is bought out by ummm, Toyota perhaps? A few hundred
thousand more people are unemployed (on top of many millions now). When the
economy turns around, Ford and Toyota will have a greater market share of
all vehicles. Many thousands of jobs will be created in the U.S. to build
cars and trucks that aren't being built now. More Toyotas and Fords (for
example) will be built by U.S. automakers in U.S. factories to replace the
vehicles that are NOT being built by GM or Chrysler. -Dave

== 14 of 17 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 15 2008 7:17 am
From: bob zee

On Dec 13, 2:16 pm, Brent <tetraethylleadREMOVET...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 2008-12-13, clams_casino <PeterGrif...@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:
>
> > Not at all. In other words, there's really no way to know if today's
> > Malibus are equal to the quality of today's Accords without waiting 20
> > years.
>
> Neither car has been made for 20 years.
>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_Accord

== 15 of 17 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 15 2008 7:20 am
From: "Rod Speed"

Dave Head wrote
> edward ohare <edward_ohare@nospam.yahoo.com.invalid> wrote
>> Daniel T. <daniel_t@earthlink.net> wrote

>>>> I have seen this thought several times and need to point out that
>>>> GM etc in bankruptcy reorganizations are **not** like the airlines.
>>>> Airline tickets have a short expected useful life, no need for a
>>>> supply of repair parts, no need for a warranty, no concern for
>>>> resale value, and cost comparatively little. People know
>>>> reorganization sometimes often does not work and because of the
>>>> issues I've identified, bankruptcy reorganization **does not** work
>>>> for manufacturers of duable goods.

>>>> Wagoner has said bankruptcy is not an option. He's right. But I
>>>> also think that faced with that as the only choice, he'll try it...
>>>> one idiotic last roll of the dice.

>>> Well, repair parts will be manufactured as long as the need exists,

>> That is correct but most people think that isn't the case.
>> So the idea they can't get parts will keep them away.

> No, I think that is not correct in the cases of things that require large foundaries to build.

You dont usually need to replace the stuff that comes out of those even with those steaming turds with wheels.

> Also a possible bottleneck might be computers. I think the engine control software
> is a trade secret. We might or might not ever be able to get that out of them

Someone would buy that stuff when they go bankrupt.

> and be able to recreate the engine control computers necessary
> for the car to run, _and_ meet emissions standards.

Shouldnt be that hard for the operation that buys that stuff when it goes bankrupt.

>>> and resale value has little/nothing to do with whether the company exists.

>> Have to disagree here. For starters, there will be little if any
>> financing available. Default setting for a bank is going to be "we
>> don't loan money on those". That will necessariy drive prices down.

> Public perception will be that owning an orphan car will be a hassle
> that few people want to put up with, so there will always be a far
> greater supply of used cars for sale than there will be buyers for
> them. That situation always dictates really low prices.

Yep. We've seen that happen with previous auto industry bankruptcys.

>>> So if the warranty was guaranteed by the government?

>> Actually that's the best thing the government could do because it
>> would encourage sales. Our wonderful elected officials can't figure
>> out that no amount of money they throw at the companies will save
>> them unless people buy the cars.

>> They ought to announce this as part of whatever it is they're going
>> to do (if anything) rather than after the fact saying "oh, OK, GM's
>> gone, we'll cover your warranties because we feel sorry for you.

>>> But even so, do you then think that if they go bankrupt, that is "lost"?
>>> As in the moment they go bankrupt, we will loose 1/7th of our jobs?

> I think it will create an economic depression that will last a time-span that nobody can predict.

I doubt it, essentially because someone has to make cars and there
is already quite a bit of car manufacturing in the US outside the big 3.

> It might go as long as the last one. It might be permanent. No, really.

Not a chance.

> There's nothing that says that the USA has to have a healthy economy.

Yes, but its still where the full commercialisation of almost all technology happens
first, most obviously with the PC, PC software, the net, ebay, paypal, google, the
human genome project etc etc etc, even stupid shoes and crap like that.

> There can always be a worse scenario, and the economy only recovering
> to the level of, say, -- well, I'm not sure - probably not a 3rd world country,

No probably not about it, nothing even remotely resembling anything like that.

> but we might not rise much above that without auto manfacturing,

Oh bullshit. Even if all the Big 3 went bust, and that isnt going to happen for Ford
if GM goes bust, there is still the US manufacturing by the Japs and Koreans etc.

> especially if something also happens to agriculture.

Taint gunna happen. Thats one area where the US will always have a natural
advantage over tiny little places like Japan that cant ever compete,

Even if the price of oil goes thru the roof, everyone still has to eat.

> And, of course, that is already on the schedule, as the Ogilala
> aquifer is being drained for irrigation, and will run out someday.
> Good luck finding a substitute fresh water supply to do irrigation,

Most food isnt produced by irrigation. And we are still seeing magnificent
advances in technology there, most obviously most recently with GM technology.

> and getting it there if you do find one. WIth both autos and agriculture
> hit, then yes, we could sink to the level of Zimbabwe or some-such.

Nope, not even possible. Essentially because the US
will always have a natural advantage with agriculture.

Thats one area where China may well have a real problem, if only because of the
massively higher population on a similar area of agricultural land. Japan in spades.

>> I didn't put that number out.

>> As is often the case, though, people add but don't subtract, subtract
>> but don't add. The assumption in all lost employment figures I see
>> is that none of the cars that would have been sold by GM will be
>> sold by anyone. This is clearly and obviously incorrect.

>> Somebody has to go because the industry is overcapacity even during
>> good times. The problem is that if they all go at once then the
>> industry is undercapacity even for current times. And its grossly
>> undercapacity for trucks and vans... even when you take out the
>> people who have been buying personal use trucks that aren't going to
>> do that in the near future.

>> I have written my Representative and Senators telling them
>> they can't save them all and they will need to pick a company
>> or two. But that's too hot a decision for them.

And they wont be taking any notice of anything in a letter to them anyway.

If you seriously believe that someone will be running into some
congresscritter's office waving your letter when they get it...

> We should tell them to do everything they can to
> save and improve the AMERICAN car companies,

Not even possible. If it was, someone would have spelt that out by now.

The only thing that makes any sense at all is to continue to have the detail
that makes it viable for Jap and Korean manufacturers to assemble in the US.

At least they do have a clue about what sort of cars to produce.

The VERY fundamental problem the big 3 have is that what they got monstered into
providing benefits wise means that their operations can never be viable now with
such a massive overhang of all those who used to once 'work' for them in the past.

THATS the reason the Japs and Koreans can assemble cars in the US and still make money.

> and if some company has to leave the market, my choice is Suzuki

Taint gunna happen, because they have had enough of a clue about what they produce.

> or some other or combination of other foreign makes that succumb
> to an onslaught of high quality, affordabe AMERICAN cars.

Not even possible, because of that massive overhang on all those who used to 'work' for the big 3 at one time.

THATS what makes survival of the big 3 impossible now.

They cant even go bankrupt and get rid of them that way because
almost no one will buy a car produced by a bankrupt car company.

> Everyone here in this country should do everything they can to bring that about.

Not even possible.

The best thats possible now is to see more US assembly of Jap and Korean cars and even that isnt
possible either if the big 3 go bust and there is no longer tariff protection because they have gone bust.

The industry really is doomed.

>> The answer is to pick GM or Ford. If Ford is picked, then they could
>> consider trying to have someone like Honda or Hyundai pick up the
>> truck portion of Chrysler. Chrysler has no appropriate cars of its
>> own due to Mercedes decisions and with the market moving back to
>> cars, Chrysler can't make it on its own.

== 16 of 17 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 15 2008 7:23 am
From: "Rod Speed"

Dave Head wrote:
> On Sun, 14 Dec 2008 21:12:31 -0500, Marsha <mas@xeb.net> wrote:
>
>> Dave Head wrote:
>>> Well, I'm for taking that option away from them. Its not good for
>>> our nation.
>>>
>>
>> Dude, you can't be serious.
>>
>> Marsha
>
> Oh, please... you wait for a conversation like this to come up with
> that? What about the option to buy the car you really want to buy?
> Can't do that, eh? I want one without and air bag and without
> antilock brakes and without the heavy safety stuff and, starting in
> 2012 I want to buy them without antilock brakes and without stability
> control. I can't / won't be able to buy any of those cars.
>
> Hell, I want to buy a '69 Corvette Stingray with 427, 4-speed and a
> 4.11 rear gear, with a great big filler neck in the center of the
> rear deck that accepts highly leaded, high octane gas and is so damn
> fast it scares you just starting it. That's what I want to buy.
>
> But I can't...

There just arent enough of you dinosaurs around to have any relevance to a car industry thats in terminal decline.

== 17 of 17 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 15 2008 7:26 am
From: "Rod Speed"

edward ohare wrote:
> On Sun, 14 Dec 2008 14:00:55 -0500, "Daniel T."
> <daniel_t@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> edward ohare <edward_ohare@nospam.yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 14 Dec 2008 10:39:23 -0500, "Daniel T."
>>> <daniel_t@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>>>> resale value has little/nothing to do with whether the company
>>>> exists.
>>>
>>> Have to disagree here.
>>
>> We have a classic car sales dealership in my town... The fact that
>> none of the cars on the showroom are made anymore doesn't seem to
>> hurt their resale value...
>
>
> How does the value of toys relate to the value of modern
> transportation?
>
>>
>>> For starters, there will be little if any financing available.
>>> Default setting for a bank is going to be "we don't loan money on
>>> those". That will necessariy drive prices down.
>>
>> Why do you think the banks would do that?

> Because that's what they've done in the past. See Daewoo.

And that was when they had plenty of money to lend.

They dont anymore, so they will be even more selective now.

>>> They ought to announce this as part of whatever it is they're going
>>> to do (if anything) rather than after the fact saying "oh, OK, GM's
>>> gone, we'll cover your warranties because we feel sorry for you.

>> IMHO, if a company is so big that the USA can't afford to let it go
>> out of business, it needs to be broken up into smaller companies.

> That's the way to efficiency! <G>

==============================================================================
TOPIC: "Told Ya this was coming - Laid-off worker kills CEO" (Q: Are scumbag
employers of illegal aliens NEXT?)
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/702044f4857f4f23?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 15 2008 1:32 am
From: wismel@yahoo.com

On Sun, 14 Dec 2008 19:50:56 -0800 (PST),
"GeorgeWashingtonAdmirer@adelphia.com" <guybannister58@aol.com> wrote:

> Just the other day I was surprised to hear a colleague -- one not
>known for being very "political" or for making "startling" statements
>-- say that in light of the rapidly collapsing U.S. economy he expects
>to see some laid-off worker, "snap".
>
> It sure looks like outspoken Net activist Hal Turner similarly hit
>the nail on the head less than three weeks ago when, in yet another
>prescient column of the type he's becoming famous for, he predicted
>that dispossessed Americans would begin taking direct action against
>the "masters of the universe" who for decades now have been selling
>them out.
>
> My only question is this:
>
> Does anyone think that any of those Americans who've been laid-off
>and so terribly back-stabbed by many of the country's ruthless,
>illegal-alien-hiring, anything-for-a-buck outlaw business owners will
>begin targeting for such direct action those who (under both Clinton
>and Bush) have been raking-in money hand over fist, in many cases
>becoming multimillionaires in the process, by employing illegal
>aliens, evading taxes and basically screwing their fellow U.S.
>citizens, who were left to pay their illegal alien employees' health
>care, education and other costs even as the illegals were turning
>Americans' communities into dirty, crime-ridden Third World enclaves?
>
>*************************************************************************************
>December 14, 2008
>
>Told Ya this was coming. . . . Laid-off worker kills CEO
>
>By Hal Turner
>
>[See: "Police allege sacked employee killed his former boss" at
>http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20081213/christmasparty_shooting_081213/20081213?hub=TopStories]
>
>Vancouver, BC -- A 61 year old man shot and killed the CEO of his
>company after being laid off just before Christmas.
>
>Three weeks ago, I warned all of you that "bloodshed and death" were
>coming to the business community over the present financial crisis.
>
>[See: "Bloodshed and Death is Coming to American Businessmen" at
>http://halturnershow.blogspot.com/2008/11/bloodshed-and-death-is-coming-to.html
>
>I specifically warned that it would be the CEO's, CFO's and other
>"masters of the universe" who would be doing the bleeding and dying
>and that is, in fact, the case!
>
>In fact, I took the liberty of sending the column above as an OP-ED
>submission to "Business Week," "Forbes," "Fortune," "Time," "Newsweek"
>and "The Wall Street Journal." I wanted business people to understand
>the depth of trouble they were in and give them a chance to make
>things right. Not one of the media outlets above dared to print what I
>had written.
>
>Here we are just weeks later and the violence I warned about has
>begun. It seems to me there will be more; much more.
>
>Those who thought they were masters of the universe are now finding
>out how vulnerable they really are. They are learning that "the little
>people" have a terrible wrath when their lives get wrecked.
>
>In my opinion, this type of violence is well deserved.

I suggest public demonstrations at the homes of those business types
who knowing hire illegal aliens. Nothing like a picketing of a home on
Sunday morning.

ted

==============================================================================
TOPIC: New and cheap INSPIRON 6000 laptop battery,for sales
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/7ad14cdad75f96a8?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 15 2008 3:45 am
From: clams_casino

www.Queensbridge.us wrote:

>On Dec 8, 10:13 pm, Zanasil <batbusin...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Hi,
>>We provide inspiron 6000 battery for your Christmas stocking,cheap and
>>brand new.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>Be sure to check Ebay prices
>
>

You don't trust China supplier for cheap stuff?

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Work at home
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/af7ee5ecf23dc009?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 15 2008 5:16 am
From: vikkyrs@gmail.com

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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Form Filling Jobs
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/1b7914201d4d744d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 15 2008 5:19 am
From: vikky

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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Work For Advertising Company
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/2f72d4f11cfdfab3?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 15 2008 5:21 am
From: vikky

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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Saving Money on Taxes
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/6edb619d9e0de570?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 15 2008 6:53 am
From: Evelyn Leeper

As the end of the year approaches, here's a suggestion:

If you are itemizing your deductions this year, you may want to
calculate if you can save money by paying next year's charitable
contributions this year.

If your deductions including charitable contributions are above the
standard deduction, but not including charitable contributions are below
it, you can save money by alternating. For example, pay your "2009"
contributions this month and so claim double contributions this year
(since you also have your "real" 2008 contributions), while next year
you claim the standard deduction. This in 2010, pay your 2010 and 2011
contributions, and so on.

(All this assumes that you have a fairly fixed schedule on what you
contribute.)

Some people have said that they can pay ahead on their local property
taxes, which gives you an even better deal.

--
Evelyn C. Leeper
Be braver. You cannot cross a chasm in two small jumps.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Jo-Ann Fabrics customer suffering diarrhea shits herself because they
would not let her use the bathroom.
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/cd8f48b5f61f57ba?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 15 2008 7:20 am
From: Patriot Games

On Sun, 14 Dec 2008 17:20:33 -0800 (PST), SilentOtto
<silentotto@hotmail.com> wrote:
>On Dec 14, 12:29 pm, Patriot Games <Patr...@America.Com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 14 Dec 2008 09:06:03 -0800 (PST), ultim...@gmail.com wrote:
>> >http://consumerist.com/consumer/worst-customer-service-ever/jo+ann-fa...
>> BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!
>See, all you rightards?
>This is what being a racist rightard does to your humanity.
>This is your Jacob Marley moment.

I don't think Jacob Marley crapped his pants, I never saw that in the
movie.

Its more like an Exploding Ass Moment:

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a35/chelseagirl19/IMG_0021.jpg

Here's an example of Exploding Ass Moment while working:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5252Kx37vXU

Here's how the police can find you if you've had an Exploding Ass
Moment outdoors:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2jD0q38m6I

And:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuMKgpBvzZ8

And:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZSWazHSaV4

And finally, just for YOU:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=On1TuQAWm6I

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 15 2008 7:36 am
From: Liberal Whisperer

On Dec 14, 11:39 pm, SilentOtto <silento...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Dec 14, 8:50 pm, Harold Burton <hal.i.bur...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > In article
> > <1cc64600-159f-4455-939e-d8fb8ffc9...@d42g2000prb.googlegroups.com>,
>
> > SilentOtto <silento...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Dec 14, 12:29 pm, Patriot Games <Patr...@America.Com> wrote:
> > > > On Sun, 14 Dec 2008 09:06:03 -0800 (PST), ultim...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > >http://consumerist.com/consumer/worst-customer-service-ever/jo+ann-fa...
>
> > > > BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!
>
> > > See, all you rightards?
>
> > > This is what being a racist rightard does to your humanity.
>
> > Yeah, making fun of leftards when they whine, which is all the time.
>
> > Snicker.
>
> Making fun of some poor person who is sick in public is your idea of
> fun?
>
> Just how contemptible are you rightard, anyway?
>
> Heh heh...
>
> Rightards...- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

As opposed to you leftist,knuckledragging,asslicking Obamunistas that
spent 3 months poking fun at Sarah Palin's retarded child. STFU!!

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Frugal Living

Blog Archive

Monday, December 15, 2008

misc.consumers.frugal-living - 25 new messages in 9 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living - 25 new messages in 9 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living - 25 new messages in 8 topics - digest