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misc.consumers.frugal-living
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http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/40d651ea196b45b8?hl=en
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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Heat Pump Water Heaters
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/40d651ea196b45b8?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Apr 8 2008 7:06 pm
From: "Lou"

"Paul M. Eldridge" <paul.eldridge@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:60ilv3t7ksu6dgb4i0i2o37mq04cbiua2q@4ax.com...
>
> Hi Lou,
>
> The bulk of my space heating -- some 80 per cent -- is provided by a
> ductless heat pump with a seasonal COP of just about 2.5. A heat pump
> water heater would allow me to take advantage of this low-cost heat,
> whereas I'm currently dependent upon fuel oil for 100 per cent of my
> DHW needs. It's only when I'm heating with oil "at the margin" (i.e.,
> when any incremental demand is met by my oil-fired boiler) that the
> results would be neutral; in my case, the two or three coldest weeks
> of the year.
>
> I live in a temperate maritime climate where space heating is required
> roughly seven months of the year (i.e., October 1st through April
> 30th); the other five months I run my dehumidifier virtually non-stop
> to prevent issues related to mould and mildew. A heat pump water
> heater would effectively provide me with "free" hot water during these
> five months because it would eliminate the need to operate my
> dehumidifier either in whole or in part (dehumidification being one of
> the desirable side benefits).

Hi Paul -

I dunno - I have a small dehumidifier in my unfinished basement. I don't
use it much, but when I do, it throws off a lot of heat - enough to make the
space noticeably warmer. Of course, the heat the machine generates and the
latent heat from the condensed water vapor both get thrown off into the
cellar air, and in your case at least some of that would end up in the hot
water. But if I turn it on when the air conditioning is in use, the two
machines seem to end up fighting each other.

> I consume roughly 450 to 500 litres of fuel oil a year for domestic
> hot water purposes; at $1.10 per litre that's $500.00 to $550.00.
> Taking into consideration the "free" hot water during the summer
> months and my heat pump's seasonal COP of 2.5 during the heating
> season, I would peg my net savings over oil at about $400.00 a year.

The question isn't really, or only, about this new type of heater compared
to oil. Just to get some ballpark estimates, I went to the Sears site and
picked the first sizeable electric water heater I stumbled across - it
happened to be a 55 gallon model priced at 309 US dollars - and the
estimated annual electric usage was 4721 kWh/year. The most efficient
model, according to the energy guide label, uses 4600 kWh/year. Oddly
enough, a 30 gallon model had the same estimated energy usage, though the
cost was only $199 US. (I guess that means that standby losses are pretty
minimal, and it takes a certain amount of energy to heat a certain amount of
water whether you do it in a few big batches or a bunch of little ones.)
The question is, how does something like that compare to the estimated cost
of running the heat pump water heater, plus any extra running your space
heating heat pump, plus running your oil burner when you need the extra
heat.

I'll note that if your heat pump is reasonably sized for the space you're
heating and your climate, adding the additional load of heating your
domestic hot water may mean that the oil burner gets more use than it does
at present. On the other hand, you may need to use the dehumidifier and air
conditioning less in the summer. I don't know enough to figure all this
out, but it's why I suggested to use a sharp pencil to calculate the
alternatives.

It's pretty much a given that almost anything new would be cheaper to
operate than your present setup. It's not quite as obvious which
alternative would be the most economical.

> >One other thing to consider - back in 1999 or so GE was saying that by
the year 2001 it
> >would have a residential sized, natural gas powered, fuel cell unit that
> >would be able to provide a typical home with electricity, space heating,
and
> >hot water. (It was dubbed the HomeGen 7000.) I haven't heard anything
about
> >it since.
>
> I remember that too. I'm much more optimistic about this announcement
> because the technology has been around for some thirty years and has
> proven to be reliable, and because it can be manufactured using "off
> the shelf" components (basically a standard refrigerator compressor).
> The incremental cost of a HPWH versus a conventional electric water
> heater is generally in the range of $400.00 and this particular
> product can be installed by a plumber or homeowner. The financial
> return, especially in more milder climates, should be pretty solid;
> even more so if it should qualify for various utility incentives or
> government rebates.

Incentives/rebates can have an effect on your calculations, of a certainty.
I take it from your use of "litres" that you're not in the US, and have no
idea what may be available to you in that line. Which ever way you decide
to go, good luck.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Apr 8 2008 10:13 pm
From: Paul M. Eldridge

On Tue, 8 Apr 2008 22:06:55 -0400, "Lou" <lpogodajr292185@comcast.net>
wrote:

>"Paul M. Eldridge" <paul.eldridge@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
>news:60ilv3t7ksu6dgb4i0i2o37mq04cbiua2q@4ax.com...

>Hi Paul -
>
>I dunno - I have a small dehumidifier in my unfinished basement. I don't
>use it much, but when I do, it throws off a lot of heat - enough to make the
>space noticeably warmer. Of course, the heat the machine generates and the
>latent heat from the condensed water vapor both get thrown off into the
>cellar air, and in your case at least some of that would end up in the hot
>water. But if I turn it on when the air conditioning is in use, the two
>machines seem to end up fighting each other.

Hi Lou,

I have an Energy Star dehumidifier but, like yours, it dumps a
considerable amount of heat into my home during the time of the year
when it's least welcome. In the case of a heat pump water heater,
most if not all of the waste heat from its operation would be
transferred to the water -- if not on the first pass, then on each
subsequent run.

Being a frugal two-person household we don't use a lot of hot water so
this shouldn't be a problem for us, but I understand excessive cooling
can be an issue in homes with high hot water demand. For example, 100
litres (26.5 gallons) of hot water demand with a temperature lift of
40C (72F) would result in some 15,840 BTUs of cooling. According to
the DOE, a typical U.S. home uses about 240 litres of hot water per
day and if we assume a 40C temperature lift, this translates to be
some 38,000 BTUs of cooling. Great if you live in the southern
states, but perhaps too much of a good thing if you live further
north, as I do.

>The question isn't really, or only, about this new type of heater compared
>to oil. Just to get some ballpark estimates, I went to the Sears site and
>picked the first sizeable electric water heater I stumbled across - it
>happened to be a 55 gallon model priced at 309 US dollars - and the
>estimated annual electric usage was 4721 kWh/year. The most efficient
>model, according to the energy guide label, uses 4600 kWh/year. Oddly
>enough, a 30 gallon model had the same estimated energy usage, though the
>cost was only $199 US. (I guess that means that standby losses are pretty
>minimal, and it takes a certain amount of energy to heat a certain amount of
>water whether you do it in a few big batches or a bunch of little ones.)
>The question is, how does something like that compare to the estimated cost
>of running the heat pump water heater, plus any extra running your space
>heating heat pump, plus running your oil burner when you need the extra
>heat.
>
>I'll note that if your heat pump is reasonably sized for the space you're
>heating and your climate, adding the additional load of heating your
>domestic hot water may mean that the oil burner gets more use than it does
>at present. On the other hand, you may need to use the dehumidifier and air
>conditioning less in the summer. I don't know enough to figure all this
>out, but it's why I suggested to use a sharp pencil to calculate the
>alternatives.
>
>It's pretty much a given that almost anything new would be cheaper to
>operate than your present setup. It's not quite as obvious which
>alternative would be the most economical.

One litre of residential fuel oil contains 36,500 BTUs of energy and
with an estimated summer EF of 0.60, I net 6.42 kWh of useful heat.
During the winter months, my gain is 8.77 kWh per litre based on my
boiler's 82% AFUE rating -- not all of this heat is transferred
directly to the water, but other than what's lost up the stack, the
remaining boiler and tank losses simply offset a portion of my home's
space heating demand. On that basis, at $1.10 per litre, the summer
and winter operating costs are $0.171 and $0.125 per kWh(e)
respectively; again, the lower winter number reflects the economic
benefit of the boiler's standby losses in terms of offsetting a
portion of my home's normal space heating demands.

Electric resistance is currently $0.1067 per kWh and with a seasonal
COP of 2.5, each kWh of heat provided by my heat pump is just $0.043.
So, as long the HPWH is "stealing" heat supplied by my heat pump, the
operating costs of the HPWH are quite low. It's only when the heat
taken away by the HPWH is provided by my oil-fired boiler that the
results are basically neutral. For much of the winter, my ductless
heat pump should have sufficient surplus capacity to meet this
additional load (again, we're not heavy users of DHW); during the
times when the ductless heat pump can't keep up then, obviously, the
oil-fired boiler has to pick-up the slack -- roughly speaking, the two
or three coldest weeks of the year.

In any event, for five of the twelve months, my operating costs are
effectively nil because the HPWH would be powered by the electricity
that would normally be used by my dehumidifier. For another six
months say, virtually all of the heat consumed by the HPWH would be
supplied by my ductless heat pump at an average of 4.3 cents per
kWh(e). For the one remaining month, it's likely the additional HPWH
demand would be met by the boiler, so there would be no net gain
vis-a-vis my current system.

>Incentives/rebates can have an effect on your calculations, of a certainty.
>I take it from your use of "litres" that you're not in the US, and have no
>idea what may be available to you in that line. Which ever way you decide
>to go, good luck.

Thanks. There are no incentives or rebates available at this time,
but that could change as Nova Scotia Power is starting to ramp-up the
DSM efforts and, hopefully, this is something they might like to
promote. As a guess, a conventional electric water heater would save
me about $200.00 a year over oil, so if the installed cost of an
electric unit is $400.00, the simple pay back is two years. A HPWH
might save me upwards of $400.00 a year and assuming the installed
cost is three times that of a conventional water heater, the pay back
is something in the order of three years. However, in terms of their
ten-year NPVs, I would expect the HPWH to be the hands-down winner.

Admittedly, my particular circumstances are better than what one might
normally expect because the bulk of my space heating is no longer met
by oil. But by the same token, those who heat with wood or wood
pellet or some other low-cost alternative would share a similar
advantage over oil (and electricity). As you correctly point out, you
really need to look at the numbers carefully to see if this option
makes sense.

Best regards,
Paul

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Turning off gas / water in house that is still somewhat in use?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/0d95784a16c4e201?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Apr 8 2008 6:06 pm
From: Terryc

Joe wrote:
> I'm selling a property. Folks visit it to see it but I turned the hot water
> heaters and furnaces to their "vacation" settings. Last time I was there, I
> turned off the water main to make sure that there were no "drips" causing me
> a bill...

Why don't you just turn them off?

>
> It doesn't get below freezing and I have a fridge or two in the house so I
> can't kill the power totally... Anything else I can do to save $$$ on

Umm, prop the fridge/freezer door open and then turn the power off.

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== 1 of 1 ==
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Apr 8 2008 6:38 pm
From: wenrou2008.feel@163.com

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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Apr 8 2008 6:39 pm
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Apr 8 2008 6:44 pm
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TOPIC: No THIS IS NOT SPAM: How Do I Spend This $50?
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Apr 8 2008 6:49 pm
From: Shawn Hirn

In article <Xns9A7896B519A8Dmavi@207.115.17.102>,
mavigozler <mavigozler@turkiye.gov> wrote:

> I posted this earlier, and got no response. I then figured out that the
> Subject header made the post look like spam. So now I have re-titled the
> post and am using another nym (for those who instantly killfiled the
> other).
>
> ====
>
> I was given a $50 gift card as a promotion.
>
> I want to put it toward purchase of a some wireless/cable-less device that
> will talk with my computer.
>
> I was thinking of some ear/headphones that allow me to walk around in the
> workplace without having my laptop speakers disturb others with the music
> or political talk radio that streams in on the Net.
>
> Or maybe there's something more sensible (?), like a Bluetooth mouse (I
> don't use the touchpad since it gets greasy from my finger oil too
> quickly).
>
> Then again, I suppose a BT speaker system with good wattage, because
> sometimes I got a DVD running on my laptop (the vid output on its 17-inch
> UltraBright screen) and the speakers are elsewhere and fill the room.
>
> Please help me out for a gift idea for myself.

Its up to you. Why don't you stop by your favorite electronics store and
see what catches your interest? If I had a $50 gift card now, I would
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== 1 of 1 ==
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== 1 of 1 ==
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== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Apr 8 2008 7:23 pm
From: "Dave"

>>I have to admit I'm a bit underwhelmed on the "savings" department
>>with my He2 "front loader"
>
> To me (limited knowledge)..... the problem with front
> loaders..... and my beef with the one that I had that
> failed on me after 7 years is this:
>
> The "longevity" of front loaders MAY not be long
> enough for the payback given the premium cost.
>
> You really need to think that out ...
>
> I just don't think these new fangled front loaders (ANY
> of them)...will last 20-25 years like the old top
> loader that my mom had did. And if they don't....
> there is a good chance there will be no payback but
> ironically could COST MORE total ownership cost! That
> was my experience!

OK, but that's not a fair comparison. If you bought a top loader 30 years
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== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Apr 8 2008 7:26 pm
From: "Dave"

If you're moving from a top loader to a front loader to save operating
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which will still be running long after the front loader goes to the
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(snip)

How can you possibly draw that conclusion? Front loaders are more popular
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Apr 8 2008 8:11 pm
From: gheston@hiwaay.net (Gary Heston)

In article <c2d39455-b0f9-4b29-9efb-ded2ebf9bff3@k10g2000prm.googlegroups.com>,
<piclistguy@yahoo.com> wrote:
>I often use rubber gloves for washing dishes (sensitive skin).
>The ones I buy are from from Target for about $6. They last a long
>time and are high quality.
>Once in a while, water gets into the lining and bacteria start to
>grow.
[ .. ]
> Does anyone know of some tricks I can try to
>keep from throwing these out.
>Thanks

Turn them inside-out, rinse them with a mild bleach solution, allow them
to dry thoroughly, and turn them back.

Gary

--
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http://www.thebreastcancersite.com/

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TOPIC: Where can I buy a cheap little wooden shed?
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Apr 8 2008 8:22 pm
From: gheston@hiwaay.net (Gary Heston)

In article <30rmv3l668jlkbr8ceskrnks0l65a66nlu@4ax.com>,
<hchickpea@hotmail.com> wrote:
>On Tue, 08 Apr 2008 06:41:12 -0400, Shawn Hirn <srhi@comcast.net>
>wrote:

>>In article
>><a3278184-90a1-4381-b21f-04b157771080@e10g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
>> GeneCook2008@gmail.com wrote:

>>> I don't understand anything of building one myself from scratch. I
>>> just can assemble it.

The local Habitat for Humanity organization builds storage sheds as a
means of training volunteers in the basics of using tools and construction.

You might want to check with your local HfH to see if they're doing this,
and join in on a few shed building sessions.

>>> If you know links, please let me know.

>>Stop by local home center stores such as Home Depot to see what they
>>offer.

>I wouldn't call them cheap. The wooden ones they sell are durned
>pricey.

Yeah, they like them a whold lot.

> I checked them out, since I've got to put together a chicken
>coop soon. Ain't no chickens of mine goina live in one of them

Want some free shipping crates? As in 8' high x 8' long x 4' deep plywood
or OSB with 1x framing? There's a place here with bunches of them for free.

(Not that this will benefit most of you, but I think Mrs. Chickpea makes an
occasional trip to the local Botanical Garden, so it'd be convenient for
Harry to ride along and collect crate pieces. And, I can take them to lunch.)

Gary

--
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http://www.thebreastcancersite.com/

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== 1 of 1 ==
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Apr 8 2008 8:26 pm
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== 1 of 1 ==
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Tuesday, April 8, 2008

25 new messages in 23 topics - digest