Frugal Living: Dec 18, 2007

Tuesday, December 18, 2007

25 new messages in 7 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

* Exploding television... - 15 messages, 12 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/354f162529b27d4f?hl=en
* New Money Saving Articles - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/79aabd9b6fbfba2e?hl=en
* Ice cream shrinks again - 2 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/cf443aea01762c8b?hl=en
* Natural gas space heaters - 3 messages, 3 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/620118e627721656?hl=en
* So quiet in here. Everyone Chrismas shopping? - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/14ff3a2698c21c95?hl=en
* Debit card article in Reader's Digest - 2 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/30646f032f4ff9e6?hl=en
* saving on PA auto insurance - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/1120b299c49c3276?hl=en

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Exploding television...
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/354f162529b27d4f?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 15 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 18 2007 12:04 pm
From: sarge137

On Dec 18, 10:20 am, maryatbe...@webtv.net (Mary Mathews) wrote:
> My sister's friend's TV exploded. The two ladies there were hurt and
> taken to the hospital. The house burned to the ground. Does anyone here
> know about exploding TV's and what we can do to prevent such an
> accident? Thanks. Mary

Can't say for sure Mary, but I'd bet next month's mortgage payment
that there's way more to the story. Television don't "explode".

I've seen cases where house fires were started by faulty electrical
circuits in televisions, then the picture tube exploded from the heat
of the ensuing fire; but in over forty years I've never seen or even
heard of anyone being injured from a spontaneously exploding
television.

If you're really concerned about this I'd suggest you contact your
sister's friend and get all the facts.

Regards,
Sarge

== 2 of 15 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 18 2007 12:16 pm
From: Dennis

On Tue, 18 Dec 2007 12:20:55 -0500, maryatbeach@webtv.net (Mary
Mathews) wrote:

>
>My sister's friend's TV exploded. The two ladies there were hurt and
>taken to the hospital. The house burned to the ground. Does anyone here
>know about exploding TV's and what we can do to prevent such an
>accident? Thanks. Mary

Was there a penguin atop the telly at the time?

Dennis (evil)
--
"There is a fine line between participation and mockery" - Wally

== 3 of 15 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 18 2007 12:57 pm
From: Anthony Matonak

Mary Mathews wrote:
> My sister's friend's TV exploded. The two ladies there were hurt and
> taken to the hospital. The house burned to the ground. Does anyone here
> know about exploding TV's and what we can do to prevent such an
> accident? Thanks. Mary

I can suggest the obvious. Don't own a TV and fireproof the house.

Anthony

== 4 of 15 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 18 2007 1:38 pm
From: turtlelover

Dennis wrote:
> On Tue, 18 Dec 2007 12:20:55 -0500, maryatbeach@webtv.net (Mary
> Mathews) wrote:
>
>
>>My sister's friend's TV exploded. The two ladies there were hurt and
>>taken to the hospital. The house burned to the ground. Does anyone here
>>know about exploding TV's and what we can do to prevent such an
>>accident? Thanks. Mary
>
>
> Was there a penguin atop the telly at the time?
>
> Dennis (evil)

My thought exactly, Dennis. I see there's another Monty Python fan here!

Cheers,
T

== 5 of 15 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 18 2007 2:57 pm
From: Seerialmom

On Dec 18, 9:20 am, maryatbe...@webtv.net (Mary Mathews) wrote:
> My sister's friend's TV exploded. The two ladies there were hurt and
> taken to the hospital. The house burned to the ground. Does anyone here
> know about exploding TV's and what we can do to prevent such an
> accident? Thanks. Mary

Simplest answer: Don't have a TV in the house Second simplest answer:
Get an LCD TV; no pesky CRT to build up pressure and burst.

== 6 of 15 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 18 2007 2:58 pm
From: Seerialmom

On Dec 18, 12:04 pm, sarge137 <rbooth9...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Dec 18, 10:20 am, maryatbe...@webtv.net (Mary Mathews) wrote:
>
> > My sister's friend's TV exploded. The two ladies there were hurt and
> > taken to the hospital. The house burned to the ground. Does anyone here
> > know about exploding TV's and what we can do to prevent such an
> > accident? Thanks. Mary
>
> Can't say for sure Mary, but I'd bet next month's mortgage payment
> that there's way more to the story. Television don't "explode".
>
> I've seen cases where house fires were started by faulty electrical
> circuits in televisions, then the picture tube exploded from the heat
> of the ensuing fire; but in over forty years I've never seen or even
> heard of anyone being injured from a spontaneously exploding
> television.
>
> If you're really concerned about this I'd suggest you contact your
> sister's friend and get all the facts.
>
> Regards,
> Sarge

This sure sounds like a story for the Mythbusters, doesn't it?

== 7 of 15 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 18 2007 3:00 pm
From: Vic Smith

On Tue, 18 Dec 2007 14:57:43 -0800 (PST), Seerialmom
<seerialmom@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Dec 18, 9:20 am, maryatbe...@webtv.net (Mary Mathews) wrote:
>> My sister's friend's TV exploded. The two ladies there were hurt and
>> taken to the hospital. The house burned to the ground. Does anyone here
>> know about exploding TV's and what we can do to prevent such an
>> accident? Thanks. Mary
>
>Simplest answer: Don't have a TV in the house Second simplest answer:
>Get an LCD TV; no pesky CRT to build up pressure and burst.

Just have to bleed off the CRT pressure once in a while.
Problem solved.

== 8 of 15 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 18 2007 3:08 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

Seerialmom <seerialmom@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Dec 18, 9:20 am, maryatbe...@webtv.net (Mary Mathews) wrote:
>> My sister's friend's TV exploded. The two ladies there were hurt and
>> taken to the hospital. The house burned to the ground. Does anyone
>> here know about exploding TV's and what we can do to prevent such an
>> accident? Thanks. Mary

> Simplest answer: Don't have a TV in the house

> Second simplest answer: Get an LCD TV;
> no pesky CRT to build up pressure and burst.

CRTs dont build up pressure and burst, they have a vacuum in them.

== 9 of 15 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 18 2007 3:19 pm
From: imascot

Vic Smith <thismailautodeleted@comcast.net> wrote in
news:i7kgm3d2jurgdipqd3t3crhndgmktg255e@4ax.com:

> On Tue, 18 Dec 2007 14:57:43 -0800 (PST), Seerialmom
> <seerialmom@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>On Dec 18, 9:20 am, maryatbe...@webtv.net (Mary Mathews) wrote:
>>> My sister's friend's TV exploded. The two ladies there were hurt and
>>> taken to the hospital. The house burned to the ground. Does anyone
here
>>> know about exploding TV's and what we can do to prevent such an
>>> accident? Thanks. Mary
>>
>>Simplest answer: Don't have a TV in the house Second simplest answer:
>>Get an LCD TV; no pesky CRT to build up pressure and burst.
>
> Just have to bleed off the CRT pressure once in a while.
> Problem solved.
>

How exactly is this done?

== 10 of 15 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 18 2007 3:32 pm
From: Mark Anderson

In article imnot@mycomputer.now says...
> > Just have to bleed off the CRT pressure once in a while.
> > Problem solved.
> >
>
> How exactly is this done?

There's a little valve at the back up the picture tube. Use need a
small screwdriver to open the valve that lets the air bubbles out.

== 11 of 15 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 18 2007 3:45 pm
From: "Don K"

"Mark Anderson" <mea@nospambrandylion.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.21d214a257683d4a9899b6@chi.news.speakeasy.net...
> In article imnot@mycomputer.now says...
>> > Just have to bleed off the CRT pressure once in a while.
>> > Problem solved.
>> >
>>
>> How exactly is this done?
>
> There's a little valve at the back up the picture tube. Use need a
> small screwdriver to open the valve that lets the air bubbles out.

You could use a bleeder resistor, but that's just a band-aid approach.

== 12 of 15 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 18 2007 3:47 pm
From: "Don K"

"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:5sr26vF18qvc8U1@mid.individual.net...
> Seerialmom <seerialmom@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On Dec 18, 9:20 am, maryatbe...@webtv.net (Mary Mathews) wrote:
>>> My sister's friend's TV exploded. The two ladies there were hurt and
>>> taken to the hospital. The house burned to the ground. Does anyone
>>> here know about exploding TV's and what we can do to prevent such an
>>> accident? Thanks. Mary
>
>> Simplest answer: Don't have a TV in the house
>
>> Second simplest answer: Get an LCD TV;
>> no pesky CRT to build up pressure and burst.
>
> CRTs dont build up pressure and burst, they have a vacuum in them.

And once the bag gets filled, it explodes.

== 13 of 15 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 18 2007 3:50 pm
From: PaPaPeng

On Tue, 18 Dec 2007 12:04:28 -0800 (PST), sarge137
<rbooth9858@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Dec 18, 10:20 am, maryatbe...@webtv.net (Mary Mathews) wrote:
>> My sister's friend's TV exploded. The two ladies there were hurt and
>> taken to the hospital. The house burned to the ground. Does anyone here
>> know about exploding TV's and what we can do to prevent such an
>> accident? Thanks. Mary
>
>Can't say for sure Mary, but I'd bet next month's mortgage payment
>that there's way more to the story. Television don't "explode".
>
>I've seen cases where house fires were started by faulty electrical
>circuits in televisions, then the picture tube exploded from the heat
>of the ensuing fire; but in over forty years I've never seen or even
>heard of anyone being injured from a spontaneously exploding
>television.
>
>If you're really concerned about this I'd suggest you contact your
>sister's friend and get all the facts.
>
>Regards,
>Sarge

A TV CRT is a vacuum tube. Should it fail it implodes not explode.
The tube itself is thin glass ande well protected by the TV box. In
front where the TV picture is, is a thick cornformal piece of glass
that protects the vacuum tube from imploding should you knock with a
piece of furniture or throw a can of beer at it. It take quite a
hammer force to break that protective glass layer. Next, should there
be a short circuit the main fuse from the power cord to the
transformer blows immediately. No power, no fire. The OP is making
up the story.

== 14 of 15 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 18 2007 4:58 pm
From: Dennis

On Tue, 18 Dec 2007 23:50:06 GMT, PaPaPeng <PaPaPeng@yahoo.com> wrote:

>A TV CRT is a vacuum tube. Should it fail it implodes not explode.

Having seen a large CRT burst first hand I can tell you that, to a
casual observer, there isn't a huge practical distinction. There is a
loud noise and little bits of glass go flying everywhere.

Dennis (evil)
--
"There is a fine line between participation and mockery" - Wally

== 15 of 15 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 18 2007 5:01 pm
From:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"PaPaPeng" <PaPaPeng@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:63ngm317ihhc292eu9imva25b7on59t5b6@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 18 Dec 2007 12:04:28 -0800 (PST), sarge137
> <rbooth9858@yahoo.com> wrote:
>

>The OP is making up the story.

Well, duh! That's why it's so amusing!

==============================================================================
TOPIC: New Money Saving Articles
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/79aabd9b6fbfba2e?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 18 2007 12:43 pm
From: Cheapo Groovo

http://cheapogroovo.vox.com/library/post/cheapo-humidifier.html
http://cheapogroovo.vox.com/library/post/free-wi-fi.html
http://cheapogroovo.vox.com/library/post/2007-web-site-of-the-year.html
http://cheapogroovo.vox.com/library/post/cheapo-high-speed-internet.html
http://cheapogroovo.vox.com/library/post/cheapo-xmas-gifts.html
http://cheapogroovo.vox.com/library/post/cheapo-xmas-wrapping-paper.html
http://cheapogroovo.vox.com/library/post/save-on-energy.html

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Ice cream shrinks again
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/cf443aea01762c8b?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 18 2007 3:29 pm
From: imascot

I see that a "half gallon" of ice cream has now shrunk from 1.75 quarts to 1.5
From what I've gathered, anything that has corn in it or used to eat corn has
gone up in price, for instance, corn muffins, which used to the same price as
blueberry, are now a dollar more for a package of six.

I'd rather have expanding prices than shrinking product size, though.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 18 2007 4:57 pm
From: Brian Elfert

imascot <imnot@mycomputer.now> writes:

>I see that a "half gallon" of ice cream has now shrunk from 1.75 quarts to 1.5
>From what I've gathered, anything that has corn in it or used to eat corn has
>gone up in price, for instance, corn muffins, which used to the same price as
>blueberry, are now a dollar more for a package of six.

>I'd rather have expanding prices than shrinking product size, though.

A lot of the public won't notice a slightly smaller quantity, but will
notice the higher cost.

The cafeteria where my father worked would decrease the milk cartons by
two oz for the same cost and then would go back to the larger size when
the price increased.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Natural gas space heaters
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/620118e627721656?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 18 2007 3:51 pm
From: sylvan butler

On 18 Dec 2007 08:46:13 -0500, nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu <nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu> wrote:
> the temp sensing bulb is on the back near a cold floor under a cold single-
> pane window.

Not an ideal location... I wonder if the bulb could be relocated a
bit, and perhaps some insulation could be added on two or three sides of
the bulb to prevent cold drafts from the window above and perhaps allow
more effect from the radiant transfer of the warm room to the bulb.
Might could even put insulation on up to 5 sides of the sensor.

> We might fix the first 2 problems by putting a 25 watt light bulb near
> the temp sensor with a $15 line-voltage thermostat on the wall that
> turns the bulb off when the room is warm enough.

Hmm, I prefer a passive solution if possible. And if that second
thermostat is plugged into an outlet on the exterior wall, it is likely
to have the same problems as the thermostat built into the heater.

> If the $1275 DV-20E 81.5%-efficient direct vent and $3268 93%-efficient
> Mantis condensing gas heaters are measured with LHV-based efficiencies
> and we subtract 11% to compare apples to apples, the $229 vent-free
> heater is more efficient, as well as a lot cheaper.

The 93% and 81.5% already account for the 11% loss in non-condensing.
It is erroneous to subtract it again. Never the less, the non-vented
heater is nearly 100% efficient, and the price looks very good in
comparison. :)

> Kiddie's 900-0113 plug-in CO and explosive gas detector with battery backup
> ($48 from Amazon, with free shipping) would go well with this.

Absolutely.

sdb

--
What's seen on your screen?

http://PcScreenWatch.com
sdbuse1 on mailhost bigfoot.com

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 18 2007 4:20 pm
From: nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu

sylvan butler <ZsdbUse1+noZs_0712@Zbigfoot.Zcom.invalid> wrote:

>> If the $1275 DV-20E 81.5%-efficient direct vent and $3268 93%-efficient
>> Mantis condensing gas heaters are measured with LHV-based efficiencies
>> and we subtract 11% to compare apples to apples, the $229 vent-free
>> heater is more efficient, as well as a lot cheaper.
>
>The 93% and 81.5% already account for the 11% loss in non-condensing.

I finally heard from the manufacturer, who tested all of them with gas
with a heating value of 1035 vs 930 Btu/ft^3, ie the HHV.

Nick

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 18 2007 4:29 pm
From: Jim Elbrecht

[reading this on alt.home.repair]

On 18 Dec 2007 08:46:13 -0500, nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu wrote:

>I just installed a 30K Btu/h natural gas vent-free radiant heater in
>a house near Allentown, PA, where kerosine now costs $3.50/gallon
>and natural gas costs about $1.50/therm (roughly equivalent).

In how big an open area? I like my unvented gas stove & have never
had a bit of odor, nor has it ever registered more than the slightest
amount of CO on my detector----- But I remember when I bought it
10[?] years ago the main concern was whether or not it was too big.

My house is pretty open downstairs & the stove is in a 12x20 room with
an outside door and 5 windows. We [my gas supplier & myself]
decided that 30K would be doable.

Mine is just used as supplemental [and on the odd occasion that my
furnace goes out or we lose power. But it has never fogged windows.
-snip-
>The thermostat only has 5 temp settings, as well as "pilot only." It is
>supposed to make the room about 55 F min, with 5 F steps above that, but
>the temp sensing bulb is on the back near a cold floor under a cold single-
>pane window. When the first setting heats most of the room to more than
>70 F, the owner turns the thermostat back to pilot before the heater
>turns itself off,

I'd ask him/her to leave it alone until it can even itself out.

-snip-
> And it makes condensation
>on the indoor window surfaces.

That could be poorly insulated windows, high humidity in the house- or
excess humidity from the gas. [LP adds water to the air- I think
natural gas does, too]

-snip a whole lot of ASHRAE gobbledygook-gook-
>
>We might move outdoor air into the room with a $30 humidistat and a muffin
>fan, or (more efficiently) use a homebrew HRV with condensation outside
>and fresh air inside Coroplast (plastic corrugated sign material) plates,
>or run a dehumidifier or an $80 low-airspeed window AC inside the room.

Call your local fire department and ask them to invite you clean out
the next house they get called to remove a body that succumbed to CO
poisoning because some gadget failed.

-snip-
>Kiddie's 900-0113 plug-in CO and explosive gas detector with battery backup
>($48 from Amazon, with free shipping) would go well with this.

It [or a similar alarm] 'goes well' with any combustion device in your
house. With a ventless stove you're a damn fool for not plugging
it in before you cranked up the stove. Especially one as big as
you're running there. spend a little of the time you've invested
poring over ASHRAE charts and read what your local building department
suggests in regards to those stoves.

Jim

==============================================================================
TOPIC: So quiet in here. Everyone Chrismas shopping?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/14ff3a2698c21c95?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 18 2007 4:45 pm
From: val189

Out shopping? Not THIS kid. I mailed a few checks and gift cards and
that's it. I marvel at the people who are feeling the strain of the
season and ask why they just don't make it all stop. Buy a few things
for the kids and let the adult obligatory exchange screech to a halt.
No one will hate or sue you.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Debit card article in Reader's Digest
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/30646f032f4ff9e6?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 18 2007 4:49 pm
From: imascot

Anyone read the article warning people about debit cards in the new RD?
Here's the website version, looks like the same one:

http://www.rd.com/content/debit-card-traps-and-fees-to-avoid/
I was surprised at the growing popularity of debit cards, I thought most
people were getting into trouble with credit cards.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 18 2007 5:30 pm
From: SMS 斯蒂文* 夏

imascot wrote:
> Anyone read the article warning people about debit cards in the new RD?
> Here's the website version, looks like the same one:
>
> http://www.rd.com/content/debit-card-traps-and-fees-to-avoid/
> I was surprised at the growing popularity of debit cards, I thought most
> people were getting into trouble with credit cards.

Debit cards are extremely dangerous. Never allow any business access to
your checking account. Never let a debit card out of your sight, i.e. to
pay a restaurant bill where they take it from you.

It's amazing that anyone uses a debit card at all. You get none of the
consumer protections you get with a credit card, you don't get the
rewards programs that credit cards offer, and you risk losing your
entire checking account balance.

You can get a non-Visa, non-Mastercard, plain ATM card from your bank,
but you have to request it explicitly because otherwise they'll
automatically send you the type that can be used at most places that
accept credit cards.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: saving on PA auto insurance
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/1120b299c49c3276?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 18 2007 4:51 pm
From: normalinsurance@gmail.com

Take this for what it's worth but as an independent insurance agent in
PA, I can run quotes with up to 9 insurance companies all with one
entry of your information. We have provided better rates and/or
better coverage against all companies out there. It really depends on
your records as to which company we can save you money with.
Shop us and see. You've nothing to lose.
We will respond to your email.

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25 new messages in 19 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: LEARN TO EARN MORE CRORES NOW!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/8786b6236d5f1e87?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 18 2007 12:35 am
From: homebusinesses

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TOPIC: Compare Prices Save Money
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/ac821cb5d0d92db3?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 18 2007 12:55 am
From: fractalien11@gmail.com

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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 18 2007 1:28 am
From: fractalien

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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 18 2007 2:33 am
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 18 2007 5:04 am
From: "FreebiesPl.us"

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== 1 of 1 ==
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TOPIC: The best bread recipe!!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/5e9618d375c1d017?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 18 2007 5:24 am
From: "Gwyneð Bennetdottir"

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== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 18 2007 5:46 am
From: nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu

I just installed a 30K Btu/h natural gas vent-free radiant heater in
a house near Allentown, PA, where kerosine now costs $3.50/gallon
and natural gas costs about $1.50/therm (roughly equivalent).

Empire Comfort Systems (Enerco) makes this "Mr. Heater." Tractor Supply
sells it for $229.99 as sku #2151954. It comes with a thermostat and
a blower and a digital temperature display. It has an oxygen depletion
sensor, and it can work without grid power, but there have been some
problems since installation.

The thermostat only has 5 temp settings, as well as "pilot only." It is
supposed to make the room about 55 F min, with 5 F steps above that, but
the temp sensing bulb is on the back near a cold floor under a cold single-
pane window. When the first setting heats most of the room to more than
70 F, the owner turns the thermostat back to pilot before the heater
turns itself off, while the temperature display still only reads 58 F, ie
the thermostat isn't doing much. The owner says with the knob between
the lowest and pilot settings, the heater emits interesting flaming blue
gas footballs instead of the usual red glow. And it makes condensation
on the indoor window surfaces.

We might fix the first 2 problems by putting a 25 watt light bulb near
the temp sensor with a $15 line-voltage thermostat on the wall that
turns the bulb off when the room is warm enough.

This old house seemed drafty enough to avoid window condensation, but
it also has a damp basement, with puddles of water after rain. Keeping
water out of the basement might help a lot. Indoor storm window shrink
films could also help. Allentown is 31.8 F on an average December day.
An R1 window with a 1.5 Btu/h-F-ft^2 still airfilm indoor conductance to
70 F room air and (70-31.8)1ft^2/R1 = 38.2 Btu/h-ft^2 of heatflow would
have a glazing temp (dew point) of 70-38.2x1ft^2/1.5 = 44.5 F (504.5 R),
with indoor RH = 100e^-(9621(530-504.5)/(504.5x530) = 40% at 70 F (530 R).
Basement puddles at 55 F could condense on window surfaces.

If indoor film makes the windows R2 and raises the film temp to 70-19.1/1.5
59.4 F (519.4 R), the a max indoor RH = 100e^-(9621(530-519.4)/(519.4x530)
= 69%, with no condensation from basement puddles.

NREL says Allentown has an average humidity ratio wo = 0.0028 pounds of water
per pound of dry air in December, with Pa = 29.921/(1+0.62198/0.0028)
= 0.1341 "Hg. Air at 70 F and 100% RH has Psat = e^(17.863-9621/(460+70))
= 0.748 "Hg, approximately, so merely heating the outdoor air to 70 F
with no basement puddles would make the indoor RH = 100Pa/Psat = 18%.

The ASHRAE HOF says pure methane (vs a different natural gas mixture) has
a high heating value (HHV) of 23,875 Btu/lb, when we condense the water vapor
from combustion and a low heating value (LHV) of 21,495 (11% less) when we
don't, and 1000 Btu can evaporate a pound of water, so a vent-free heater
that makes 20K Btu/h also makes 0.11x20K/1000 = 2.2 lb/h of water vapor.
With window films and no basement puddles, we could keep a 50% indoor RH
(wi= 0.016) by moving in C cfm of fresh air (at 0.075 lb/ft^3), where
2.2=60C0.075(wi-wo), so C = 37 cfm, with a heat loss of about 37(70-31.8)
1420 Btu/h, which lowers the heater system efficiency to 93%, compared to
an HHV- 100%.

We might move outdoor air into the room with a $30 humidistat and a muffin
fan, or (more efficiently) use a homebrew HRV with condensation outside
and fresh air inside Coroplast (plastic corrugated sign material) plates,
or run a dehumidifier or an $80 low-airspeed window AC inside the room.

If the $1275 DV-20E 81.5%-efficient direct vent and $3268 93%-efficient
Mantis condensing gas heaters are measured with LHV-based efficiencies
and we subtract 11% to compare apples to apples, the $229 vent-free
heater is more efficient, as well as a lot cheaper.

Kiddie's 900-0113 plug-in CO and explosive gas detector with battery backup
($48 from Amazon, with free shipping) would go well with this.

Nick

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 18 2007 5:56 am
From: George

nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu wrote:
> I just installed a 30K Btu/h natural gas vent-free radiant heater in
> a house near Allentown, PA, where kerosine now costs $3.50/gallon
> and natural gas costs about $1.50/therm (roughly equivalent).
>
> Empire Comfort Systems (Enerco) makes this "Mr. Heater." Tractor Supply
> sells it for $229.99 as sku #2151954. It comes with a thermostat and
> a blower and a digital temperature display. It has an oxygen depletion
> sensor, and it can work without grid power, but there have been some
> problems since installation.
>
>
I have never seen one of those style heaters that didn't have the same
slightly acrid odor that is really annoying in a confined space such as
a house. Is this one any different?

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Free Sample of a Natural Laxative, Next To Nature
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/8e7af7af0d4c9ec9?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 18 2007 5:47 am
From: "FreebiesPl.us"

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==============================================================================
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== 1 of 1 ==
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== 1 of 1 ==
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TOPIC: ⊙ ⊙Christmas big ritual
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 18 2007 8:43 am
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== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 18 2007 8:48 am
From: Dennis

On Mon, 17 Dec 2007 21:04:47 -0500, Marsha <mas@xeb.net> wrote:
>Does anyone really need a live tree that bad? Can't you make an
>artificial one just as lovely? I don't mean to offend anyone, but to
>cut down a live tree and then discard it when you're done just does not
>make sense to me, even if it is from a "tree farm".

By buying a real tree from my neighbor's lot, I am helping support a
small farmer in my community. Some of the money is used to plant and
maintain more trees.

Dennis (evil)
--
The honest man is the one who realizes that he cannot
consume more, in his lifetime, than he produces.

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 18 2007 9:44 am
From: Donna

Dennis <dgw80@hotmail.com> wrote in news:n8ufm3tfbhqt2kpl5v70l05hcd44lkjok2
@4ax.com:

> By buying a real tree from my neighbor's lot, I am helping support a
> small farmer in my community. Some of the money is used to plant and
> maintain more trees.

My brother in law has a Christmas tree farm. For every tree he cuts, he
plants another. It is self-sustaining now after several years. He also
reforested several acres on his propery and that doesn't get cut at all.

Responsible stewards of the land who live off the income from trees, be
they for Christmas, lumbar, or firewood, always replant what they take
down. I prefer my little fake Charlie Brown tree (it really is pitiful, but
I love it), but think if you do make certain you're buying from a re-
forestation type tree lot, you're not doing anything "wrong."

--
~Donna
http://www.frugalsewing.com
Reduce, reuse, recycle, re-create.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 18 2007 10:45 am
From: "Don K"

"Marsha" <mas@xeb.net> wrote in message news:fk79s2$u43$1@news.datemas.de...
> Does anyone really need a live tree that bad? Can't you make an artificial one just as
> lovely? I don't mean to offend anyone, but to cut down a live tree and then discard it
> when you're done just does not make sense to me, even if it is from a "tree farm".
>

The first year I bought my house I got a live tree with a rootbag.
I decorated it and kept it on the deck outside a sliding glass door
to the living room.

Then after the New Year, I planted it.

I also had sent off 5 or 10 bucks for some Norway Spruce seed.
I was surprised when I got a few thousand seeds in the mail!

I planted a couple hundred, but we moved before they grew to a
useable height.

Don

==============================================================================
TOPIC: buy cheap shoes (www.shoes-ec.com)
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/804d231d5db5f4d5?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 18 2007 9:19 am
From: xiaoshifeng029@gmail.com

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== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 18 2007 9:20 am
From: maryatbeach@webtv.net (Mary Mathews)

My sister's friend's TV exploded. The two ladies there were hurt and
taken to the hospital. The house burned to the ground. Does anyone here
know about exploding TV's and what we can do to prevent such an
accident? Thanks. Mary

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 18 2007 9:41 am
From: Donna

maryatbeach@webtv.net (Mary Mathews) wrote in news:1227-47680177-845
@storefull-3318.bay.webtv.net:

>
> My sister's friend's TV exploded. The two ladies there were hurt and
> taken to the hospital. The house burned to the ground. Does anyone here
> know about exploding TV's and what we can do to prevent such an
> accident? Thanks. Mary
>
>

No clue how to keep that from happening. My nephew had that happen once.
Fortunately for them, no one was hurt.

--
~Donna
http://www.frugalsewing.com
Reduce, reuse, recycle, re-create.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 18 2007 10:25 am
From: "Don K"

"Mary Mathews" <maryatbeach@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:1227-47680177-845@storefull-3318.bay.webtv.net...
>
> My sister's friend's TV exploded. The two ladies there were hurt and
> taken to the hospital. The house burned to the ground. Does anyone here
> know about exploding TV's and what we can do to prevent such an
> accident? Thanks. Mary

Is that the official analysis and not a gas leak or something?

Anyway, the glass picture tube could break or a power supply
capacitor could short out.

Both are pretty rare events IMO, but you could further minimize
risk by getting a TV with an LCD display rather than a picture tube.

Don

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TOPIC: Free $15.00 Dale and Thomas Gift Card
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 18 2007 11:10 am
From: clams casino

FreebiesPl.us wrote:

>Free $15.00 Dale and Thomas Gift Card
>http://www.freebiespl.us/?p=313
>
>

Why Does Cox.net continue to block your site as being a recognized SCAM?

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Auto insurance
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/a52e023f23586b3c?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 18 2007 11:21 am
From: clams casino

Melinda Meahan - take out TRASH to reply wrote:

> Alpha83 wrote:
>
>> Had an auto insurance question. My friend keeps his 2nd car in the
>> garage - does not drive it any more. Does he need to have insurance
>> on that. This is in CA.
>
>
> In California, your car has to have insurance to be registered. If it
> has nonoperative status, it does not need to be insured. Otherwise,
> the state will cancel or not renew your car's registration if you
> cancel the insurance and then it will cost bundles to get it insured
> again.

The "bundles" of extra cost usually applies to the complete cancellation
of all one's insurance. There should not be a premium to again insure
that car at a later time, provided the owner has maintained insurance on
another car. It should be the same as buying another second car. Of
course the insurance company is obligation to contact the MVD so they
can hold up registration on that vehicle.

==============================================================================

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Google Groups: http://groups.google.com?hl=en

14 new messages in 10 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Free CURE Magazine: 1-Year Subscription
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/feae49b02c89b5ef?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 17 2007 2:27 pm
From: "TheBestFreebies.com"

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TOPIC: Guardian: Carbon myths
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 17 2007 4:19 pm
From: Bill Rider

Don Klipstein wrote:
> In <C386FBC5.E9E1%faubillaud@hotmail.com>, Faubillaud wrote in part:
>
>> I like low-energy lightbulbs. In fact, I sell them at the local farmers'
>> market to offset my personal carbon sins. But even if a householder replaces
>> all their bulbs, the total impact on yearly electricity consumption is
>> likely to be no more than about 400 units (kWh) of electricity. A new plasma
>> TV bought at the same time will outweigh any energy savings. The government
>> talks about banning old-style bulbs, but no one dares mention the explosive
>> impact on energy consumption of the latest generation of large TVs and games
>> consoles. The power used by these monsters embarrasses their manufacturers
>> and the online brochures usually omit all details of electricity use. I
>> couldn't find a single retailer that dares to list the power consumption of
>> plasma TVs. The best rule for cutting home electricity consumption? Keep
>> your old TV. If you still feel the need to buy something, get a new
>> super-efficient fridge.
>
> Most flat-screen TVs are LCD ones, which consume about 1/2-2/3 as much
> power as CRT ones of the same size when the size is a common CRT size,
> 75-80% or so for larger sizes such as 32 inches. Plasma TVs consume only
> slightly more power than LCD ones of the same size.
>
> This link shows some sampling results indicating that plasma has about
> the same power consumption per unit screen area as a CRT, for larger
> sizes. Power consumption per unit screen area for CRT is greater in
> smaller sizes.
>
> The big factor explaining why plasma TVs consume more power is the fact
> that they tend to be big. Size matters!
>
> - Don Klipstein (don@misty.com)

I didn't see your link. Here's one:
http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-6475_7-6400401-3.html?tag=arw

There are 9 42" plasmas. They range from 188 to 464 Watts and average 286.

There are 4 42" LCDs. They range from 202 to 236 Watts and average 215.

I run my LCD computer monitor well below the maximum brightness unless
the room is full of sunlight. Maybe the power consumption of big TVs is
normally lower than the published figures.

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 17 2007 4:42 pm
From: nospam@nospam.com

On Mon, 17 Dec 2007 10:44:25 -0700, in misc.consumers.frugal-living timeOday
<timeOday-UNSPAM@theknack.net> wrote:

>Gordon wrote:
>> We are waiting out the spam storm
>>
>> "Mike M." <steam@shovel.com> wrote in
>> news:d%Z8j.23658$_m.21670@bignews4.bellsouth.net:
>>
>>> Haven't been reading/posting to the group all that frequently in
>>> recent months. But even considering the time of year, it still seems
>>> awfully quiet in here.
>>>
>>> Hell, I didn't even notice any posts from happy-go-lucky Rod.
>>> Something is definitely wrong. Nothing to read aside from
>>> spam/cross-posted messages.
>>>
>>> I downloaded 1,000 headers from my Outlook reader, but almost no
>>> poster names looked familiar. Same thing when I clicked the next
>>> 1,000 - nothing but spam and rambling, nonsensical cross-posted
>>> messages (appear to be a LOT more whackos cross-posting than normally
>>> the case.)
>>>
>>> Anyway, to keep things on topic, I'm saving money on Christmas
>>> expenses this year - and contributing to the "Green" movement at the
>>> same time - by cutting back on two things: no outside Christmas lights
>>> (or inside for that matter) and no Christmas tree. Just my small
>>> part/sacrifice, in the name of saving our planet...
>>>
>>> Mike
>>
>
>Yeah, this NG is really suffering with the spam lately, to the point of
>driving away the actual content.
>
>Now, about Christmas trees and the environment...
>For my own family, going to the national forest to cut a tree has become
>one of my favorite Christmas traditions. I do flinch as I see a
>procession of tree-laden cars leaving the forest. But then, pine is a
>fast-growing wood. I am strongly in favor of regulation to ensure the
>tree harvest is done in a sustainable way, and I think for the most part
>this is already the case. I believe each permit we buy from the forest
>service to harvest a tree pays for the planting of several more. Among
>trees purchased from lots, I think most are farmed.
>
>Granted, driving to the forest and cutting a tree still takes more fuel
>and money than going without.

Even though I live in logging town on the edge of a National
Forest I won't go cut a live tree. We have a fake tree and feel good about not
killing a tree each year. We see enough dead trees going past on the logging
train everyday.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 17 2007 6:04 pm
From: Marsha

timeOday wrote:
> Now, about Christmas trees and the environment...
> For my own family, going to the national forest to cut a tree has become
> one of my favorite Christmas traditions. I do flinch as I see a
> procession of tree-laden cars leaving the forest. But then, pine is a
> fast-growing wood. I am strongly in favor of regulation to ensure the
> tree harvest is done in a sustainable way, and I think for the most part
> this is already the case. I believe each permit we buy from the forest
> service to harvest a tree pays for the planting of several more. Among
> trees purchased from lots, I think most are farmed.

Does anyone really need a live tree that bad? Can't you make an
artificial one just as lovely? I don't mean to offend anyone, but to
cut down a live tree and then discard it when you're done just does not
make sense to me, even if it is from a "tree farm".

Marsha/Ohio

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TOPIC: Free Clorox Disinfecting Wipes
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 17 2007 4:52 pm
From: Crafting@gmail.com

Free Clorox Disinfecting Wipes
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TOPIC: Free Gladware Variety Pack
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== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 17 2007 4:55 pm
From: Crafting@gmail.com

Free Gladware Variety Pack

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== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 17 2007 10:14 pm
From: Donna

Crafting@gmail.com wrote in news:8705b7e0-cee9-4554-9a24-
c13a67f689ce@r29g2000hsg.googlegroups.com:

> http://www.frugalsimplicity.com/freegladware.html

frugalsimplicity.com is one big commercial. That's like frugal (NOT) spam,
doncha think?

--
~Donna
http://www.frugalsewing.com
Reduce, reuse, recycle, re-create.

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== 1 of 1 ==
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JEAN 1).E&D Jeans 2).BBC Jeans 3).BAPE Jeans 4).D&G Jeans 5).EVSIU
Jeans 6).Red monkey 7).COOGI Jeans
T-shirt 1).POLO 2007 polo(women) 2007 POLO IIII(Men) POLO (stripe)
polo (small )
2).Lacoste Lacoste (LONG) Lacoste (SHORT) 3).Name Brand shirt D&G
Shirt Giorgio Armani TN Shirt 4).BBC T-shirt 5).LRG & gina green
glalal 6).Triumvir 7).ED handy 8).Evsiu 9).R.M.B 10).CLOT
Burse & Handbag 1).LV Bag 2).Gucci Bag 3).Dior Bag 4).Chanel Bag
5).Fendi Bag 6).Coach Bag 7).Burberrys Bag 8).Prada Bag 9).Man Leisure
Bag 11).D&G bag 12).nike bag 13).Wallet 14).Suitcase
Electronics 1).Vertu Mobile 2).New iphone Mobile(apple iphones,apple
iphones,apple iphones,apple iphones) 3).Nokia Mobile(Nokia N95,Nokia
N95 Nokia N95 Nokia N95 Nokia N93,Nokia N70,Nokia N92,Nokia 8800)
4).moto Mobile 5).PSP Game & memory card 6).Sony Mobile 7).Samsung
Mobile 8).Ipod nano 9).Sony PS3 10).Laptops IBM laptops DELL laptops
Sony laptops ASUS laptops
CAP 1).ED Hardy Cap 2).New Bape & NY Cap 3).RMC Cap 4).New era NBA
5).F1 6).Chanel 7).D&G 8).gucci 9).LV 10).Prada 11).PUMA 12).wool
WATCH 1).Rolex 2).Omega 3).Cartier 4).Chanel 5).Piaget 6).Breitling
7).Bvlgari 8).Corum
Sunglasses 1).Gucci Sunglasses 2).D&G Sunglasses 3).Dior Sunglasses
4).LV Sunglasses 5).Chanel Sunglasses 6).Prada Sunglasses 7).Versace
Sunglasses 8).Giorgio Armani
Strap 1).Bape Strap 2).D&G Strap 3).Gucci Strap 4).LV Strap 5).Scarf
Other 1).Lighter

size chart
Men Size:
US: 7 8 8.5 9 9.5 10 10.5 11 11.5 12 13 14 15
UK: 6 7 7.5 8 8.5 9 9.5 10 10.5 11 12 13 14
EUR: 40 41 42 42.5 43 44 44.5 45 45.5 46 47.5 48 49
Women Size:
US: 5 5.5 6 6.5 7 7.5 8 8.5
UK: 2.5 3 3.5 4 4.5 5 5.5 6
EUR: 35.5 36 36.5 37.5 38 38.5 39 40

Kid's
US: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 7.5 8 8.5 9 9.5 10 10.5 11 11.5 12 12.5 13 13.5
UK: 13 1 2 3 4 5 6 6.5 7 7.5 8 8.5 9 9.5 10 10.5 11 11.5 12 12.5
EUR:17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 24.5 25 25.5 26 26.5 27 27.5 28 29 30 30.5
31

Clothing Size:
S M L XL XXL XXXL XXXXL XXXXXL

7.because the space of the website is limited,we can also supply many
other products which be not showed out in our site. if you have the
photos of the products you need , we are pleasure to supply for your
orders.
And our company can supply for our customers ,as follow:
1. top quality.all our products have top quality.
2. most rational price. we offer the most competitive price to you to
open your market. So today most of our products have sold well in the
America, Europe, Middle East, Southeast Asia etc..
3. safe and fast shipment. As different country you are in, we will
deliver the products to you by different ways and pledge to arrive to
your address 100%.and we will send the products to you within 24h
after we get your payment.
4.many products in stock. We have many products in stock and kinds of
size you need , also include kid's.
5.our credit. If the products can be not delivered to your address as
our reason, we will refund the money you paid.
Hope sincerely to have glad and long term business relationship with
you.
If you are interested in our products and have any problem, welcome
to
contact us.
Please trust us , we will be your best choice !!!
Website : http://www.fashion-sky.com
MSN and E-mail: fashion-sky@hotmail.com
Yahoo ID:mallinchina@yahoo.com.cn
Michael
Fashion Footwear Industrial Co.,Ltd.(Fujian,CHINA)

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 17 2007 8:53 pm
From: fashion-sky.001@hotmail.com

Clothing Size:
S M L XL XXL XXXL XXXXL XXXXXL

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 17 2007 8:53 pm
From: fashion-sky.001@hotmail.com

Clothing Size:
S M L XL XXL XXXL XXXXL XXXXXL

==============================================================================
TOPIC: free energy drink sample
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/60f7844545cd20a9?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 17 2007 9:35 pm
From: frank

no strings go here https://www. advocare. com/0712282/ and click on
contact distributor email me your contact info and i will send you a
pouch of spark energy drink free. i have enough confidence in this
drink that I am giving away samples at my own expense. While you are
there take a look at the products.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: www.china-dropshipper.com
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/51289b4c65f040f1?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 17 2007 10:47 pm
From: "barbara.an2008"

www.China-dvd-cd.com. is experienced wholesaler and provide dropship
service to

worldwide,no min order,accept credit card.

We have lots regular customers from all worldwide(UK,USA,AU,EUROPE
COUNTRY,SOUTH AFRICA and

more),most of them are wholesaler/dropshipper,specially EBAY RESELLER
or WEBSITE

OWNER.Following the company expanding,more products such as Designer
Handbag,Brand

Shoes,electron products Belts brand watches etc. have been updated to
bring more profit

and business opporunity for customers.Customers are always highly
impressed about our

special features below:
1.Safe and Fast shipping
2.Honest and Professional service team
3.AAAAA+ quality product
4.Profitable price
5.NEWEST RELEASED/hot/rare product
6.Unique DROPSHIP procedure online
7.Safe payment method such as "Credit Card Online"
8."Wholesale Alot"and "Special price" for new customer
9.Special VIP Classification system for regular customer
10.Reselling suggestion,actual pics provided for resellers

Our productions :

Close To Home Complete Season 1-2 Boxset

www.china-dropshipper.com/
www.hsshopping.com

/shirley@hsshopping.com
Close To Home Complete Season 1-2 Boxset

www.china-dropshipper.com/
www.hsshopping.com

/shirley@hsshopping.com
English Version Transformers DVD 20th Anniversary 15 DVD
www.china-dropshipper.com/

www.hsshopping.com /shirley@hsshopping.com
DVD9 24 Hours Complete Season 1-6 Ultimate Collection

Frugal Living

Blog Archive

Tuesday, December 18, 2007

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