Frugal Living: Dec 27, 2010

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

* Lost $152 on Trafone service renewal - 14 messages, 7 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/6d1408373168760d?hl=en
* What happens when Mexicans pick your vegetables - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/bf50c3851b9e9780?hl=en
* Ping Don Klipstein LED dimming - 5 messages, 3 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/75775e784bd90da2?hl=en
* FORD EXPEDITION - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/49737c8d62c28093?hl=en
* free shipping PAYPAL payment wholesale brand WATCH online (ROLEX,OMEGA,
CHANEL,LV,CARTIER,IWC,GUCCI,RADO AND SO ON) http://www.24hour-buy.com/ - 1
messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/e6406c68e21c1ea3?hl=en
* whlolesale new men's clothing wholesale Ed hardy double hoodies - 1 messages,
1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/ec77021dcc188e76?hl=en
* paypal wholesale all brand(ugg boots timberland boots,munich shoes,Franklin
Marshall hoody,Moncler eiderdown,handbags watch,jeans,jersey,t-shirts,shirts,
cap,glasses )and so on 。 http://www.24hours-online.com - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/7bee2344841ece5f?hl=en
* Would you kill God if you saw him? - 2 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/7691602842cda55b?hl=en

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Lost $152 on Trafone service renewal
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/6d1408373168760d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 14 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 26 2010 9:53 pm
From: DevilsPGD

In message <8nppbiFa3sU1@mid.individual.net> "Rod Speed"
<rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> was claimed to have wrote:

>DevilsPGD wrote
>> Terri Smith <ts8 at soalex.us> wrote
>
>>> Forgot to mention 'nuther problem with how TracFone handled this.
>
>>> Typ use TF when I'm meeting someone. Found problem when went
>>> to make a somewhat urgent call. Apparently phone been disabled
>>> for more then a month. I never got any notification via home phone,
>>> email, or by letter and the phone display still indicates it's in service.
>
>>> For a company, that must know how people rely on cell phones, to
>>> disable a phone without advanced warning is bad. But to not even
>>> send a followup note is amazing.
>
>> It's almost like they don't care about you or your money.
>
>Or someone has been stupid enough to implement a system
>to stop the droids reversing errors like that so they cant give
>handouts to people they know by rorting the system.

"It's almost like they don't care about you or your money." would seem
to apply, possibly doubly so if the system were intentionally designed
this way.

== 2 of 14 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 27 2010 7:10 am
From: "h"

"Bill" <billrubin@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:if8fvk$a06$2@news.eternal-september.org...
> Danny, aren't you in New York? I challenge you to call the NY Attorney
> General's office and get action on a single consumer's complaint. I've
> written to the NY AG's office in the past and never gotten a response.
> Probably works better in smaller states with AG offices interested in
> helping the individual consumer.
>

I've written 5 or 6 times over the years and the NYAG's office always
responds. I always send a letter to the company with "cc: AG's office" on
it. That's usually enough. In only one case did the company not immediately
contact me and make it right. I sued that guy in Small Claims Court and won.
He did not, of course, pay me the $5k. The AG's office investigated him for
fraud (home repair scam) and fined him all sorts of money and required
restitution, which he also didn't pay.

== 3 of 14 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 27 2010 8:18 am
From: Vic Smith

On Mon, 27 Dec 2010 10:10:31 -0500, "h" <tmclone@searchmachine.com>
wrote:

>
>"Bill" <billrubin@prodigy.net> wrote in message
>news:if8fvk$a06$2@news.eternal-september.org...
>> Danny, aren't you in New York? I challenge you to call the NY Attorney
>> General's office and get action on a single consumer's complaint. I've
>> written to the NY AG's office in the past and never gotten a response.
>> Probably works better in smaller states with AG offices interested in
>> helping the individual consumer.
>>
>
>I've written 5 or 6 times over the years and the NYAG's office always
>responds. I always send a letter to the company with "cc: AG's office" on
>it. That's usually enough. In only one case did the company not immediately
>contact me and make it right. I sued that guy in Small Claims Court and won.
>He did not, of course, pay me the $5k. The AG's office investigated him for
>fraud (home repair scam) and fined him all sorts of money and required
>restitution, which he also didn't pay.
>

My ma got taken by a company infested with chimney shakers and the AG
got her money back. Illinois.
Don't know if my big BIL paying them a visit helped or not.
But I give the AG the credit.
If it's a fly-by night outfit sometimes your money is just gone.

--Vic

== 4 of 14 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 27 2010 11:07 am
From: "krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz"

On Mon, 27 Dec 2010 10:10:31 -0500, "h" <tmclone@searchmachine.com> wrote:

Doesn't sound like the AG's intervention was very useful.

== 5 of 14 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 27 2010 11:28 am
From: "Rod Speed"

DevilsPGD wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>> DevilsPGD wrote
>>> Terri Smith <ts8 at soalex.us> wrote

>>>> Forgot to mention 'nuther problem with how TracFone handled this.

>>>> Typ use TF when I'm meeting someone. Found problem when went
>>>> to make a somewhat urgent call. Apparently phone been disabled
>>>> for more then a month. I never got any notification via home phone,
>>>> email, or by letter and the phone display still indicates it's in service.

>>>> For a company, that must know how people rely on cell phones, to
>>>> disable a phone without advanced warning is bad. But to not even
>>>> send a followup note is amazing.

>>> It's almost like they don't care about you or your money.

>> Or someone has been stupid enough to implement a system
>> to stop the droids reversing errors like that so they cant give
>> handouts to people they know by rorting the system.

> "It's almost like they don't care about you or your money." would seem to apply,

Nope.

> possibly doubly so if the system were intentionally designed this way.

Thats not not caring about you or your money, its a stupid attempt
to try to minimise the theft of your money by dishonest droids.

If they didnt care about your money, they wouldnt bother to prevent theft.

== 6 of 14 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 27 2010 1:23 pm
From: " Terri Smith"

"Bill" <billrubin@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:if8frn$a06$1@news.eternal-september.org...
On 12/23/2010 3:40 PM, Vic Smith wrote:

BTW, Terri, your credit card company is not Visa, at least not the
people you deal with on disputes. Presumably you contacted the bank who
issued the card, someone like Chase or Citi and they resolved the issue
for you. Also, did you read the letter carefully? Did it say that the
credit is permanent or that it is credited temporarily while the dispute
is investigated? How long ago was it that you opened the dispute?

Bill
========================================

You are correct Bill, it is with the Bank and it is a temporary credit
while the dispute is open. What was interesting though, is Bank had me on
the phone for the initial call. They said they had a special phone number
for tracfone and a speical code that would cut thru to the top. They TF rep
that answered the call was not able to answer the Banks basic questioin.
After a half-hour Bank guy gave up and said he issue the credit -- but TF
has 60 days to respond.

Terri

== 7 of 14 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 27 2010 1:26 pm
From: " Terri Smith"

"DevilsPGD" <Still-Just-A-Rat-In-A-Cage@crazyhat.net> wrote in message
news:9b7gh6157e75r0nksajtj0v3cf1d6gfvsu@4ax.com...
In message <if8frn$a06$1@news.eternal-september.org> Bill
<billrubin@prodigy.net> was claimed to have wrote:

>BTW, Terri, your credit card company is not Visa, at least not the
>people you deal with on disputes. Presumably you contacted the bank who
>issued the card, someone like Chase or Citi and they resolved the issue
>for you. Also, did you read the letter carefully? Did it say that the
>credit is permanent or that it is credited temporarily while the dispute
>is investigated?

It doesn't really matter, the customer will win the dispute (if they
push, anyway). The customer paid for service, the company is now
demanding more money to deliver the service for which the customer
already paid.

=========================================

While I may get money back from bank for the recent add'l service time I
bought, the phone still we be disabled. So i will be out the cost of the
phone and more importantly will have lost the phone number that a lot of
people have in their directories. Also losing a lot of carry over minutes.

== 8 of 14 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 27 2010 2:06 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

Terri Smith wrote
> DevilsPGD <Still-Just-A-Rat-In-A-Cage@crazyhat.net> wrote
>> Bill <billrubin@prodigy.net> wrote

>>> BTW, Terri, your credit card company is not Visa, at least not the
>>> people you deal with on disputes. Presumably you contacted the bank
>>> who issued the card, someone like Chase or Citi and they resolved
>>> the issue for you. Also, did you read the letter carefully? Did it
>>> say that the credit is permanent or that it is credited temporarily
>>> while the dispute is investigated?

>> It doesn't really matter, the customer will win the dispute (if they push,
>> anyway). The customer paid for service, the company is now demanding
>> more money to deliver the service for which the customer already paid.

> While I may get money back from bank for the recent add'l service
> time I bought, the phone still we be disabled. So i will be out the
> cost of the phone and more importantly will have lost the phone
> number that a lot of people have in their directories. Also losing
> a lot of carry over minutes.

Thats one area where the small claims court may well be able to get a better result.

Much more effort required to go that route tho.

== 9 of 14 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 27 2010 3:29 pm
From: Robert Neville

" Terri Smith" <ts8 at soalex.us> wrote:

> They TF rep
>that answered the call was not able to answer the Banks basic questioin.
>After a half-hour Bank guy gave up and said he issue the credit -- but TF
>has 60 days to respond.

The way oit works at the banks I'm familiar with is that you get the temp credit
so you don't need to pay right away or get hit with a late fee, and as you
indicated, the company (TF) gets 60 days to respond to the potential chargeback.
If they don't, the temp credit becomes permanent.

If they do respond (and all TF has to say is that they've looked into it and the
charge is legit) the temp credit goes away. Unless you happen to be a very good
customer of the bank, they aren't going to make any attempt to look into the
circumstances behind the charge or challenge TF.

== 10 of 14 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 27 2010 6:58 pm
From: Vic Smith

On Mon, 27 Dec 2010 16:23:29 -0500, " Terri Smith" <ts8 at soalex.us>
wrote:
>
>You are correct Bill, it is with the Bank and it is a temporary credit
>while the dispute is open. What was interesting though, is Bank had me on
>the phone for the initial call. They said they had a special phone number
>for tracfone and a speical code that would cut thru to the top. They TF rep
>that answered the call was not able to answer the Banks basic questioin.
>After a half-hour Bank guy gave up and said he issue the credit -- but TF
>has 60 days to respond.
>
I had a similar experience with Visa and AOL on a 3-way call.
There was no 60 day deal though.
I could never get through to AOL on the phone to cancel, but the Visa
rep got right to them.
Got it canceled and a month's credit on the spot.

--Vic

== 11 of 14 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 27 2010 8:39 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

Robert Neville wrote
> Terri Smith <ts8 at soalex.us> wrote

>> They TF rep that answered the call was not able to answer the
>> Banks basic questioin. After a half-hour Bank guy gave up and
>> said he issue the credit -- but TF has 60 days to respond.

> The way oit works at the banks I'm familiar with is that you get the
> temp credit so you don't need to pay right away or get hit with a
> late fee, and as you indicated, the company (TF) gets 60 days to
> respond to the potential chargeback. If they don't, the temp credit
> becomes permanent.

> If they do respond (and all TF has to say is that they've looked
> into it and the charge is legit) the temp credit goes away.

Thats just plain wrong when they cant demonstate that they reversed their
error of the initial erroneous crediting of more minutes than was paid for.

> Unless you happen to be a very good customer of the bank, they aren't going to
> make any attempt to look into the circumstances behind the charge or challenge TF.

Wrong. When TF cant explain why they didnt do the obvious thing of reversing THEIR error, they're fucked.

== 12 of 14 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 27 2010 10:21 pm
From: DevilsPGD

In message <49kih6po8d7n1k69uavsq4lsab9apalu02@4ax.com> Vic Smith
<thismailautodeleted@comcast.net> was claimed to have wrote:

>On Mon, 27 Dec 2010 16:23:29 -0500, " Terri Smith" <ts8 at soalex.us>
>wrote:
>>
>>You are correct Bill, it is with the Bank and it is a temporary credit
>>while the dispute is open. What was interesting though, is Bank had me on
>>the phone for the initial call. They said they had a special phone number
>>for tracfone and a speical code that would cut thru to the top. They TF rep
>>that answered the call was not able to answer the Banks basic questioin.
>>After a half-hour Bank guy gave up and said he issue the credit -- but TF
>>has 60 days to respond.
>>
>I had a similar experience with Visa and AOL on a 3-way call.
>There was no 60 day deal though.
>I could never get through to AOL on the phone to cancel, but the Visa
>rep got right to them.
>Got it canceled and a month's credit on the spot.

Whoever has the money has the power. Once the company no longer has the
money, they suddenly have an incentive to talk to you. This goes doubly
so since banks are usually happy to tack on "investigation" fees when a
chargeback is successful.

== 13 of 14 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 27 2010 10:21 pm
From: DevilsPGD

In message <328ih61l06sf43ftqm7n67ahbftfh8ufqf@4ax.com> Robert Neville
<dont@bother.com> was claimed to have wrote:

>If they do respond (and all TF has to say is that they've looked into it and the
>charge is legit) the temp credit goes away. Unless you happen to be a very good
>customer of the bank, they aren't going to make any attempt to look into the
>circumstances behind the charge or challenge TF.

The bank has no legal choice in the matter unless Tracfone has a
signature. Even then, if you're claiming that the service was not
rendered, the benefit of the doubt (legally) goes to the card holder.

Both Tracfone and potentially the bank are free to sue the cardholder if
they believe any aspect of the chargeback is fraudulent, but assuming
the cardholder acts in good faith, there isn't much of a threat here.

== 14 of 14 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 27 2010 10:21 pm
From: DevilsPGD

In message <ifaa96$m8$1@speranza.aioe.org> "h"
<tmclone@searchmachine.com> was claimed to have wrote:

>I've written 5 or 6 times over the years and the NYAG's office always
>responds. I always send a letter to the company with "cc: AG's office" on
>it. That's usually enough. In only one case did the company not immediately
>contact me and make it right. I sued that guy in Small Claims Court and won.
>He did not, of course, pay me the $5k. The AG's office investigated him for
>fraud (home repair scam) and fined him all sorts of money and required
>restitution, which he also didn't pay.

Reminds me of George Carlin's bit on voting: If you'd stayed home and
masturbated instead, then when you got done masturbating you'd at least
have something to show for it.

In other words, contacting the AG didn't appear to make much of a
difference in the situation you described.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: What happens when Mexicans pick your vegetables
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/bf50c3851b9e9780?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 27 2010 12:47 am
From: DCI <50bjdk@gmail.com>

On Dec 26, 5:54 am, brad herschel <bradhersc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Dec 24, 9:30 am, Julian Assange <lilhor...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Well, if they're LEAFY vegetables, pissed-off illegals wipe their shit-
> > slick asses and anuses with spinach, lettuce, and other greens -- then
> > put the pooped-up stuff directly onto the truck. And then it's
> > eventually shipped to your grocery store.
>
> > You like?
>
> > So, for those Mexican outlaws, it's "Escherichia coli to you,
> > Gringos!"
>
> >http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/cidrap/content/fs/food-disease/news/dec2310...
>
> "A good illegal alien is a dead illegal alien". No crime, no disease,
> no filth, no decay,
> no "anchor babies". Deport them all.
>
> specimans: http://www.newnation.org/ New Nation News

What is needed in updating the immigration laws is a fair, legal ad
orderly system, not some crack-pot political shenanigans. One
essential fact seems to elude critics: a very high percentage of
illegal migrants, especially the young folks, a hard working,
industrious people who want a chance.

DCI

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Ping Don Klipstein LED dimming
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/75775e784bd90da2?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 27 2010 4:27 am
From: Jeff Thies

On 12/26/2010 4:31 PM, Don Klipstein wrote:
> In article<if2t8a$dq5$1@news.albasani.net>, Jeff Thies wrote:
>
>> Hey Don,
>>
>> What do you know about what circuitry is in the commercial LED lamps
>> and dimming compatibility.
>>
>> For those who don't know, Don Klipstein knows more about lighting
>> than anyone I know of:
>>
>> http://members.misty.com/don/ledx.html
>>
>> We'll see if he is around and interested.
>
> Sadly, I have yet to look inside any retail-available LED lights over 2
> watts, nor most 2 watts and under. I don't remember too well what the
> packages that I looked at so far say.
>
> Best I can say is, look at the fine print on the packages for
> compatibility with dimmers.
>
> The Philips ones at Home Depot *may* be a good bet. However, I did
> little more than glance at their photometric and color specifications
> after getting "sticker shock".
>
> So far, I am seeing only here-and-there applications where LED "bulbs"
> appear to me more appropriate than CFLs or incandescents, mostly for light
> output near or less than that of a 25 watt incandescent and with a lot of
> "on time" per day.
>
> One more thing: Most white LED units claiming 100,000 hour life
> expectancy, especially cheaper and non-major brand ones, significantly
> fade in 4,000 to 50,000 hours. I generally recommend green or blue LEDs
> for nightlights. Any LED "security lighting" that must be at least
> basically white should be by or have LEDs made by *major* brands of
> "lighting grade" LEDs, such as Philips/Philips-Lumileds, Cree, Nichia,
> Osram/Sylvania, Citizen/Cecol, and the like.
> Also, the usual "bullet shape" low power LEDs are unlikely to get past
> 10,000 hours before significantly fading if they are white unless they are
> greatly underpowered.

Thanks for joining in. I hope it is more joy than aggravation. I take it
that the failure is with the phosphors and not with the junction
generating the UV? Interesting as most of us had been thinking of LEDs
as being forever. I have noticed that many of the new LED traffic lights
have sections out. I don't know whether that is a circuitry break or
whether an LED actually failed. In the environment they are in I would
think connection failure from thermal cycling. Either internal or external.

Jeff

I know of one LED nightlight "bulb" that does make
> use of underpowering to achieve true long life from cheap white low power
> LEDs. That is the Feit 3-LED candelabra base one.
>
> One more thing: For outdoor or basement nightlighting or security
> lighting, I strongly recommend that any white lights (LED or otherwise)
> be of cooler color (more bluish, higher color temperature). This is
> because night vision is significant in such dimmer lighting environments,
> even if colors and sharp outlines are visible. A spectrum richer in
> mid-green to mid-blue favors greater illumination in this case.

== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 27 2010 8:54 am
From: don@manx.misty.com (Don Klipstein)

In <6bpfh6dcm13k5cv2a4v3o7g87r1asn6ca8@4ax.com>, krw@att.bizzzzzzzz wrote:
>On Sun, 26 Dec 2010 23:56:01 +0000 (UTC), don@manx.misty.com (Don
>Klipstein) wrote:
>
>>In <8hhfh6hrcacca4nr9n7hpauo92qpd0nnek@4ax.com>, krw@att.bizzzzzz wrote:
>>>On Sun, 26 Dec 2010 21:31:57 +0000 (UTC), don@manx.misty.com (Don
>>>Klipstein) wrote:
>>>
>>>> One more thing: For outdoor or basement nightlighting or security
>>>>lighting, I strongly recommend that any white lights (LED or otherwise)
>>>>be of cooler color (more bluish, higher color temperature). This is
>>>>because night vision is significant in such dimmer lighting environments,
>>>>even if colors and sharp outlines are visible. A spectrum richer in
>>>>mid-green to mid-blue favors greater illumination in this case.
>>>
>>>For indoor, basement, indoor security, and night-lights, I'd think you'd
>>>want more of a red so you don't spoil your night vision. ...or maybe a
>>>white photo-flash and cover *your* eyes, while the no-good gets blinded.
>>>;-)
>>
>> I've tried all sorts of things for seeing around with little light.
>>My experience says to make use of night vision. A cool white LED can
>>illuminate a room to extent that I can walk around and see everything,
>>using a couple to a few percent as much light as if I used red light.
>
>That's interesting and a bit counterintuitive. I can see fine around the
>bedroom, at night, with only the backlight of my XM radio but it's quite
>bright. I guess it's not enough to trigger the iris but still make use of the
>higher sensitivity wavelengths. OTOH, for astronomical viewing (and
>submarines ;) one uses red lights.

Oh yes, I do remember my stretch of time when I was into astronomy.

Red lights were used to see things other than stars, such as star maps,
so as to see in high resolution (from photopic vision) with light that
does not overload and reduce sensitivity of scotopic vision.

I would think the requirements of nightlights are usually different. I
don't see the need to be able to read a newspaper - only to recognize it,
to be able to read the name of the newspaper. There is also the fact
that I don't mind having my night vision attenuated a bit by using a light
that makes use of it for this purpose. I have some green and blue LEDs
that can illuminate a largish living room that well to me with maybe .1
milliamp (and full dark adaptation), though I would only count on low
current performance good enough to do that with .25 milliamp.
--
- Don Klipstein (don@misty.com)

== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 27 2010 9:02 am
From: don@manx.misty.com (Don Klipstein)

In <ifa0nt$i6l$1@news.albasani.net>, Jeff Thies wrote in part:
>On 12/26/2010 4:31 PM, Don Klipstein wrote (in part)
<Lots of editing for space>

>> One more thing: Most white LED units claiming 100,000 hour life
>> expectancy, especially cheaper and non-major brand ones, significantly
>> fade in 4,000 to 50,000 hours. I generally recommend green or blue LEDs
>> for nightlights. Any LED "security lighting" that must be at least
>> basically white should be by or have LEDs made by *major* brands of
>> "lighting grade" LEDs, such as Philips/Philips-Lumileds, Cree, Nichia,
>> Osram/Sylvania, Citizen/Cecol, and the like.
>> Also, the usual "bullet shape" low power LEDs are unlikely to get past
>> 10,000 hours before significantly fading if they are white unless they are
>> greatly underpowered.
>
>Thanks for joining in. I hope it is more joy than aggravation. I take it
>that the failure is with the phosphors and not with the junction
>generating the UV? Interesting as most of us had been thinking of LEDs
>as being forever. I have noticed that many of the new LED traffic lights
>have sections out. I don't know whether that is a circuitry break or
>whether an LED actually failed. In the environment they are in I would
>think connection failure from thermal cycling. Either internal or external.

White LEDs fade mainly, almost entirely, from the phosphor degrading.

BTW, the usual white LEDs have phosphor over blue LED chips, not UV
ones.

I am also noticing many LED traffic lights with some LEDs out. That
appears to me to be, as you say, broken connections. I don't know where
they're breaking. One thing I notice is that affected LEDs are
disproportionally at the edges of the traffic lights around where I live.
This makes me suspect stress concentrated at the edge of a PCB that the
LEDs are on, so I wonder how well the PCBs are fitted to what they are
mounted to.
--
- Don Klipstein (don@misty.com)

== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 27 2010 11:41 am
From: "krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz"

On Mon, 27 Dec 2010 16:54:10 +0000 (UTC), don@manx.misty.com (Don Klipstein)
wrote:

>In <6bpfh6dcm13k5cv2a4v3o7g87r1asn6ca8@4ax.com>, krw@att.bizzzzzzzz wrote:
>>On Sun, 26 Dec 2010 23:56:01 +0000 (UTC), don@manx.misty.com (Don
>>Klipstein) wrote:
>>
>>>In <8hhfh6hrcacca4nr9n7hpauo92qpd0nnek@4ax.com>, krw@att.bizzzzzz wrote:
>>>>On Sun, 26 Dec 2010 21:31:57 +0000 (UTC), don@manx.misty.com (Don
>>>>Klipstein) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> One more thing: For outdoor or basement nightlighting or security
>>>>>lighting, I strongly recommend that any white lights (LED or otherwise)
>>>>>be of cooler color (more bluish, higher color temperature). This is
>>>>>because night vision is significant in such dimmer lighting environments,
>>>>>even if colors and sharp outlines are visible. A spectrum richer in
>>>>>mid-green to mid-blue favors greater illumination in this case.
>>>>
>>>>For indoor, basement, indoor security, and night-lights, I'd think you'd
>>>>want more of a red so you don't spoil your night vision. ...or maybe a
>>>>white photo-flash and cover *your* eyes, while the no-good gets blinded.
>>>>;-)
>>>
>>> I've tried all sorts of things for seeing around with little light.
>>>My experience says to make use of night vision. A cool white LED can
>>>illuminate a room to extent that I can walk around and see everything,
>>>using a couple to a few percent as much light as if I used red light.
>>
>>That's interesting and a bit counterintuitive. I can see fine around the
>>bedroom, at night, with only the backlight of my XM radio but it's quite
>>bright. I guess it's not enough to trigger the iris but still make use of the
>>higher sensitivity wavelengths. OTOH, for astronomical viewing (and
>>submarines ;) one uses red lights.
>
> Oh yes, I do remember my stretch of time when I was into astronomy.
>
> Red lights were used to see things other than stars, such as star maps,
>so as to see in high resolution (from photopic vision) with light that
>does not overload and reduce sensitivity of scotopic vision.
>
> I would think the requirements of nightlights are usually different. I
>don't see the need to be able to read a newspaper - only to recognize it,
>to be able to read the name of the newspaper. There is also the fact
>that I don't mind having my night vision attenuated a bit by using a light
>that makes use of it for this purpose. I have some green and blue LEDs
>that can illuminate a largish living room that well to me with maybe .1
>milliamp (and full dark adaptation), though I would only count on low
>current performance good enough to do that with .25 milliamp.

I still don't want to lose "night sight" when I stumble from one room into the
next, at night. The light doesn't alter my Braille ability, though. ;-)

== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 27 2010 3:58 pm
From: don@manx.misty.com (Don Klipstein)

In <1sqhh6p1nrtq13sv4bjfno1bkaq1396mkr@4ax.com>, krw@att.bizzzzzzz wrote:
>On 12/27/2010 16:54:10 +0 UTC, don@manx.misty.com (Don Klipstein) wrote:
>
>>In <6bpfh6dcm13k5cv2a4v3o7g87r1asn6ca8@4ax.com>, krw@att.bizzzzz wrote:
>>>On Sun, 26 Dec 2010 23:56:01 +0000 (UTC), don@manx.misty.com (Don
>>>Klipstein) wrote:

>>>> I've tried all sorts of things for seeing around with little light.
>>>>My experience says to make use of night vision. A cool white LED can
>>>>illuminate a room to extent that I can walk around and see everything,
>>>>using a couple to a few percent as much light as if I used red light.
>>>
>>>That's interesting and a bit counterintuitive. I can see fine around the
>>>bedroom, at night, with only the backlight of my XM radio but it's quite
>>>bright. I guess it's not enough to trigger the iris but still make use
>>>of the higher sensitivity wavelengths. OTOH, for astronomical viewing
>>>(and submarines ;) one uses red lights.
>>
>> Oh yes, I do remember my stretch of time when I was into astronomy.
>>
>> Red lights were used to see things other than stars, such as star maps,
>>so as to see in high resolution (from photopic vision) with light that
>>does not overload and reduce sensitivity of scotopic vision.
>>
>> I would think the requirements of nightlights are usually different. I
>>don't see the need to be able to read a newspaper - only to recognize it,
>>to be able to read the name of the newspaper. There is also the fact
>>that I don't mind having my night vision attenuated a bit by using a light
>>that makes use of it for this purpose. I have some green and blue LEDs
>>that can illuminate a largish living room that well to me with maybe .1
>>milliamp (and full dark adaptation), though I would only count on low
>>current performance good enough to do that with .25 milliamp.
>
>I still don't want to lose "night sight" when I stumble from one room
>into the next, at night. The light doesn't alter my Braille ability,
>though. ;-)

I'm thinking that illuminating a largish living room with one of my
favorite green or blue LEDs at .1-.25 mA will be low enough on blasting my
night vision for me to still have a majority of it, probably around/over
75% of it.

Then again, I can illuminate all rooms and the basement of a McMansion
that brightly with 50 milliwatts for the whole house. :)
(Not that I get a good ROI for doing so, in comparison to getting
commercially available LED nightlights using ~100 times as much power
and producing a few times more light.)
--
- Don Klipstein (don@misty.com)

==============================================================================
TOPIC: FORD EXPEDITION
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/49737c8d62c28093?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 27 2010 10:17 am
From: Ira Egan

Click here to enter:

>>> http://search365.com.cm/3/ford-expedition <<<

.
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What would be your most likely reaction?

------------------------------------------------------

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== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Dec 27 2010 9:17 pm
From: don@manx.misty.com (Don Klipstein)

In <5c07af9b-dbe3-47fc-8103-5008401c7378@32g2000yqz.googlegroups.com>, His
Highness the TibetanMonkey, the prophet of the deep jungle wrote:

>The feelings for and against God run high everywhere. Many thank him
>for having created this miserable life, while others want to kill him
>for the same reasons...
>
>Maybe you feel he killed your mother or something and the animal
>instinct inside you just couldn't cope anymore. Or suppose it's either
>you or him. Or perhaps you just choose to slap him.
>
>What would be your most likely reaction?

How about those who subscribe to a faith where God came to Earth only to
be murdered?

I am even nominally a member of a specific congregation and its specific
"Protestant denomination" of Christianity. My congregation and a few
others in the same Protestant denomination even join to form a group in
Philadelphia's Gay Pride parade! (Get to by public transit - especially
subway!)
--
- Don Klipstein (don@misty.com)

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