Frugal Living: Feb 15, 2011

Tuesday, February 15, 2011

misc.consumers.frugal-living - 18 new messages in 8 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

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TOPIC: Should America Euthanize the Old People and Homeless?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/8db50c56e106a028?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Sun, Feb 13 2011 11:42 pm
From: Chief Thracian

On Sun, 6 Feb 2011 02:57:31 -0800 (PST), Nuxx Bar
<derderderder619@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Why not just euthanise all the religious fundamentalists, homophobes,
>lying self-serving drug warriors, racists, violent criminals, and
>police officers who abuse their power (of course most people who are
>one of those will be at least one other as well)?

Thanks for including homophobes. This country needs to stop excusing
them base on their religious belief. Otherwise, any kind of hatred and
violence will eventually be justified by virtue of religion.

Continuing to allow homophobia is the weak link that eventually allows
all other bigotries to break through the chain.

== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 14 2011 4:18 pm
From: "His Highness the TibetanMonkey, originator of the Stop the Bullshit
Campaign"

On Feb 14, 10:27 am, mischastar <mischastar.79f3...@cyclebanter.com>
wrote:
> 'Chief Thracian[_2_ Wrote:
>
>
>
> > ;2168616']On Fri, 4 Feb 2011 16:10:49 +1100, "Rod Speed"
> > rod.speed....@gmail.com wrote:
> > --
> > I'm a poor person,-
>
> > Your problem.-
>
> > No, it's a social problem, The answer is proving all citizens with
> > unversal health care and housing, guaranteed living income (whether
> > one is presently employed or not)...in a nutshell: socialized
> > democracy in the fashion of western Europe.
>
> > Your callous response is typical of Darwinian elitists...who, I might
> > add, have grossly distorted Charles Darwin's theories in order to
> > justify the promotion of a brutal and ignorant ideology.
> > -
> > Trivial to avoid, dont get involved in mortages you cant cover.-
>
> > Many people become homeless through no fault of their own.
> > Homelessness is a symptom of a sick society, not of a sick individual.
> > Perfect example: you are not homeless, yet obviously quite sick in the
> > head.
> > -
> > Most animals dont even have homes, stupid.-
>
> > Yes they do, stupid! Nests, lairs, burrows, dens, farms, canopies, and
> > so on.
> > --
> > and I don't believe we should just have dozens of millions of American
> > die-offs on the streets.-
>
> > That never happens.-
>
> > It's getting there, and rather rapidly. Thousands die off every year,
> > from lack of decent health care that they can't afford...over 40,000.
> > More and more people are going homeless...more and more homeless
> > deaths as a result.
> > --
> > Since those that have jobs view the homeless with disgust and hatred,-
>
> > Some do, plenty dont.-
>
> > You have that bass-ackwards, should be: "Plenty do, some don't". The
> > poor and downtrodden are villified in every walk of Amerikan life.
> > They are society's scapegoats...who wouldn't even be in that position
> > if an affluent nation distributed its wealth fairly. Amerika does not.
> > -
> > I suggest that you kill yourself forthwith.-
>
> > I think it would be better for this world if you followed your own
> > cold-hearted advice.
> > --
> > If I become homeless, I will suffer and die a slow and painful death on
> > the streets.-
>
> > Doesnt happen like that.-
>
> > Wow, you are dirt ignorant!
> > -
> > Not a chance. My house is fully paid off and has been for decades now.-
>
> > That won't save you. People who fully own their homes can, and do, go
> > homeless...often because of some tragic accident or illness that wipes
> > out their entire finances.
> > -
> > Makes a hell of a lot more sense for fools like you to kill yourself
> > without them.-
>
> > But you're a bigger fool, and I don't see you committing suicide.
> > -
> > You wouldnt know what realistic as if it bit you on your lard arse.-
>
> > You're no authority.
> > -
> > Yes, fools like you should be terminated on sight.-
>
> > And a hateful goon, as well.
>
> Interesting debate...don't agree with some of the more extreme views
> expressed on here but i do like to read what people think and try to
> understand the rationale behind some of it.

I treat the poor with both sympathy and mistrust. Many don't give a
shit, many do.

Neither the Proles are pure nor the Rich are putrefied. Many proles
only care about being rich and the rich for the most part simply don't
care.

I hate it when the parade their rusted Huffies unwilling to have a
better image, which is our own image. Many times people see cyclists
with panniers or trailers and think we are hobos.

I don't see the class struggle working in absolute terms. I tend to
agree with Orwell rather than Marx's view...

"Orwell did, however, want the tendencies that lead some men to guide
societies and other men to obey them, to fade away; in effect, he
wanted to change the state of nature that led to hierarchal social
structures."

(I guess I've been around. Lately Pravda simply deletes controversial
posts)

http://engforum.pravda.ru/showthread.php?24237-What-s-better-Marxism-or-Animalism

The jungle makes the animal. You go to Key West and you sort of put
your defenses down, to give an example everybody knows. But the poor
often overwhelm a place such as the scenic beach to the south of the
island. Bikes though are everywhere with a carefree attitude. That's
what we care about anyway, right?

We can change the world even if we address only these two issues:
HOMELESSNESS AND ROOM FOR BIKES.

== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 14 2011 9:06 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

Chief Thracian wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote

>>> I'm a poor person,

>> Your problem.

> No, it's a social problem,

Nope.

> The answer is proving all citizens with unversal health
> care and housing, guaranteed living income (whether one
> is presently employed or not)...in a nutshell: socialized
> democracy in the fashion of western Europe.

Pity they ALL have poor people ANYWAY.

> Your callous response is typical of Darwinian elitists...

Wrong. Its actually typical of those who have enough of
a clue to realise that there will ALWAYS be poor people,
even if its only the drunks and drug addict 'homeless' etc.

> who, I might add, have grossly distorted Charles Darwin's theories
> in order to justify the promotion of a brutal and ignorant ideology.

Having fun thrashing that straw man ?

>>> and I am very concerned that I may become homeless.

>> Trivial to avoid, dont get involved in mortages you cant cover.

> Many people become homeless through no fault of their own.

Only the ones that go mad and refuse to accept
the welfare that their state provides to mad people.

> Homelessness is a symptom of a sick society, not of a sick individual.

Wrong, as always.

> Perfect example: you are not homeless, yet obviously quite sick in the head.

Any 2 year old could leave that for dead. Get one to help you before posting
again, if anyone is actually stupid enough to let you anywhere near one.

>>> I don't blame Obama or Bush, but nature: the amount
>>> of resources in not keeping up with population growth.

>> In fact the problems was that house construction more than kept up with population growth.

>>> When this happens in the animal kingdom,

>> Most animals dont even have homes, stupid.

> Yes they do, stupid! Nests, lairs, burrows, dens,

Most animals dont have those, fuckwit.

> farms, canopies, and so on.

Those aint homes fuckwit.

>>> and I don't believe we should just have dozens of millions of
>>> American die-offs on the streets.

>> That never happens.

> It's getting there,

Pigs arse it is. The death rate keeps dropping, you silly little pathological liar.

> and rather rapidly.

Easy to claim. Have fun actually substantiating that lie.

> Thousands die off every year,

Nothing like the DOZENS OF MILLIONS he lied about, fuckwit.

> from lack of decent health care that they can't afford...

Those dont die ON THE STREETS, you silly little pathological liar.

> over 40,000.

Nothing like the DOZENS OF MILLIONS he lied about, fuckwit.

> More and more people are going homeless...

Because more and more were stupid enough to sign up for mortgages they
couldnt possibly make the payments on once the sucker rate interest expired.
And most of those can just move in with relos anyway so aint HOMELESS.

> more and more homeless deaths as a result.

Another bare faced lie. The only 'homeless' that die as a result are the drug addicts and drunks.

>>> Since those that have jobs view the homeless with disgust and hatred,

>> Some do, plenty dont.

> You have that bass-ackwards, should be: "Plenty do, some don't".

Wrong, as always.

> The poor and downtrodden

No one is 'downtrodden', fool.

> are villified in every walk of Amerikan life.

Because they produced that situation for themselves.

> They are society's scapegoats...

Nope, just the dregs.

> who wouldn't even be in that position if an
> affluent nation distributed its wealth fairly.

There are 'homeless' in every single country on earth, even Japan.

> Amerika does not.

No country does in that sense.

>>> I suggest an option: government subsidized free voluntary euthanization clinics.

>> I suggest that you kill yourself forthwith.

> I think

Obvious lie.

>>> If I become homeless, I will suffer and die a slow and painful death on the streets.

>> Doesnt happen like that.

> Wow, you are dirt ignorant!

Easy to claim. Have fun listing even a single individual that thats happened to in the last year.

>>> Afterall, you yourself may very well become homeless in a few months

>> Not a chance. My house is fully paid off and has been for decades now.

> That won't save you.

Corse it will.

> People who fully own their homes can, and do, go homeless...

Not in my country they dont. Even if I lost every cent that
I have saved which amounts to a hell of a lot more than the
house is worth, I'd just go on the govt pension that provides a
very decent standard of living for those that own their own houses.

> often because of some tragic accident or illness that wipes out their entire finances.

Cant happen in my country. We have a very decent health care system
that cant possibly do that and even if I was stupid enough to piss my entire
savings against the wall on some quack 'cures', the govt pension would
STILL ensure that I keep my house for as long as I choose to do that.

>>> So, it would be a lot more humane to have these free euthanization clinics
>>> so that these senior citizens could at least have the option to die painlessly.

>> Makes a hell of a lot more sense for fools like you to kill yourself without them.

> But you're a bigger fool,

Nope. Not even stupid enough to 'live' in that cesspit you clowns call your country.

> and I don't see you committing suicide.

Then you need new glasses, bad.

I'll be doing that when I decide that the quality of life is less than I prefer,
like not being able to read or watch docos or wipe my own arse etc etc etc.

>>> Let's be realistic:

>> You wouldnt know what realistic as if it bit you on your lard arse.

> You're no authority.

You in spades. You're so stupid you cant even manage
to work out which country someone is posting from.

>> Yes, fools like you should be terminated on sight.

== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 14 2011 9:07 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

Chief Thracian wrote
> His Highness the TibetanMonkey, originator of the Stop the Bullshit Campaign"
> <nolionnoproblem@yahoo.com> wrote:

>> "Communism forgets that life is individual. Capitalism forgets that
>> life is social, and the kingdom of brotherhood is found neither in
>> the thesis of communism nor the antithesis of capitalism but in a
>> higher synthesis. It is found in a higher synthesis that combines
>> the truths of both." -M.L. King

> Rod Speed needs to read this!

You need to hang yourself!!!

== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 14 2011 9:11 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

Chief Thracian wrote
> Nuxx Bar <derderderder619@hotmail.com> wrote

>> Why not just euthanise all the religious fundamentalists, homophobes,
>> lying self-serving drug warriors, racists, violent criminals, and
>> police officers who abuse their power (of course most people
>> who are one of those will be at least one other as well)?

> Thanks for including homophobes.

No such animal. No one fears homos, they just detest them at most.

> This country needs to stop excusing them base on their religious belief.

Then do the decent thing and set fire to yourself on Capitol Hill or sumfin.

> Otherwise, any kind of hatred and violence will eventually be justified by virtue of religion.

Wota terminal fuckwit.

Next you will be running the line that no religion can ever oppose anything.

> Continuing to allow homophobia

No such animal. No one fears homos, they just detest them at most.

> is the weak link that eventually allows all other bigotries to break through the chain.

Wota terminal fuckwit.

You're no 'Chief Thracian', just another terminal fuckwit.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Shopping
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/1a349878fdae2c27?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Low service cost internet phone
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/5e5533126449b3b9?hl=en
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== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 14 2011 5:06 am
From: " Terri Smith"

Like to get an android phone that has internet at low cost.

Virgin Mobile has a $25/mo that allows unlimited internet. Anyone know of
any other ways to go. I don't need unlimited.

Thanks
Terry

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 14 2011 5:15 am
From: Jeff Thies

On 2/14/2011 8:06 AM, Terri Smith wrote:
> Like to get an android phone that has internet at low cost.
>
> Virgin Mobile has a $25/mo that allows unlimited internet. Anyone know of
> any other ways to go. I don't need unlimited.

I don't see how you are going to do less than $25/month. Kroger (the
grocery store) sell Androids now. 2.5Gig limit. I've never seen a 3G
with more than 5GB limit, at least not where I live.

Jeff

>
> Thanks
> Terry
>
>
>
>

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 14 2011 3:04 pm
From: a real cheapskate

On Feb 14, 8:15 am, Jeff Thies <jeff_th...@att.net> wrote:
> On 2/14/2011 8:06 AM, Terri Smith wrote:
>
> > Like to get an android phone that has internet at low cost.
>
> > Virgin Mobile has a $25/mo that allows unlimited internet. Anyone know of
> > any other ways to go. I don't need unlimited.
>
> I don't see how you are going to do less than $25/month. Kroger (the
> grocery store) sell Androids now. 2.5Gig limit. I've never seen a 3G
> with more than 5GB limit, at least not where I live.
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
>
>
> > Thanks
> > Terry- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

net 10 has a unlimited cell phone, text, internet, picture message
package including free 411 for 50 bucks a month.

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 14 2011 6:37 pm
From: SMS

On 2/14/2011 5:06 AM, Terri Smith wrote:
> Like to get an android phone that has internet at low cost.
>
> Virgin Mobile has a $25/mo that allows unlimited internet. Anyone know of
> any other ways to go. I don't need unlimited.

That Virgin service is the best deal. However understand that with
Virgin you are limited, both for phone and data, to Sprint's _native_
network. There is no roaming allowed. This means that in a great many
places you will have no coverage at all. It's not like Sprint postpaid
where you can roam (at least for voice) onto Verizon and other CDMA
carriers. Sprint's native network is limited to major metro areas. When
you go into rural areas, even rural parts of the metro areas, you will
have no coverage (other than 911).

The other option is Pageplus Cellular. For $30 a month you get 1200
minutes of voice, 1200 texts, and 50MB of data. You're limited to
Verizon's network at that price, but off-network voice roaming is
available at extra cost if you occasionally need it. You can use any
Verizon Android phone. Blackberry and iPhones are not allowed. 50MB of
data isn't a great deal, but it's enough for many people considering the
wide availability of Wi-Fi in many areas.

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TOPIC: God The Father 10-29-80
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/259294f3c1395405?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 14 2011 5:47 am
From: wen

God The Father says,
" I, your Father, shout to the world through a mere woman in the
world, to change things to purity, to be alert to the need for sound
morality, for My enemy, the enemy of man, is working to destroy the
Souls of man."

REVELATION DELIVERED THROUGH FRANCES M. KLUG
ON OCTOBER 29,1980 AT 9:30 A.M.

GOD THE FATHER

"Men look for signals. Men say, 'This is the way I
understand things.' When the signal arises on the horizon or in the
vision of man, men look at the signal, and if they do not feel a
tenseness, an alert, they ignore the signal.

This Great Miracle that I have sent to the world is a
signal to mankind for men to better understand the purpose of human
life, directed by The Divine.

I am The Father of all mankind. I am The Creator of all
things. I say to the world, 'Look to the Miracle of Mine, and as you
do, be assured that all things that pass through It are of Mine. All
things delivered to you from It are because of My Will for you.'

Children say I would not speak. I say, 'I speak through a
woman in the world who is subject to Me for all mankind.' It is
difficult to walk for Me upon the earth for men say it cannot be, it
shouldn't be, that I would do differently. But I, your Father, speak
and I say, 'This Miracle has given man a signal - a signal to think
from, by; a signal, an alert to see the advantage of walking in a
particular way upon the earth.'

I, your Father, shout to the world through a mere woman in
the world, to change things to purity, to be alert to the need for
sound morality, for My enemy, the enemy of man, is working to destroy
the Souls of man.

Through this Great Miracle, I, The Father, am teaching men
how to walk in the manner I decree must be, how to perform in what My
Will says must be. I give to the world a signal. I give to the world
the advantage of My Direction at this time, for men to follow the
Words of The Divine.

Men say, 'I read a book.' Men say, 'I understand this book.
I know that He talked and walked before.' I, your Father, say, 'I am
upon the world. I am upon the earth and I am using an instrument to
give to mankind Words of Great Worth, Knowledge, that will give them
Strength, Hope and Goal.' So be it."

Saint Joseph's Hill Of Hope
Brea, California 92822 U.S.A.
www.TheMiracleOfStJoseph.org
All Revelations are delivered spontaneously
and continuously as witnessed by all those present at the time.
Copyright 1996 FMK
This is used with the permission of the copyright holder.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Frugal yet effective bike facilities
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/1e36070cec5895ce?hl=en
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== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 14 2011 6:51 am
From: "His Highness the TibetanMonkey, originator of the Stop the Bullshit
Campaign"

(This is a proposal for the whole nation and the whole world. I think
this puts an end to all the bullshit surrounding bike facilities)

Yep, I went to South Beach last night and I'm happy to say that the
"bike facilities" on Washington Ave have been both effective and
frugal. It's just a bicycle painted on the traffic lane, which I take
it to mean "bicycles belong." In effect I saw people riding leisurely,
and saw NO PEOPLE ON SIDEWALK.

This is something that we need all over the beach for it to become
bicycle friendly. I went all the way down on Indian Creek through
Alton Rd to South Beach and it amounts to a suicidal mission. I find
it IMPOSSIBLE to get from here to there. So expect very few sightings
of me at South Beach.

---------------------------------------------------

http://webspawner.com/users/BANANAREVOLUTION

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 14 2011 7:05 am
From: "His Highness the TibetanMonkey, originator of the Stop the Bullshit
Campaign"

(This is a proposal for the whole nation and the whole world. I think
this puts an end to all the bullshit surrounding bike facilities)

--------------------------------------------------------------

http://webspawner.com/users/BANANAREVOLUTION

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 14 2011 2:49 pm
From: "His Highness the TibetanMonkey, originator of the Stop the Bullshit
Campaign"

Posted by Jess

"Yes the new bike signs are completely useless. What a waste of
money!"

Hey, it's not what I said. I've been debating this with the pros for
10 years so I pretty much know what we need and I also I know that an
excuse NOT to do something is to say there's no money. We could dream
about proper bike lanes but we are not a priority in the jungle.

In the meantime we need to coexist with cars, and TAKING THE LANE is
the best strategy to survive in said jungle. The cyclists (the types A
& B --lycra type and messengers-- won't want to hear about bike lanes)
go arguing for ever as to what is best and we are waiting. Few argue
though that the safest place to be in right in the middle of the lane,
where you have high visibility and the car leaves the lane. The 3 feet
law is pure BS. Nobody can measure that with a tape. And bike lanes
create a dangerous conflict at corners. Having those signs though, I
argue, amounts to encouraging cyclists to take the lane. THE THING IS
TO BRING THE PEOPLE OUT. The worst aggression I had against me was
from a driver who thought I shouldn't be on the road (I shouldn't be
over the bridges at 96st ST causeway), so he was technically right and
it's still that way. When they think you belong though you earn
immediate respect and have more space.

Notice the sign is in the middle of the lane. Only a fool would ride
next to the cars where they could open the door anytime. Yesterday I
was forced to take the lane briefly (at Alton Rd) to avoid parked cars
and this dumb lady blasted the horn at me. We need to start somewhere.
I think this is going to be the way into a full blast TAKE THE LANE
policy. We can take a free ride with the Egyptian revolution, don't
you think?

In Holland the car is always at fault when hitting a cyclist until
proven otherwise. Nice policy, huh? At the same time, we have to keep
the reckless cyclists under control and issue tickets (or impound
their bicycles --I'm talking about the bums who are broke) for those
reckless enough to go without lights, or are camouflaged in dark
colors.

Coexistence of different species may not be easy, but the Law of the
Jungle is worse. Imagine we could ride from South Beach to Haulover --
or perhaps Hollywood Beach-- and not worry about cars. I mean the cars
worry about you because they are behind you and they orderly exit the
lane and re-enter. I've tried this and it works most of the time: THE
MORE YOU LAY CLAIM TO THE LANE THE MORE RESPECT YOU ARE GIVEN.

The problem is that such strategy works with 90% of the drivers, but
10% of them act as animals and that's when we must use the whip. This
means there has to be some kind of enforcement for the whole thing to
work.

And now off I go on my monkey bike (I got three, so we are talking
about A, B & C).

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 14 2011 4:56 pm
From: "His Highness the TibetanMonkey, originator of the Stop the Bullshit
Campaign"

On Feb 14, 6:07 pm, Miles Bader <mi...@gnu.org> wrote:
> "His Highness the TibetanMonkey, originator of the Stop the Bullshit
>
> Campaign" <nolionnoprob...@yahoo.com> writes:
> > Yep, I went to South Beach last night and I'm happy to say that the
> > "bike facilities" on Washington Ave have been both effective and
> > frugal. It's just a bicycle painted on the traffic lane, which I take
> > it to mean "bicycles belong."
>
> Of course the important thing is how people _react_ to those markings --
> if drivers just get mad and continue to act aggressively towards
> cyclists ("damn kids' toy using _my road_; how dare they disrespect my
> massive SUV!"), then many people will still be reluctant to cycle there.
>
> The markings probably help a bit, but the problem is cultural...

True. It's a pure TERRITORIAL CONFLICT between two species.

Notice they could co-exist (Key West, bikes and SUVs from outside) or
intimidate the other onto the sidewalks (where I live).

Some among the little species though put us down and ride rusting
bikes without proper care or equipment.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Have we dehumanized death?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/b4d7441ac1d43b2c?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 14 2011 3:38 pm
From: "His Highness the TibetanMonkey, originator of the Stop the Bullshit
Campaign"

On Feb 14, 2:15 am, Chief Thracian <chief-thrac...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 20 Jan 2011 07:58:20 -0800 (PST), "His Highness the
> TibetanMonkey, the prophet of the deep jungle"
>
> <comandante.ban...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >Analyzing the brutish life of the Neanderthals, some details
> >illustrate their humanity. They killed for a purpose, which we assume
> >was cannibalism as well as for hunting grounds. Today, though, we kill
> >from far, sometimes by "accident" --some caveman in a truck-- as if a
> >cyclist or pedestrian wasn't a human being and we quickly dismiss the
> >thought*...
> >Wow, if you analyze it coldly it makes sense. They didn't let the meat
> >go rotten. Or you may say your flesh went to nourish another human
> >being.
>
> I've always been confused why motorists who run down cyclists, let
> them rot on the asphalt...instead of hopping out of their vehicles,
> lighting up the tailgait barbecue...and eat them!

No, instead they go to church or serve a light sentence and keep on
doing whatever they want.

Actually, eating the corpse should give them harsher punishment unless
they develop an acquired taste. Any BBQ sauce in the car must be
treated with suspicion.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: ONLY FOR YOUTH
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/e4bb6f6cf230d608?hl=en
==============================================================================

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TOPIC: Infants have died or suffered debilitating respiration problems after
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http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/bbc5e3820a4e693c?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Feb 14 2011 8:49 pm
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Frugal Living

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Tuesday, February 15, 2011

misc.consumers.frugal-living - 18 new messages in 8 topics - digest