Frugal Living: Jul 15, 2008

Tuesday, July 15, 2008

25 new messages in 7 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

* cheap product for your beacutiful life - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/a735ebacc33d6981?hl=en
* Shop Lane Bryant Online Store - 2 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/4f6c58a50b5485e9?hl=en
* Spacing Trips to the Grocery Store? - 18 messages, 7 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/9e5316c7228e6cd4?hl=en
* MORE SPAM - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/bcc97aa0968c168a?hl=en
* Mortgage Calculator with Compound Interest Control - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/748a30e300112533?hl=en
* Surviving high heating oil prices - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/a184bef53e828bc7?hl=en
* maenner in damenkleidung kaufen www damenbekleidung bestellen
groessentabelle damenbekleidung bestellen mode damenbekleidung bestellen - 1
messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/550ed24d6d2a3021?hl=en

==============================================================================
TOPIC: cheap product for your beacutiful life
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/a735ebacc33d6981?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 7:54 am
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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Shop Lane Bryant Online Store
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/4f6c58a50b5485e9?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 9:00 am
From: RABBIT

On Jun 29, 3:41 pm, Al Bundy <MSfort...@mcpmail.com> wrote:
> On Jun 27, 6:56 am, RABBIT <getex...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >ShopLaneBryantOnlineStoreSales And Find plus-size suits and
> > stylish career apparel to accentuate your figure.find something
> > special atLaneBryantonlinestore.Their customer service is great
> > and I allwaysshophere for my wife and she loves when I do.
>
> Hmmm. Shopping for your wife's clothes? Better check her purse for
> your testicles.
> Or maybe she left them in your purse.
> If she wears a plus size, you should be shopping for a treadmill for
> her or a hand gun to use on yourself.

ITS ALLWAYS A HATER OUT THE BUNCH AND Al Bundy IS ONE OF THEM

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 10:40 am
From: clams_casino

SPAMMERRABBIT wrote:

>ITS ALLWAYS A HATER OUT THE BUNCH AND Al Bundy IS ONE OF THEM
>
>

You may want to enroll in a remedial English course.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Spacing Trips to the Grocery Store?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/9e5316c7228e6cd4?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 18 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 9:10 am
From: "Dave"

> $1-1.50 (or even stop in, providing I'm driving by) . Outside of the gas
> / milk, however, I'm not sure there is anything else worthwhile at the
> convenience store. I'm convinced they are primarily in business to sell
> cigarettes & lottery tickets.

Near us, there is a small supermarket / large convenience store that used to
sell gasoline, beer, cigarettes and lottery tickets, along with just about
anything else you'd find in a grocery store (produce, meat, bread, dairy
products, etc.). If you were desperate enough (kinda pricey) you could do
your whole weekly shopping trip there.

A few months ago, I went there for gas, and all the pumps were marked out of
order.

Later, I went in for a lottery ticket on my way home. All the gas pumps
were still out of order, and I was informed that they lost their lottery
license.

Last time I stopped in there (don't remember why?), The gas pumps were out
of order, and there was a large sign on the front door stating "No Beer,
Cigarettes, or Lottery".

So now they are a convenience store that just carries food items, nothing
else. Don't know how long they will be open. Don't know why they are open
NOW, really. Place was dead last time I drove by. No customers.
None. -Dave

== 2 of 18 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 9:12 am
From: "Dave"

> Where do you live that milk is only $1.99 a gallon?
>
> Here in PA state minimum price is $4.10 a gallon.
>
>

Don't tell me PA sets state minimum price on MILK???? Most convenience
stores sell cheap milk gallons, this isn't a NY thing, I've seen it all over
the U.S. -Dave

== 3 of 18 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 9:16 am
From: "Dave"

> Another avenue that I'm experimenting with is turning powdered milk back
> into
> whole milk by adding butter.

Adding WHAT?!? What's sold as whole milk in supermarkets isn't whole milk,
it's milk that has had most of the cream removed. I don't know what
powdered milk is, but suspect it's probably 2% milk, before the powdering
process. If you want to turn powdered milk into something resembling whole
milk, you'd have to find about a cup or more of CREAM to add to each
allon. -Dave

== 4 of 18 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 9:18 am
From: "Dave"

> I keep a few cans of evaporated milk around for emergencies. If you
> reconstitute powdered milk and add a little canned cow, it even gets
> almost drinkable. It's good enough to pour over cereal.

That sounds like a better idea than butter. -Dave

== 5 of 18 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 9:29 am
From: Jonathan Grobe

On 2008-07-15, FarmI <ask@itshall> wrote:
>
> It does have a slightly different flavour than fresh milk, but even so, I'd
> have to rate it as far better than powdered milk. Any ideas why it isn't
> more popular than powdered?

What are the costs of regular milk vs UHT vs powdered milk vs
condensed milk, etc--comparing them after them after the water
has been added...so they are all equivolent say to a gallon
of fresh milk?

--
Jonathan Grobe Books
Browse our inventory of thousands of used books at:

http://www.grobebooks.com

== 6 of 18 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 8:53 am
From: Ann

On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 17:39:58 +1000, FarmI wrote:

> "Neon John" <no@never.com> wrote in message
<...>
>> UHT is available here but not widely used, judging from the shelf space
>> it gets. I've been told by milk drinkers that it has a slightly
>> scorched taste.
>
> It does have a slightly different flavour than fresh milk, but even so,
> I'd have to rate it as far better than powdered milk. Any ideas why it
> isn't more popular than powdered?

There is some apples-and-oranges here. NFDM is a "replacement" for skim,
not whole, milk. So, once someone has made the transition to skim milk,
what's the point in paying for refrigerated storage and transportation
of all that water weight? A large box of NFDM weighs 4 pounds and makes 5
gallons (approx 40#) of liquid milk.

<...>

== 7 of 18 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 10:03 am
From: lisajoe@privacy.net

On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 17:19:07 +1000, in misc.consumers.frugal-living "FarmI"
<ask@itshall be given> wrote:

><unow@example.com> wrote in message
>> On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 15:09:12 +1000, in misc.consumers.frugal-living
>> "FarmI"
>> <ask@itshall be given> wrote:
>
>>>I hate powdered milk in all forms. It's cheap but given the choice
>>>between
>>>UHT or powdered, I'd choose UHT every time. Fresh is still best but
>>>powdered - yuckie poo!
>
>> Powdered milk is good for backpacking and baking.
>
>I can see why it would be convenient for backpacking, but how do you use it
>in baking? And why would you use it in baking if you weren't out camping?
>

I don't bake while camping.. liquid milk has something in it that can hinder
bread from rising but powdered milk does not.

== 8 of 18 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 10:22 am
From: Ann

On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 07:45:34 -0400, Neon John wrote:
<...>
> The closest Wallyworld (on paved roads, at least) is about 60 miles away.
> Even they only have the large boxes. I dream of having a Publix or
> similar premium store within driving range like I had in Atlanta. Of
> course, I'd not give up this paradise for all the Publixes on earth.

In my experience, rural Walmarts are over-rated (or is that under-rated?)
on grocery prices. There is a super-store approx 10 miles S, but I'm
fortunate to have chain supermarkets approx 25 miles N. (The people in
the southern part of the county are pretty much stuck with Walmart,
without a long trip.)

The only regular purchases I find consistently cost less at Walmart are
Jalapeno peppers, Hershey dark chocolate syrup, their store brand salsa,
and bulk mushrooms. The only time I buy meat there is when it's 1/3 off
because it's near the use-by date. And one has to read the nutritional
label because some of their meat is "plumped" with salt solution.

The prices on bread and freezer case prepared food can run 15% higher than
at the super store by the Home Depot approx 30 miles N. (Both stores are
at a (different) exit/entrance along a soon-to-be interstate highway so
transportation cost is no excuse.) Where Walmart is ahead of the curve is
in raising grocery prices. They used to be the place to buy brand name pet
food. Four weeks ago, a 13oz can of Friskies cat food was 1/3 over last
year's prince. Sunday, it had gone up 28% more. (Since the % of shelf
space for their store brand has been steadily increasing, Imo some of the
name brand increases in to convince us to switch.)

I understand that Walmart has their stock price to be concerned about, but
they're closing in on greedy.

== 9 of 18 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 10:45 am
From: Ann

On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 12:16:05 -0400, Dave wrote:

>
>> Another avenue that I'm experimenting with is turning powdered milk back
>> into
>> whole milk by adding butter.
>
> Adding WHAT?!? What's sold as whole milk in supermarkets isn't whole
> milk, it's milk that has had most of the cream removed. I don't know what
> powdered milk is, but suspect it's probably 2% milk, before the powdering
> process.

It's what the box says it is - Non-fat dry milk - Total fat 0g.
Fat-containing powdered milk couldn't be stored long term without a bunch
of stabilizer to keep the fat from going rancid. (Iirc, dried
fat-containing milk is used in commercial baking, etc.)

> If you want to turn powdered milk into something resembling
> whole milk, you'd have to find about a cup or more of CREAM to add to each
> allon. -Dave

== 10 of 18 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 10:55 am
From: Ann

On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 16:29:14 +0000, Jonathan Grobe wrote:

> On 2008-07-15, FarmI <ask@itshall> wrote:
>>
>> It does have a slightly different flavour than fresh milk, but even so,
>> I'd have to rate it as far better than powdered milk. Any ideas why it
>> isn't more popular than powdered?
>
> What are the costs of regular milk vs UHT vs powdered milk vs condensed
> milk, etc--comparing them after them after the water has been added...so
> they are all equivolent say to a gallon of fresh milk?

I just paid $14.28 for a box of nfdm that alleges to make 5 gallons of
skim milk. I don't know the price of liquid skim milk here.

== 11 of 18 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 3:12 pm
From: Sheldon

On Jul 15, 3:51�am, "FarmI" <ask@itshall be given> wrote:
> "Sheldon" <PENMAR...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> news:6fa6cb59-2db8-4510-82c4-61f89af74250@b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>
> > "FarmI" wrote:
>
> >> think for me the only problem would be bananas. ?
> >> There is no way to store them in any way.
> >Bananas freeze exceptionally well...
>
> Yebbut, they don't taste like fresh bananas. �If ya want a fresh banana, a
> frozen one just won't do.

Many think frozen banana tastes better than fresh. Most of the
world's food supply is eaten preserved in one way or another... don't
you have a fridge... you didn't suck that milk directly from the cow's
teat.

== 12 of 18 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 4:31 pm
From: "FarmI"

"Neon John" <no@never.com> wrote in message
> On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 17:39:58 +1000, "FarmI" <ask@itshall be given> wrote:
>
>>It does have a slightly different flavour than fresh milk, but even so,
>>I'd
>>have to rate it as far better than powdered milk. Any ideas why it isn't
>>more popular than powdered?
>
> Cost. The UHT milk is very expensive. TN is a poor state, particularly
> in
> the rural areas. Lots of folks on food stamps and even more working poor.
> Powdered milk is quite cheap for the amount it makes.

I know you didn't mean to make your post sound 'negative' but that sounds
quite sad. To me, having to buy powdered milk before buying either UHT or
full cream/skim/low fat milk would equate to grinding poverty.

I think if I was poor, I'd drop something else rather than buy powdered
milk. It might help if I'd not been used to fresh milk but I cna't come at
the stuff.

> Around here, logging was the traditional other work besides farming. Most
> of
> the land is owned by the forest service. When the eco-nazis took over the
> FS
> and, contrary to law, they quit leasing logging tracts, work dried up.
> Now,
> you farm, you drive long distances to other towns, you're retired or for a
> very few folks, you make money on tourism. Ahhh, tourism, the universal
> savior for every area that's run off all its industry. NOT!

And I guess increaisng not as the fuel cost rise.

>>What sort of recipes do you use it in? I can't ever recall seeing a
>>recipe
>>that uses powdered milk.
>
> I treat it like whole milk once I add the butter. Puddings, gravy, mashed
> potatoes, mac and cheese, etc. As long as the dish doesn't rely heavily
> on
> the taste of milk (Ice cream, for instance), it works pretty well.

Interesting. I think I'd just make something else if I didn't have fresh
milk to add. I have one small tin of Nestle powdered milk in my pantry but
it's probalby years past it 'use by' date by now. Will check and give it to
the chooks when I'm finished here as I can't even recall when or even if
I've used it..
>
> I still lean toward frozen milk but my freezers are kinda full right now
> so I
> haven't frozen any in awhile.
>
>>
>>The biggest thing I don't like about it is that it comes in these
>>> huge boxes that would last 3 lifetimes for me. A couple of neighbors
>>> cook
>>> with it too, so we usually split a box.
>>
>>:-)) Can't you get the Nestle powdered milk which would be in about a 1
>>lb
>>tin?
>
> Not conveniently. The (singular) grocery store in town is a Save-a-Lot.
> In
> case you're not familiar, it's a chain that caters to the poor. Cheap
> house
> brands and almost no name brands. Their beef would need a chain saw to
> cut
> but amazingly enough, they carry top of the line IBP brand pork. That
> store
> is 25 miles away.

:-)) So the beef is for stews, curries and casseroles only?
>
> The closest Wallyworld (on paved roads, at least) is about 60 miles away.
> Even
> they only have the large boxes. I dream of having a Publix or similar
> premium
> store within driving range like I had in Atlanta. Of course, I'd not give
> up
> this paradise for all the Publixes on earth.
>
> Every couple of months I get up a group order with a couple of neighbors,
> load
> up my cube van with coolers and trek about 100 miles to a Sam's club
> and/or a
> restaurant supply warehouse. There I get my quality food like choice+
> beef,
> whole chickens by the case and stuff like that. I like to buy commodities
> like ketchup and mustard and BBQ sauce in case lots of #10 cans. So much
> cheaper that way. I'll open a can, split it into several portions and
> either
> freeze or refrigerate them, depending on the keeping qualities of each.
>
> Frozen veggies are another area where restaurant case-lots are vastly
> cheaper
> than at the supermarket, and frankly, they taste just about as good as
> what I
> freeze myself. 20 lbs of kernel corn, green beans, limas, peas, etc.,
> lasts a
> LONG time.
>
> Hmm, this post sounds a little negative. It isn't. I love this life and
> don't view the periodic long trek to the store as a negative. Something
> to
> look forward to. Plus there's no money leaking away at the C-store for
> junk
> food and such.

:-)) I have a small village near me that offers mnore than we need, but I
was thinking just the other day of what we will do when this place finally
gets too much for us. The thought of going back to even a small village
lifestyle doesn't appeal, so I do know what you mean about lifestyle vs
convenience

== 13 of 18 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 4:35 pm
From: "FarmI"

"Neon John" <no@never.com> wrote in message
> On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 17:57:10 +1000, "FarmI" <ask@itshall be given> wrote:

>>I did a lot of pottery in my youth so I have no trouble kneading a small
>>batch. It's the big batches I can't manage due to some age related loss
>>of
>>strength.
>
> A low table would probably help. I have a genuine 500 lb laminated maple
> butcher's block in my kitchen. When I got it I had the top planed down to
> get
> rid of the deep dish and rough surface from years of commercial use. That
> plus my 6'7" size means that it falls below my crotch. A bit low for meat
> cutting but perfect for dough kneading. I can put all my weight through my
> shoulders onto the dough. My hands and elbows are arthritic so I don't
> even
> try to muscle it around like I used to.
>
> You might try a lower table or else find something to stand on to elevate
> you
> a few inches.

Bingo! You've hit the nail on the head! That is JUST what I need. Thanks
for that suggestion. As soon as I read it, I saw in my mind's eye, just the
thing - a stool from our sauna. We don't use the sauna (except to store our
camping gear in) so I'll dig out the stool and put it in the kitchen. It
was used as a stepping stool to allow access to the higher seats so one
could really bake oneself.

== 14 of 18 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 4:54 pm
From: "FarmI"

"Jonathan Grobe" <grobe@netins.net> wrote in message
news:slrng7pk2q.r80.grobe@worf.netins.net...
> On 2008-07-15, FarmI <ask@itshall> wrote:
>>
>> It does have a slightly different flavour than fresh milk, but even so,
>> I'd
>> have to rate it as far better than powdered milk. Any ideas why it isn't
>> more popular than powdered?
>
> What are the costs of regular milk vs UHT vs powdered milk vs
> condensed milk, etc--comparing them after them after the water
> has been added...so they are all equivolent say to a gallon
> of fresh milk?

UHT is more expensive than fresh but I think that condensed/ evaporated
canned would be more expensive than either. Dunno about powdered, will
check if I go to the shop today.

== 15 of 18 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 4:52 pm
From: "FarmI"

"Ann" <nntpmail@epix.net> wrote in message
> On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 17:39:58 +1000, FarmI wrote:
>> "Neon John" <no@never.com> wrote in message
> <...>
>>> UHT is available here but not widely used, judging from the shelf space
>>> it gets. I've been told by milk drinkers that it has a slightly
>>> scorched taste.
>>
>> It does have a slightly different flavour than fresh milk, but even so,
>> I'd have to rate it as far better than powdered milk. Any ideas why it
>> isn't more popular than powdered?
>
> There is some apples-and-oranges here. NFDM is a "replacement" for skim,
> not whole, milk.

??? Do you mean that when an American uses the term "powdered milk" they
mean the equivalent of powdered skim milk?

If you do mean that, I'm even more mystified as to why anyone would bother
to use the stuff.

So, once someone has made the transition to skim milk,
> what's the point in paying for refrigerated storage and transportation
> of all that water weight? A large box of NFDM weighs 4 pounds and makes 5
> gallons (approx 40#) of liquid milk.

I'd wonder why anyone would bother to make the transition to skim milk at
all. Skim milk so alters the taste and the texture it's easier to just go
without 'milk' rather than use skim. Changing to lower fat milk, I can
understand for an adult as it still has some taste of milk and operates like
milk in cooking, but skim, no. And children need full cream milk, which I
guess is less of an issue for all us regualrs here who seem to all be old
farts.

== 16 of 18 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 5:00 pm
From: "FarmI"

<lisajoe@privacy.net> wrote in message
> On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 17:19:07 +1000, in misc.consumers.frugal-living
> "FarmI"
> <ask@itshall be given> wrote:
>
>><unow@example.com> wrote in message
>>> On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 15:09:12 +1000, in misc.consumers.frugal-living
>>> "FarmI"
>>> <ask@itshall be given> wrote:
>>
>>>>I hate powdered milk in all forms. It's cheap but given the choice
>>>>between
>>>>UHT or powdered, I'd choose UHT every time. Fresh is still best but
>>>>powdered - yuckie poo!
>>
>>> Powdered milk is good for backpacking and baking.
>>
>>I can see why it would be convenient for backpacking, but how do you use
>>it
>>in baking? And why would you use it in baking if you weren't out camping?

> I don't bake while camping.. liquid milk has something in it that can
> hinder
> bread from rising but powdered milk does not.

What sort of bread are you baking that uses milk? I've only ever used milk
in brioche and I don't really count that as being a 'bread' in the sense of
an everyday loaf. Brioche I put in the category of being a flash French
number that is more trouble than it's worth. I'd rather just make a fruit
loaf all told. I do sometimes bake when camping. Last time we went camping
I made a great loaf of bread in our Dutch oven.

== 17 of 18 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 5:06 pm
From: BR

FarmI wrote:
> <unow@example.com> wrote in message
>> On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 15:09:12 +1000, in misc.consumers.frugal-living
>> "FarmI"
>> <ask@itshall be given> wrote:
>
>>> I hate powdered milk in all forms. It's cheap but given the choice
>>> between
>>> UHT or powdered, I'd choose UHT every time. Fresh is still best but
>>> powdered - yuckie poo!
>
>> Powdered milk is good for backpacking and baking.
>
> I can see why it would be convenient for backpacking, but how do you use it
> in baking? And why would you use it in baking if you weren't out camping?
>
>

If the recipe calls for 1 cup of regular milk, use 1/3 of a cup of
powdered milk and add enough water to get 1 cup.

Why use it for baking? Because you don't have to worry about it going
bad two weeks after you buy it. True, powdered milk will eventually
oxidize and taste worse than it usually does, but that's six months
after you open the box. Unopened, it keeps for a year.

--
Remove the TOS star ship captain to reply privately.

== 18 of 18 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 5:44 pm
From: Ann

On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 09:52:58 +1000, FarmI wrote:

> "Ann" <nntpmail@epix.net> wrote in message
>> On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 17:39:58 +1000, FarmI wrote:
>>> "Neon John" <no@never.com> wrote in message
>> <...>
>>>> UHT is available here but not widely used, judging from the shelf
>>>> space it gets. I've been told by milk drinkers that it has a slightly
>>>> scorched taste.
>>>
>>> It does have a slightly different flavour than fresh milk, but even so,
>>> I'd have to rate it as far better than powdered milk. Any ideas why it
>>> isn't more popular than powdered?
>>
>> There is some apples-and-oranges here. NFDM is a "replacement" for skim,
>> not whole, milk.
>
> ??? Do you mean that when an American uses the term "powdered milk" they
> mean the equivalent of powdered skim milk?

Home users, yes. Except it's called Instant Nonfat Dry Milk.

> If you do mean that, I'm even more mystified as to why anyone would bother
> to use the stuff.

For adults at least, skim milk is healthier than milk with fat. There
are other sources of calcium and A&D like yogurt and cheese. And if one
has a yen for dairy fat, there is always butter and ice cream. <g> As for
not using milk at all, cereal is really dry without it. I mix it
"stronger" than the package directions for cereal and with banana or other
fruit on the cereal, it's ok by me. It's all a matter of personal taste
(or lack thereof).

>> So, once someone has made the transition to skim milk,
>> what's the point in paying for refrigerated storage and transportation
>> of all that water weight? A large box of NFDM weighs 4 pounds and makes
>> 5 gallons (approx 40#) of liquid milk.
>
> I'd wonder why anyone would bother to make the transition to skim milk at
> all. Skim milk so alters the taste and the texture it's easier to just go
> without 'milk' rather than use skim. Changing to lower fat milk, I can
> understand for an adult as it still has some taste of milk and operates
> like milk in cooking, but skim, no. And children need full cream milk,
> which I guess is less of an issue for all us regualrs here who seem to all
> be old farts.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: MORE SPAM
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/bcc97aa0968c168a?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 10:46 am
From: clams_casino

FreebiesPl.us wrote:

>Free sample of Playtex Sport
>freebiespl.us
>
>

If you want this abusive spammer terminated, report them to abuse@comcast.net <mailto:abuse@comcast.net>

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Mortgage Calculator with Compound Interest Control
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/748a30e300112533?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 11:10 am
From: headware

Does anybody know of an online mortgage calculator that allows you to
adjust how often the interest is compounded (e.g. daily, monthly,
etc.)?

Thanks,
Dave

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Surviving high heating oil prices
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/a184bef53e828bc7?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 2:41 pm
From: krw

In article <g5fthh$cj9$1@usenet01.srv.cis.pitt.edu>,
zekfrivo@zekfrivolous.com says...
> In article <MPG.22e27c8ac01edffc989e87@news.individual.net>, krw <krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzz> wrote:
> >In article <g5a6po$jf6@acadia.ece.villanova.edu>,
> >nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu says...
> >> krw <krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzz> wrote:
> >>
> >> >> >... The reflective barrier will not keep heat in; zero R value.
> >> >> >It will *reflect* IR radiation and is useful in areas with
> >> >> >lots of sun, but it adds zero to the R value.
> >> >>
> >> >> Wrong.
> >> >
> >> >Not wrong. Foil does nothing to "resist" the conduction of heat
> >> >therefor has no "R" value. It will REFLECT radiated heat, but do
> >> >ZERO for conducted heat.
> >>
> >> With an air gap, the foil adds a real R-value.
> >
> >Nonsense. The air gap adds R-value. The foil adds nothing to the
> >heat conduction. Foils is METAL, which is a CONDUCTOR.
>
> Regardless of the technicalities of wording, reflective barriers
> are extremely important when the R value is low.

I guess a penny is important when you're broke.

> I experimented with some 3/16 inch Polyethelene foam with reflective
> barrier on both sides. In my basement on the cinderblock, which is R 3.5,
> I laid down a sheet against the block. I added another layer on the 3 inch
> wood framing members. Measuring the temperature differentials was very
> remarkable. Better than I could have imagined. It compared very favorable
> with the 3 inches of fiberglass on other areas. I was thinking, and may still do,
> add preforated foil on top the insulation in the attic.

You don't go into much detail, but your experiment is likely flawed.
The foil is doing nothing. The foil *might* do some good in the
attic for reasons I've mentioned.

--
Keith

==============================================================================
TOPIC: maenner in damenkleidung kaufen www damenbekleidung bestellen
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http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/550ed24d6d2a3021?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 6:43 pm
From: clientcenters12@googlemail.com

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26 new messages in 11 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Is this frugal?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/060ca487b986915a?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Jul 14 2008 10:46 pm
From: The Real Bev

Seerialmom wrote:

> On Jul 14, 10:08 am, The Real Bev <bashley101+use...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> clams_casino wrote:
>> > James wrote:
>>
>> >>http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7502071.stm
>>
>> >>Living in a world without waste
>>
>> 34 containers? I don't think so!
>>
>> >>MHO
>> >>For one thing having to wash and dry before recycling can be a waste
>> >>of clean water.
>>
>> Son in North Carolina has to pay $80 for 3,000 gallons. Gardening in
>> the neighborhood is generally minimal -- a serious gardener up the
>> street pays $700/month for water. They don't wash their recyclables either.
>
> 3000 gallons for $80??

Next 1K is $27, pro-rated. They've managed to stay under the limit in
the year they've been there. New area, lots of houses being built, much
new piping etc. needed, plus the water company got stuck with some
high-interest loans that need to be paid off.

> Ugh...we just went to metered water in my
> area...right now our water usage is still "drought level" (dead
> backyard, front yard half dead, dishwasher only when full, etc).
> Luckily the toilet that's used a lot by my son is a low flow 1.6. Our
> utility will charge flat rate for the next couple of months but show
> what we would be charged if it was the metered rate, too. That way we
> can do whatever cutbacks we need to before they actually bill us that
> way.
> I agree with some others about the needing to "rinse"; if it's going
> to take extra water or energy to do that I'll toss it as well.

I laugh when they urge people to water their lawns only every other day.
My "lawn" gets 15 minutes every two weeks and if it doesn't like it it
can move elsewhere. Of course it looks ratty, but it's alive.

--
Cheers, Bev
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Todd Flanders' hobbies include being quiet on long rides,
clapping to songs and diabetes.

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 5:46 am
From: root

The Real Bev <bashley101+usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Water is nearly free, so it's just time. And the principle of the
> thing, of course. Some cities figure that just tossing everything --
> garbage and recyclables -- into the same container and sorting it at the
> plant saves money. Fewer trucks required, for one thing.
>

If they aren't doing it now, recycling companies can develop
equipment to recycle the water they use to wash the
stuff they get. Ordinary people would use drinking water
to wash their recylables; it makes no sense for us
to wash the stuff.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 7:39 am
From: "Rod Speed"

Rod Speed, ye light-fingered gossipmonger, france is a dog hole, and it
no more merits the tread of a man's foot, ye needled:

> Ring-a-Ring o' Rosies, A Pocket full of Posies, A-tishoo! A-tishoo! We
> all fall Down!

== 1 of 10 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 12:19 am
From: "FarmI"

<unow@example.com> wrote in message
> On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 15:09:12 +1000, in misc.consumers.frugal-living
> "FarmI"
> <ask@itshall be given> wrote:

>>I hate powdered milk in all forms. It's cheap but given the choice
>>between
>>UHT or powdered, I'd choose UHT every time. Fresh is still best but
>>powdered - yuckie poo!

> Powdered milk is good for backpacking and baking.

I can see why it would be convenient for backpacking, but how do you use it
in baking? And why would you use it in baking if you weren't out camping?

== 2 of 10 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 12:27 am
From: "FarmI"

"Neon John" <no@never.com> wrote in message
news:gptl74l0qqsau8c93gcv9hsb7gch0l9r7d@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 14:24:04 +1000, "FarmI" <ask@itshall be given> wrote:
>
>
>>> Makes more sense to get a bread machine and bake more often.
>>
>>Not to us. We prefer a bigger loaf than machines make as we eat a lot of
>>bread, we hated the hole in the bottom of the bread and the cleaning up
>>and
>>we prefer the flavour of oven baked bread.
>>
>
> I'm with you on that. I *hated* the bread machine that I briefly owned.
> Tiny
> little loaves that tasted nothing like what I make by hand, even using the
> same recipe.

I agree, but we must be wrong in this :-)) It seems that you, in common
with me, must be "foolish" and have "mindlessly silly hangups".

Do you think you and I need to say 10 times a day: "I love bread machines"
till we get over our preference for bread made the old fashioned way?

> I make plain old French bread almost exclusively. I'd much rather spend a
> day
> every so often baking, vacuum packaging and freezing a large quantity than
> I
> would fooling with the machine, even if the product came out the same.

There is something elemental in baking bread by hand. I like the rythm of
it as well as the outcome.

> I generally like kitchen gadgets but a bread machine is a glaring
> exception.

I like certain kitchen gadgets. I couuldn't live without my food processor
but a bread machine was just a great lumping obstruction that I grew very
quickly to dislike intensely.

== 3 of 10 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 12:39 am
From: "FarmI"

"Neon John" <no@never.com> wrote in message
> On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 15:09:12 +1000, "FarmI" <ask@itshall be given> wrote:

>>Others have answered the question a from one of the cites (the wiki one) I
>>found that UHT is supposedly available in the US. I know you know and
>>like
>>all sorts of food so it surprses me that you haven't come across UHT. I
>>assume it's not around where you are? How common is it?
>
> UHT is available here but not widely used, judging from the shelf space it
> gets. I've been told by milk drinkers that it has a slightly scorched
> taste.

It does have a slightly different flavour than fresh milk, but even so, I'd
have to rate it as far better than powdered milk. Any ideas why it isn't
more popular than powdered?

> I used to keep some in my RV for cooking but now I just keep some frozen
> packets of regular milk in the freezer.

I've not tried freezing milk (haven't yet needed to do so). Must do so as
an experiment.

>>I've always seen lots of references both here in this thread and other US
>>dominated ngs and on sites that makes me think that powdered milk seems to
>>be much used in the US. Is that so?
>
> Seems so, again, judging by the shelf space it gets.
>
>>
>>I hate powdered milk in all forms. It's cheap but given the choice
>>between
>>UHT or powdered, I'd choose UHT every time. Fresh is still best but
>>powdered - yuckie poo!
>
> I couldn't imagine drinking the stuff (but then, I can't stand milk
> anyway)
> but it's OK for cooking as long as you add enough butter to replenish the
> butterfat.

What sort of recipes do you use it in? I can't ever recall seeing a recipe
that uses powdered milk.

The biggest thing I don't like about it is that it comes in these
> huge boxes that would last 3 lifetimes for me. A couple of neighbors cook
> with it too, so we usually split a box.

:-)) Can't you get the Nestle powdered milk which would be in about a 1 lb
tin?

== 4 of 10 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 12:51 am
From: "FarmI"

"Sheldon" <PENMART01@aol.com> wrote in message
news:6fa6cb59-2db8-4510-82c4-61f89af74250@b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> "FarmI" wrote:
>
>> think for me the only problem would be bananas. ?
>> There is no way to store them in any way.

>Bananas freeze exceptionally well...

Yebbut, they don't taste like fresh bananas. If ya want a fresh banana, a
frozen one just won't do.

== 5 of 10 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 12:57 am
From: "FarmI"

"val189" <gwehrenb@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> On Jul 14, 12:24 am, "FarmI" <ask@itshall be given> wrote:
> We prefer a bigger loaf than machines make as we eat a lot of
>> bread, we hated the hole in the bottom of the bread and the cleaning up
>> and
>> we prefer the flavour of oven baked bread.
>
> I have two bread machines (friend gave me one she wasn't using) - so I
> make two types of bread at a time, baked 'em in oven. No holes, and
> they almost jump out of my nonstick loaf pans.

My bread pans are old fashioned ones that aren't non stick, but I never have
trouble with bread sticking after years of regualr oiling and baking :-)

Mind you though I nearly died at the price of the blasted things when I
bouhght a new pan recently - $35 for the 'real' bread pan with the folded
metal corners!!!!!

> I could never get the hang of kneading, so this system makes me
> happy.

I did a lot of pottery in my youth so I have no trouble kneading a small
batch. It's the big batches I can't manage due to some age related loss of
strength.

I don't run out of bread, I like the product, and I'm not
> paying those store prices. I have no idea if using the big oven vs.
> letting the machines do the baking is more expensive, but I refuse to
> analyze every action.

Wise that, very wise.

== 6 of 10 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 1:29 am
From: "Rod Speed"

FarmI <ask@itshall be given> wrote:
> <unow@example.com> wrote in message
>> On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 15:09:12 +1000, in misc.consumers.frugal-living
>> "FarmI"
>> <ask@itshall be given> wrote:
>
>>> I hate powdered milk in all forms. It's cheap but given the choice
>>> between
>>> UHT or powdered, I'd choose UHT every time. Fresh is still best but
>>> powdered - yuckie poo!
>
>> Powdered milk is good for backpacking and baking.

> I can see why it would be convenient for backpacking,

Much more convenient to not bother with milk at all when backpacking.

> but how do you use it in baking?

Just use an appropriate amount of the powder in with the other
dry ingredients and use water to get the consistency right.

> And why would you use it in baking if you weren't out camping?

So you dont have to fart around with real milk, because it stores indefinitely.

== 7 of 10 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 4:21 am
From: Neon John

On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 20:46:34 -0700, lisajoe@privacy.net wrote:

>Ok one last argument from me then.. :) What do you do with all that frozen
>food when the power goes out? Maybe it does not go out very often in your area
>but it goes out a lot here and I don't have a generator anymore.

There's an uninterruptible power supply in the basement connected to about 800
amp-hours (24 volts) of batteries. It powers my cabin's "vital bus". Lights
(all CF), refrigeration, computer, fan on the wood stove and a few other
things. That'll last about 24 hours. After that, out come the generators. As
in, more than one for redundancy and diversity of fuel supplies. One is
diesel, the other is gasoline with an LP option.

The freezers are on wheels so if the outage happens in winter, I just roll
them outside and let mother nature keep things cold. One advantage to these
old R12 units is that they WILL work in the cold. If it's only in the 30s
outside, they'll still keep the interiors at -20.

I just got a larger UPS that should run my well pump long enough for a short
shower or a few toilet uses. After that, the generators come out again. In
the summer the generators come out pretty quickly so that I can run the AC. I
have central AC but I usually use a portable AC (the kind that has a flex duct
in the window to carry out the hot air) to cool just one "survival" room.

Power here is third world quality so we have to be prepared. I average about
10 hours a week without power, winter and summer. Right-of-way maintenance?
We don't need no steenking ROW maintenance.

The longest that it's been out in modern times was 9 days during the '93
blizzard. More typically, a tree falls across the line somewhere during a
rain storm and it takes most of a day for the co-op contractor to amble up and
cut it down. An average ice storm is good for a couple of days.

I got my (new, blems) batteries and UPSs at a scrap metal yard and paid scrap
prices for them so I have little invested. I use this architecture so that
battery power operates the cabin most of the time.

The generator gets cranked only to rapid-charge the batteries, to run the well
pump, to cook (electric stove) or to shower. I can recharge the pack in just
a few hours and then turn the generator off. It runs either fully loaded or
is off. None of that idling all day with little load, burning half a gallon
an hour of fuel.

I normally keep a 2 week supply of fuel in drums on hand. Plus the 500 gallon
propane tank. Plus both the motorhome and the medium duty diesel cube van are
kept full, about 80 gallons between 'em. The MH has a generator too. If
something bad happens to my cabin (tree through the roof or something like
that) I can retreat to the motorhome and be comfortable, if a bit crowded.

My philosophy on this system is that I'm not going to let power outages
inconvenience me or cause me to change my daily activities. Other than having
to haul fuel about once a year, I've succeeded.

Ya gotta be tough to live in them thar Tennessee hills! :-)

John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
If stupidity hurt then there'd be Aspirin in the salt shakers.

== 8 of 10 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 4:45 am
From: Neon John

On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 17:39:58 +1000, "FarmI" <ask@itshall be given> wrote:

>It does have a slightly different flavour than fresh milk, but even so, I'd
>have to rate it as far better than powdered milk. Any ideas why it isn't
>more popular than powdered?

Cost. The UHT milk is very expensive. TN is a poor state, particularly in
the rural areas. Lots of folks on food stamps and even more working poor.
Powdered milk is quite cheap for the amount it makes.

Around here, logging was the traditional other work besides farming. Most of
the land is owned by the forest service. When the eco-nazis took over the FS
and, contrary to law, they quit leasing logging tracts, work dried up. Now,
you farm, you drive long distances to other towns, you're retired or for a
very few folks, you make money on tourism. Ahhh, tourism, the universal
savior for every area that's run off all its industry. NOT!

>What sort of recipes do you use it in? I can't ever recall seeing a recipe
>that uses powdered milk.

I treat it like whole milk once I add the butter. Puddings, gravy, mashed
potatoes, mac and cheese, etc. As long as the dish doesn't rely heavily on
the taste of milk (Ice cream, for instance), it works pretty well.

I still lean toward frozen milk but my freezers are kinda full right now so I
haven't frozen any in awhile.

>
>The biggest thing I don't like about it is that it comes in these
>> huge boxes that would last 3 lifetimes for me. A couple of neighbors cook
>> with it too, so we usually split a box.
>
>:-)) Can't you get the Nestle powdered milk which would be in about a 1 lb
>tin?

Not conveniently. The (singular) grocery store in town is a Save-a-Lot. In
case you're not familiar, it's a chain that caters to the poor. Cheap house
brands and almost no name brands. Their beef would need a chain saw to cut
but amazingly enough, they carry top of the line IBP brand pork. That store
is 25 miles away.

The closest Wallyworld (on paved roads, at least) is about 60 miles away. Even
they only have the large boxes. I dream of having a Publix or similar premium
store within driving range like I had in Atlanta. Of course, I'd not give up
this paradise for all the Publixes on earth.

Every couple of months I get up a group order with a couple of neighbors, load
up my cube van with coolers and trek about 100 miles to a Sam's club and/or a
restaurant supply warehouse. There I get my quality food like choice+ beef,
whole chickens by the case and stuff like that. I like to buy commodities
like ketchup and mustard and BBQ sauce in case lots of #10 cans. So much
cheaper that way. I'll open a can, split it into several portions and either
freeze or refrigerate them, depending on the keeping qualities of each.

Frozen veggies are another area where restaurant case-lots are vastly cheaper
than at the supermarket, and frankly, they taste just about as good as what I
freeze myself. 20 lbs of kernel corn, green beans, limas, peas, etc., lasts a
LONG time.

Hmm, this post sounds a little negative. It isn't. I love this life and
don't view the periodic long trek to the store as a negative. Something to
look forward to. Plus there's no money leaking away at the C-store for junk
food and such.

John

--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
There is much pleasure in useless knowledge. --Bertrand Russell

== 9 of 10 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 4:53 am
From: Neon John

On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 17:57:10 +1000, "FarmI" <ask@itshall be given> wrote:

>> I could never get the hang of kneading, so this system makes me
>> happy.
>
>I did a lot of pottery in my youth so I have no trouble kneading a small
>batch. It's the big batches I can't manage due to some age related loss of
>strength.

A low table would probably help. I have a genuine 500 lb laminated maple
butcher's block in my kitchen. When I got it I had the top planed down to get
rid of the deep dish and rough surface from years of commercial use. That
plus my 6'7" size means that it falls below my crotch. A bit low for meat
cutting but perfect for dough kneading. I can put all my weight through my
shoulders onto the dough. My hands and elbows are arthritic so I don't even
try to muscle it around like I used to.

You might try a lower table or else find something to stand on to elevate you
a few inches.

== 10 of 10 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 6:44 am
From: me@privacy.net

Neon John <no@never.com> wrote:

>There's an uninterruptible power supply in the basement connected to about 800
>amp-hours (24 volts) of batteries. It powers my cabin's "vital bus". Lights
>(all CF), refrigeration, computer, fan on the wood stove and a few other
>things. That'll last about 24 hours. After that, out come the generators. As
>in, more than one for redundancy and diversity of fuel supplies. One is
>diesel, the other is gasoline with an LP option.

Neon John I'm always amazed at how well EQUIPPED you
are!! You must have tons of stuff sitting around your
house and don't mind that, yes?

I'm of the nature that I try and avoid owning things if
possible and wonder if that is wrong approach. I try
and live lean and mean.... but it does bite me in the
ass.... making me "depend" too much on supply lines and
such.

What is your philosophy on having/owning bunch of stuff
like this? You don't mind it taking up space or having
to move it around?

==============================================================================
TOPIC: BBC googi G-star t-shirts hot sell now .chanel chole handbags new new !!
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http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/46496084e4f789bc?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
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TOPIC: Design variations for solar space heater
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/ad2c689d5a582e5f?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 5:27 am
From: nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu

Johnnyo <oetting@ptd.net> wrote:

>> > I'm in the planing and design phase for an 8ftx16ft collector for
>> > supplemental winter space heating for our home in rural PA. Firm
>> > requirements include vertical wall mounting, fan circulation and
>> > opposite corner air inlet and outlet (cold in at the bottom and hot
>> > out at the top). Glazing will be Sun-Lite HP and back of panel
>> > insulation will be rigid polyiso panels.

The glazing might be 2 $64 4'x16' sheets of Dynaglas corrugated
polycarbonate greenhouse roofing from Griffin in Morgantown, PA
installed as "solar siding."

>i chose fan circulation since i already have several suitable DC fans and
>a PV panel to drive them.

A 70 F room on a 30 F day and a C cfm fan in full sun (250 Btu/h-ft^2)
and fully-mixed solar-warmed air at temperature T (F) near the glazing
would look something like this, viewed in a fixed font:

0.9x250x8x16 = 28.8K Btu/h T
--- | 1/C
|-------|-->|--------------------*---------www--- 70
--- |
|
R1/(8x16) = 1/128 |
30 ------www---------------------

which is equivalent to this:

T
1/128 | 1/C
-------www----------------www--- 70
|
| 30+28.8K/128 = 255 F I --->
---
-
|
-

I = (255-70)/(1/128+1/C) = 23.7KC/(128+C) Btu/h with collection efficiency
E = 100I/28.8K = 82C/(128+C)% and average heater air temp T = 70+I/C.

C = 100 cfm makes I = 10.4K Btu/h and E = 36% and T = 174 F.
C = 500 cfm makes I = 18.9K Btu/h and E = 66% and T = 108 F.

What is your fan cfm?

With no fans, just holes at the top and bottom to allow thermosyphoning:

T I --->
1/128 | ---
-------www---------------|-->|-- 70
| ---
| 255 F
---
-
|
-

According to an empirical chimney formula, I = 16.6Asqrt(H)dT^1.5 Btu/h,
with 2 A ft^2 vents and an H' vertical separation. With a 16'x4" slot at
the top and bottom and H = 8', I = 250(T-70)^1.5, and T = 255-I/128, so
T = 70+((255-T)/1.96)^(2/3). Plugging in T = 100 F on the right makes
T = 88.4 on the left. Repeating makes T = 89.3, then 89.2, with
I = 21.1K Btu/h and E = 73%.

>> > Reading posts from the SMEs on this forum as well as many other
>> > sources suggests that there are a lot of potential variations in
>> > absorber materials (window screen, aluminum sheet, filter fiber,
>> > felt), baffle/air channel configuration, absorber placement etc...

These collectors can be more efficient with a "transpired absorber,"
some sort of mesh that allows 70 F air to flow up between the mesh
and the glazing and back from south to north through the solar-warmed
mesh into the house. This keeps cooler air near the glazing and reduces
reradiation loss through the glazing. The house wall behind the mesh
should be dark, eg dark green or black.

>> > So the big question is, does anyone know of documented comparative
>> > testing along these lines?

Gary Reysa has done some of that. I like his air heater design:

http://www.motherearthnews.com/multimedia/image-gallery.aspx?id=74688&seq=1

I'd use a single layer of black fiberglass window screen for the mesh.

>> >I've looked but have not found much, so I'm considering building
>> >a 4ftx8ft scale test bed where I can easily swap out or change
>> >the "innards" in support of an iterative design process.

Why fuss around with a smaller version, especially if you insist on fans?

Nick

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 5:04 am
From: Johnnyo

Thanks Nick and Morris! You are certainly schooling me here.

So i'm finally getting it - the fans are really of no value....better
to save the PV panel for some other project.

Nick - Thanks for the tip on the local Dynaglass source - i was really
wanting to use twinwall polycarb but have not been able to find it
locally, and the shipping/crating charges are steep for a small order
off the internet. Dynaglass seems a great solution.

It looks like the temps are getting rather high so i'm getting a bit
worried about code issues if i stay with a plywood back (thinking of
using existing exterior wall sheathing) and wood sides for the box.
(Thanks to Gary in his articles for pointing this out). Does anyone
know if lining the collector interior with foil faced polyiso would
satisfy the codes? Would think to use aluminum flashing for the
intake & exhaust.

Thanks again guys!
John

On Jul 15, 8:27 am, nicksans...@ece.villanova.edu wrote:
> Johnnyo <oett...@ptd.net> wrote:
> >> > I'm in the planing and design phase for an 8ftx16ft collector for
> >> > supplemental winter space heating for our home in rural PA. Firm
> >> > requirements include vertical wall mounting, fan circulation and
> >> > opposite corner air inlet and outlet (cold in at the bottom and hot
> >> > out at the top). Glazing will be Sun-Lite HP and back of panel
> >> > insulation will be rigid polyiso panels.
>
> The glazing might be 2 $64 4'x16' sheets of Dynaglas corrugated
> polycarbonate greenhouse roofing from Griffin in Morgantown, PA
> installed as "solar siding."
>
> >i chose fan circulation since i already have several suitable DC fans and
> >a PV panel to drive them.
>
> A 70 F room on a 30 F day and a C cfm fan in full sun (250 Btu/h-ft^2)
> and fully-mixed solar-warmed air at temperature T (F) near the glazing
> would look something like this, viewed in a fixed font:
>
> 0.9x250x8x16 = 28.8K Btu/h T
> --- | 1/C
> |-------|-->|--------------------*---------www--- 70
> --- |
> |
> R1/(8x16) = 1/128 |
> 30 ------www---------------------
>
> which is equivalent to this:
>
> T
> 1/128 | 1/C
> -------www----------------www--- 70
> |
> | 30+28.8K/128 = 255 F I --->
> ---
> -
> |
> -
>
> I = (255-70)/(1/128+1/C) = 23.7KC/(128+C) Btu/h with collection efficiency
> E = 100I/28.8K = 82C/(128+C)% and average heater air temp T = 70+I/C.
>
> C = 100 cfm makes I = 10.4K Btu/h and E = 36% and T = 174 F.
> C = 500 cfm makes I = 18.9K Btu/h and E = 66% and T = 108 F.
>
> What is your fan cfm?
>
> With no fans, just holes at the top and bottom to allow thermosyphoning:
>
> T I --->
> 1/128 | ---
> -------www---------------|-->|-- 70
> | ---
> | 255 F
> ---
> -
> |
> -
>
> According to an empirical chimney formula, I = 16.6Asqrt(H)dT^1.5 Btu/h,
> with 2 A ft^2 vents and an H' vertical separation. With a 16'x4" slot at
> the top and bottom and H = 8', I = 250(T-70)^1.5, and T = 255-I/128, so
> T = 70+((255-T)/1.96)^(2/3). Plugging in T = 100 F on the right makes
> T = 88.4 on the left. Repeating makes T = 89.3, then 89.2, with
> I = 21.1K Btu/h and E = 73%.
>
> >> > Reading posts from the SMEs on this forum as well as many other
> >> > sources suggests that there are a lot of potential variations in
> >> > absorber materials (window screen, aluminum sheet, filter fiber,
> >> > felt), baffle/air channel configuration, absorber placement etc...
>
> These collectors can be more efficient with a "transpired absorber,"
> some sort of mesh that allows 70 F air to flow up between the mesh
> and the glazing and back from south to north through the solar-warmed
> mesh into the house. This keeps cooler air near the glazing and reduces
> reradiation loss through the glazing. The house wall behind the mesh
> should be dark, eg dark green or black.
>
> >> > So the big question is, does anyone know of documented comparative
> >> > testing along these lines?
>
> Gary Reysa has done some of that. I like his air heater design:
>
> http://www.motherearthnews.com/multimedia/image-gallery.aspx?id=74688...
>
> I'd use a single layer of black fiberglass window screen for the mesh.
>
> >> >I've looked but have not found much, so I'm considering building
> >> >a 4ftx8ft scale test bed where I can easily swap out or change
> >> >the "innards" in support of an iterative design process.
>
> Why fuss around with a smaller version, especially if you insist on fans?
>
> Nick

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Free sample of Playtex Sport
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/bcc97aa0968c168a?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 4:55 am
From: "FreebiesPl.us"

Free sample of Playtex Sport
http://freebiespl.us/index.php/Free%20Samples/37-Free%20Samples/373-free-sample-of-playtex-sport

==============================================================================
TOPIC: help-vacuum storage bags
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/65b959b0f598756b?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 5:42 am
From: "mariel2"

Can you please advise, I am getting very confused in choosing some storage
bags for my spare bedding.
The idea was to get some vacuum storage bags but, in the description of one
manufacturer, it is stated that these are not suitable for feathers and down
filled items. Having very little storage space in my home, I desperately
need a solution.
Any comment will be much appreciated.

Best regards.
MS

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 6:53 am
From: val189

On Jul 15, 8:42 am, "mariel2" <mari...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> Can you please advise, I am getting very confused in choosing some storage
> bags for my spare bedding.
> The idea was to get some vacuum storage bags but, in the description of one
> manufacturer, it is stated that these are not suitable for feathers and down
> filled items. Having very little storage space in my home, I desperately
> need a solution.
> Any comment will be much appreciated.
>
> Best regards.
> MS

I can't speak for the down and feather issue, but will say that I had
better luck with the bags you roll (tip: on floor on your belly etc)
to expel the air than the ones needing the vacuum. The latter
eventually did suck in air and expanded. Plus, a vack is not always at
hand.

The roll type I have used to handle soiled clothes while on a trip, or
to pack a lot of bulky things like a winter robe - no suitcase shud b
without one. Also they're good on a boat or RV where space and/or
moisture can be a problem.

I have to laugh tho - in the tv demonstrations, they always show the
stuff jammed in and how much they can pull out etc - but they never
demo how ya get the stuff in the bag in the first place.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 7:10 am
From: Al Bundy

I'm not sure what the vacuum bags are supposed to do to feathers
except crush some. I don't worry about it. I take a pile of winter
down coats and put them neatly in a large strong trash bag. Then I
hook a vacuum up to the end and hold the bag around the nozzle. The
bag shrinks to a tiny package. I twist the end of the bag closed and
remove it from the vacuum and wrap tape around it. Then I wrap the
whole package in both directions with duct tape to prevent expansion.
This works for me and costs very little.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Shouldn't feel this way at my age!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/3a370d079370dd0b?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 7:39 am
From: "Rod Speed"

Rod Speed, ye dim-witted foolish extravagant spirit, ye hath eaten me
out of house and home, and hath put all my substance into that fat belly
of thine, ye extruded:

> dnt no wot 2 do i not on pill, havin unpro sex i want a baby but my
> mum think i stil on pill.i 19 but i i get preg by my boyfriend i dnt
> no how 2 tel mum

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 7:40 am
From: "Rod Speed"

Rod Speed, ye obese trollop, thou art not the flower of courtesy, ye
chewed:

> Solid chemise-lifter with grungy fire rod, mummified cojones, and
> sickly chocolate starfish yearns for pointless fuck ferret for
> hard-driving cajun-clown fucking and exhibitionistic up the bum
> adventures.
>
> If you're interested in kinky sex, email me at
> mailto:rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: cheap product for your beacutiful life accept paypal
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/aa116a1bc0d3585b?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 7:51 am
From: "www.yhnetstore.com"

pls visit my profile , visit my web, accept pay pal , is safe
shopping , pls go go go

low price about much popular product, t-shirt, and sumglass , i think
is very good for you

http://groups.google.com/groups/profile?hl=en&enc_user=OKq37xIAAAA7_r-

wyRRc9Y8aQGHPHqDv8rhlH0Pnl47z4AZhN98BFg

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 7:54 am
From: "www.yhnetstore.com"

pls visit my profile , visit my web, accept pay pal , is safe
shopping , pls go go go

low price about much popular product, t-shirt, and sumglass , i think
is very good for you

http://groups.google.com/groups/profile?hl=en&enc_user=OKq37xIAAAA7_r-

wyRRc9Y8aQGHPHqDv8rhlH0Pnl47z4AZhN98BFg

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11 new messages in 5 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

* Spacing Trips to the Grocery Store? - 7 messages, 4 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/9e5316c7228e6cd4?hl=en
* You are not frugal if...... - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/3c5261ec65743940?hl=en
* turnover damenbekleidung bestellen modische damenbekleidung bestellen olsen
damenbekleidung bestellen groessentabelle damenkleidung kaufen - 1 messages, 1
author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/a3df9747d341bf44?hl=en
* Key Bank and Free iPod; They are doing it again. - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/49979e6dc6b790c8?hl=en
* Is this frugal? - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/060ca487b986915a?hl=en

== 1 of 7 ==
Date: Mon, Jul 14 2008 7:29 pm
From: Terri

unow@example.com wrote in news:ak0n74d9j76po9gviu8jku8dpe04actl5i@4ax.com:

> On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 02:49:00 -0400, in misc.consumers.frugal-living Neon
> John
><no@never.com> wrote:
>
>>A pressure canning cycle takes about 45 minutes so a cycle uses
>>2.1*0.75 = 1.6kWh of electricity.
>
>
> What are you pressure cooking for 45 minutes? I don't think that meat
> even needs to be pressure cooked for that long.

Actually, it does. Even longer, according to the recipes in my canning
books. Glancing at Ball Blue Book for poulty, seafood, tuna and
beef I see a minimum of 1 hour at 10 pnds. It ranges anywhere from 80
minutes to 1 hour and 30 minutes.
Even whole kernel corn in quarts is recommended for over an hour.

== 2 of 7 ==
Date: Mon, Jul 14 2008 8:46 pm
From: lisajoe@privacy.net

On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 21:17:32 -0400, in misc.consumers.frugal-living Neon John
<no@never.com> wrote:

>Oh, I know. Both methods can be optimized. I could buy new high efficiency
>freezers or just better insulate the ones that I have. Again, I was just
>piddling with numbers, looking for order-of-magnitude. If canning had turned
>out to be 20X or 50X or 100X cheaper than freezing then I'd take a second
>look. Since they're in the same order of magnitude, even when ignoring the
>cost of jars and since the cost in either case is minimal, I'll stick with the
>kind of food I like best - fresh from the freezer :-)
>
>John
>
>--
>John De Armond

Ok one last argument from me then.. :) What do you do with all that frozen
food when the power goes out? Maybe it does not go out very often in your area
but it goes out a lot here and I don't have a generator anymore.

== 3 of 7 ==
Date: Mon, Jul 14 2008 8:57 pm
From: Larry Caldwell

In article <g4un74h3hspfkmmku35gs71bthuiu6096v@4ax.com>, no@never.com
(Neon John) says...

> I'm sure that jams would be OK longer than a year but I generally don't do
> those.

IMO, jellies start to go 'off' pretty quickly. I try not to keep home
canned jellies longer than a year, even with vitamin C as a
preservative.

--
For email, replace firstnamelastinitial
with my first name and last initial.

== 4 of 7 ==
Date: Mon, Jul 14 2008 9:25 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

lisajoe@privacy.net wrote
> Neon John <no@never.com> wrote:

>> Oh, I know. Both methods can be optimized. I could buy new high
>> efficiency freezers or just better insulate the ones that I have.
>> Again, I was just piddling with numbers, looking for
>> order-of-magnitude. If canning had turned out to be 20X or 50X or
>> 100X cheaper than freezing then I'd take a second look. Since
>> they're in the same order of magnitude, even when ignoring the cost
>> of jars and since the cost in either case is minimal, I'll stick
>> with the kind of food I like best - fresh from the freezer :-)

> Ok one last argument from me then.. :) What do you
> do with all that frozen food when the power goes out?

Dont open the freezers while the power is off.

> Maybe it does not go out very often in your area but it goes out a lot here

What matters is how long it stays off for when it does go off.

> and I don't have a generator anymore.

== 5 of 7 ==
Date: Mon, Jul 14 2008 9:55 pm
From: lisajoe@privacy.net

On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 20:57:27 -0700, in misc.consumers.frugal-living Larry
Caldwell <firstnamelastinitial@peaksky.com> wrote:

>In article <g4un74h3hspfkmmku35gs71bthuiu6096v@4ax.com>, no@never.com
>(Neon John) says...
>
>> I'm sure that jams would be OK longer than a year but I generally don't do
>> those.
>
>IMO, jellies start to go 'off' pretty quickly. I try not to keep home
>canned jellies longer than a year, even with vitamin C as a
>preservative.

Home canned jams last for years. I've never made jelly so I won't comment.

== 6 of 7 ==
Date: Mon, Jul 14 2008 9:55 pm
From: lisajoe@privacy.net

On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 14:25:00 +1000, in misc.consumers.frugal-living "Rod Speed"
<rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:

>lisajoe@privacy.net wrote
>> Neon John <no@never.com> wrote:
>
>>> Oh, I know. Both methods can be optimized. I could buy new high
>>> efficiency freezers or just better insulate the ones that I have.
>>> Again, I was just piddling with numbers, looking for
>>> order-of-magnitude. If canning had turned out to be 20X or 50X or
>>> 100X cheaper than freezing then I'd take a second look. Since
>>> they're in the same order of magnitude, even when ignoring the cost
>>> of jars and since the cost in either case is minimal, I'll stick
>>> with the kind of food I like best - fresh from the freezer :-)
>
>> Ok one last argument from me then.. :) What do you
>> do with all that frozen food when the power goes out?
>
>Dont open the freezers while the power is off.
>
>> Maybe it does not go out very often in your area but it goes out a lot here
>
>What matters is how long it stays off for when it does go off.
>
]
If I want you're advice I'll rattle the bars of your cage..

== 7 of 7 ==
Date: Mon, Jul 14 2008 10:05 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

lisajoe@privacy.net wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>> lisajoe@privacy.net wrote
>>> Neon John <no@never.com> wrote:

>>>> Oh, I know. Both methods can be optimized. I could buy new high
>>>> efficiency freezers or just better insulate the ones that I have.
>>>> Again, I was just piddling with numbers, looking for
>>>> order-of-magnitude. If canning had turned out to be 20X or 50X or
>>>> 100X cheaper than freezing then I'd take a second look. Since
>>>> they're in the same order of magnitude, even when ignoring the cost
>>>> of jars and since the cost in either case is minimal, I'll stick
>>>> with the kind of food I like best - fresh from the freezer :-)

>>> Ok one last argument from me then.. :) What do you
>>> do with all that frozen food when the power goes out?

>> Dont open the freezers while the power is off.

>>> Maybe it does not go out very often in your area but it goes out a lot here

>> What matters is how long it stays off for when it does go off.

> If I want you're advice I'll rattle the bars of your cage..

So stupid it cant even work out what newsgroups are about.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: You are not frugal if......
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/3c5261ec65743940?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Jul 14 2008 9:18 pm
From: Vic Smith

On Sun, 13 Jul 2008 09:34:24 -0700, Dennis <dgw80@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
>I bought my first brand-new car in 1980, a Datsun (now Nissan) 200SX.
>It had a 2.0L 4-cylinder, 5-speed manual transmission. It was
>supposed to be a sporty little brother to the 280ZX. I used to
>average 35mpg commuting with it, and once got 38mpg over a couple
>tanks on a longer trip down the freeway (in July with the A/C going).
>OK, it had electronic ignition, fuel injection, etc, but it was almost
>(now) 30-year-old technology! Why can't the manufacturers at least
>match that today?
>
Hey, you're driving one.
The 2.0L's now are probably a good bit more efficient than the
Datsun's.
But the cars they're in are heavier. Window motors, beefier seats,
airbags, side impact door bracing, etc.
Thinking about how weight bears on mpg (doh) I looked a bit and found
this:
http://www.helsinki.fi/~mjlaine/Palmenia/sas/tiedostot/cars.sas

It may or may not include your 200SX - not sure whether yours was an
'79, '80 or '81, all of which I assume could be purchased new in 1980.
You can see evident correlations between weight, HP, acceleration and
MPG. Just glanced at it and had to resist loading it into a
spreadsheet for some sorting.
Looked up the 2006 Corolla 1.8L 5-sp manual - curb weight approx
2500-2600 lbs EPA MPG 28/37. It's probably better, as yours is.
So that's as good as the Datsun, and it's a faster, better car.
They could squeeze more MPG out of the Corolla if they lighten it up a
bit.
Those 30 year old cars look better because you were 30 years younger
(-:

--Vic

==============================================================================
TOPIC: turnover damenbekleidung bestellen modische damenbekleidung bestellen
olsen damenbekleidung bestellen groessentabelle damenkleidung kaufen
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/a3df9747d341bf44?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Jul 14 2008 9:52 pm
From: cardesign880@googlemail.com

turnover damenbekleidung bestellen modische damenbekleidung bestellen
olsen damenbekleidung bestellen groessentabelle damenkleidung kaufen

damenkleidung kaufen fuer damenbekleidung bestellen billig
damenkleidung kaufen groesse outdoor bekleidung damen street one
damenbekleidung bestellen second hand damenbekleidung bestellen

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Key Bank and Free iPod; They are doing it again.
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/49979e6dc6b790c8?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Jul 14 2008 10:24 pm
From: Gordon

"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in news:6dvunjF4l3g8U1
@mid.individual.net:

> Gordon <gonzo@alltomyself.com> wrote:
>> clams_casino <PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote in news:6Hwek.20273
>> $oY2.16085@newsfe21.lga:
>>
>>> Gordon wrote:
>>>
>>>> For those of you who were here last year, I related my
>>>> experience (good) with Key bank's offer of a free iPod
>>>> for opening a new checking account.
>>>>
>>>> Well, I just saw an ad in the paper, and they are doing it
>>>> again. Sign up for a new checking account, Use it at least
>>>> 3 times, get a free iPod 3G nano. This year there is an
>>>> option to get an iPod touch.
>>>>
>>>> If you want a free iPod (free is frugal), you should
>>>> look into this.
>>>>
>>>> Note: Be sure to read and understand the fine print or
>>>> you may end up paying fees, or you won't have the right
>>>> transactions to qualify for the iPod.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> They're an older model - based on 8 track.
>>>
>>
>> Older than what??
>> It's the latest Nano widescreen. Barely a year old.
>> You can't get a newer version of the Nano.
>
> It was a joke, Joyce.
>
>
>

OIC.
Actually they do offer the latest models. I signed up
for one last year. About two weeks later, Apple announced
the new line up of iPods. I thought I was going to get
stuck with an outdated toy. But no, when the iPod arrived
in late October, it was the new widescreen Nano (AKA, the
new one that was just announced). YMMV, But they did OK
by me.

As an aside, about three weeks later a little punk tried
to snatch it off me. All I had to do was give him the Evil
Eye and he decided to leave. Quickly.

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Jul 14 2008 10:46 pm
From: The Real Bev

Seerialmom wrote:

--
Cheers, Bev
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Todd Flanders' hobbies include being quiet on long rides,
clapping to songs and diabetes.

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Frugal Living

Blog Archive

Tuesday, July 15, 2008

25 new messages in 7 topics - digest

26 new messages in 11 topics - digest

11 new messages in 5 topics - digest