Frugal Living: 26 new messages in 11 topics

Tuesday, July 15, 2008

26 new messages in 11 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Is this frugal?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/060ca487b986915a?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Jul 14 2008 10:46 pm
From: The Real Bev

Seerialmom wrote:

> On Jul 14, 10:08 am, The Real Bev <bashley101+use...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> clams_casino wrote:
>> > James wrote:
>>
>> >>http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7502071.stm
>>
>> >>Living in a world without waste
>>
>> 34 containers? I don't think so!
>>
>> >>MHO
>> >>For one thing having to wash and dry before recycling can be a waste
>> >>of clean water.
>>
>> Son in North Carolina has to pay $80 for 3,000 gallons. Gardening in
>> the neighborhood is generally minimal -- a serious gardener up the
>> street pays $700/month for water. They don't wash their recyclables either.
>
> 3000 gallons for $80??

Next 1K is $27, pro-rated. They've managed to stay under the limit in
the year they've been there. New area, lots of houses being built, much
new piping etc. needed, plus the water company got stuck with some
high-interest loans that need to be paid off.

> Ugh...we just went to metered water in my
> area...right now our water usage is still "drought level" (dead
> backyard, front yard half dead, dishwasher only when full, etc).
> Luckily the toilet that's used a lot by my son is a low flow 1.6. Our
> utility will charge flat rate for the next couple of months but show
> what we would be charged if it was the metered rate, too. That way we
> can do whatever cutbacks we need to before they actually bill us that
> way.
> I agree with some others about the needing to "rinse"; if it's going
> to take extra water or energy to do that I'll toss it as well.

I laugh when they urge people to water their lawns only every other day.
My "lawn" gets 15 minutes every two weeks and if it doesn't like it it
can move elsewhere. Of course it looks ratty, but it's alive.

--
Cheers, Bev
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Todd Flanders' hobbies include being quiet on long rides,
clapping to songs and diabetes.

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 5:46 am
From: root

The Real Bev <bashley101+usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Water is nearly free, so it's just time. And the principle of the
> thing, of course. Some cities figure that just tossing everything --
> garbage and recyclables -- into the same container and sorting it at the
> plant saves money. Fewer trucks required, for one thing.
>

If they aren't doing it now, recycling companies can develop
equipment to recycle the water they use to wash the
stuff they get. Ordinary people would use drinking water
to wash their recylables; it makes no sense for us
to wash the stuff.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 7:39 am
From: "Rod Speed"

Rod Speed, ye light-fingered gossipmonger, france is a dog hole, and it
no more merits the tread of a man's foot, ye needled:

> Ring-a-Ring o' Rosies, A Pocket full of Posies, A-tishoo! A-tishoo! We
> all fall Down!

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Spacing Trips to the Grocery Store?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/9e5316c7228e6cd4?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 10 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 12:19 am
From: "FarmI"

<unow@example.com> wrote in message
> On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 15:09:12 +1000, in misc.consumers.frugal-living
> "FarmI"
> <ask@itshall be given> wrote:

>>I hate powdered milk in all forms. It's cheap but given the choice
>>between
>>UHT or powdered, I'd choose UHT every time. Fresh is still best but
>>powdered - yuckie poo!

> Powdered milk is good for backpacking and baking.

I can see why it would be convenient for backpacking, but how do you use it
in baking? And why would you use it in baking if you weren't out camping?

== 2 of 10 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 12:27 am
From: "FarmI"

"Neon John" <no@never.com> wrote in message
news:gptl74l0qqsau8c93gcv9hsb7gch0l9r7d@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 14:24:04 +1000, "FarmI" <ask@itshall be given> wrote:
>
>
>>> Makes more sense to get a bread machine and bake more often.
>>
>>Not to us. We prefer a bigger loaf than machines make as we eat a lot of
>>bread, we hated the hole in the bottom of the bread and the cleaning up
>>and
>>we prefer the flavour of oven baked bread.
>>
>
> I'm with you on that. I *hated* the bread machine that I briefly owned.
> Tiny
> little loaves that tasted nothing like what I make by hand, even using the
> same recipe.

I agree, but we must be wrong in this :-)) It seems that you, in common
with me, must be "foolish" and have "mindlessly silly hangups".

Do you think you and I need to say 10 times a day: "I love bread machines"
till we get over our preference for bread made the old fashioned way?

> I make plain old French bread almost exclusively. I'd much rather spend a
> day
> every so often baking, vacuum packaging and freezing a large quantity than
> I
> would fooling with the machine, even if the product came out the same.

There is something elemental in baking bread by hand. I like the rythm of
it as well as the outcome.

> I generally like kitchen gadgets but a bread machine is a glaring
> exception.

I like certain kitchen gadgets. I couuldn't live without my food processor
but a bread machine was just a great lumping obstruction that I grew very
quickly to dislike intensely.

== 3 of 10 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 12:39 am
From: "FarmI"

"Neon John" <no@never.com> wrote in message
> On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 15:09:12 +1000, "FarmI" <ask@itshall be given> wrote:

>>Others have answered the question a from one of the cites (the wiki one) I
>>found that UHT is supposedly available in the US. I know you know and
>>like
>>all sorts of food so it surprses me that you haven't come across UHT. I
>>assume it's not around where you are? How common is it?
>
> UHT is available here but not widely used, judging from the shelf space it
> gets. I've been told by milk drinkers that it has a slightly scorched
> taste.

It does have a slightly different flavour than fresh milk, but even so, I'd
have to rate it as far better than powdered milk. Any ideas why it isn't
more popular than powdered?

> I used to keep some in my RV for cooking but now I just keep some frozen
> packets of regular milk in the freezer.

I've not tried freezing milk (haven't yet needed to do so). Must do so as
an experiment.

>>I've always seen lots of references both here in this thread and other US
>>dominated ngs and on sites that makes me think that powdered milk seems to
>>be much used in the US. Is that so?
>
> Seems so, again, judging by the shelf space it gets.
>
>>
>>I hate powdered milk in all forms. It's cheap but given the choice
>>between
>>UHT or powdered, I'd choose UHT every time. Fresh is still best but
>>powdered - yuckie poo!
>
> I couldn't imagine drinking the stuff (but then, I can't stand milk
> anyway)
> but it's OK for cooking as long as you add enough butter to replenish the
> butterfat.

What sort of recipes do you use it in? I can't ever recall seeing a recipe
that uses powdered milk.

The biggest thing I don't like about it is that it comes in these
> huge boxes that would last 3 lifetimes for me. A couple of neighbors cook
> with it too, so we usually split a box.

:-)) Can't you get the Nestle powdered milk which would be in about a 1 lb
tin?

== 4 of 10 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 12:51 am
From: "FarmI"

"Sheldon" <PENMART01@aol.com> wrote in message
news:6fa6cb59-2db8-4510-82c4-61f89af74250@b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> "FarmI" wrote:
>
>> think for me the only problem would be bananas. ?
>> There is no way to store them in any way.

>Bananas freeze exceptionally well...

Yebbut, they don't taste like fresh bananas. If ya want a fresh banana, a
frozen one just won't do.

== 5 of 10 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 12:57 am
From: "FarmI"

"val189" <gwehrenb@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> On Jul 14, 12:24 am, "FarmI" <ask@itshall be given> wrote:
> We prefer a bigger loaf than machines make as we eat a lot of
>> bread, we hated the hole in the bottom of the bread and the cleaning up
>> and
>> we prefer the flavour of oven baked bread.
>
> I have two bread machines (friend gave me one she wasn't using) - so I
> make two types of bread at a time, baked 'em in oven. No holes, and
> they almost jump out of my nonstick loaf pans.

My bread pans are old fashioned ones that aren't non stick, but I never have
trouble with bread sticking after years of regualr oiling and baking :-)

Mind you though I nearly died at the price of the blasted things when I
bouhght a new pan recently - $35 for the 'real' bread pan with the folded
metal corners!!!!!

> I could never get the hang of kneading, so this system makes me
> happy.

I did a lot of pottery in my youth so I have no trouble kneading a small
batch. It's the big batches I can't manage due to some age related loss of
strength.

I don't run out of bread, I like the product, and I'm not
> paying those store prices. I have no idea if using the big oven vs.
> letting the machines do the baking is more expensive, but I refuse to
> analyze every action.

Wise that, very wise.

== 6 of 10 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 1:29 am
From: "Rod Speed"

FarmI <ask@itshall be given> wrote:
> <unow@example.com> wrote in message
>> On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 15:09:12 +1000, in misc.consumers.frugal-living
>> "FarmI"
>> <ask@itshall be given> wrote:
>
>>> I hate powdered milk in all forms. It's cheap but given the choice
>>> between
>>> UHT or powdered, I'd choose UHT every time. Fresh is still best but
>>> powdered - yuckie poo!
>
>> Powdered milk is good for backpacking and baking.

> I can see why it would be convenient for backpacking,

Much more convenient to not bother with milk at all when backpacking.

> but how do you use it in baking?

Just use an appropriate amount of the powder in with the other
dry ingredients and use water to get the consistency right.

> And why would you use it in baking if you weren't out camping?

So you dont have to fart around with real milk, because it stores indefinitely.

== 7 of 10 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 4:21 am
From: Neon John

On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 20:46:34 -0700, lisajoe@privacy.net wrote:

>Ok one last argument from me then.. :) What do you do with all that frozen
>food when the power goes out? Maybe it does not go out very often in your area
>but it goes out a lot here and I don't have a generator anymore.

There's an uninterruptible power supply in the basement connected to about 800
amp-hours (24 volts) of batteries. It powers my cabin's "vital bus". Lights
(all CF), refrigeration, computer, fan on the wood stove and a few other
things. That'll last about 24 hours. After that, out come the generators. As
in, more than one for redundancy and diversity of fuel supplies. One is
diesel, the other is gasoline with an LP option.

The freezers are on wheels so if the outage happens in winter, I just roll
them outside and let mother nature keep things cold. One advantage to these
old R12 units is that they WILL work in the cold. If it's only in the 30s
outside, they'll still keep the interiors at -20.

I just got a larger UPS that should run my well pump long enough for a short
shower or a few toilet uses. After that, the generators come out again. In
the summer the generators come out pretty quickly so that I can run the AC. I
have central AC but I usually use a portable AC (the kind that has a flex duct
in the window to carry out the hot air) to cool just one "survival" room.

Power here is third world quality so we have to be prepared. I average about
10 hours a week without power, winter and summer. Right-of-way maintenance?
We don't need no steenking ROW maintenance.

The longest that it's been out in modern times was 9 days during the '93
blizzard. More typically, a tree falls across the line somewhere during a
rain storm and it takes most of a day for the co-op contractor to amble up and
cut it down. An average ice storm is good for a couple of days.

I got my (new, blems) batteries and UPSs at a scrap metal yard and paid scrap
prices for them so I have little invested. I use this architecture so that
battery power operates the cabin most of the time.

The generator gets cranked only to rapid-charge the batteries, to run the well
pump, to cook (electric stove) or to shower. I can recharge the pack in just
a few hours and then turn the generator off. It runs either fully loaded or
is off. None of that idling all day with little load, burning half a gallon
an hour of fuel.

I normally keep a 2 week supply of fuel in drums on hand. Plus the 500 gallon
propane tank. Plus both the motorhome and the medium duty diesel cube van are
kept full, about 80 gallons between 'em. The MH has a generator too. If
something bad happens to my cabin (tree through the roof or something like
that) I can retreat to the motorhome and be comfortable, if a bit crowded.

My philosophy on this system is that I'm not going to let power outages
inconvenience me or cause me to change my daily activities. Other than having
to haul fuel about once a year, I've succeeded.

Ya gotta be tough to live in them thar Tennessee hills! :-)

John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
If stupidity hurt then there'd be Aspirin in the salt shakers.

== 8 of 10 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 4:45 am
From: Neon John

On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 17:39:58 +1000, "FarmI" <ask@itshall be given> wrote:

>It does have a slightly different flavour than fresh milk, but even so, I'd
>have to rate it as far better than powdered milk. Any ideas why it isn't
>more popular than powdered?

Cost. The UHT milk is very expensive. TN is a poor state, particularly in
the rural areas. Lots of folks on food stamps and even more working poor.
Powdered milk is quite cheap for the amount it makes.

Around here, logging was the traditional other work besides farming. Most of
the land is owned by the forest service. When the eco-nazis took over the FS
and, contrary to law, they quit leasing logging tracts, work dried up. Now,
you farm, you drive long distances to other towns, you're retired or for a
very few folks, you make money on tourism. Ahhh, tourism, the universal
savior for every area that's run off all its industry. NOT!

>What sort of recipes do you use it in? I can't ever recall seeing a recipe
>that uses powdered milk.

I treat it like whole milk once I add the butter. Puddings, gravy, mashed
potatoes, mac and cheese, etc. As long as the dish doesn't rely heavily on
the taste of milk (Ice cream, for instance), it works pretty well.

I still lean toward frozen milk but my freezers are kinda full right now so I
haven't frozen any in awhile.

>
>The biggest thing I don't like about it is that it comes in these
>> huge boxes that would last 3 lifetimes for me. A couple of neighbors cook
>> with it too, so we usually split a box.
>
>:-)) Can't you get the Nestle powdered milk which would be in about a 1 lb
>tin?

Not conveniently. The (singular) grocery store in town is a Save-a-Lot. In
case you're not familiar, it's a chain that caters to the poor. Cheap house
brands and almost no name brands. Their beef would need a chain saw to cut
but amazingly enough, they carry top of the line IBP brand pork. That store
is 25 miles away.

The closest Wallyworld (on paved roads, at least) is about 60 miles away. Even
they only have the large boxes. I dream of having a Publix or similar premium
store within driving range like I had in Atlanta. Of course, I'd not give up
this paradise for all the Publixes on earth.

Every couple of months I get up a group order with a couple of neighbors, load
up my cube van with coolers and trek about 100 miles to a Sam's club and/or a
restaurant supply warehouse. There I get my quality food like choice+ beef,
whole chickens by the case and stuff like that. I like to buy commodities
like ketchup and mustard and BBQ sauce in case lots of #10 cans. So much
cheaper that way. I'll open a can, split it into several portions and either
freeze or refrigerate them, depending on the keeping qualities of each.

Frozen veggies are another area where restaurant case-lots are vastly cheaper
than at the supermarket, and frankly, they taste just about as good as what I
freeze myself. 20 lbs of kernel corn, green beans, limas, peas, etc., lasts a
LONG time.

Hmm, this post sounds a little negative. It isn't. I love this life and
don't view the periodic long trek to the store as a negative. Something to
look forward to. Plus there's no money leaking away at the C-store for junk
food and such.

John

--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
There is much pleasure in useless knowledge. --Bertrand Russell

== 9 of 10 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 4:53 am
From: Neon John

On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 17:57:10 +1000, "FarmI" <ask@itshall be given> wrote:

>> I could never get the hang of kneading, so this system makes me
>> happy.
>
>I did a lot of pottery in my youth so I have no trouble kneading a small
>batch. It's the big batches I can't manage due to some age related loss of
>strength.

A low table would probably help. I have a genuine 500 lb laminated maple
butcher's block in my kitchen. When I got it I had the top planed down to get
rid of the deep dish and rough surface from years of commercial use. That
plus my 6'7" size means that it falls below my crotch. A bit low for meat
cutting but perfect for dough kneading. I can put all my weight through my
shoulders onto the dough. My hands and elbows are arthritic so I don't even
try to muscle it around like I used to.

You might try a lower table or else find something to stand on to elevate you
a few inches.

== 10 of 10 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 6:44 am
From: me@privacy.net

Neon John <no@never.com> wrote:

>There's an uninterruptible power supply in the basement connected to about 800
>amp-hours (24 volts) of batteries. It powers my cabin's "vital bus". Lights
>(all CF), refrigeration, computer, fan on the wood stove and a few other
>things. That'll last about 24 hours. After that, out come the generators. As
>in, more than one for redundancy and diversity of fuel supplies. One is
>diesel, the other is gasoline with an LP option.

Neon John I'm always amazed at how well EQUIPPED you
are!! You must have tons of stuff sitting around your
house and don't mind that, yes?

I'm of the nature that I try and avoid owning things if
possible and wonder if that is wrong approach. I try
and live lean and mean.... but it does bite me in the
ass.... making me "depend" too much on supply lines and
such.

What is your philosophy on having/owning bunch of stuff
like this? You don't mind it taking up space or having
to move it around?

==============================================================================
TOPIC: BBC googi G-star t-shirts hot sell now .chanel chole handbags new new !!
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http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/46496084e4f789bc?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 12:51 am
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TOPIC: A Small Help To Get You Your Dream Car
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/cfed581bbbb0c99c?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 1:12 am
From: virig

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http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/294b5eaf6da53062?hl=en
==============================================================================

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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Design variations for solar space heater
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/ad2c689d5a582e5f?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 5:27 am
From: nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu

Johnnyo <oetting@ptd.net> wrote:

>> > I'm in the planing and design phase for an 8ftx16ft collector for
>> > supplemental winter space heating for our home in rural PA. Firm
>> > requirements include vertical wall mounting, fan circulation and
>> > opposite corner air inlet and outlet (cold in at the bottom and hot
>> > out at the top). Glazing will be Sun-Lite HP and back of panel
>> > insulation will be rigid polyiso panels.

The glazing might be 2 $64 4'x16' sheets of Dynaglas corrugated
polycarbonate greenhouse roofing from Griffin in Morgantown, PA
installed as "solar siding."

>i chose fan circulation since i already have several suitable DC fans and
>a PV panel to drive them.

A 70 F room on a 30 F day and a C cfm fan in full sun (250 Btu/h-ft^2)
and fully-mixed solar-warmed air at temperature T (F) near the glazing
would look something like this, viewed in a fixed font:

0.9x250x8x16 = 28.8K Btu/h T
--- | 1/C
|-------|-->|--------------------*---------www--- 70
--- |
|
R1/(8x16) = 1/128 |
30 ------www---------------------

which is equivalent to this:

T
1/128 | 1/C
-------www----------------www--- 70
|
| 30+28.8K/128 = 255 F I --->
---
-
|
-

I = (255-70)/(1/128+1/C) = 23.7KC/(128+C) Btu/h with collection efficiency
E = 100I/28.8K = 82C/(128+C)% and average heater air temp T = 70+I/C.

C = 100 cfm makes I = 10.4K Btu/h and E = 36% and T = 174 F.
C = 500 cfm makes I = 18.9K Btu/h and E = 66% and T = 108 F.

What is your fan cfm?

With no fans, just holes at the top and bottom to allow thermosyphoning:

T I --->
1/128 | ---
-------www---------------|-->|-- 70
| ---
| 255 F
---
-
|
-

According to an empirical chimney formula, I = 16.6Asqrt(H)dT^1.5 Btu/h,
with 2 A ft^2 vents and an H' vertical separation. With a 16'x4" slot at
the top and bottom and H = 8', I = 250(T-70)^1.5, and T = 255-I/128, so
T = 70+((255-T)/1.96)^(2/3). Plugging in T = 100 F on the right makes
T = 88.4 on the left. Repeating makes T = 89.3, then 89.2, with
I = 21.1K Btu/h and E = 73%.

>> > Reading posts from the SMEs on this forum as well as many other
>> > sources suggests that there are a lot of potential variations in
>> > absorber materials (window screen, aluminum sheet, filter fiber,
>> > felt), baffle/air channel configuration, absorber placement etc...

These collectors can be more efficient with a "transpired absorber,"
some sort of mesh that allows 70 F air to flow up between the mesh
and the glazing and back from south to north through the solar-warmed
mesh into the house. This keeps cooler air near the glazing and reduces
reradiation loss through the glazing. The house wall behind the mesh
should be dark, eg dark green or black.

>> > So the big question is, does anyone know of documented comparative
>> > testing along these lines?

Gary Reysa has done some of that. I like his air heater design:

http://www.motherearthnews.com/multimedia/image-gallery.aspx?id=74688&seq=1

I'd use a single layer of black fiberglass window screen for the mesh.

>> >I've looked but have not found much, so I'm considering building
>> >a 4ftx8ft scale test bed where I can easily swap out or change
>> >the "innards" in support of an iterative design process.

Why fuss around with a smaller version, especially if you insist on fans?

Nick

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 5:04 am
From: Johnnyo

Thanks Nick and Morris! You are certainly schooling me here.

So i'm finally getting it - the fans are really of no value....better
to save the PV panel for some other project.

Nick - Thanks for the tip on the local Dynaglass source - i was really
wanting to use twinwall polycarb but have not been able to find it
locally, and the shipping/crating charges are steep for a small order
off the internet. Dynaglass seems a great solution.

It looks like the temps are getting rather high so i'm getting a bit
worried about code issues if i stay with a plywood back (thinking of
using existing exterior wall sheathing) and wood sides for the box.
(Thanks to Gary in his articles for pointing this out). Does anyone
know if lining the collector interior with foil faced polyiso would
satisfy the codes? Would think to use aluminum flashing for the
intake & exhaust.

Thanks again guys!
John

On Jul 15, 8:27 am, nicksans...@ece.villanova.edu wrote:
> Johnnyo <oett...@ptd.net> wrote:
> >> > I'm in the planing and design phase for an 8ftx16ft collector for
> >> > supplemental winter space heating for our home in rural PA. Firm
> >> > requirements include vertical wall mounting, fan circulation and
> >> > opposite corner air inlet and outlet (cold in at the bottom and hot
> >> > out at the top). Glazing will be Sun-Lite HP and back of panel
> >> > insulation will be rigid polyiso panels.
>
> The glazing might be 2 $64 4'x16' sheets of Dynaglas corrugated
> polycarbonate greenhouse roofing from Griffin in Morgantown, PA
> installed as "solar siding."
>
> >i chose fan circulation since i already have several suitable DC fans and
> >a PV panel to drive them.
>
> A 70 F room on a 30 F day and a C cfm fan in full sun (250 Btu/h-ft^2)
> and fully-mixed solar-warmed air at temperature T (F) near the glazing
> would look something like this, viewed in a fixed font:
>
> 0.9x250x8x16 = 28.8K Btu/h T
> --- | 1/C
> |-------|-->|--------------------*---------www--- 70
> --- |
> |
> R1/(8x16) = 1/128 |
> 30 ------www---------------------
>
> which is equivalent to this:
>
> T
> 1/128 | 1/C
> -------www----------------www--- 70
> |
> | 30+28.8K/128 = 255 F I --->
> ---
> -
> |
> -
>
> I = (255-70)/(1/128+1/C) = 23.7KC/(128+C) Btu/h with collection efficiency
> E = 100I/28.8K = 82C/(128+C)% and average heater air temp T = 70+I/C.
>
> C = 100 cfm makes I = 10.4K Btu/h and E = 36% and T = 174 F.
> C = 500 cfm makes I = 18.9K Btu/h and E = 66% and T = 108 F.
>
> What is your fan cfm?
>
> With no fans, just holes at the top and bottom to allow thermosyphoning:
>
> T I --->
> 1/128 | ---
> -------www---------------|-->|-- 70
> | ---
> | 255 F
> ---
> -
> |
> -
>
> According to an empirical chimney formula, I = 16.6Asqrt(H)dT^1.5 Btu/h,
> with 2 A ft^2 vents and an H' vertical separation. With a 16'x4" slot at
> the top and bottom and H = 8', I = 250(T-70)^1.5, and T = 255-I/128, so
> T = 70+((255-T)/1.96)^(2/3). Plugging in T = 100 F on the right makes
> T = 88.4 on the left. Repeating makes T = 89.3, then 89.2, with
> I = 21.1K Btu/h and E = 73%.
>
> >> > Reading posts from the SMEs on this forum as well as many other
> >> > sources suggests that there are a lot of potential variations in
> >> > absorber materials (window screen, aluminum sheet, filter fiber,
> >> > felt), baffle/air channel configuration, absorber placement etc...
>
> These collectors can be more efficient with a "transpired absorber,"
> some sort of mesh that allows 70 F air to flow up between the mesh
> and the glazing and back from south to north through the solar-warmed
> mesh into the house. This keeps cooler air near the glazing and reduces
> reradiation loss through the glazing. The house wall behind the mesh
> should be dark, eg dark green or black.
>
> >> > So the big question is, does anyone know of documented comparative
> >> > testing along these lines?
>
> Gary Reysa has done some of that. I like his air heater design:
>
> http://www.motherearthnews.com/multimedia/image-gallery.aspx?id=74688...
>
> I'd use a single layer of black fiberglass window screen for the mesh.
>
> >> >I've looked but have not found much, so I'm considering building
> >> >a 4ftx8ft scale test bed where I can easily swap out or change
> >> >the "innards" in support of an iterative design process.
>
> Why fuss around with a smaller version, especially if you insist on fans?
>
> Nick

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Free sample of Playtex Sport
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/bcc97aa0968c168a?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 4:55 am
From: "FreebiesPl.us"

Free sample of Playtex Sport
http://freebiespl.us/index.php/Free%20Samples/37-Free%20Samples/373-free-sample-of-playtex-sport

==============================================================================
TOPIC: help-vacuum storage bags
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/65b959b0f598756b?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 5:42 am
From: "mariel2"

Can you please advise, I am getting very confused in choosing some storage
bags for my spare bedding.
The idea was to get some vacuum storage bags but, in the description of one
manufacturer, it is stated that these are not suitable for feathers and down
filled items. Having very little storage space in my home, I desperately
need a solution.
Any comment will be much appreciated.

Best regards.
MS

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 6:53 am
From: val189

On Jul 15, 8:42 am, "mariel2" <mari...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> Can you please advise, I am getting very confused in choosing some storage
> bags for my spare bedding.
> The idea was to get some vacuum storage bags but, in the description of one
> manufacturer, it is stated that these are not suitable for feathers and down
> filled items. Having very little storage space in my home, I desperately
> need a solution.
> Any comment will be much appreciated.
>
> Best regards.
> MS

I can't speak for the down and feather issue, but will say that I had
better luck with the bags you roll (tip: on floor on your belly etc)
to expel the air than the ones needing the vacuum. The latter
eventually did suck in air and expanded. Plus, a vack is not always at
hand.

The roll type I have used to handle soiled clothes while on a trip, or
to pack a lot of bulky things like a winter robe - no suitcase shud b
without one. Also they're good on a boat or RV where space and/or
moisture can be a problem.

I have to laugh tho - in the tv demonstrations, they always show the
stuff jammed in and how much they can pull out etc - but they never
demo how ya get the stuff in the bag in the first place.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 7:10 am
From: Al Bundy

I'm not sure what the vacuum bags are supposed to do to feathers
except crush some. I don't worry about it. I take a pile of winter
down coats and put them neatly in a large strong trash bag. Then I
hook a vacuum up to the end and hold the bag around the nozzle. The
bag shrinks to a tiny package. I twist the end of the bag closed and
remove it from the vacuum and wrap tape around it. Then I wrap the
whole package in both directions with duct tape to prevent expansion.
This works for me and costs very little.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Shouldn't feel this way at my age!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/3a370d079370dd0b?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 7:39 am
From: "Rod Speed"

Rod Speed, ye dim-witted foolish extravagant spirit, ye hath eaten me
out of house and home, and hath put all my substance into that fat belly
of thine, ye extruded:

> dnt no wot 2 do i not on pill, havin unpro sex i want a baby but my
> mum think i stil on pill.i 19 but i i get preg by my boyfriend i dnt
> no how 2 tel mum

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 7:40 am
From: "Rod Speed"

Rod Speed, ye obese trollop, thou art not the flower of courtesy, ye
chewed:

> Solid chemise-lifter with grungy fire rod, mummified cojones, and
> sickly chocolate starfish yearns for pointless fuck ferret for
> hard-driving cajun-clown fucking and exhibitionistic up the bum
> adventures.
>
> If you're interested in kinky sex, email me at
> mailto:rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: cheap product for your beacutiful life accept paypal
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/aa116a1bc0d3585b?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 7:51 am
From: "www.yhnetstore.com"

do business on the internet . want buy much popular and inexpensive
price go
china biggest net wholesale company! paypal is very safe shopping
the shoes about 27 usd
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the jeans about 28 usd
each items is very good quality ,inexpensive price, safe deliver, by
ems or tnt
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deliver, by ems or tnt

pls visit my profile , visit my web, accept pay pal , is safe
shopping , pls go go go

low price about much popular product, t-shirt, and sumglass , i think
is very good for you

http://groups.google.com/groups/profile?hl=en&enc_user=OKq37xIAAAA7_r-

wyRRc9Y8aQGHPHqDv8rhlH0Pnl47z4AZhN98BFg

==============================================================================
TOPIC: cheap product for your beacutiful life
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/a735ebacc33d6981?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Jul 15 2008 7:54 am
From: "www.yhnetstore.com"

pls visit my profile , visit my web, accept pay pal , is safe
shopping , pls go go go

low price about much popular product, t-shirt, and sumglass , i think
is very good for you

http://groups.google.com/groups/profile?hl=en&enc_user=OKq37xIAAAA7_r-

wyRRc9Y8aQGHPHqDv8rhlH0Pnl47z4AZhN98BFg

==============================================================================

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Tuesday, July 15, 2008

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