Frugal Living: Feb 16, 2008

Saturday, February 16, 2008

25 new messages in 9 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: How many therms (natural gas) do you use per day (per month)?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/99d004d38152f87d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 14 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 4:29 pm
From: bigjimpack@gmail.com

For the past billing cycle, I used 5.96 therms per day. Last year I
used 6.81 per day. Average temp was 37 F both years. I have replaced
half of the windows in our mid '30's home. I think this helped. I
will replace the others this year and see if I can lower usage more.

On Feb 16, 3:24 pm, "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"
<donna....@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> I'm curious how I compare with others in my natural gas usage.
>
> I used 120 therms in the past 30 days (about 4 therms per day).
> HOW MANY THERMS DID YOU USE LAST MONTH?
>
> I do realize that there are _many_ factors that affect usage but there is
> only one number for your final usage. That's what I'd like to compare.

== 2 of 14 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 4:53 pm
From: gheston@hiwaay.net (Gary Heston)

In article <yvItj.756$pl4.153@newssvr22.news.prodigy.net>,
Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>I'm curious how I compare with others in my natural gas usage.

>I used 120 therms in the past 30 days (about 4 therms per day).
>HOW MANY THERMS DID YOU USE LAST MONTH?

Mine isn't billed in therms, but in cubic feet; between the two houses,
21600 in January.

>I do realize that there are _many_ factors that affect usage but there is
>only one number for your final usage. That's what I'd like to compare.

Since we just went through water usage, let me preempt the next inquiries:

Electricity 1,011 KWH
Sewer $23.04
Garbage pickup $29.00
Tax $15.01

As above, that's for two houses, total of about 1900 square feet, one
occupant.

Gary

--
Gary Heston gheston@hiwaay.net

http://www.thebreastcancersite.com/

We live in amazing times, when one person can invent both the Internet
and global warming, then get awarded a "peace prize".

== 3 of 14 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 5:17 pm
From: Marsha

Gary Heston wrote:
> Mine isn't billed in therms, but in cubic feet; between the two houses,
> 21600 in January.

> Since we just went through water usage, let me preempt the next inquiries:
>
> Electricity 1,011 KWH
> Sewer $23.04
> Garbage pickup $29.00
> Tax $15.01
>
> As above, that's for two houses, total of about 1900 square feet, one
> occupant.
>
>
> Gary
>

Is your garbage pickup through city workers or a private entity? It
seems a lot of people on this group pay more for garbage pickup than we
do, which is $30.00 every 3 months, unlimited. We are in a suburb. The
nearest city used to get free pickup, but they now have to pay an extra
$10.00/month.

Marsha/Ohio

== 4 of 14 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 5:41 pm
From: "pepita@prodigy.net"

My bill states 27 days in the last billing period. 158ccf is the
amount of natural gas that I am being billed for. Is that the same
unit you are referencing?

== 5 of 14 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 5:46 pm
From: "pepita@prodigy.net"

On Feb 16, 8:17 pm, Marsha <m...@xeb.net> wrote:
> Is your garbage pickup through city workers or a private entity? It
> seems a lot of people on this group pay more for garbage pickup than we
> do, which is $30.00 every 3 months, unlimited.

In my city (CT, USA) we have to contract with a private company for
trash removal. There are about a half dozen companies to choose from,
and the price is very close for all of them We pay $24 per month for
weekly trash and recycling pickup.

== 6 of 14 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 5:50 pm
From: "pepita@prodigy.net"

On Feb 16, 8:41 pm, "pep...@prodigy.net" <scrapquil...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> My bill states 27 days in the last billing period. 158ccf is the
> amount of natural gas that I am being billed for. Is that the same
> unit you are referencing?

I should probably have mentioned 30degrees F average daily temperature
for this billing period. 2200 Square foot house, everyone home all
day long, this includes heat and hot water.

== 7 of 14 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 6:08 pm
From: "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"

On Sat, 16 Feb 2008 23:53:17 GMT, Tony Hwang wrote:
> What is therm? Here in Alberta measurement is by the Giga Joule.

Hi Tony Hwang in Australia,

The average American houshold (supposedly) uses:
43,302 kJ/day = 41,045 Btu/day = 0.4105 therm/day
to heat their hot water (kindly calculated by Jeff at
62 US gallons of water raised 80F (27C) each day or 2 1/2
CCF/month.

That would be, in Australian ... something like
0.043302 GigaJoule's per day or 15.8 Giga Joules per year (1.32 Giga Joules
per month on average) just to heat the hot water.

Do you Australians use about 1.32 Giga Joules per month for your hot water?

As for the quantity, 62 US gallons a day would be 1,886 gallons per month,
or 7,135 liters a month in Australian.

This is just for your hot-water needs (120 degree F or 49 degree Celcius
setting on your hot-water heater thermostat).

Does that sound reasonable in Australia?

== 8 of 14 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 6:13 pm
From: Nate Nagel

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator wrote:
>>I used 120 therms in the past 30 days (about 4 therms per day).
>>HOW MANY THERMS DID YOU USE LAST MONTH?
>
>
> I should note that California alots only 2 therms a day for baseline costs
> of about $1.22 per therm (plus 5 cents per therm PPP Surcharge); so
> apparently I'm consuming double the natural gas energy California allows
> (regardless of home size or number of people) for base rates.
>
> The over-baseline charges are $1.37 per therm plus that same 5 cents per
> therm additional charge for poor people (i.e., the California Gas PPP
> Surcharge).
>
> Does ANYONE actually use just 2 therms per day for their gas furnace and
> hot-water heater for two people living in a small 1,500 sqft house?

I use about 5-7 a month for two people in a small house during the
summer, but that includes a stove and dryer as well. I think about 90 a
month for a cold winter month, and this is in a 1948 house that is
pretty much uninsulated except for the attic floor.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

== 9 of 14 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 6:22 pm
From: "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"

On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 02:08:39 GMT, Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator
wrote:

> On Sat, 16 Feb 2008 23:53:17 GMT, Tony Hwang wrote:
>> What is therm? Here in Alberta measurement is by the Giga Joule.
>
> Hi Tony Hwang in Australia,

Oooooops. Canada.

I was thinking Australia when you said Alberta.

Dunno why ... but the math is the same in Albertian that I provided.

== 10 of 14 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 8:03 pm
From: Rick Blaine

Tony Hwang <dragon40@shaw.ca> wrote:

>What is therm?

Approximately 105 megajoules. It's a common billing unit in the US.

== 11 of 14 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 8:05 pm
From: Rick Blaine

"pepita@prodigy.net" <scrapquilter@gmail.com> wrote:

>My bill states 27 days in the last billing period. 158ccf is the
>amount of natural gas that I am being billed for. Is that the same
>unit you are referencing?

Roughly, yes. Your local utility can adjust the ratio though.

== 12 of 14 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 8:24 pm
From: Pat

FWIW, out gas bill comes with averages so you can compare. For
November, their average was just under 30 ccf with an average temp of
44 F

== 13 of 14 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 9:17 pm
From: gheston@hiwaay.net (Gary Heston)

In article <fp81vi$gnn$2@news.datemas.de>, Marsha <mas@bex.net> wrote:
>Gary Heston wrote:
[ ... ]
>> Since we just went through water usage, let me preempt the next inquiries:
[ ... ]
>> Garbage pickup $29.00
[ ... ]

>> As above, that's for two houses, total of about 1900 square feet, one
>> occupant.

>Is your garbage pickup through city workers or a private entity? It
>seems a lot of people on this group pay more for garbage pickup than we
>do, which is $30.00 every 3 months, unlimited. We are in a suburb. The
>nearest city used to get free pickup, but they now have to pay an extra
>$10.00/month.

My pickup is by the city; with two houses, I pay two fees for one person.
It's a flat rate per address, and I generate so little that I put out
perhaps one can a month. Someone who puts out one every month pays the
same as I do. No way around it, though.

Gary

--
Gary Heston gheston@hiwaay.net

http://www.thebreastcancersite.com/

We live in amazing times, when one person can invent both the Internet
and global warming, then get awarded a "peace prize".

== 14 of 14 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 10:11 pm
From: "RVer Don"

2,200 sf house in central California. Two people. Gas water heater,
electric range and clothes dryer. Only a few days in the low thirities.
Mostly high thirities to low forties. Bills ending middle of the month.
November .6 therms per day, December 2.0, January 3.2, February 3.1.
Average monthly usage for 2007 was 1.04 therms per day.

Don in Tracy, Calif.

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
message news:yvItj.756$pl4.153@newssvr22.news.prodigy.net...
> I'm curious how I compare with others in my natural gas usage.
>
> I used 120 therms in the past 30 days (about 4 therms per day).
> HOW MANY THERMS DID YOU USE LAST MONTH?
>
> I do realize that there are _many_ factors that affect usage but there is
> only one number for your final usage. That's what I'd like to compare.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Walmart Nothern VA - Wii
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/cadc8cd3f533d8a1?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 4:51 pm
From: "Stormin Mormon"

Go back and ask eight more employees there. Come here, and let us know what
they said.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus

www.lds.org
.

"Mike" <yard22192@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:69681128-84bc-4f23-b7eb-19263820e9e6@p43g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
Anyone know if Walmart will sell Wii? I went to the Walmart in
Woodbridge by Potomac Mills Mall and 4 Walmart employees said they
don't know. Plus they won't credit my son's Wii console gift card.
Thanks
Mike

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Que: Grits Instant or Quick?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/74702e56ec43a313?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 5:05 pm
From: Derald

">=Martin=<" <mailbox24@gmail.com> wrote:

>This is a Southern question. I make Quaker Instant grits in the
>microwave. What is the difference in 'instant' and 'quick' grits? Do
>they cook the same way?

"Old fashioned" grits cooks in approximately 45 minutes and
requires frequent stirring; "quick" grits cooks in 5 minutes (after
coming to a slow boil) and requires frequent stirring; "instant" grits
is not really grits and does not cook but gets mushy within about a
minute's exposure to water.
Except for the Quaker product, most "quick" and/or "instant" grits
are not grits but are simply ground dried corn, basically, polenta.
"Real" grits is made from hominy and must indicate that fact on the
package.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 7:51 pm
From: hchickpea@hotmail.com

On Sat, 16 Feb 2008 20:05:40 -0500, Derald <derald@invalid.net> wrote:

>">=Martin=<" <mailbox24@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>This is a Southern question. I make Quaker Instant grits in the
>>microwave. What is the difference in 'instant' and 'quick' grits? Do
>>they cook the same way?
>
> "Old fashioned" grits cooks in approximately 45 minutes and
>requires frequent stirring; "quick" grits cooks in 5 minutes (after
>coming to a slow boil) and requires frequent stirring; "instant" grits
>is not really grits and does not cook but gets mushy within about a
>minute's exposure to water.
> Except for the Quaker product, most "quick" and/or "instant" grits
>are not grits but are simply ground dried corn, basically, polenta.
>"Real" grits is made from hominy and must indicate that fact on the
>package.

Wayall, 'cept real southerners make real grits, and after asking
around what the best grits are, we've found that almost all southern
cooks we asked go for Jim Dandy instant grits. We concur that they
make the grade.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/e565eaf98e0e70b6?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 5:06 pm
From: "Stormin Mormon"

Replace the thing, already.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus

www.lds.org
.

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 9:02 pm
From: "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"

On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 15:10:03 -0800 (PST), hallerb@aol.com wrote:
> add be prepared to replace drain valve, which may not shut or drip
> when closed, espically the plastic ones. some valves will clog replace
> tank drain valve with a ball valve at new tank install time

Thank you for all the advice!
You've given us the courage to tackle this ourselves!
Bill and I read *every* post here!

To replace our dripping 40-gallon (65-gallon FHR) home water heater, we
bought the best water heater I could find.

This turned out to be the $450 Sears #33154 (actually manufactured by AO
Smith) 97-gallon First Hour Rating (FHR) and 0.63 Energy Factor (EF),
nominally with a 50-gallon tank and coming with a (rather useless) 12-year
warranty on parts and a slightly useful 1-year warranty on labor.

We're going to do the job tomorrow so I'm reading *everything* I can find
on the net on how to properly remove and install a natural gas home hot
water heater. I'll summarize the steps we plan on taking in a subsequent
posting.

So far, Bill bought $686.47 in parts while I write up every step for him
before we do the work tomorrow, together. He will return any unused parts,
but here is what he bought from Sears today to get ready for the job.

$449.00 Sears #33154 50-gallon 12/1 year hot water heater 97FHR .63EF
$ 2.19 1-ounce TFE paste (for the gas pipe fittings)
$ 9.59 3/4-inch quarter-turn water valve (replaces plastic drain valve)
$ 8.99 3/4-inch CSA gas ball valve (for the gas line)
$ 15.99 3/4-inch swing check valve (for additional heat-loss protection)
$ 7.99 18" 3/4-inch by 3/4 inch FIP corrugated copper/brass flex pipe (x2)
$ 7.49 15" 3/4-inch by 3/4 inch FIP corrugated copper/brass flex pipe (x2)
$ 5.99 12" 3/4-inch by 3/4 inch FIP corrugated copper/brass flex pipe (x2)
$ 12.99 18" 3/4-inch stainless-steel water-heater connector pipe (x2)
$ 10.99 12" 3/4-inch stainless-steel water-heater connector pipe (x2)
$ 8.99 3/4-inch by 3/4-inch Dialectric Union B (x4)
$ 3.59 1.5-inch long 3/4-inch male:male brass pipe nipples (x4)
$ 2.39 1.0-inch long 3/4-inch male:male brass pipe nipples (x3)
$ 52.32 sales tax at 8.25%
--------
$686.47 total

The reason for *both* the copper flex pipe and stainless steel pipe is
because the stainless steel might allow us to not need the dialectric
unions which are huge. Remember, the new tank is five inches taller than
the old tank so we are going to have problems with the plumbing most likely
so having fewer nipples and dialectric unions will shorten the lines a bit.

Do we really need to isolate the copper from the brass from the steel?
We assume so.

Also, we bought the extra one-way check valve even though the water heater
apparently comes with heat-loss protectors and we can s-kink the flex lines
(not the steel lines, just the copper lines).

Do you think the one-way hot-water-outlet check valve will work to slow
heat loss?

Note we didn't buy the insulating blanket for the water heater, nor the
insulation for the hot-water pipes yet. We figured we could do that later.

Our biggest question is whether we really needed the dialectric unions.
Since they were female:female, that necessitated brass nipples on each
side, further lengthening the lines which we need to shorten.

What do you think?
Donna & Bill

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 9:07 pm
From: "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"

On Sat, 16 Feb 2008 22:02:31 -0700, Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator
wrote:
> We're going to do the job tomorrow so I'm reading *everything* I can find
> on the net on how to properly remove and install a natural gas home hot
> water heater. I'll summarize the steps we plan on taking in a subsequent
> posting.

Here are the steps I wrote up for Bill.
I post this to you *before* we tackle the job tomorrow morning.
Did we miss anything important that you have told us to do?
Is anything out of order that you suggested?
Can we skip any of the steps outlined below?
Your timely advice will help us and anyone following this thread!
Thanks,
Donna

HOT-WATER-HEATER REMOVAL:

While the old dripping hot-water heater is still firmly in place ...
- Shut natural gas at the main gas meter
- Shut natural gas at the local hot-water heater
- Ensure the pilot light is out before separating any gas plumbing lines
- Shut the household cold water at the main water valve
- Shut the cold-water inlet to the hot-water heater
- Open all hot-water faucets in the house to drain off pressure
- Wait two hours, if possible, to allow the hot water in the tank to cool
- Connect a garden hose to the water heater drain valve
- Open drain valve and drain hot water where it will not damage anything
- Disconnect garden hose and close drain valve when done (40 or 50 gallons)
- Unbolt earthquake straps (if any)
- Unscrew the sheet-metal screw holding the vent pipe to the draft hood
- Separate the vent pipe from the draft hood
- Unscrew the cold-water inlet at the nipple at the top of the tank
- Unscrew the hot-water outlet at the nipple at the top of the tank
- Unscrew the natural gas inlet to the water-heater thermostat
- Cap the newly disconnected natural gas line to prevent contamination
- Unscrew sheet-metal screws holding gas-flue hat onto the vent pipe
- Separate the vent pipe from the gas-flue hat
- Remove old heater off the elevated base
- Remove all water plumbing up to and including the old shut-off valve
- Remove all gas plumbing up to and including the old shut-off valve

HOT-WATER-HEATER REPLACEMENT:

While the new hot-water heater is sitting on the garage floor ...
- Remove the plastic drain valve & replace with a brass ball valve
- Install the new temperature and pressure (T&P) relief valve
- Install the relief valve relief pipe
- Always use two wrenches when screwing and unscrewing pipe fittings!
MOUNT THE TANK & POSITION THE VENT AND HOOD:
- Mount and level the new hot water heater on the elevated base
- Ensure at least six inches of clear space all around the new heater
- Hacksaw the old gas vent so that it fits the new larger water heater
- Ensure the gas vent aligns with the center of the hot-water heater
- Insert legs of the draft hood into the holes in the top of the heater
- Drill a 1/8 inch hole into the draft hood and 3-inch vent pipe
- Screw in at least 1 sheet-metal screw from the vent hood to the vent pipe
ATTACH THE COLD WATER INLET:
- Wrap Teflon tape on the threads of the fittings supplied with the tank
- Insert the blue heat-trap fitting (arrow down) into the tank cold-water
inlet
- Ensure the last two threads are never covered with Teflon tape
- Do not use pipe dope on any threads where Teflon tape is noted below
- Screw the cold-water inlet male:male nipple into the top of the tank
- Wrap Teflon tape on the thread of the galvanized 3/4" water-inlet pipe
- Screw a dialectric union on the 3/4" galvanized cold-water inlet pipe
- Wrap Teflon tape on the threads of each male:male brass nipple
- Screw the brass male:male nipple on the female:female dialectric union
- Screw a new ball-valve shutoff onto this vertical cold-water inlet pipe
- Wrap Teflon tape on the threads of another male:male brass nipple
- Screw this male:male nipple into the new ball-valve shutoff
- Screw the copper flex pipe onto the cold-water inlet brass nipples
ATTACH THE HOT WATER OUTLET:
- Wrap Teflon tape on the threads of the fittings supplied with the tank
- Ensure the last two threads are never covered with Teflon tape
- Do not use pipe dope on any threads where Teflon tape is noted below
- Insert the red heat-trap fitting (arrow up) into the tank hot-water
outlet
- Wrap Teflon tape on the thread of the galvanized 3/4" water-outlet pipe
- Screw a dialectric union on the 3/4" galvanized hot-water outlet pipe
- Wrap Teflon tape on the threads of each male:male brass nipple
- Screw the brass male:male nipple on the female:female dialectric union
- Screw a new one-way check-valve onto this vertical hot-water outlet pipe
- Wrap Teflon tape on the threads of another male:male brass nipple
- Screw this male:male nipple into the new ball-valve shutoff
- Screw the copper flex pipe onto the hot-water inlet brass nipples
- Bend the copper flex pipe into an S shape to further inhibit heat loss
TURN ON THE WATER SUPPLY:
- Open all the hot-water faucets in the house to bleed out air
- Open the main cold-water input to the house
- Open the new ball-valve cold-water input to the hot-water heater
- Check for leaks as the tank fills
- Place a pan or bowl at the T&P overflow tube & test the T&P valve
ATTACH THE NATURAL GAS INLET:
- Always connect the natural gas line as the very last step in this process
- Set the thermostat to the off position
- Coat male natural gas line threads with stick pipe dope (never Teflon
tape)
- Ensure the last two threads are not covered with any pipe dope
- Connect the new natural gas flex pipe with shutoff valve to the
thermostat
- Turn on natural gas at the main switch
- Turn on natural gas at the local inlet to the water heater
- Test for leaks by toothbrushing a solution of dish detergent and water
- Read and carefully follow the manufacturer's lighting instructions
INSULATION:
- Wrap additional insulation around your hot-water heater, if desired
- Wrap insulation around your hot-water outlet pipe, if desired
DISPOSAL:
- Call the local garbage or recycling to haul away the old water heater
YEARLY MAINTENANCE:
- Place a pan or bowl at the T&P overflow tube & test the T&P valve
- Shut the natural gas flow valve to your water heater
- Close the cold-water intake at the top of the water heater
- Open at least one hot-water faucet on any level above the water heater
- Connect a garden hose to your hot water heater drain valve
- Open water heater drain valve & empty where hot water won't damage things
- Shut the drain valve when that water runs clear (approx 10 gallons)
- Remove and inspect sacrificial anode (replace if corroded badly)
- Leave the hot water faucet(s) open
- Open the cold-water valve intake to the water heater
- Run hot-water faucets for at least 10 second (or until sputtering stops)
- Turn the natural gas back on and ensure flame ignites in the burner

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Driver
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/f899b560aa190a67?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 6:51 pm
From: "Dave"

"Bob F" <bobnospam@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:662dnQkgr5_CmCjanZ2dnUVZ_jGdnZ2d@comcast.com...
>
> "Jeff" <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote in message
> news:13r94ohm155803b@corp.supernews.com...
>> jenkins419@gmail.com wrote:
>>> Were would I find drivers for the emachine modem 56K ITU v.92-ready
>>> Fax/Modem, Model T2742, check wedsite unable to get the drivers, does
>>> anyone have them out there?
>>>
>>
>> Like Duh,
>>
>> Google: T2742 modem driver
>>
>> Yield this as the first hit:
>>
>>
>> http://www.emachines.com/support/product_support.html?cat=Desktops&subcat=T-Series&model=T3624
>
> Cheater.

Cheated, and still lost. How pathetic. Google was a good idea, but there
is nothing in the result that seems to suggest that there is a solution for
the OP. The downloads are for a different model computer. Might work,
might totally fuck up his system to the point where he can't even access
safe mode to do a rollback. It's generally not a good idea to try some
random driver hoping that it will work OK. -Dave

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Printable Grocery Coupons - Mommy Savers
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/ef2a5ceda0f935cd?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 8:18 pm
From: xikom01@yahoo.com.tw

Are Mommies shopping smarter with online coupons and printable grocery
coupons?

Some of us search endlessly for bargains online and easy ways to save
money while some of us are content with just a small discount or deal.

Whether we are shopping online for clothes, auto parts, gifts,
electronics, or computers, We all share one thing in common, we all
want a great bargain, or some sort of reasonable discount.

We all know that discount coupons are great ways to save money, and IM
sure all the mommies out there can agree with me.

10 years ago many of us would wait for those Sunday newspapers,
catalogs or magazines in order to clip some discount coupons, I call
them coupon mommy savers because 90% of consumers who use coupons are
mommies. (lol)

Today mommies are shopping smarter, with the Internet the old days of
clipping coupons are soon fading away, they are noticing that there
are great coupon savings online.

There are also great online coupon sites that spend their entire days
searching for printable grocery coupons and online coupon codes, they
provide consumers with a list of free discount coupons that are very
much appreciated, however you must take precautions.

Here are some online coupon shopping safety tips for beginners:

1) Stay away from online coupon sites that ask you for your personal
information in order for you to print your discount coupon , You will
get 100s of spam emails for every discount

http://www.dontplayplay.com/html/Bothsexes/20061002/46920.html

==============================================================================
TOPIC: wholesale all laptops,mobile phone http://www.fashion-sky.com
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/3a60367f2fc62b77?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 8:38 pm
From: fashion-sky.002@hotmail.com

NOKIA N95 $250
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We wholesale all laptops
Sony VGN-CR13/B 380$
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Apple MacBook(MA701CH/A) 550$
Apple MacBook Pro （MA610CH/A） 650$
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Apple MacBook (MA699CH/A) 580$

==============================================================================
TOPIC: .com Domains for $6.95 and Hosting for $3.99 per month (99.9% Uptime!)
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/aa8254e0bc9bb967?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 9:20 pm
From: fractalien

.com Domains for $6.95:
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==============================================================================
TOPIC: www.cheapforwholesale.com Cheap LV AF1 25th AF1 prada timberland shoes
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/19068e6efa9a98f1?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 9:46 pm
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25 new messages in 11 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
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Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Quit Buying Junk and Destroying tThe Globe
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/04c61287dda5c12d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 10:26 am
From: Drop_the_chalupa_RodSpeed

On Feb 16, 12:02 pm, Cheapo Groovo <c...@nospam.com> wrote:
> http://cheapogroovo.vox.com/library/post/the-story-of-stuff.html

Commie!

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 10:36 am
From: clams_casino

Drop_the_chalupa_RodSpeed wrote:

>On Feb 16, 12:02 pm, Cheapo Groovo <c...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>
>>http://cheapo
>>
>Commie!
>
>

Don't you mean SPAMMER?

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Stamps to Cost a Penny More
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/729cf5df8392523c?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 10:32 am
From: clams_casino

KarlMarx_MiddleClass_Ipod_HipHop wrote:

>On Feb 15, 3:48 pm, clams_casino <PeterGrif...@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:
>
>
>>A way to make a million dollars - buy up ten million stamps at 41 cents
>>each & resell them at 42 cents.
>>
>>vs. the ebay way - start with 2M & end up with 1M.
>>
>>
>
>
>100 million stamps needed @ 1 cent profit on arbitrage
>
>
>
It's called eBay math. Millions of eBayers think they are making money
with the same math.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Use patio furniture as front room furniture?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/f67d143f0a103614?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 11:05 am
From: Tony Sivori

me wrote:

> Am on a very tight budget
>
> anyone ever think abt using patio furniture indoors as front room
> furniture?
>
> You can buy a well made set of patio furniture.... chair, love seat,
> coffee table, end table... for abt $500 total. It is lightweight and
> sturdy and made of plastic "wicker".
>
> Anyone doing it? Work ok?
>
> see link
>
> http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=2519819

The only way I would consider that is if you have a patio, and you plan to
use it a lot. You could use the patio furniture as temporary living room
furniture until you could buy real living room furniture. Then move the
patio furniture to the patio. Otherwise, I don't think it would be money
well spent,.

If there is a Wal-Mart where you live there is almost certainly low end
furniture discounters. You should be able to get real living room
furniture for about the same price, but by the time you add end tables it
probably will be a little more.

If you simply can't afford it, you could buy some $20 bean bag chairs
until you can pay cash for your furniture.

In times past I would recommend used furniture, just as many in this
thread have already done. Now, I specifically recommend against used
furniture. Bed bugs are making a comeback, and since DDT is long outlawed,
they are very difficult to get rid of.

The common methods of transmission are hotel room stowaways in luggage and
used furniture, and not just mattresses.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bedbug

http://magazinearticles.angieslist.com/featuredarticles/2004_8.htm

http://www.ca.uky.edu/entomology/entfacts/ef636.asp

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Predictions on oil costs for next decade
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/4d8ed6676617cb7f?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 11:53 am
From: "Rod Speed"

Drop_the_chalupa_RodSpeed <kwokx2@hotmail.com> wrote
> Just A User <k...@up-yours-spammer.net> wrote
>> Drop_the_chalupa_RodSpeed wrote

>>> I bet oil drops a lot in price for the US consumer.

Unlikely while ever the USD keeps sagging.

>> Not likely as the global demand for oil keeps increasing.

> Yep, so if that is the case, maybe investing in energy conservation should pay off?

Not like that it wont whileever the US continues to keep pouring trillions down the rat hole called Iraq.

> I think we are on the brink of cheaper long-run energy costs via alternative energy.

Not a chance. We've been trying to do that for decades now, it aint gunna change any time soon.

> I am Pollyannish about it for a reason. Almost a devil's advocate too.
> Once fuel prices go to $4 or $5 or $ 6 per gallon here
> in the US, consumers will either stop consuming

Not for their cars they wont. They are such a fundamental part of the
design of modern citys now that there is no way to stop consuming.

> or look for a cheaper energy source.

We've been looking for decades now, we arent going to find one.

Higher oil prices will make a number of other alternatives competitive,
most obviously with hydrogen from nukes, but thats going to need
higher oil prices before thats viable, not lower.

> They will not care if they get 1% returns on their stocks or bonds
> or houses annually. They will want relief from paying an inordinate
> amount of their income to heat their houses or fuel their cars.

Sure, they will certainly want that. Pity we are fresh out of magic wands to wave to get it.

Certainly both can be done using nukes, but that needs higher
than current oil prices, its not viable with lower oil prices.

> The run-up in gasoline costs in the past 5 years has been met
> with no great increases in wages but increases in housing and
> insurance and just about anything that is necessary.

But lower interest rates, and thats where a hell of a
lot of the income of many ends up, most obviously with
mortgages and even renters effectively pay that too.

> Unless something gives and costs drop somewhere, take home pay for
> US consumer will not be geared for spending much on anything anymore.

Fantasy. We havent even seen many abandoning their gas guzzling SUVs for
more fuel efficient cars and have seen hordes with utterly bizarre commutes.
We havent even seen many of those get enough of a clue and use buses for
the commute. Or many work at home and stop commuting either.

> Extend credit only so long. That is why I think oil prices will need to drop.

It aint gunna happen for that reason and the US
consumer is only a small part of world demand anyway.

And the europeans have been paying twice what the US consumer pays for gasoline
for something like 50 years now without that having any effect on the price of oil.

> As other countries develop and devote more of their discretionary
> income to oil costs, they catch up to US standards of living.

Western europe has been doing that for 50 years or more now and
manage it fine with gasoline prices often twice what the US consumer pays.

> Say what you want RodSpeed, but the USA has a standard of living
> and low costs that many countries would really want to have.

Yes, and some like the chinese have much lower costs
and are getting the higher standard of living fine.

> I can not see average American going for reduced standards of living without deciding
> to bail on the oil companies eventually and starting home- grown energy projects.

Have fun heating your house that way in the city.

Have fun fueling your car that way in the city too.

You can certainly choose to eliminate the commute and work from home instead, but that
sort of work is very easy to export to india etc too where they get much lower wages again.

I think its unlikely that the oil price will drop all that much, essentially because
of the increased demand from places like india and china and everyone will
just have to adjust to the oil prices, just like we did in the past.

If the oil prices gets much higher, that will make nukes economically viable,
but they wont be without a higher oil price, particularly for fueling cars.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 3:47 pm
From: Cheapo Groovo

In article <54-dnb-0PJD8vCranZ2dnUVZ_uPinZ2d@giganews.com>, ken@up-
yours-spammer.net says...
> Drop_the_chalupa_RodSpeed wrote:
> > I bet oil drops a lot in price for the US consumer.
>
> Not likely as the global demand for oil keeps increasing.
>

http://cheapogroovo.vox.com/library/post/oil-outlook.html
This is the reality. Wake up folks!

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 12:18 pm
From: Mike

Anyone know if Walmart will sell Wii? I went to the Walmart in
Woodbridge by Potomac Mills Mall and 4 Walmart employees said they
don't know. Plus they won't credit my son's Wii console gift card.
Thanks
Mike

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 1:23 pm
From: ">=Martin=<"

This is a Southern question. I make Quaker Instant grits in the
microwave. What is the difference in 'instant' and 'quick' grits? Do
they cook the same way?

== 1 of 11 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 12:24 pm
From: "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"

I'm curious how I compare with others in my natural gas usage.

I used 120 therms in the past 30 days (about 4 therms per day).
HOW MANY THERMS DID YOU USE LAST MONTH?

I do realize that there are _many_ factors that affect usage but there is
only one number for your final usage. That's what I'd like to compare.

== 2 of 11 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 1:28 pm
From: "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"

> I used 120 therms in the past 30 days (about 4 therms per day).
> HOW MANY THERMS DID YOU USE LAST MONTH?

I should note that California alots only 2 therms a day for baseline costs
of about $1.22 per therm (plus 5 cents per therm PPP Surcharge); so
apparently I'm consuming double the natural gas energy California allows
(regardless of home size or number of people) for base rates.

The over-baseline charges are $1.37 per therm plus that same 5 cents per
therm additional charge for poor people (i.e., the California Gas PPP
Surcharge).

Does ANYONE actually use just 2 therms per day for their gas furnace and
hot-water heater for two people living in a small 1,500 sqft house?

== 3 of 11 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 2:14 pm
From: Anthony Matonak

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator wrote:
>> I used 120 therms in the past 30 days (about 4 therms per day).
>> HOW MANY THERMS DID YOU USE LAST MONTH?
...
> Does ANYONE actually use just 2 therms per day for their gas furnace and
> hot-water heater for two people living in a small 1,500 sqft house?

I'm only one person but I average about 5 therms a month.
In the winter it's slightly more.

Anthony

== 4 of 11 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 2:31 pm
From: Jeff

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator wrote:
> I'm curious how I compare with others in my natural gas usage.
>
> I used 120 therms in the past 30 days (about 4 therms per day).
> HOW MANY THERMS DID YOU USE LAST MONTH?
>
> I do realize that there are _many_ factors that affect usage but there is
> only one number for your final usage. That's what I'd like to compare.

Well, how cold is your climate? How well insulated is your house? What
is your indoor temperature?

I'm in a mild climate (~ 2700 degree days a year, that's cooler than
LA and warmer than San Francisco) with nightime average lows in the
30's. Currently I'm all electric, with electric space heaters and am
living in about half of a 2000 SF house. I used 850 kWhrs or about 30
therms last month and I think it may have historically been a bit above
average in temps.

Now, I actively try to reduce consumption (I'm in a 1920 house). Your
useage for a mild climate seems high to me. Not for a cold climate though.

Jeff

== 5 of 11 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 2:41 pm
From: "Colbyt"

We use about 100MCF per year for 2600 square feet. We used 22.3 or almost a
1/4 of our yearly usage last month.

That was with a 37.7 average daily temperature. That should be our coldest 4
weeks of the winter. Knock on wood! :)

To be fair, I was home more during the day than normal so I over-rode the
setback more.

Once upon a time I could convert therms to MCF but that is long since
forgotten.

== 6 of 11 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 2:55 pm
From: Rick Blaine

"Colbyt" <colbyt@-SPAMBLOCK-lexkyweb.com> wrote:

>Once upon a time I could convert therms to MCF but that is long since
>forgotten.

10.31 therms = 1 MCF

== 7 of 11 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 3:15 pm
From: "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"

On Sat, 16 Feb 2008 14:14:46 -0800, Anthony Matonak wrote:
> I'm only one person but I average about 5 therms a month.

Wow. 5 therms a month is extremely low, it seems to me.

The US Department of Energy assumes the "average" houshold uses a bit less
than 1/2 a therm a day *just* for the water heater alone!

43,302 kJ/day = 41,045 Btu/day = 0.4105 therm/day

That would be 15 therms a month just for hot water for the average
household in America. I wonder if Europe uses the same amount?

REFERENCES:
Calculating water heater costs for meaningful comparisons
http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/W/AE_water_heater_cost.html
365 × 0.4105/EF × fuel cost (therm) = estimated annual cost of operation

Review of hot water heaters
http://www.consumersearch.com/www/house_and_home/water-heaters/review.html
365 X 0.4105/EF X Fuel Cost (therm) = estimated annual cost of operation

== 8 of 11 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 3:36 pm
From: CJT

Colbyt wrote:
> "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
> message news:yvItj.756$pl4.153@newssvr22.news.prodigy.net...
>
>>I'm curious how I compare with others in my natural gas usage.
>>
>>I used 120 therms in the past 30 days (about 4 therms per day).
>>HOW MANY THERMS DID YOU USE LAST MONTH?
>>
>>I do realize that there are _many_ factors that affect usage but there is
>>only one number for your final usage. That's what I'd like to compare.
>
>
> We use about 100MCF per year for 2600 square feet. We used 22.3 or almost a
> 1/4 of our yearly usage last month.
>
> That was with a 37.7 average daily temperature. That should be our coldest 4
> weeks of the winter. Knock on wood! :)
>
> To be fair, I was home more during the day than normal so I over-rode the
> setback more.
>
> Once upon a time I could convert therms to MCF but that is long since
> forgotten.
>
>
FWIW, we used 43 MCF last year. About half that was for cooking and hot
water, and the other half for heating (but it's pretty warm here in
Texas).

--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form che...@prodigy.net.

== 9 of 11 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 3:40 pm
From: CJT

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator wrote:

> On Sat, 16 Feb 2008 14:14:46 -0800, Anthony Matonak wrote:
>
>>I'm only one person but I average about 5 therms a month.
>
>
> Wow. 5 therms a month is extremely low, it seems to me.
>
> The US Department of Energy assumes the "average" houshold uses a bit less
> than 1/2 a therm a day *just* for the water heater alone!
>
> 43,302 kJ/day = 41,045 Btu/day = 0.4105 therm/day
>
> That would be 15 therms a month just for hot water for the average
> household in America.

FWIW, we're apparently almost exactly average.

I wonder if Europe uses the same amount?
>
> REFERENCES:
> Calculating water heater costs for meaningful comparisons
> http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/W/AE_water_heater_cost.html
> 365 × 0.4105/EF × fuel cost (therm) = estimated annual cost of operation
>
> Review of hot water heaters
> http://www.consumersearch.com/www/house_and_home/water-heaters/review.html
> 365 X 0.4105/EF X Fuel Cost (therm) = estimated annual cost of operation

--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form che...@prodigy.net.

== 10 of 11 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 3:53 pm
From: Tony Hwang

Jeff wrote:
> Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator wrote:
>
>> I'm curious how I compare with others in my natural gas usage.
>>
>> I used 120 therms in the past 30 days (about 4 therms per day).
>> HOW MANY THERMS DID YOU USE LAST MONTH?
>>
>> I do realize that there are _many_ factors that affect usage but there is
>> only one number for your final usage. That's what I'd like to compare.
>
>
>
> Well, how cold is your climate? How well insulated is your house? What
> is your indoor temperature?
>
> I'm in a mild climate (~ 2700 degree days a year, that's cooler than
> LA and warmer than San Francisco) with nightime average lows in the
> 30's. Currently I'm all electric, with electric space heaters and am
> living in about half of a 2000 SF house. I used 850 kWhrs or about 30
> therms last month and I think it may have historically been a bit above
> average in temps.
>
> Now, I actively try to reduce consumption (I'm in a 1920 house). Your
> useage for a mild climate seems high to me. Not for a cold climate though.
>
> Jeff
Hi,
What is therm? Here in Alberta measurement is by the Giga Joule.

== 11 of 11 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 3:53 pm
From: Jeff

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator wrote:
> On Sat, 16 Feb 2008 14:14:46 -0800, Anthony Matonak wrote:
>> I'm only one person but I average about 5 therms a month.
>
> Wow. 5 therms a month is extremely low, it seems to me.
>
> The US Department of Energy assumes the "average" houshold uses a bit less
> than 1/2 a therm a day *just* for the water heater alone!

That is really low. But how much hot water do you use and how well
insulated is the tank? Also, that average is probably for a 4 person
household.
>
> 43,302 kJ/day = 41,045 Btu/day = 0.4105 therm/day

OK. That's about 62 gallons of water raised 80F each day (That's 2 1/2
CCF / month), not including losses. An good insulated blanket will cut
tank thermal losses dramatically for much less cost than a tankless.
>
> That would be 15 therms a month just for hot water for the average
> household in America. I wonder if Europe uses the same amount?

Nobody wastes energy like the US.

Jeff
>
> REFERENCES:
> Calculating water heater costs for meaningful comparisons
> http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/W/AE_water_heater_cost.html
> 365 × 0.4105/EF × fuel cost (therm) = estimated annual cost of operation
>
> Review of hot water heaters
> http://www.consumersearch.com/www/house_and_home/water-heaters/review.html
> 365 X 0.4105/EF X Fuel Cost (therm) = estimated annual cost of operation

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Find a Discount Gucci Handbag - Find Sales on Discount Gucci Handbags
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/686cd5718add69d1?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
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25 new messages in 12 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 3:04 am
From: "Bob Shuman"

Donna,

Why should a water heater be any different then any other purchasing
decision? (Referring to your telling your husband what to do on this...)

Bob

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
message news:wSutj.8886$0o7.1234@newssvr13.news.prodigy.net...
> On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 12:37:35 -0600, Bob Shuman wrote:
>> I already posted my thoughts on warranty as well in a previous reply.
>> The
>> bottom line here is you certainly know more than enough to make an
>> informed
>> choice.
>
> Hi Bob,
> My husband returns tomorrow.
> I'll give him all your information and then tell him what choice to make!
> Donna

== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 4:11 am
From: Nate Nagel

Vic Smith wrote:
> On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 21:30:25 -0500, Nate Nagel <njnagel@roosters.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>>Vic Smith wrote:
>
>
>>>BTW, I found that the Impala never came with a 3.1.
>>>It's a 3.4 or 3.8.
>>>
>>>--Vic
>>
>>Duh, brain fart on my part. It is indeed a 3.4, which is a 2.8/3.1
>>based engine. Same basic engine, but larger displacement.
>>
>
> I was thinking about an Impala as my next used car, but have to check
> out the 3.4 first. Might go for a Malibu which I can get with a 3.1.
> In 2005 I rented a Malibu with 2.2 for a Florida trip and got 34mpg
> highway. Seemed less thirsty in the city than a six, and had plenty
> of power for me. I was surprised when I checked the oil before the
> trip, and found it was a 2.2. A lot different than the 2.2 I have in
> the '90 Corsica. Much quieter and more powerful.
>
> --Vic

I'm not particularly enamored of the Impala to be perfectly honest with
you... it's a little underpowered, doesn't handle well, is very loud
inside, and has lots of little ergonomic glitches. Plus I've heard the
3800 is the engine to get, not the 3.4. The newer (06-up) cars have a
3.5 as the base engine and at least one of my complaints (awful door
handles that eat your fingernails) has been fixed, although I haven't
driven one...)

Of course, I may be biased as my previous two daily drivers were a
Porsche 944 and a VW GTI 1.8T, so I may be slightly spoiled by good cars...

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 4:13 am
From: Nate Nagel

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 19:33:41 GMT, Bob Shuman wrote:
>
>>If you pay someone to install, then warranty may not be as important,
>
>
> I've learned that I agree with you.
> The warranty is for the fire-and-forget type of homeowner.
> The one who doesn't flush twice yearly, who doesn't add the second anode,
> who doesn't replace the anode after a few years, who doesn't add the ball
> valve, etc.
>
> Even then, the owner with the warranty has to bring the soaking wet heater
> in the back of their car in to the manufacturer after their 1-year is up on
> their supposed 12-year warranty - or else pay as much for the plumber to
> visit ($400) as the heater cost in the first place ($400) to obtain the
> 'free' heater.
>
> Some deal, that 12-year warranty!
>
> Or am I reading it wrong?

You're pretty much right, although you still might find that within a
particular model line there are some quality/efficiency/construction
differences between the 6-year and 12-year models. you'll have to
evaluate those on a case by case basis though.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 4:15 am
From: Nate Nagel

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 12:37:35 -0600, Bob Shuman wrote:
>
>>I already posted my thoughts on warranty as well in a previous reply. The
>>bottom line here is you certainly know more than enough to make an informed
>>choice.
>
>
> Hi Bob,
> My husband returns tomorrow.
> I'll give him all your information and then tell him what choice to make!
> Donna

Please don't do that when I'm drinking coffee... my nose is burning
now... Somehow I seriously doubt you're related to SWMBO but you
certainly sound like you could be! :)

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 6:45 am
From: "hallerb@aol.com"

On Feb 16, 7:13�am, Nate Nagel <njna...@roosters.net> wrote:
> Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 19:33:41 GMT, Bob Shuman wrote:
>
> >>If you pay someone to install, then warranty may not be as important,
>
> > I've learned that I agree with you.
> > The warranty is for the fire-and-forget type of homeowner.
> > The one who doesn't flush twice yearly, who doesn't add the second anode,
> > who doesn't replace the anode after a few years, who doesn't add the ball
> > valve, etc.
>
> > Even then, the owner with the warranty has to bring the soaking wet heater
> > in the back of their car in to the manufacturer after their 1-year is up on
> > their supposed 12-year warranty - or else pay as much for the plumber to
> > visit ($400) as the heater cost in the first place ($400) to obtain the
> > 'free' heater.
>
> > Some deal, that 12-year warranty!
>
> > Or am I reading it wrong?
>
> You're pretty much right, although you still might find that within a
> particular model line there are some quality/efficiency/construction
> differences between the 6-year and 12-year models. �you'll have to
> evaluate those on a case by case basis though.
>
> nate
>
> --
> replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.http://members.cox.net/njnagel- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

more expensive heater tend to have better materials, like brass drain
valves rater than plastic ones. plastics only job is to drain once at
end of life.. helped a buddy his plastic valves stem snapped off
trying to open it.....

we pushed the heater over on its side, and drained thru the fill lines
and T&P valve

a full 50 gallon tank is heavy,,,,,

400 pounds of water and at least a couple hundred for tank

==============================================================================
TOPIC: New Idea For Going Green
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/627ce12a40076350?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 3:09 am
From: Johnnie In The Billows

Recycle your chewing gum! Don't buy a new stick and spit it out on
the pavement after ten minutes.

Remember the old days, when people made a single gumball last for
three months!! (When not in use, you can stick it on your dashboard,
under the rim of the table, on the sole of your shoe, etc.)

Preserve the gum trees and save our sidewalks at the same time.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 4:42 am
From: "The Thack"

"Johnnie In The Billows" <brightice2001@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:01b695fc-6e79-4bb0-8c7f-d7867913edf9@q78g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> Recycle your chewing gum! Don't buy a new stick and spit it out on
> the pavement after ten minutes.
>
> Remember the old days, when people made a single gumball last for
> three months!! (When not in use, you can stick it on your dashboard,
> under the rim of the table, on the sole of your shoe, etc.)
>
> Preserve the gum trees and save our sidewalks at the same time.

Better still, shove it up your arse, you fucking waste of space.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Sewing Machines: Making A Comeback?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/04891ec8941a20e8?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 3:50 am
From: Al Bundy

On Feb 15, 5:06 pm, rota6...@yahoo.com.tw wrote:
> While we don't have to rely on sewing machines to satisfy our basic
> clothing needs, more and more people today turn to sewing to create
> unique, luxurious, one-of-a-kind pieces. Every family has that hand
> embroidered grandmother's table cloth or a hand-made quilt, and these
> pieces are as cherished as the most sophisticated haute couture
> creations. And instead of paying hefty sums to someone for creating
> these little pieces of luxury for you, you can develop the easy skills
> of making your own monograms, embroideries or even hand-sewn button-
> holes - all the little luxuries that make the difference.
>
> With the help of a reliable sewing machine, you can instantly
> personalize a lot of everyday necessities. For example, you can create
> a set of unique napkins or add a classy touch to your bed linen and
> bath towels with a monogram. And with a little practice you can even
> alter and mend your clothes.
>
> When choosing your first sewing machine, make sure you understand how
> much sewing you plan to do. The honest answer will save you money and
> time, as you will not pick a too complex and upscale sewing machine
> for your basic sewing needs.
>
> If you plan to study sewing and even recreate expensive designer
> clothes to save money, you will need a more upscale sewing machine.
> Sewing your own clothes makes sense only if your sewing skills are
> high enough to recreate high-end clothes, such as suits, jackets and
> dresses. You won't save money on sewing your own jeans, because the
> pattern, fabric, buttons, and the time spent will make this pair of
> jeans more expensive than any of the designer creations. However,
> sewing children's clothes does make sense, because you need little
> fabric, and you don't really need complicated patterns.
>
> A sewing machine is a great investment for those who have a passion
> for clothes design and like to wear one-of-a-kind pieces and don't
> want to limit their clothing choices to what they see in department
> stores. With a sewing machine and a little patience you have full
> control on where the pockets go, what kind of buttons you use, and
> where the hemline stops. You should be aware that creating clothes
> from scratch or even amending the existing pattern requires
>
If your time is worth anything, sewing clothes is too big a waste of
it.
The big savings is in fixing and altering clothes, which can be done
quickly and with a low end machine.

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 5:34 am
From: Anthony Matonak

Al Bundy wrote:
...
> If your time is worth anything, sewing clothes is too big a waste of
> it.
> The big savings is in fixing and altering clothes, which can be done
> quickly and with a low end machine.

I think welders are making a comeback. The big savings is in
fixing and altering cars. :)

Anthony

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 8:38 am
From: Samantha Hill - take out TRASH to reply

Al Bundy wrote:
>
> If your time is worth anything, sewing clothes is too big a waste of
> it.

That depends. If ready-to-wear clothing does not fit properly, then
making your own is far less expensive than hiring a tailor/dressmaker to
do it.

If you are an extremely short or extremely tall person, it can be
expensive to buy proportioned-to-fit clothing.

And if you can make a machine washable and dryable garment even for the
same cost as a dry-clean-only one that will last lots longer, you are
saving money there as well.

At any rate, many frugal endeavors would not be frugal if you had to
include the cost of your time, not just this.

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 8:38 am
From: Samantha Hill - take out TRASH to reply

Anthony Matonak wrote:
>
> I think welders are making a comeback. The big savings is in
> fixing and altering cars. :)

The real automotive money to be made in cars are those unprintable
adjectives who take two ruined cars, weld the good parts together, and
sell it as a used car. :)

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Tips on frugal living in the Philadelphia region
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/26215b0a650faf56?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 4:54 am
From: Joe

http://home.comcast.net/~plutarch/frugal-philly.html

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 6:56 am
From: Joe

On Feb 15, 11:38 pm, Ron Peterson <r...@shell.core.com> wrote:

> Per month, of course. So, if you can rent something for $2,000 per
> month, it isn't a good idea to buy it for $400,000.
>
> --
> Ron

This cannot be true in the Northeast. If so no home would be a good
investment.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 8:41 am
From: Dennis

On Sat, 16 Feb 2008 06:56:16 -0800 (PST), Joe <joe5345@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Feb 15, 11:38 pm, Ron Peterson <r...@shell.core.com> wrote:
>
>> Per month, of course. So, if you can rent something for $2,000 per
>> month, it isn't a good idea to buy it for $400,000.
>>
>> --
>> Ron
>
>This cannot be true in the Northeast. If so no home would be a good
>investment.

It probably varies in different locations, but my realtor here in NW
Oregon said basically the same thing. When we sold our apartment
building a couple years ago, he suggested 100 times the total monthly
rent as a reasonable selling price.

Dennis (evil)
--
My output is down, my income is up, I take a short position on the long bond and
my revenue stream has its own cash flow. -George Carlin

==============================================================================
TOPIC: One-stop clinics 'are the future'
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/608f783c7011ab6b?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 6:57 am
From: sindee

"It's very important that whatever developments modern medicine
brings, we don't lose that underlying personal relationship"

Peter Weaving GP

check more here for more details
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7248132.stm

_________________________
http://www.savesecret.com

==============================================================================
TOPIC: www.cheapforwholesale.com cheap nike shoes nike sneakers wholesale
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/ea28720a846ac23b?hl=en
==============================================================================

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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 8:02 am
From: KarlMarx_MiddleClass_Ipod_HipHop

On Feb 15, 3:48 pm, clams_casino <PeterGrif...@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:
> A way to make a million dollars - buy up ten million stamps at 41 cents
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>
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100 million stamps needed @ 1 cent profit on arbitrage

==============================================================================
TOPIC: The Crack Smoker and the Peter Puffer.
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/8b0204bcfb5bfe25?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 8:30 am
From: haber14@lycos.com

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVeFVtcdSYY

Interesting 1.5 minute video.

Dennis

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 8:53 am
From: Drop_the_chalupa_RodSpeed

I bet oil drops a lot in price for the US consumer.

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 9:32 am
From: Paul M. Eldridge

On Sat, 16 Feb 2008 08:53:17 -0800 (PST), Drop_the_chalupa_RodSpeed
<kwokx2@hotmail.com> wrote:

>I bet oil drops a lot in price for the US consumer.

Along these same lines, I'm betting disco music, big hair, frilly
shirts, bell bottoms and platform shoes will make a come back.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ox0IzWR4LX8

Damn, now where did I leave the keys to my 'doba?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=vIL3fbGbU2o

Cheers,
Paul

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 9:46 am
From: Just A User

Drop_the_chalupa_RodSpeed wrote:
> I bet oil drops a lot in price for the US consumer.

Not likely as the global demand for oil keeps increasing.

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 10:09 am
From: Drop_the_chalupa_RodSpeed

On Feb 16, 12:46 pm, Just A User <k...@up-yours-spammer.net> wrote:
> Drop_the_chalupa_RodSpeed wrote:
> > I bet oil drops a lot in price for the US consumer.
>
> Not likely as the global demand for oil keeps increasing.

Yep, so if that is the case, maybe investing in energy conservation
should pay off? I think we are on the brink of cheaper long-run
energy costs via alternative energy. I am Pollyannish about it for a
reason. Almost a devil's advocate too. Once fuel prices go to $4 or $5
or $ 6 per gallon here in the US, consumers will either stop consuming
or look for a cheaper energy source. They will not care if they get 1%
returns on their stocks or bonds or houses annually. They will want
relief from paying an inordinate amount of their income to heat their
houses or fuel their cars.

The run-up in gasoline costs in the past 5 years has been met with no
great increases in wages but increases in housing and insurance and
just about anything that is necessary.

Unless something gives and costs drop somewhere, take home pay for US
consumer will not be geared for spending much on anything
anymore.Extend credit only so long. That is why I think oil prices
will need to drop. As other countries develop and devote more of their
discretionary income to oil costs, they catch up to US standards of
living.

Say what you want RodSpeed, but the USA has a standard of living and
low costs that many countries would really want to have. I can not see
average American going for reduced standards of living without
deciding to bail on the oil companies eventually and starting home-
grown energy projects.

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 9:02 am
From: Cheapo Groovo

http://cheapogroovo.vox.com/library/post/the-story-of-stuff.html

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Socially Responsible Businesses
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/5916d05bfbeb9eeb?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 9:47 am
From: bjgol

We are working on a blog: 'Doing Good, While Doing Business' at
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It features socially responsible
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You can suggest a business at:

http://changethemold.com/?page_id=26

Thanks in advance!

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 16 2008 10:11 am
From: Drop_the_chalupa_RodSpeed

Check out the Marginal Revolution website too, you commie!

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Saturday, February 16, 2008

25 new messages in 9 topics - digest

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