Frugal Living: Feb 19, 2008

Tuesday, February 19, 2008

25 new messages in 9 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Oil is at 98!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/c8fc3e4320768e77?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 19 2008 3:03 pm
From: clams_casino

Cheapo Groovo wrote:

>http://cheapogroovo
>
>

Is your newsletter as outdated as your spam?

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/e565eaf98e0e70b6?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 10 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 19 2008 3:31 pm
From: jakdedert

James Sweet wrote:
>> all she needs is doing one preventive maintence job that turns a
>> working whatever into a non functional disaster that costs a fortune
>> to fix.
>>
>> i rather imagine most of us have been thru one of those.
>>
>
>
> Oh it happens to the best of us, it's why contractors are bonded. I once
> went to replace the distributor on a car, somehow managed to drop a socket
> down into the timing belt cover while trying to locate TDC, and then broke
> the timing belt in the process of getting that out. Thankfully it turned out
> to be a non-interference engine so no major damage was done. On top of all
> that, the car happened to belong to my boss, and I was working on it in the
> back parking lot at work. A 20 minute job turned into 3 days of early
> mornings and late evenings since so much had to come apart to fix the stupid
> thing. In the end though no real harm was done and it was a learning
> experience to say the least. Some would give up after that, but being a true
> DIYer I climbed back in the saddle and haven't made that same mistake again.
> For every time I break something and make a job 10x what it should have
> been, I save a fortune on a dozen other projects by doing them myself and I
> can provide advice to others to prevent them from doing what I did.
>
> When I was a kid I watched my dad hit a water pipe with a Sawzall while
> putting in a light fixture, oops! Always take great care to cut a small hole
> first so you can see whats in there.
>
>
This could turn into a whole new thread of major f*ckups that we learned
from....

(One of) mine was when replacing the clutch on the family car--along
with my older brother--when we were 14 and 17 respectively. I put the
first bolt in the pressure plate, 'bumped' the starter in order to pull
the engine around to access the rest...

...and forgot to pull the coil wire. BAM! Engine fired up (briefly)
and trashed the new pressure plate. Luckily no other damage or injury
resulted.

jak

== 2 of 10 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 19 2008 3:50 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

hallerb@aol.com wrote:
> On Feb 19, 4:23?pm, 58plumb...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Feb 18, 8:23 pm, "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"
>>
>> <donna....@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> I still feel badly that I didn't replace the plastic drain valve
>>> with the brass ball valve because I was afraid the plastic was not
>>> removable (that's what Sears salespeople said anyway, instilling
>>> FUD in my mind).
>>
>> Don't bother replacing the WH drain now. Fix the clogged dishwasher
>> instead.
>> Replace that factory drain valve in six months when you flush the WH
>> for your first maintenance interval.
>>
>> As for that clogged dishwasher, you'll likely have to break the
>> bricks bricking it in in order to get to the innards.
>> Good luck. Ask questions. Take advice with a grain of salt.
>>
>> And post back with your results!
>
> donna is a nice new home owner. before you know it she will be like
> most of us long termers, doing what we must, and ignoring drain valves
> etc.
>
> all she needs is doing one preventive maintence job that turns a
> working whatever into a non functional disaster that costs a fortune
> to fix.
>
> i rather imagine most of us have been thru one of those.
>
> kinda like pruning a tree, having a limb fall onto the roof, while
> replacing damaged shingles fall off roof, hit power line, ripping it
> off the side of the house. fortunately the poor fellow didnt get
> shocked, or seriously hurt.
>
> but the colateral costs, pay someone to finish tree trimming and clean
> up, pay electrician to put service back on house, losts food in
> fridge, power was off too long. my friend, spent nearly 2 days in
> hospital, sent home on crutches.missed a week work no sick time.......
>
> this happened to a guy i knew.
>
> a old neighbor decided to replace his bathroom floor. lose floorboard,
> ran nail into water line, flood took down kitchen cieling..
>
> need plumber, new cieling and contracted out bathroom redo.
>
> so he decided cars would be his thing, took air cleaner off to adjust
> carbuerator, reved engine, air cleaner housing dropped into fan went
> thru radiator.
>
> tow truck, new fan, new radiator, misc repairs, had carb replaced.
>
> new DIYers be careful so we dont add your story to the list:)
>
> my memorable event:(
>
> did some plumbing, opened main valve with one connection still open to
> flush lines, main valve failed couldnt shut off, had to call water
> company who had great trouble finding main valve, as street had been
> raised........
>
> could of got arrested so upset i forgot to pay for valve at hardware
> store, i just walked out, no register stop, the store owner who knew
> me thought it funny, as my shoies went squish squish waterlogged as i
> walked out..
>
> just a memorable day for a home repairer.
>
> a buddy of mine in detroit was doing some wiring, turned breaker back
> on, all power in building went out, fact all power from detroit to new
> york. that big power failure from some years ago........... wasnt his
> fault but just imagine:)
>
> now that was funny!!!!!

Never had even a single one of those, and I physically built the entire house.

== 3 of 10 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 19 2008 3:52 pm
From: N8N

On Feb 19, 5:37 pm, "hall...@aol.com" <hall...@aol.com> wrote:

> all she needs is doing one preventive maintence job that turns a
> working whatever into a non functional disaster that costs a fortune
> to fix.
>
> i rather imagine most of us have been thru one of those.

Ain't that the truth.

I still err on the side of too much PM because I seem to be one of
those guys who manage to pull off just about every job I actually *do*
without too much hassle, but God forbid that I let any PM slide on
anything, it will bite me in the a$$... There are a few exceptions to
that rule however.

the funniest was, though, my ex-GF had a '69 Plymouth Valiant that I'd
found for her, because her old Monte Carlo was too much of a rusty
roach to pass PA state safety inspection without a new frame. It was
in immaculate shape, and ran and drove well. she took it to a local
garage to get it inspected and the guy failed her for dry-rotted
suspension bushings. So I called up PST, ordered a front end rebuild
kit, and went to town. I figured that it would be pretty easy, and
after all I was a mechanical engineering student so had access to the
school machine shop, what could possibly go wrong? I drove the
control arms down to another shop to have them bead blasted, painted
everything up real nice, went to put the first side back together and
I realize that the strut rod bushings are WAY too thick. Called up
PST, after being on the phone with tech support for quite some while,
figured out that they had the year breaks in their catalog wrong and I
needed the earlier version. Well their bastard people wouldn't trade
me for the ones I needed, wouldn't sell them separately, etc. etc.
etc. Also found out that one tie rod was swapped end for end so I
needed to order a new inner tie rod end as well (basic rebuild kit
only had outer tie rods, and the inspector had flagged outer tie rod
ends for replacement as well.) Car was on jackstands on the street in
front of her house for about 3 weeks while this was all going on (this
was supposed to be about a 3-day project, I had it all planned out...)
finally her annoying neighbor called the city to schedule tree
trimming, I had to throw the car together one evening wrong bushings
and all just to move it so it didn't get towed. By this time I'd
found a guy with a machine shop in his basement to turn down the strut
rod bushings for me to the thickness actually required, but I didn't
have time to R&R the lower control arm on one side.

Somewhere out there there is still a pea soup green '69 Valiant with a
nice polygraphite front end that has one original rubber lower control
arm bushing and one original rubber strut rod bushing... what a
charlie foxtrot.

You would think that I'd learned my lesson but a couple months later
my '67 Dart blew up its transmission on my way to her house, and I
coasted it into the exact same parking place where the Valiant had
been sitting. I borrowed the Valiant, went to the junkyard, got
another transmission, swapped that in at the side of the road in the
snow, and the car moved about 6 feet and never moved again. I sold it
for $50 just to get it the hell out of my sight.

Lesson learned; I don't do any work on cars outside of a garage or
driveway anymore... no job, no matter how simple appearing, is not
going to take about 10x as long as you think it is and if you're in a
hurry you're going to make mistakes.

nate

(you may all laugh at me now)

== 4 of 10 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 19 2008 4:37 pm
From: "Only Just"

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
message news:eBCuj.6698$xq2.6074@newssvr21.news.prodigy.net...
> On Tue, 19 Feb 2008 05:27:28 -0800 (PST), hallerb@aol.com wrote:
>> the plastic valves are fine if they get just ONE use, to drain the
>> tank at end of use.......
>
> Hi hallerb,
> I understand your point. But, from what I read, they used to be brass and
> the manufacturers switched to the plastic for cost reasons only.
>
> Also, I read a brass ball valve doesn't clog as easily.
>
> Given our experience this past weekend, where the valve first clogged and
> then broke off inside the water heater, it would seem to us that over
> time,
> the brass will be less likely to break than the plastic.
>
> Of course, one reason ours clogged was likely the fact we never flushed it
> so the sediments may have been too much for any valve - and one reason it
> broke is that we were manhandling it trying to get the tipped-over water
> heater back on the stand ... so you might be right.
>
> I think I now understand how to replace the brass valve. In fact, a more
> important issue came up in that our dishwasher suddenly stopped working. I
> think it's due to the sediment being sent through the pipes (our shower
> heads were totally clogged all of a sudden, with sandy grainy stuff).
>
> I opened a separate thread on alt.home.repair to ask how to clean out a
> dishwasher without being able to remove it (it's bricked in it seems).
>
> I feel like "this old house" is attacking me so it's nice to have this
> wonderful newsgroup as my friends to help in times of need!
>
> Donna
Any good installation of an appliance like a washing machine, dishwasher etc
should have a filter screen / rubber washer fitted to the hose fitting to
the tap that controls the water to the appliance, with a bit of luck it
should be as easy as to removing the hose from the tap and cleaning that
filter / screen. There could be an additional screen fitted to the water
inlet valve on the appliance as well that might need cleaning so depending
on the difficulty on accessing the fittings, start with the easy one first
and test from there before attempting the more difficult one. If you have
cleaned out all the filters and it still doesn't work you could have had the
unfortunate problem of luck that it also failed at close to the same time
(It happens occasionally unfortunately) so good luck with it all.
Justy.

== 5 of 10 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 19 2008 5:18 pm
From: "hallerb@aol.com"

On Feb 19, 7:37�pm, "Only Just" <ifixit2@hotmail(dot)com> wrote:
> "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" <donna....@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
> messagenews:eBCuj.6698$xq2.6074@newssvr21.news.prodigy.net...
>
>
>
> > On Tue, 19 Feb 2008 05:27:28 -0800 (PST), hall...@aol.com wrote:
> >> the plastic valves are fine if they get just ONE use, to drain the
> >> tank at end of use.......
>
> > Hi hallerb,
> > I understand your point. But, from what I read, they used to be brass and
> > the manufacturers switched to the plastic for cost reasons only.
>
> > Also, I read a brass ball valve doesn't clog as easily.
>
> > Given our experience this past weekend, where the valve first clogged and
> > then broke off inside the water heater, it would seem to us that over
> > time,
> > the brass will be less likely to break than the plastic.
>
> > Of course, one reason ours clogged was likely the fact we never flushed it
> > so the sediments may have been too much for any valve - and one reason it
> > broke is that we were manhandling it trying to get the tipped-over water
> > heater back on the stand ... so you might be right.
>
> > I think I now understand how to replace the brass valve. In fact, a more
> > important issue came up in that our dishwasher suddenly stopped working. I
> > think it's due to the sediment being sent through the pipes (our shower
> > heads were totally clogged all of a sudden, with sandy grainy stuff).
>
> > I opened a separate thread on alt.home.repair to ask how to clean out a
> > dishwasher without being able to remove it (it's bricked in it seems).
>
> > I feel like "this old house" is attacking me so it's nice to have this
> > wonderful newsgroup as my friends to help in times of need!
>
> > Donna
>
> Any good installation of an appliance like a washing machine, dishwasher etc
> should have a filter screen / rubber washer fitted to the hose fitting to
> the tap that controls the water to the appliance, with a bit of luck it
> should be as easy as to removing the hose from the tap and cleaning that
> filter / screen. There could be an additional screen fitted to the water
> inlet valve on the appliance as well that might need cleaning so depending
> on the difficulty on accessing the fittings, start with the easy one first
> and test from there before attempting the more difficult one. If you have
> cleaned out all the filters and it still doesn't work you could have had the
> unfortunate problem of luck that it also failed at close to the same time
> (It happens occasionally unfortunately) so good luck with it all.
> Justy.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I just installed a couple dishwashers, one for us and one for a
friend, and one for a friend, no screen washers,,,,,,,,,

== 6 of 10 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 19 2008 5:19 pm
From: "hallerb@aol.com"

On Feb 19, 6:50�pm, "Rod Speed" <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote:
> hall...@aol.com wrote:
> > On Feb 19, 4:23?pm, 58plumb...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Feb 18, 8:23 pm, "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"
>
> >> <donna....@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>> I still feel badly that I didn't replace the plastic drain valve
> >>> with the brass ball valve because I was afraid the plastic was not
> >>> removable (that's what Sears salespeople said anyway, instilling
> >>> FUD in my mind).
>
> >> Don't bother replacing the WH drain now. Fix the clogged dishwasher
> >> instead.
> >> Replace that factory drain valve in six months when you flush the WH
> >> for your first maintenance interval.
>
> >> As for that clogged dishwasher, you'll likely have to break the
> >> bricks bricking it in in order to get to the innards.
> >> Good luck. Ask questions. Take advice with a grain of salt.
>
> >> And post back with your results!
>
> > donna is a nice new home owner. before you know it she will be like
> > most of us long termers, doing what we must, and ignoring drain valves
> > etc.
>
> > all she needs is doing one preventive maintence job that turns a
> > working whatever into a non functional disaster that costs a fortune
> > to fix.
>
> > i rather imagine most of us have been thru one of those.
>
> > kinda like pruning a tree, having a limb fall onto the roof, while
> > replacing �damaged shingles fall off roof, hit power line, ripping it
> > off the side of the house. fortunately the poor fellow didnt get
> > shocked, or seriously hurt.
>
> > but the colateral costs, pay someone to finish tree trimming and clean
> > up, pay electrician to put service back on house, losts food in
> > fridge, power was off too long. my friend, spent nearly 2 days in
> > hospital, sent home on crutches.missed a week work no sick time.......
>
> > this happened to a guy i knew.
>
> > a old neighbor decided to replace his bathroom floor. lose floorboard,
> > ran nail into water line, flood took down kitchen cieling..
>
> > need plumber, new cieling and contracted out bathroom redo.
>
> > so he decided cars would be his thing, took air cleaner off to adjust
> > carbuerator, reved engine, air cleaner housing dropped into fan went
> > thru radiator.
>
> > tow truck, new fan, new radiator, misc repairs, had carb replaced.
>
> > new DIYers be careful so we dont add your story to the list:)
>
> > my memorable event:(
>
> > did some plumbing, opened main valve with one connection still open to
> > flush lines, main valve failed couldnt shut off, had to call water
> > company who had great trouble finding main valve, as street had been
> > raised........
>
> > could of got arrested so upset i forgot to pay for valve at hardware
> > store, i just walked out, no register stop, the store owner who knew
> > me thought it funny, as my shoies went squish squish waterlogged as i
> > walked out..
>
> > just a memorable day for a home repairer.
>
> > a buddy of mine in detroit was doing some wiring, turned breaker back
> > on, all power in building went out, fact all power from detroit to new
> > york. that big power failure from some years ago........... wasnt his
> > fault but just imagine:)
>
> > now that was funny!!!!!
>
> Never had even a single one of those, and I physically built the entire house.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

new work is safer, you know whats there.

old work is a pain cause you cant know where stuff is, like hidden
water phone and electric lines

== 7 of 10 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 19 2008 5:40 pm
From: "James Sweet"

>I just installed a couple dishwashers, one for us and one for a
>friend, and one for a friend, no screen washers,,,,,,,,,

They usually have one in the water inlet solenoid itself. Thankfully the
intake plumbing on a dishwasher is really simple. Copper tubing to a
compression fitting at the solenoid valve, and a hose out of that through a
nozzle into the washer compartment. The recirculation plumbing that does the
washing is separate and very hard to clog.

== 8 of 10 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 19 2008 6:41 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

hallerb@aol.com wrote:
> On Feb 19, 6:50?pm, "Rod Speed" <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> hall...@aol.com wrote:
>>> On Feb 19, 4:23?pm, 58plumb...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> On Feb 18, 8:23 pm, "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"
>>
>>>> <donna....@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>> I still feel badly that I didn't replace the plastic drain valve
>>>>> with the brass ball valve because I was afraid the plastic was not
>>>>> removable (that's what Sears salespeople said anyway, instilling
>>>>> FUD in my mind).
>>
>>>> Don't bother replacing the WH drain now. Fix the clogged dishwasher
>>>> instead.
>>>> Replace that factory drain valve in six months when you flush the
>>>> WH for your first maintenance interval.
>>
>>>> As for that clogged dishwasher, you'll likely have to break the
>>>> bricks bricking it in in order to get to the innards.
>>>> Good luck. Ask questions. Take advice with a grain of salt.
>>
>>>> And post back with your results!
>>
>>> donna is a nice new home owner. before you know it she will be like
>>> most of us long termers, doing what we must, and ignoring drain
>>> valves etc.
>>
>>> all she needs is doing one preventive maintence job that turns a
>>> working whatever into a non functional disaster that costs a fortune
>>> to fix.
>>
>>> i rather imagine most of us have been thru one of those.
>>
>>> kinda like pruning a tree, having a limb fall onto the roof, while
>>> replacing ?damaged shingles fall off roof, hit power line, ripping
>>> it off the side of the house. fortunately the poor fellow didnt get
>>> shocked, or seriously hurt.
>>
>>> but the colateral costs, pay someone to finish tree trimming and
>>> clean up, pay electrician to put service back on house, losts food
>>> in fridge, power was off too long. my friend, spent nearly 2 days in
>>> hospital, sent home on crutches.missed a week work no sick
>>> time.......
>>
>>> this happened to a guy i knew.
>>
>>> a old neighbor decided to replace his bathroom floor. lose
>>> floorboard, ran nail into water line, flood took down kitchen
>>> cieling..
>>
>>> need plumber, new cieling and contracted out bathroom redo.
>>
>>> so he decided cars would be his thing, took air cleaner off to
>>> adjust carbuerator, reved engine, air cleaner housing dropped into
>>> fan went thru radiator.
>>
>>> tow truck, new fan, new radiator, misc repairs, had carb replaced.
>>
>>> new DIYers be careful so we dont add your story to the list:)
>>
>>> my memorable event:(
>>
>>> did some plumbing, opened main valve with one connection still open
>>> to flush lines, main valve failed couldnt shut off, had to call
>>> water company who had great trouble finding main valve, as street
>>> had been raised........
>>
>>> could of got arrested so upset i forgot to pay for valve at hardware
>>> store, i just walked out, no register stop, the store owner who knew
>>> me thought it funny, as my shoies went squish squish waterlogged as
>>> i walked out..
>>
>>> just a memorable day for a home repairer.
>>
>>> a buddy of mine in detroit was doing some wiring, turned breaker
>>> back on, all power in building went out, fact all power from
>>> detroit to new york. that big power failure from some years
>>> ago........... wasnt his fault but just imagine:)
>>
>>> now that was funny!!!!!
>>
>> Never had even a single one of those, and I physically built the
>> entire house.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> new work is safer, you know whats there.
>
> old work is a pain cause you cant know where stuff is, like hidden
> water phone and electric lines

I've never had anything like that with previous houses
either, and its easy enough to check for that stuff.

== 9 of 10 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 19 2008 7:04 pm
From: Bob

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator wrote:
> The only good thing was you had already admonished us to have tepid water
> in the tank and that's what saved us from getting scalded as Bill stuck his
> finger in the hole (it was just the right size) to stop the leak and I
> bucketed the water outside.

Another trick to totally avoid the plastic drain valve is to have a 3/4"
pipe fitting ready that can attach to a hose, then unscrew and remove
the gas valve and thermostat assembly and slide the pipe and hose in its
place.

== 10 of 10 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 19 2008 11:03 pm
From: "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"

On Tue, 19 Feb 2008 17:30:23 GMT, James Sweet wrote:
> The dishwasher is bricked in? Sheesh, how did they even manage that?
> Fortunately most things can be accessed by removing the kick plate.

Hi James,
I'm going to try to remove that kick plate later this week.
I unclogged the shower yesterday; it was filled with sand grains:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2279233720/

I unclogged the kitchen sink with a scissors today.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2279233724/

Notice the sand grains on my cutting board.
They were all over the place!

This new sand does not look like the "scale" that was in the galvanized
pipes!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2273250265/

Where did all this sand come from?

Donna

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Predictions on oil costs for next decade
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/4d8ed6676617cb7f?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 19 2008 4:03 pm
From: WaterBoy

.
it depends
partly on how many countries our King invades

10 years out is quite a while

how about "anything can happen?"

waterboy

==============================================================================
TOPIC: How many therms (natural gas) do you use per day (per month)?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/99d004d38152f87d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 19 2008 4:41 pm
From: Angelo Campanella

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator wrote:
>>I used 120 therms in the past 30 days (about 4 therms per day).
>>HOW MANY THERMS DID YOU USE LAST MONTH?

ASSUMING that one therm equals 100 cubic feet (CCF) of (Ohio) gas, in
2001 just before we installed a high efficiency (sucks air and and blows
exahust via ground level tubes) we used (Columbia Gas here reads meters
only every other month, so I divided true reading deltas by two)

between 21 (summer) and 234 CCF (Winter).

The summer 8-20 CCF is hotwater plus gas dryer.
House is 1,500 square feet, with half-basement.
We are empty-nesters.

In summary:

2000: 20 - 188 CCF
2001: 21 - 234 CCF

In October, 2001, we insalled the Hi-eff ("90%") furnace, and then the
consumptions became:

2002: 8 to 136 CCF.
2003: --
2004: 9 - 150 CCF
2005: 12 - 153 CCF
2006: 11 - 157 CCF
2007: 9 - 164 CCF

rough summary:

Annually before, 1100 CCF/yr
Annually after, 850 CCF/yr

The stated effficiency of the old furnace was 60% (40% went up the
chimney). (120,000 BTU burner)
The new furnace is 90% (10% goes out the exhaust, and water condensate
trickles into my sump pump well). (90,000 BTU burner.

> I should note that California alots only 2 therms a day for baseline costs
> of about $1.22 per therm (plus 5 cents per therm PPP Surcharge); so
> apparently I'm consuming double the natural gas energy California allows
> (regardless of home size or number of people) for base rates.

We (me & wife) use just over two per day.

> The over-baseline charges are $1.37 per therm plus that same 5 cents per
> therm additional charge for poor people (i.e., the California Gas PPP
> Surcharge).

Our rates are "all over the place".

> Does ANYONE actually use just 2 therms per day for their gas furnace and
> hot-water heater for two people living in a small 1,500 sqft house?

Sometimes. As our two boys were growing up, it was a bit crowded at
times. But we prevailed: They left the nest, and now here we are!

Angelo campanella

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 19 2008 4:48 pm
From: Angelo Campanella

Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator wrote:
> (California) baseline costs
> of about $1.22 per therm (plus 5 cents per therm PPP Surcharge.
> The over-baseline charges are $1.37 per therm plus that same 5 cents per
> therm additional charge for poor people (i.e., the California Gas PPP
> Surcharge).

Our recent (Ohio) gas bill was $248 for 187 CCF = $1.33 per CCF.

Angelo campanella

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Question on potentially sediment-clogged dishwasher (how to diagnose &
repair)?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/ab38615660f0cdb0?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 19 2008 7:25 pm
From: "Edwin Pawlowski"

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
message
>
> Do you know how to unclog the hot/cold water to the bathroom tub and
> dishwasher?
>
> Donna

Tub is no different than the sink. Depends on what brand of faucet though.
You may have to remove a front bezel. Go to the web page of the
manufacturer and look for instructions to replace the seals or cartridge.

Dishwasher may be more difficult. If you get lucky, you may be able to just
disconnect the water feed and clean out right inside the solenoid valve. If
not, you may have to remove the DW and remove the valve to clean it. Going
from memory, the feed on mine is right behind the bottom front panel. Check
the spray arms also while you are at it.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: ? for landlords
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/648f8a4eebe4a886?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 19 2008 7:40 pm
From: barbie gee

On Tue, 19 Feb 2008, Bill wrote:

>>
>> so how do i go about doing these checks?
>
> Multiple checks, search google.com for the words...
> renter check
>
> Renter history check - look for local rental association - ask large
> apartment complexes where they get their checks run. Local landlord
> associations may do this and also have free forms for member's use like
> rental agreements, lease agreements, etc.
>
> Driver's license check - Go to DMV.
>
> Credit check - search google.com for the words...
> tenant credit check
>
> Criminal check - State police.

for all that time and screwing around, if you value your time, you'll call
a real professional Tenant Screening Agency. they can get info
nationwide, which is useful if the prospective tenants have only moved to
town recently.

work w/ someone that's got some certifications and has been in business
for awhile.
see:
National Association of Professional Background Screeners
National Assoication of Screening Agencies
others

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 19 2008 7:58 pm
From: George Grapman

barbie gee wrote:
>
>
> On Tue, 19 Feb 2008, Bill wrote:
>
>>>
>>> so how do i go about doing these checks?
>>
>> Multiple checks, search google.com for the words...
>> renter check
>>
>> Renter history check - look for local rental association - ask large
>> apartment complexes where they get their checks run. Local landlord
>> associations may do this and also have free forms for member's use like
>> rental agreements, lease agreements, etc.
>>
>> Driver's license check - Go to DMV.
>>
>> Credit check - search google.com for the words...
>> tenant credit check
>>
>> Criminal check - State police.
>
> for all that time and screwing around, if you value your time, you'll
> call a real professional Tenant Screening Agency. they can get info
> nationwide, which is useful if the prospective tenants have only moved
> to town recently.

Speaking of which it sometimes is a better idea to let a qualified
rental agent do everything from screening tenants, showing units,
collecting rents doing repairs and and handling evictions.
I lived in a 12 unit building that was run by a management firm. The
owner decided to save money by doing everything himself. After numerous
night and weekend calls about hot water,plumbing problems and trips to
the building to collect late rent he decided to get a new property
management firm.

>
> work w/ someone that's got some certifications and has been in business
> for awhile.
> see:
> National Association of Professional Background Screeners
> National Assoication of Screening Agencies
> others

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 19 2008 8:52 pm
From: aemeijers

George Grapman wrote:
> barbie gee wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Tue, 19 Feb 2008, Bill wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>> so how do i go about doing these checks?
>>>
>>> Multiple checks, search google.com for the words...
>>> renter check
>>>
>>> Renter history check - look for local rental association - ask large
>>> apartment complexes where they get their checks run. Local landlord
>>> associations may do this and also have free forms for member's use like
>>> rental agreements, lease agreements, etc.
>>>
>>> Driver's license check - Go to DMV.
>>>
>>> Credit check - search google.com for the words...
>>> tenant credit check
>>>
>>> Criminal check - State police.
>>
>> for all that time and screwing around, if you value your time, you'll
>> call a real professional Tenant Screening Agency. they can get info
>> nationwide, which is useful if the prospective tenants have only moved
>> to town recently.
>
> Speaking of which it sometimes is a better idea to let a qualified
> rental agent do everything from screening tenants, showing units,
> collecting rents doing repairs and and handling evictions.
> I lived in a 12 unit building that was run by a management firm. The
> owner decided to save money by doing everything himself. After numerous
> night and weekend calls about hot water,plumbing problems and trips to
> the building to collect late rent he decided to get a new property
> management firm.
>
Understood from a PITA basis, and may even make sense on a young
building with decent tenants. But if you have an older building, or only
a rental house or two, a management company can quickly make the margin
between the mortgage payment and the gross receipts vanish without a
trace. Not everyone should be a landlord- it does take commitment, and
some basic level of knowledge about the trades, as well as all the usual
pitfalls of running a small businesss.

aem sends...

==============================================================================
TOPIC: HD-TV converter box rip-off ....
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/4a9061c13abe5727?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 19 2008 8:02 pm
From: A

You know these set top boxes coming out soon so you can get HDTV to come
through your old regular TV? (because analog transmission is ordered by
the govt to stop next February?).

So, I tried to use their website to "apply for" those coupons worth $40.

And, after filling out the form, it bombed me off with an error (after
telling me I had to allow them to set a cookie). I tried several times AND
with two different web browsers.

Next trick: I decided to call their 800 number on the telephone and make a
voice "application" for the coupons. So what happened? Its all robot voice
menus and you never talk to a human being. It asks a lot of question
including what is your home phone number and then that phone number is
looked up by their computer because it then, by robot voice, asks "is
__X__ your address" and punch "1" if correct, then it asks my name and
spell it out, and asks if correct press "1" and then, guess, what ... it
comes back (the robot voice) and says "you are not elligible for a coupon"
and if I want to appeal that I have to send a letter and they give a
confirmation letter.

I have not seen any articles that explain who is or is not elligible for a
coupon.

This, and all the money they spend to check up on "eligibility" with
database accesses sure seems like a big waste, a big betrayal, and a big
doublecross to me.

And, if I fill out the form with pen/pensil and mail it in, what secret
criteria could they come up with to deny or otherwise say I'm not
elligible for the coupon now?

Are they collecting all this data for a database? For what?

== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 19 2008 8:50 pm
From: Tim May

In article <Pine.NEB.4.64.0802192251240.9510@panix3.panix.com>,
<arthures@panix.com> wrote:

> You know these set top boxes coming out soon so you can get HDTV to come
> through your old regular TV? (because analog transmission is ordered by
> the govt to stop next February?).

>
> And, if I fill out the form with pen/pensil and mail it in, what secret
> criteria could they come up with to deny or otherwise say I'm not
> elligible for the coupon now?
>

Check any box that is marked "Hispanic" or "African-American."

These giveaways are reserved for the Usual Suspects, the negroes, the
Mexicans, the immigrants, welfare recipients.

Taxpayers subsidize these boxes so that the untermenschen will have
their Oprah, their Mexican wrestling shows, their Air America liberal
t.v.

The irony is that people who stay at home and watch t.v. all day
usually have plasma t.v.s and LCDs that are better than what working
whites can afford.

--Tim May

== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 19 2008 8:53 pm
From: George Grapman

Tim May wrote:
> In article <Pine.NEB.4.64.0802192251240.9510@panix3.panix.com>,
> <arthures@panix.com> wrote:
>
>> You know these set top boxes coming out soon so you can get HDTV to come
>> through your old regular TV? (because analog transmission is ordered by
>> the govt to stop next February?).
>
>> And, if I fill out the form with pen/pensil and mail it in, what secret
>> criteria could they come up with to deny or otherwise say I'm not
>> elligible for the coupon now?
>>
>
> Check any box that is marked "Hispanic" or "African-American."
>
> These giveaways are reserved for the Usual Suspects, the negroes, the
> Mexicans, the immigrants, welfare recipients.
>
> Taxpayers subsidize these boxes so that the untermenschen will have
> their Oprah, their Mexican wrestling shows, their Air America liberal
> t.v.
>
> The irony is that people who stay at home and watch t.v. all day
> usually have plasma t.v.s and LCDs that are better than what working
> whites can afford.
>
>
> --Tim May

As Tim May infests yet another group I once again kill file him. Tim
blames all his unhappiness on minorities.

== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 19 2008 9:28 pm
From: nospam@noway.net (Ralph)

I bought this Microsoft keyboard with a rebate. Carefully read the
instructions and filled out the rebate form. Sent it in with a copy of
the recept and top of box with the barcode (proof of purchase) like it
said. Got a letter back from Microsoft saying I hadn't properly
satisified all the conditions of the rebate without telling me what I
did wrong or sending anything back. Total bullshit. They ripped me off.

A <arthures@panix.com> wrote:

> You know these set top boxes coming out soon so you can get HDTV to come
> through your old regular TV? (because analog transmission is ordered by
> the govt to stop next February?).
>
> So, I tried to use their website to "apply for" those coupons worth $40.
>
> And, after filling out the form, it bombed me off with an error (after
> telling me I had to allow them to set a cookie). I tried several times AND
> with two different web browsers.
>
> Next trick: I decided to call their 800 number on the telephone and make a
> voice "application" for the coupons. So what happened? Its all robot voice
> menus and you never talk to a human being. It asks a lot of question
> including what is your home phone number and then that phone number is
> looked up by their computer because it then, by robot voice, asks "is
> __X__ your address" and punch "1" if correct, then it asks my name and
> spell it out, and asks if correct press "1" and then, guess, what ... it
> comes back (the robot voice) and says "you are not elligible for a coupon"
> and if I want to appeal that I have to send a letter and they give a
> confirmation letter.
>
> I have not seen any articles that explain who is or is not elligible for a
> coupon.
>
> This, and all the money they spend to check up on "eligibility" with
> database accesses sure seems like a big waste, a big betrayal, and a big
> doublecross to me.
>
> And, if I fill out the form with pen/pensil and mail it in, what secret
> criteria could they come up with to deny or otherwise say I'm not
> elligible for the coupon now?
>
> Are they collecting all this data for a database? For what?

== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 19 2008 10:27 pm
From: beebs

On Feb 19, 8:53 pm, George Grapman <sfgeo...@paccbell.net> wrote:

> As Tim May infests yet another group I once again kill
> file him. Tim blames all his unhappiness on minorities.

Why the announcement? Just killfile him. Do you
expect to get a medal?

beebs
anarchist

==============================================================================
TOPIC: It's over Johnny!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/1168e84eff4841b1?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 19 2008 8:19 pm
From: "RodSpeed,_the_EWA_fund_is_doing_great"

This will not be televised:

http://www.revolution.com/

==============================================================================
TOPIC: cheap juicy dg calvin klein dsquared underwear men women abercrombie &
fitch
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/680b3b1d309b2e3d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
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25 new messages in 16 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 19 2008 9:30 am
From: "James Sweet"

>
> I opened a separate thread on alt.home.repair to ask how to clean out a
> dishwasher without being able to remove it (it's bricked in it seems).
>
>

The dishwasher is bricked in? Sheesh, how did they even manage that?

Fortunately most things can be accessed by removing the kick plate. The
water inlet is a solenoid valve normally in the left-front corner of the
machine. It will attach with a compression fitting which you can disconnect
and then you should be able to remove the valve and clean it out. I suspect
your clog is right there.

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 19 2008 1:23 pm
From: 58plumbers@gmail.com

On Feb 18, 8:23 pm, "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"
<donna....@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> I still feel badly that I didn't replace the plastic drain valve with the
> brass ball valve because I was afraid the plastic was not removable (that's
> what Sears salespeople said anyway, instilling FUD in my mind).

Don't bother replacing the WH drain now. Fix the clogged dishwasher
instead.
Replace that factory drain valve in six months when you flush the WH
for your first maintenance interval.

As for that clogged dishwasher, you'll likely have to break the bricks
bricking it in in order to get to the innards.
Good luck. Ask questions. Take advice with a grain of salt.

And post back with your results!

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 19 2008 2:37 pm
From: "hallerb@aol.com"

On Feb 19, 4:23�pm, 58plumb...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Feb 18, 8:23 pm, "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"
>
> <donna....@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > I still feel badly that I didn't replace the plastic drain valve with the
> > brass ball valve because I was afraid the plastic was not removable (that's
> > what Sears salespeople said anyway, instilling FUD in my mind).
>
> Don't bother replacing the WH drain now. Fix the clogged dishwasher
> instead.
> Replace that factory drain valve in six months when you flush the WH
> for your first maintenance interval.
>
> As for that clogged dishwasher, you'll likely have to break the bricks
> bricking it in in order to get to the innards.
> Good luck. Ask questions. Take advice with a grain of salt.
>
> And post back with your results!

donna is a nice new home owner. before you know it she will be like
most of us long termers, doing what we must, and ignoring drain valves
etc.

all she needs is doing one preventive maintence job that turns a
working whatever into a non functional disaster that costs a fortune
to fix.

i rather imagine most of us have been thru one of those.

kinda like pruning a tree, having a limb fall onto the roof, while
replacing damaged shingles fall off roof, hit power line, ripping it
off the side of the house. fortunately the poor fellow didnt get
shocked, or seriously hurt.

but the colateral costs, pay someone to finish tree trimming and clean
up, pay electrician to put service back on house, losts food in
fridge, power was off too long. my friend, spent nearly 2 days in
hospital, sent home on crutches.missed a week work no sick time.......

this happened to a guy i knew.

a old neighbor decided to replace his bathroom floor. lose floorboard,
ran nail into water line, flood took down kitchen cieling..

need plumber, new cieling and contracted out bathroom redo.

so he decided cars would be his thing, took air cleaner off to adjust
carbuerator, reved engine, air cleaner housing dropped into fan went
thru radiator.

tow truck, new fan, new radiator, misc repairs, had carb replaced.

new DIYers be careful so we dont add your story to the list:)

my memorable event:(

did some plumbing, opened main valve with one connection still open to
flush lines, main valve failed couldnt shut off, had to call water
company who had great trouble finding main valve, as street had been
raised........

could of got arrested so upset i forgot to pay for valve at hardware
store, i just walked out, no register stop, the store owner who knew
me thought it funny, as my shoies went squish squish waterlogged as i
walked out..

just a memorable day for a home repairer.

a buddy of mine in detroit was doing some wiring, turned breaker back
on, all power in building went out, fact all power from detroit to new
york. that big power failure from some years ago........... wasnt his
fault but just imagine:)

now that was funny!!!!!

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 19 2008 2:53 pm
From: "James Sweet"

>all she needs is doing one preventive maintence job that turns a
>working whatever into a non functional disaster that costs a fortune
>to fix.
>
>i rather imagine most of us have been thru one of those.
>

Oh it happens to the best of us, it's why contractors are bonded. I once
went to replace the distributor on a car, somehow managed to drop a socket
down into the timing belt cover while trying to locate TDC, and then broke
the timing belt in the process of getting that out. Thankfully it turned out
to be a non-interference engine so no major damage was done. On top of all
that, the car happened to belong to my boss, and I was working on it in the
back parking lot at work. A 20 minute job turned into 3 days of early
mornings and late evenings since so much had to come apart to fix the stupid
thing. In the end though no real harm was done and it was a learning
experience to say the least. Some would give up after that, but being a true
DIYer I climbed back in the saddle and haven't made that same mistake again.
For every time I break something and make a job 10x what it should have
been, I save a fortune on a dozen other projects by doing them myself and I
can provide advice to others to prevent them from doing what I did.

When I was a kid I watched my dad hit a water pipe with a Sawzall while
putting in a light fixture, oops! Always take great care to cut a small hole
first so you can see whats in there.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: How To Find Love In An Instant
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/a6f18b5a347bce27?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 19 2008 9:44 am
From: noone@nowhere.com

>"You can't hurry love. No, you'll just have to wait..."
>
>The old song by the Supremes sure is catchy. But something else
>catching on is just the opposite of what the song preaches: Speed
>dating.

Want to find love in a instant?

Put hand to dick or pussy. Rub. Done!

== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 19 2008 10:15 am
From: "Bill"

>
> so how do i go about doing these checks?

Multiple checks, search google.com for the words...
renter check

Renter history check - look for local rental association - ask large
apartment complexes where they get their checks run. Local landlord
associations may do this and also have free forms for member's use like
rental agreements, lease agreements, etc.

Driver's license check - Go to DMV.

Credit check - search google.com for the words...
tenant credit check

Criminal check - State police.

== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 19 2008 10:23 am
From: George Grapman

Bill wrote:
>> so how do i go about doing these checks?
>
> Multiple checks, search google.com for the words...
> renter check
>
> Renter history check - look for local rental association - ask large
> apartment complexes where they get their checks run. Local landlord
> associations may do this and also have free forms for member's use like
> rental agreements, lease agreements, etc.
>
> Driver's license check - Go to DMV.

>
> Credit check - search google.com for the words...
> tenant credit check
>
> Criminal check - State police.
>
>
You can not just go to the police and request a criminal check .

== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 19 2008 1:08 pm
From: pc

George Grapman wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>>> so how do i go about doing these checks?
>>
>> Multiple checks, search google.com for the words...
>> renter check
>>
>> Renter history check - look for local rental association - ask large
>> apartment complexes where they get their checks run. Local landlord
>> associations may do this and also have free forms for member's use
>> like rental agreements, lease agreements, etc.
>>
>> Driver's license check - Go to DMV.
>
>>
>> Credit check - search google.com for the words...
>> tenant credit check
>>
>> Criminal check - State police.
>>
>>
> You can not just go to the police and request a criminal check .

In Palm Beach County, FL [and maybe all the other counties in FL] you
can can go the the Sheriff's website and look up arrests.

== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 19 2008 1:31 pm
From: George Grapman

pc wrote:
> George Grapman wrote:
>> Bill wrote:
>>>> so how do i go about doing these checks?
>>>
>>> Multiple checks, search google.com for the words...
>>> renter check
>>>
>>> Renter history check - look for local rental association - ask large
>>> apartment complexes where they get their checks run. Local landlord
>>> associations may do this and also have free forms for member's use
>>> like rental agreements, lease agreements, etc.
>>>
>>> Driver's license check - Go to DMV.
>>
>>>
>>> Credit check - search google.com for the words...
>>> tenant credit check
>>>
>>> Criminal check - State police.
>>>
>>>
>> You can not just go to the police and request a criminal check .
>
> In Palm Beach County, FL [and maybe all the other counties in FL] you
> can can go the the Sheriff's website and look up arrests.

It varies from state to state. In addition I suspect in your example
you would only find arrests in that jurisdiction. Also, I think it is
wrong to release information when an arrest did not lead to a conviction.

== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 19 2008 2:57 pm
From: "AllEmailDeletedImmediately"

"George Grapman" <sfgeorge@paccbell.net> wrote in message
news:n8Fuj.11741$Ch6.677@newssvr11.news.prodigy.net...
> Bill wrote:
>>> so how do i go about doing these checks?
>>
>> Multiple checks, search google.com for the words...
>> renter check
>>
>> Renter history check - look for local rental association - ask large
>> apartment complexes where they get their checks run. Local landlord
>> associations may do this and also have free forms for member's use like
>> rental agreements, lease agreements, etc.
>>
>> Driver's license check - Go to DMV.
>
>>
>> Credit check - search google.com for the words...
>> tenant credit check
>>
>> Criminal check - State police.
>>
>>
> You can not just go to the police and request a criminal check .

i didn't think so either. but it do have peeps.
>

==============================================================================
TOPIC: wholesale nokia cap jeans t-shirts coat wallet sneakers for cheap
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/3fbb46f38c955bb2?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 19 2008 10:28 am
From: cheapforwholesale@126.com

(WWW.cheapforwholesale.COM)
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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Sewing Machines: Making A Comeback?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/04891ec8941a20e8?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 19 2008 10:28 am
From: Cindy Hamilton

On Feb 18, 11:24 pm, Anthony Matonak
<anthony...@nothing.like.socal.rr.com> wrote:
> hchick...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 11:31:33 -0800, Anthony Matonak wrote:
> >> Cindy Hamilton wrote:
> >>> Only my time between 8 and 5 Monday through Friday has a dollar value.
> ...
> >> Your time is worth whatever someone will pay you for it. Just because
> >> you aren't working Saturday for money doesn't mean you can't.
>
> > Think of all that time wasted on vacations, going out to eat,
> > sleeping, and other non-productive activities. :-)
>
> These activities aren't necessarily non-productive but they do cost
> money in lost wages. :) It's a decision people make to use time for
> themselves or trade it for money. Just because you aren't getting
> paid for that time doesn't make it worthless.
>
> In fact, a lot of people value this time even more than the time they
> spend working because they use it to spend with their families, loved
> ones or doing something they are passionate about. They're willing to
> give up the money in exchange for having this time for their own use.
>
> So, thinking your time outside of a paying job is worthless is really
> selling yourself short.

I never said it was worthless, I just said it didn't have a dollar
value.

Forty hours a week is plenty for me; only a practitioner of the
dismal science would consider leisure time in terms of lost wages.

Even I have to admit, though, that I often trade my leisure time for
money (money unspent) when I put sweat equity into the house.

Cindy Hamilton

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Oil is at 98.10
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/845a37565705f473?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 19 2008 10:55 am
From: max

In article <MPG.2224bb0a8a2734f989998@news.wowway.com>,
Cheapo Groovo <ccsj@nospam.com> wrote:

> Still have doubting Thomases out there?
>
> http://cheapogroovo.vox.com/library/post/oil-outlook.html

doubting What, precisely?

.max

==============================================================================
TOPIC: cheap gucci prada sneakers???wholesale ugg boots in china
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/28f758cdece4a98e?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 19 2008 11:05 am
From: sneakerforsale10@yahoo.com.cn

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TOPIC: Nike Sneakers,Jordan Sneakers AirForce 1S, Nike Air Max, Nike Shox,
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/f3b1bc5518cac8fb?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 19 2008 11:05 am
From: sneakerforsale10@yahoo.com.cn

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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 19 2008 11:06 am
From: sneakerforsale10@yahoo.com.cn

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TOPIC: wholesale laptop Manufacturers, Exporters, laptop wholesalers
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/22cca55f2d80fa6c?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 19 2008 11:06 am
From: sneakerforsale10@yahoo.com.cn

www.sneakerforsale.com Sanli trade company

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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Times: It's official: the Landfill Prize Top 10
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/8be8ef27cec8ca71?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 19 2008 11:51 am
From: Papadillos

From Times Online
February 15, 2008

It's official: the Landfill Prize Top 10
From oh-so-clever toothbrushes to an infant care timer. What you said you
could really live without

Photo: http://tinyurl.com/2jtvll
Caption: Joy Ride exercise machine: The makers call it a unique way to
exercise and they are right. What other exercise machines look like a toilet
on skis?

John Naish

Are you, by any chance, brushing your teeth with the most resource-wasting,
overcomplex piece of gadgetry that's been witnessed by internet voters in
the past 12 months? The £179 Sonicare electric toothbrush, made by Philips,
has just been voted the winner of the first annual Landfill prize, the award
for Britain's cleverest rubbish – unnecessarily convoluted consumer
inventions that help to increase the teetering junkpile of refuse we Britons
produce every year.

Nominations from the thousands of visitors to the Landfill Prize website
(including a great many Times Online readers) have now been judged by a
panel of four, in which I joined Mark Watson the comedian, Carl Honor�, the
author of In Praise of Slow, and Anna Shepard, The Times's ecology
columnist. Below, the Philips' brush, along with its fellow top-ten nominees
in the Landfill Hall of Shame are luridly exposed in all their guilty,
planet-draining detail.

There's a serious side to this lampoonery. I launched the prize to coincide
with my new book, Enough: breaking free from the world of more, and both aim
to highlight the fact that, thanks to modern high-tech, we should now have
all the gear we need to enjoy comfortable, contented lives. Our culture is
easily capable of producing myriad consumer items that are durable, reliable
and useful enough to give years of great service.

It's not like that, though. We're beset with messages that tell us that the
stuff we've got now isn't good enough – that we need more stuff, that we
need stuff that's somehow improved, with ever more extras and options. It's
all got to be new, too, rather than, ugh, so last year. We've got fixated on
producing and consuming ever more wastefully complex stuff that has no
future. It's there to take our money and time on its brief trip from factory
to landfill. Strange genius, indeed, as you'll see from these?

1. The £179 toothbrush

The Philips Sonicare Flexcare brush comes with it's own ultraviolet-light
sanitising equipment, as well as a whole lot of other bells and whistles
such as three cleaning modes (including "massage") and different brushing
routines. But a survey by Which? in November 2007 found that it performed
only as effectively as a well-wielded £4 electric brush. Ordinary manual
brushes can prove just as effective as high-end electrics if used properly,
the survey adds. http://www.argos.co.uk/

2. The ijoyride

All home-exercise equipment tends to be used little and discarded often,
according to research surveys. But the ijoyride caught our nominators'
attention for all the wrong reasons. To quote from a Saturday magazine
advert, it's "a new exercise machine that gives you all the benefits and
none of the costs of owing a horse". It looks more like a bucking loo,
though. See the website: www.ijoyride.co.uk

3. Ambi-Pur plug in "three-fragrance" air freshener

All plug-in fresheners are effectively devices that suck electricity while
spreading synthetic chemicals around your home. The Ambi Pur 3volution is
the pinnacle of this plug-in mania, a unit that contains three vials of
perfume which it emits in rotation every 45 minutes, so your nose never gets
"tired" of the smell. The refill bottles make for good instant landfill,
too. http://www.choiceful.com/

4. Gillette's six-bladed, battery-powered, wet razor

Welcome to the Gillette Fusion Power Razor. We'll let the company's blurb
explain this one? "Battery-powered shaving system emits gentle micro-pulses
for an incredible shaving experience. Now with Low Battery Indicator Light
and Automatic Shut-Off. The front of the razor has 5 Blade Shaving Surface
Technology with five PowerGlide blades spaced closer together to help reduce
pressure. The back of the razor has 1 Precision Trimmer Blade... built into
the cartridge." How on Earth did mankind manage to evolve without all that?
http://www.mygillette.co.uk/

5. The Slingbox

It provides the very unuseful function of allowing you, if you have
broadband, to watch your own TV from anywhere in the world that you have
access to the internet. So now you can spend a fortune going to South Africa
or wherever on holiday and spend your time there making sure that you don't
miss an episode of Emmerdale. http://www.slingmedia.com/

6. Hammacher Schlemmer infant-care timer

A fine example of the guilt-inducing stuff that is sold for new mothers.
It's basically a plastic digital clock with lots of buttons and "an LCD that
displays the elapsed time since your infant's last feeding, diaper change,
nap, etc..." So you can tell when baby's hungry or damp. Doesn't Mother
Nature do that anyway? http://www.hammacher.com/

7. Braun Tassimo coffee maker

The machine got nominated for the wasteful "T" discs or pods (made of
plastic and foil) of which at least one and sometimes two must be used for
every cup of coffee. There appears to be no way to reuse these nor any way
to recycle them, given their mixture of materials, so after contributing
just one cup of coffee to the world, these things end up in the landfill.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/

8. The pocket sundial

Various models available, all equally impractical. See them at:
http://www.marine-super-store.com/

9. PYRAMAT Wireless Sound Rocker Gaming Chair

PC World markets a special "gaming" chair aimed at children of all ages, an
S-shaped rocking chair with built-in headphones, in which kids and kidults
can sit to play their computer games. "What are we coming to?" said its
nominator. "Children should be outside playing not sitting on their arses
playing games all day." http://www.pcworld.co.uk/

10. The E.ON PowerDown

You plug your computer and peripherals into it, and when you turn your PC
off, it turns the peripherals off too. Cute idea, but as its nominator says,
"My scanner uses 2 watts on standby, and the printer uses 3. So that's
saving a maximum of 5 watts for 14 hours a day – or 70 watts per day.
However, if you cut the printer's power, it does a complete cleaning cycle,
wasting ink when it starts. But more to the point, you will never recoup
more energy than is used making all that plastic and metal, then shipping it
over from China." http://www.complocated.com/

For all the rest of this year's Landfill nominations, and an in-depth
explanation of the awards, visit The Landfill Prize . Meanwhile, I'll get
busy making a model of the Philips brush atop a pile of grubby landfill, as
a special trophy that I'll attempt to award to the makers in person. I'm not
completely sure, though, that they will be keen to receive it. We'll see.

© John Naish 2008. Enough: Breaking Free From the World of More (Hodder &
Stoughton, £16.99), is published this week. It is available from Times
BooksFirst for £15.29, p&p free: 0870 1608080 or visit
timesonline.co.uk/booksfirst

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/entrepreneur/article3376374.e
ce

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Frugal Find
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/c8d6b463b9b1ad9a?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 19 2008 1:10 pm
From: clams_casino

Just discovered my local grocer sells their deli ends / extras in about
1-lb packages for 1.99 / lb in their packaged take-out section. Last
week I was able to get a package with ham, roast beef & genoa salami..
Today I found one with turkey, ham & american cheese.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: cold water detergent
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/28e84033bdbeafba?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 19 2008 1:13 pm
From: clams_casino

Melissa wrote:

>"clams_casino" <PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote in message
>news:%Keuj.3739$y05.143@newsfe22.lga...
>
>
>>Shawn Hirn wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>In article <fp9k91$a09$1@news.datemas.de>, Marsha <mas@xeb.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Anyone have a recommendation?
>>>>
>>>>Marsha/Ohio
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Tide works for me.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>I'm surprised Tide dissolves in cold water. Back when I was in the
>>textile business, a standard test for wash fastness utilized Tide as the
>>soap. Making a Tide solution (even with hot water) always resulted in a
>>sediment of undissolved particles.
>>
>>
>
>Regular Liquid Tide works great in cold water. I wash almost everything
>except towels in cold. I don't see the need for a "special" cold water
>detergent. It's just marketing hype.
>
>Melissa
>
>
>
>
Ah - OK, it's their liquid formula - not the powder (whole different
formulation). Never could get the power to dissolve completely - even
in warm / hot water.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Q: Boiling Water-nuke or kettle?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/d1b6d83a8392d12d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 19 2008 1:28 pm
From: watcher@moog.netaxs.com

In article <47bae4c2$0$15191$607ed4bc@cv.net>, Evelyn C. Leeper wrote:
> PaPaPeng wrote:
>>
>> I drink a popular Oriental beverage that has instant coffee, sugar and
>> a whitener-thickener in a pack. I heat up a mug of hot water in the
>> microwave or I heat up two cups in a kettle, two cups because I need
>> to submerge the element. Somehow I get the feeling that the microwave
>> uses more energy/watts. Any idea if this is so?
>
> Speaking of which, does anyone know if they still sell those immersion
> heaters (the kind that are just a coil, a cord, and a plug) that you
> could put in a cup of water to boil it? They were popular in the 1960s
> and 1970s, but I can't recall seeing them for a while.
>

I don't think I've been in any dollar store in the last 5 years that _didn't_
have them :-)

--
"I think, therefore I thwim."

R. Descartes

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 19 2008 2:08 pm
From: Al Bundy

On Feb 19, 9:50 am, "Chloe" <justsa...@spam.com> wrote:
> "Evelyn C. Leeper" <elee...@optonline.net> wrote in messagenews:47bae4c2$0$15191$607ed4bc@cv.net...
>
>
>
> > Speaking of which, does anyone know if they still sell those immersion
> > heaters (the kind that are just a coil, a cord, and a plug) that you could
> > put in a cup of water to boil it? They were popular in the 1960s and
> > 1970s, but I can't recall seeing them for a while.
>
> Sure. See
>
> http://www.goinginstyle.com/gis/Heater-Immersion-for-Water-P2778.aspx
>
> although you can probably buy one locally for less. They're excellent for
> making coffee while travelling. I quit carrying my own heater, mug, and
> instant coffee when they started putting the little brewpots in hotel rooms.
> But after seeing some undercover news stories lately about the way the
> housekeeping staff cleans those things (i.e., wiping inside of pot out with
> a rag they'd just used on the toilet, etc.) I think I'll be digging my
> heater out and using it again.

Aw, don't feel so squeamish. Heat kills many germs. Most if the
illnesses are curable too.
PS. There's no way those hotel rooms will ever be clean.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Housing SCAM WARNING!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/6badb6c55f04e5d7?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 19 2008 1:35 pm
From: successn08

Have you ever been scammed?
This real estate agent beat the scammers and the real estate/mortgage
crisis and MORE THAN TRIPLED HIS INCOME IN 30 DAYS!! You can too.

Testimonial
My first 3 weeks I made over 30 grand. This Thursday the 23rd, I've
been with PTW for 4 weeks and my income will have surpassed $40+.
And now, the roll ups are starting to come in as well. So what can I
say, it's better than expected, but this was not expected. So far,
I've made 4 times more than I ever dared dream about a month ago.

David

Watch the movie...go to http://drsuccess08.com

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 19 2008 1:55 pm
From: Al Bundy

On Feb 19, 4:35 pm, successn08 <rae...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Have you ever been scammed?
> This real estate agent beat the scammers and the real estate/mortgage
> crisis and MORE THAN TRIPLED HIS INCOME IN 30 DAYS!! You can too.
>
> Testimonial
> My first 3 weeks I made over 30 grand. This Thursday the 23rd, I've
> been with PTW for 4 weeks and my income will have surpassed $40+.
> And now, the roll ups are starting to come in as well. So what can I
> say, it's better than expected, but this was not expected. So far,
> I've made 4 times more than I ever dared dream about a month ago.
>
> David
>
> Watch the movie...go tohttp://drSeusssuccess08.com

And your goal is what? To make us strangers rich?

==============================================================================
TOPIC: web hosting................india..................free
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/f2fabbef2e024e73?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 19 2008 3:01 pm
From: clams_casino

akhileshek@gmail.com wrote:

>web hosting................india..................free
>free web space, templates,subdomain hosting
>akhileshek.iifree.net
>
>
>

If the web hosting is in India, why is your site based in the US?

IP range : 67.228.0.0 - 67.228.255.255
Network name : SOFTLAYER-4-5
Infos : SoftLayer Technologies Inc.
Infos : 1950 N Stemmons Freeway
Infos : Dallas
Infos : TX
Infos : 75207
Country : United States (US)
Abuse E-mail : abuse@softlayer.com

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Tuesday, February 19, 2008

25 new messages in 9 topics - digest

25 new messages in 16 topics - digest