Frugal Living: Feb 19, 2009

Thursday, February 19, 2009

misc.consumers.frugal-living - 25 new messages in 14 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: OT - Survivalism Retail Style
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/da641b3711ca2726?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 19 2009 2:05 pm
From: Strabo

Ed Huntress wrote:
> "Strabo" <strabo@flashlight.net> wrote in message
> news:FCUll.10686$lk5.9712@newsfe13.iad...
>> Ed Huntress wrote:
>>> "Winston_Smith" <not_real@bogus.net> wrote in message
>>> news:brffp4tp2cnmgvp0d5sfvk713gdte1re5j@4ax.com...
>>>> "Ed Huntress" <huntres23@optonline.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> <EskWIRED@spamblock.panix.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:gk2ntk$ih9$2@reader1.panix.com...
>>>>>> In misc.survivalism Curly Surmudgeon <CurlySurmudgeon@live.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I wonder if it's possible to simultaneously suffer both deflation and
>>>>>>> inflation?
>>>>>> Winston says Yes.
>>>>> Winston be wrong. You can have inflation and a contracting economy
>>>>> (stagflation), or deflation and a contracting economy (recession), but
>>>>> you
>>>>> can't have aggregate inflation and aggregate deflation at the same
>>>>> time.
>>>> You can have inflation in one area and deflation in another. Esk
>>>> can't understand that.
>>>>
>>>> I'll bet your stocks and the value of your house is deflating.
>>>> I'll bet your grocery bill is inflating.
>>> That's why it's best to confine the terms "inflation" and "deflation" to
>>> aggregate, economy-wide effects. It just confuses the issues to mix those
>>> aggregate rises and declines that are related to money-supply or
>>> currency-value issues, or to GDP growth or shrinkage, with the price
>>> increases and declines that occur in different sectors. The latter are
>>> supply/demand issues, even if the demand is purely speculative.
>>>
>> But there is no "aggregate, economy-wide effects".
>
> Yes there are, and you can measure them with a variety of summary measures,
> ranging from GDP growth rates to currency exchange rates.
>

Those are quantitative measurements designed as predictive tools
but with no relevance to the individual.

One lives locally. That's his real world.

>
>> Different parts
>> act in different ways during the same time frame.
>
> Of course. But inflation and deflation are measures of how they're connected
> in a mutually reinforcing way. Employment rates and consumption rates, for
> example. Some sectors are always countercyclical. There are people who make
> their livings picking out which sectors those will be.
>
> But on a macro scale, it matters whether you have aggregate inflation or
> deflation. Once one takes hold in a big way it influences practically every
> sector. And once one or the other is dominant, most sectors start feeding on
> the spiral and forcing it all in the same direction. That's why aggregate
> effects are the key issue: they often dominate the whole economy. Rarely
> does one sector swing an economy around all by itself. People keep trying to
> pin the current situation on a single sector -- housing speculation, or
> financial derivatives -- but it's not that simple. One sector may act as a
> trigger but it's the aggregate consequences that matter.
>
>> Politicians want a
>> simple label to simplify spinning their BS. Same way with ideologies.
>> There is no 'left' or 'right' political spectrum. Either you have
>> rights and power or you do not. I hope the day of the politician is
>> over.
>
> I was with you up until the last sentence. d8-) For the latter, see
> Aristotle, _The Politics_.
>

Humans are thinking, interactive players whose self-interest is
always presumed paramount. Politicians on the other hand claim to
represent a collective bias, a known lie. Hence, the games begin.

Lawyers and politicians are unnecessary and dangerous.

>
>> For example, real estate will have to be priced lower to accommodate
>> fewer buyers and a weakened dollar. There are excepted areas but that
>> will be the tendency. Expect 1960s or earlier house prices within a few
>> years. But don't hold on to dollars expecting to later make a killing
>> because the purchasing power of the dollar will fall.
>>
>> In other words gentlemen, we're going back to ca 1957, and you won't
>> be able to take technocracy with you.
>
> The bottom in real estate is replacement value plus land value. Land value
> is very sensitive to the state of the economy, but even more sensitive to
> local supply and demand. Replacement value can get out of wack when there is
> lots of building going on, as there was until recently.
>
> But 1960s prices are far below even replacement value alone. I was selling
> Cape Cods in Lansing, Michigan for $18,000 in 1970, and "colonials" for
> $26,000. That's far below the materials costs plus minimum-wage labor today.
>

Replacement costs are subject to change. Underwriters use local
and regional cost analysis. As time goes on, only local labor
and material availability will matter.

I expect both my land and house valuation to fall as well as the
replacement cost for the house.

My per hour charges to clients will have to come down and I expect
I will pay less for labor.

Some items may become difficult to get and increase in cost.

The specifics of this trend should be clear by next fall.

>
> I'm not a betting man but I doubt if house prices will fall in most regions
> of the country by more than another 15%, or possibly 20% tops. That would be
> the "real" bottom, IMO. But the nationwide averages could drop more than
> that, because there are many overbuilt areas where there was lots of
> speculative building but there just aren't going to be any buyers at all,
> unless there is enough growth in local employment to make people able to
> live there again.
>
> BTW, house prices in my town are moving up slowly, but steadily, and only
> took a slight two-month dip in early 2007. This is an area that's fully
> built and what you're seeing is straight supply/demand effects in a mature
> market. There are plenty of such places around the country, but they're not
> the ones you hear about.
>

This is a minimum five year adjustment. How much longer depends on
government intervention. The fedgov could cause it to drag out for
many more years.

> --
> Ed Huntress
>
>

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 19 2009 2:59 pm
From: "Ed Huntress"

"Strabo" <strabo@flashlight.net> wrote in message
news:sGknl.13370$i42.12034@newsfe17.iad...
> Ed Huntress wrote:
>> "Strabo" <strabo@flashlight.net> wrote in message
>> news:FCUll.10686$lk5.9712@newsfe13.iad...
>>> Ed Huntress wrote:
>>>> "Winston_Smith" <not_real@bogus.net> wrote in message
>>>> news:brffp4tp2cnmgvp0d5sfvk713gdte1re5j@4ax.com...
>>>>> "Ed Huntress" <huntres23@optonline.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> <EskWIRED@spamblock.panix.com> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:gk2ntk$ih9$2@reader1.panix.com...
>>>>>>> In misc.survivalism Curly Surmudgeon <CurlySurmudgeon@live.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I wonder if it's possible to simultaneously suffer both deflation
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> inflation?
>>>>>>> Winston says Yes.
>>>>>> Winston be wrong. You can have inflation and a contracting economy
>>>>>> (stagflation), or deflation and a contracting economy (recession),
>>>>>> but you
>>>>>> can't have aggregate inflation and aggregate deflation at the same
>>>>>> time.
>>>>> You can have inflation in one area and deflation in another. Esk
>>>>> can't understand that.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'll bet your stocks and the value of your house is deflating.
>>>>> I'll bet your grocery bill is inflating.
>>>> That's why it's best to confine the terms "inflation" and "deflation"
>>>> to aggregate, economy-wide effects. It just confuses the issues to mix
>>>> those aggregate rises and declines that are related to money-supply or
>>>> currency-value issues, or to GDP growth or shrinkage, with the price
>>>> increases and declines that occur in different sectors. The latter are
>>>> supply/demand issues, even if the demand is purely speculative.
>>>>
>>> But there is no "aggregate, economy-wide effects".
>>
>> Yes there are, and you can measure them with a variety of summary
>> measures, ranging from GDP growth rates to currency exchange rates.
>>
>
> Those are quantitative measurements designed as predictive tools
> but with no relevance to the individual.
>
> One lives locally. That's his real world.

The interest rates you pay, and the prices of commodities, clothing,
hardware...the prices of goods that are freely distributed nationally or
internationally...much of what your life costs is based on national economic
trends, strabo. Unless you grow your own vegetables and run your car on
ethanol you produce yourself, and spin your own yarn and weave your own
cloth, you can't escape it.

>
> >
>>> Different parts
>>> act in different ways during the same time frame.
>>
>> Of course. But inflation and deflation are measures of how they're
>> connected in a mutually reinforcing way. Employment rates and consumption
>> rates, for example. Some sectors are always countercyclical. There are
>> people who make their livings picking out which sectors those will be.
>>
>> But on a macro scale, it matters whether you have aggregate inflation or
>> deflation. Once one takes hold in a big way it influences practically
>> every sector. And once one or the other is dominant, most sectors start
>> feeding on the spiral and forcing it all in the same direction. That's
>> why aggregate effects are the key issue: they often dominate the whole
>> economy. Rarely does one sector swing an economy around all by itself.
>> People keep trying to pin the current situation on a single sector --
>> housing speculation, or financial derivatives -- but it's not that
>> simple. One sector may act as a trigger but it's the aggregate
>> consequences that matter.
>>
>>> Politicians want a
>>> simple label to simplify spinning their BS. Same way with ideologies.
>>> There is no 'left' or 'right' political spectrum. Either you have
>>> rights and power or you do not. I hope the day of the politician is
>>> over.
>>
>> I was with you up until the last sentence. d8-) For the latter, see
>> Aristotle, _The Politics_.
>>
>
> Humans are thinking, interactive players whose self-interest is
> always presumed paramount. Politicians on the other hand claim to
> represent a collective bias, a known lie. Hence, the games begin.
>
> Lawyers and politicians are unnecessary and dangerous.

Both are essential unless you live in a monarchy or a dictatorship. Again,
Aristotle, _The Politics_.

>
>
> >
>>> For example, real estate will have to be priced lower to accommodate
>>> fewer buyers and a weakened dollar. There are excepted areas but that
>>> will be the tendency. Expect 1960s or earlier house prices within a few
>>> years. But don't hold on to dollars expecting to later make a killing
>>> because the purchasing power of the dollar will fall.
>>>
>>> In other words gentlemen, we're going back to ca 1957, and you won't
>>> be able to take technocracy with you.
>>
>> The bottom in real estate is replacement value plus land value. Land
>> value is very sensitive to the state of the economy, but even more
>> sensitive to local supply and demand. Replacement value can get out of
>> wack when there is lots of building going on, as there was until
>> recently.
>>
>> But 1960s prices are far below even replacement value alone. I was
>> selling Cape Cods in Lansing, Michigan for $18,000 in 1970, and
>> "colonials" for $26,000. That's far below the materials costs plus
>> minimum-wage labor today.
>>
>
> Replacement costs are subject to change. Underwriters use local
> and regional cost analysis. As time goes on, only local labor
> and material availability will matter.
>
> I expect both my land and house valuation to fall as well as the
> replacement cost for the house.
>
> My per hour charges to clients will have to come down and I expect
> I will pay less for labor.
>
> Some items may become difficult to get and increase in cost.
>
> The specifics of this trend should be clear by next fall.

Unlikely. By then, prices will be moving back up.

>
>
> >
>> I'm not a betting man but I doubt if house prices will fall in most
>> regions of the country by more than another 15%, or possibly 20% tops.
>> That would be the "real" bottom, IMO. But the nationwide averages could
>> drop more than that, because there are many overbuilt areas where there
>> was lots of speculative building but there just aren't going to be any
>> buyers at all, unless there is enough growth in local employment to make
>> people able to live there again.
>>
>> BTW, house prices in my town are moving up slowly, but steadily, and only
>> took a slight two-month dip in early 2007. This is an area that's fully
>> built and what you're seeing is straight supply/demand effects in a
>> mature market. There are plenty of such places around the country, but
>> they're not the ones you hear about.
>>
>
> This is a minimum five year adjustment. How much longer depends on
> government intervention. The fedgov could cause it to drag out for
> many more years.

You're pretty much alone in your assessment.

--
Ed Huntress

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 19 2009 11:19 pm
From: Strabo

Ed Huntress wrote:
> "Strabo" <strabo@flashlight.net> wrote in message
> news:sGknl.13370$i42.12034@newsfe17.iad...
<snipped>
>>>
>> Those are quantitative measurements designed as predictive tools
>> but with no relevance to the individual.
>>
>> One lives locally. That's his real world.
>
> The interest rates you pay, and the prices of commodities, clothing,
> hardware...the prices of goods that are freely distributed nationally or
> internationally...much of what your life costs is based on national economic
> trends, strabo. Unless you grow your own vegetables and run your car on
> ethanol you produce yourself, and spin your own yarn and weave your own
> cloth, you can't escape it.
>
>>>> Different parts
>>>> act in different ways during the same time frame.
>>> Of course. But inflation and deflation are measures of how they're
>>> connected in a mutually reinforcing way. Employment rates and consumption
>>> rates, for example. Some sectors are always countercyclical. There are
>>> people who make their livings picking out which sectors those will be.
>>>
>>> But on a macro scale, it matters whether you have aggregate inflation or
>>> deflation. Once one takes hold in a big way it influences practically
>>> every sector. And once one or the other is dominant, most sectors start
>>> feeding on the spiral and forcing it all in the same direction. That's
>>> why aggregate effects are the key issue: they often dominate the whole
>>> economy. Rarely does one sector swing an economy around all by itself.
>>> People keep trying to pin the current situation on a single sector --
>>> housing speculation, or financial derivatives -- but it's not that
>>> simple. One sector may act as a trigger but it's the aggregate
>>> consequences that matter.
>>>
>>>> Politicians want a
>>>> simple label to simplify spinning their BS. Same way with ideologies.
>>>> There is no 'left' or 'right' political spectrum. Either you have
>>>> rights and power or you do not. I hope the day of the politician is
>>>> over.
>>> I was with you up until the last sentence. d8-) For the latter, see
>>> Aristotle, _The Politics_.
>>>
>> Humans are thinking, interactive players whose self-interest is
>> always presumed paramount. Politicians on the other hand claim to
>> represent a collective bias, a known lie. Hence, the games begin.
>>
>> Lawyers and politicians are unnecessary and dangerous.
>
> Both are essential unless you live in a monarchy or a dictatorship. Again,
> Aristotle, _The Politics_.
>

I need only go back a couple hundred years to find viable European
and American communities abiding by common law.

>
>>
>>>> For example, real estate will have to be priced lower to accommodate
>>>> fewer buyers and a weakened dollar. There are excepted areas but that
>>>> will be the tendency. Expect 1960s or earlier house prices within a few
>>>> years. But don't hold on to dollars expecting to later make a killing
>>>> because the purchasing power of the dollar will fall.
>>>>
>>>> In other words gentlemen, we're going back to ca 1957, and you won't
>>>> be able to take technocracy with you.
>>> The bottom in real estate is replacement value plus land value. Land
>>> value is very sensitive to the state of the economy, but even more
>>> sensitive to local supply and demand. Replacement value can get out of
>>> wack when there is lots of building going on, as there was until
>>> recently.
>>>
>>> But 1960s prices are far below even replacement value alone. I was
>>> selling Cape Cods in Lansing, Michigan for $18,000 in 1970, and
>>> "colonials" for $26,000. That's far below the materials costs plus
>>> minimum-wage labor today.
>>>
>> Replacement costs are subject to change. Underwriters use local
>> and regional cost analysis. As time goes on, only local labor
>> and material availability will matter.
>>
>> I expect both my land and house valuation to fall as well as the
>> replacement cost for the house.
>>
>> My per hour charges to clients will have to come down and I expect
>> I will pay less for labor.
>>
>> Some items may become difficult to get and increase in cost.
>>
>> The specifics of this trend should be clear by next fall.
>
> Unlikely. By then, prices will be moving back up.
>
>>
>>> I'm not a betting man but I doubt if house prices will fall in most
>>> regions of the country by more than another 15%, or possibly 20% tops.
>>> That would be the "real" bottom, IMO. But the nationwide averages could
>>> drop more than that, because there are many overbuilt areas where there
>>> was lots of speculative building but there just aren't going to be any
>>> buyers at all, unless there is enough growth in local employment to make
>>> people able to live there again.
>>>
>>> BTW, house prices in my town are moving up slowly, but steadily, and only
>>> took a slight two-month dip in early 2007. This is an area that's fully
>>> built and what you're seeing is straight supply/demand effects in a
>>> mature market. There are plenty of such places around the country, but
>>> they're not the ones you hear about.
>>>
>> This is a minimum five year adjustment. How much longer depends on
>> government intervention. The fedgov could cause it to drag out for
>> many more years.
>
> You're pretty much alone in your assessment.
>

Yep.

Well, it'll be interesting to see where we are this time next year.

>
> --
> Ed Huntress
>
>

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Rip Off Report: "Free offer" for Hydroxatone Skin Cream, and the Back-2-
Life Machine
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/631ddad5d678c74d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 19 2009 2:15 pm
From: Dave

There appears to be a trend right now for healthy lifestyle products
to be advertised on TV or radio, with a great number of claims being
made about what they can do -- and some very shady business practices
to go along with those generally bogus claims. Some of these products
are very expensive.

My wife recently tried a "free sample offer" for a product called
Hydroxatone (a skin cream) and an invoice arrived in the box for
nearly $160.00. She was charged $12.95 to ship a product that cost $3
or $4 to ship, at the most, with instructions to return the remaining
lotion within 30 days or her card would be charged the full amount.
How does that sound for a "free" trial offer?

In my case, I got suckered as well, by a company that sells a $200+
device on TV, called the "Back 2 Life Machine." I responded to an
offer that, once again, was too good to be true. The device itself has
to be returned within 30 days to get a refund that does not include
shipping and handling each way (and the unit is large). My guess is
that at least half of their customer base returns it and they make
enormous profits on the other 50% who miss the cut off date. While it
is an interesting concept, I was not able to find any credible
scientific evidence supporting its claims. You lie down with this
device, put your legs up on the saddle, and let it pull you gently for
12 minutes or so every day. Personally, I knew that I had only a short
time with it before my window to send it back closed, and so I used it
three or four times a day.

I really, really wanted that Back-2-Life Machine to work.
Unfortunately, I achieved no results at all -- not one difference in
my back pain. Upon calling the firm to get an RMA number (even though
I would lose about $50), they offered me all kinds of incentives to
keep it. Even a huge reduction in the price.

Let me recommend to marketers that if your product has some value,
price it fairly from day one. Don't make one consumer pay a higher
price, while others buy it for substantially less because they called
and complained. That's just adding an E to the back end of your SHAM
product . . . SHAME on you.

Dave

Full text article above extracted from http://shamvswham.blogspot.com/

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 19 2009 3:25 pm
From: albundy2@mailinator.com

On Feb 19, 5:15 pm, Dave <djense...@cox.net> wrote:

>
> I really, really wanted that Back-2-Life Machine to work.
> Unfortunately, I achieved no results at all -- not one difference in
> my back pain. Upon calling the firm to get an RMA number (even though
> I would lose about $50), they offered me all kinds of incentives to
> keep it. Even a huge reduction in the price.
>

> Dave
>
You missed the small print there Dave. It said you had to have a life
to begin with.

I just enjoy looking at these things through the years. Grapefruit 45
was good until the cease and desist order. If you are sleeping, you
are not eating so you are losing weight.

Tony Little was fun to watch for his hype mode and the models he
worked with.

Covert Bailey went from his NPR fame as doctor to selling exercise
machines. When one commercial came along with a nun riding one of his
contraptions and extolling it, not swearing by it, I knew it was a
scam. Then I heard about people having back problems from using it and
the ads went away.

My motto is that if it costs a lot, it probably doesn't work. Some
people are good at trying these things and sending them back like you
do. I think it's too much trouble. Pick it up at a garage sale for $5
and throw it out when you've tested it.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Print more $$$$$?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/97bce6f1e889a9ef?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 19 2009 2:32 pm
From: Devo

so, where's the shortage.?
Print away! More! more and more!
and don't forget the "In God We trust" because we only have a pray now.
--
It's amazing what you can do. If...
you put your mind to it.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 19 2009 4:42 pm
From: "John A. Weeks III"

In article
<georgewkspam-E55DAD.14320319022009@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net>,
Devo <georgewkspam@humboldt1.com> wrote:

> so, where's the shortage.?
> Print away! More! more and more!
> and don't forget the "In God We trust" because we only have a pray now.

If you are somehow implying that there is a problem with US
currency, then you are a kook. To prove that, how about you
get all that worthless fiat currency that you have and send
it to me. I'll protect you from that worthless paper.

-john-

--
======================================================================
John A. Weeks III 612-720-2854 john@johnweeks.com
Newave Communications http://www.johnweeks.com
======================================================================

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Anybody here use Pingo?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/a96237018c4d52aa?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 19 2009 2:52 pm
From: "Dave"

(snip)

Don't know how much this Pingo thing costs, but there are a couple of
options. The magicjack thing is said to work fine, as reviewed by major
consumer organizations, or so I've heard. Haven't tried it. But it's like
$20 a year, or something ridiculous like that. Worth a try IF your computer
has a broadband (cable modem or DSL) connection to the Internet.

Or, you could try VOIP like Vonage or similar. We use Voipyourlife, it
works pretty good. But again, this depends on a broadband (cable modem or
DSL) connection the Internet. -Dave

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 19 2009 3:20 pm
From: imascot

OhioGuy <none@none.net> wrote in news:gnkbss$1dcp$1@news.ett.com.ua:

> This
> area code previously worked fine before when we tried it using Pingo,
> and now they are telling us that it isn't working because it isn't
> supposed to. I think I'm going to have to get some sort of backup
> calling card she can use until this is straightened out. It's bizarre
> to be put into a situation where I can call all of my friends and
> relatives, but she can no longer call hers.
>
> Has anyone else suddenly found Pingo not to work for Intrastate calls
> that had worked previously?
>

I haven't used Pingo, but there are several long distance companies that charge rates in that ballpark,
and include interstate coverage. The comparison site I used to find my current LD company is here:

http://www.saveonphone.com/

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 19 2009 11:00 pm
From: Zee

On Feb 20, 3:27 am, OhioGuy <n...@none.net> wrote:
> I listen to Clark Howard's radio show occasionally, and a few months
> ago I heard him talk about a company called Pingo, that evidently offers
> a good deal on long distance telephone service.
>
> I signed up to test it for a month, and once I was satisfied, we
> dumped our old calling card and started to use this for all of our long
> distance. (1.8 cents a minute through a local access #, 2.8 cents a
> minute using their toll free access number) We are here in Ohio, and
> 90%+ of the people I call are in Ohio.
>
> Everything worked fine over the last couple of months, until this
> past week. Suddenly, calls to the 440 area code won't complete. They
> technically go through - the phone at the numbers we call rings - but
> neither we or the party we are calling can hear anything at all. In
> fact, on this end we don't even hear the ringing happening on the line.
> We have called people, and they just assume it is a prank call, with
> no one there.
>
> I contacted Pingo, and this was their reply:
>
> >Thank you for contacting Pingo. Unfortunately "Pingo is not intended
> >for intrastate dialing in the U.S". For example if you are in Florida
> >you can not complete calls, using Pingo, to call Florida.
>
> This is a bunch of bull, because everyone else I've been calling is
> here in Ohio, just as we are. Just in the past couple of days I've
> successfully placed calls to the 419, 614 and 216 area codes - all in
> Ohio. (we are in the 513 area code)
>
> This is a really big issue, because my wife is due to deliver our
> third child any day now, and she can't call her parents and other
> immediate relatives. (most of whom live in the 440 area code) This
> area code previously worked fine before when we tried it using Pingo,
> and now they are telling us that it isn't working because it isn't
> supposed to. I think I'm going to have to get some sort of backup
> calling card she can use until this is straightened out. It's bizarre
> to be put into a situation where I can call all of my friends and
> relatives, but she can no longer call hers.
>
> Has anyone else suddenly found Pingo not to work for Intrastate calls
> that had worked previously?

I haven't use Pingo and I looked into their website and can't find
their policy on intrastate calls. Their FAQ page won't tell anything
about it either.

You can check Onesuite prepaid long distance service, rates are about
the same as Pingo but it will surely works whether it's intrastate,
interstate or overseas calls.
Their website is http://www.onesuite.com.

HTH

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 19 2009 11:08 pm
From: "www.Queensbridge.us"

On Feb 19, 2:27 pm, OhioGuy <n...@none.net> wrote:
> I listen to Clark Howard's radio show occasionally, and a few months
> ago I heard him talk about a company called Pingo, that evidently offers
> a good deal on long distance telephone service.
>
> I signed up to test it for a month, and once I was satisfied, we
> dumped our old calling card and started to use this for all of our long
> distance. (1.8 cents a minute through a local access #, 2.8 cents a
> minute using their toll free access number) We are here in Ohio, and
> 90%+ of the people I call are in Ohio.
>
> Everything worked fine over the last couple of months, until this
> past week. Suddenly, calls to the 440 area code won't complete. They
> technically go through - the phone at the numbers we call rings - but
> neither we or the party we are calling can hear anything at all. In
> fact, on this end we don't even hear the ringing happening on the line.
> We have called people, and they just assume it is a prank call, with
> no one there.
>
> I contacted Pingo, and this was their reply:
>
> >Thank you for contacting Pingo. Unfortunately "Pingo is not intended
> >for intrastate dialing in the U.S". For example if you are in Florida
> >you can not complete calls, using Pingo, to call Florida.
>
> This is a bunch of bull, because everyone else I've been calling is
> here in Ohio, just as we are. Just in the past couple of days I've
> successfully placed calls to the 419, 614 and 216 area codes - all in
> Ohio. (we are in the 513 area code)
>
> This is a really big issue, because my wife is due to deliver our
> third child any day now, and she can't call her parents and other
> immediate relatives. (most of whom live in the 440 area code) This
> area code previously worked fine before when we tried it using Pingo,
> and now they are telling us that it isn't working because it isn't
> supposed to. I think I'm going to have to get some sort of backup
> calling card she can use until this is straightened out. It's bizarre
> to be put into a situation where I can call all of my friends and
> relatives, but she can no longer call hers.
>
> Has anyone else suddenly found Pingo not to work for Intrastate calls
> that had worked previously?

If you consider MagiJack, be sure to Google "MagicJack reviews"

I like OneSuite for interstate, intrastate and can also call from
OUTSIDE USA!
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many other countries.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: America is doomed without industrial restoration
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/3ac833194943bee0?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 19 2009 3:40 pm
From: Stray Dog

On Fri, 20 Feb 2009, Rod Speed wrote:

>>>> theme park, estimated to cost over $1 billion. By contrast, the
>>>> entire US output in 2008 is estimated at only $860 million.
>
>>>> My point is really simple.
>
>>> Naively simplistic, actually.
>
>>>> If we don't start bringing manufacturing back on-shore,
>
>>> Taint gunna happen. No one is stupid enough to do it where its much more expensive.
>
>> And you have identified the problem.
>
> And you howling about that aint gunna change that fundamental.
>
>> Whether it is Congress, or the unions, or the cost of labor, it all adds up to a lot of unemployed Americans.
>
> No it doesnt. The unemployment rate bottomed at 4.x%, with an immense legal
> and illegal immigration rates, with the participation rate at an all time high.
>
>>>> we'll all be happy just to be eating.
>
>>> Mindlessly silly. Modern first world economys are about a hell of a lot more than just manufacturing.
>
>> Such as what?
>
> Oh, just a few tiny details like medical services, roads,
> houses, infrastructure, the net, ebay, entertainment,
> sports, food service, retail operations, etc etc etc.
>
>> Don't need as many accountants when there are no factories.
>
> Mindlessly silly. Accountants do a hell of a lot more
> than just factorys in modern first world countrys.
>
>> Don't need so many IT types for the same reason.
>
> Mindlessly silly. IT types do a hell of a lot more
> than just factorys in modern first world countrys.
>
>> Engineers are having a hell of a bad time finding work these days.
>
> Pig ignorant lie. In spades now that Obummer is spending so much in infrastructure rebuilding.

Hey, guys, if you want to understand Rod Speed, then read the "Rod Speed
FAQ" (I didn't write it).....

The "Rod Speed FAQ" read it below or at the URL for yourself.....
- - - - - - - - -
http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Alt/alt.internet.wireless/2006-07/ms
g00462.html
- - - - - - - - - -

After its recent emergence in the thread "How to calculate increase
of home wireless router range?", readers of this group may find
this useful. [based on a post in comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage]

Who or What is Rod Speed?

Rod Speed is an entirely modern phenomenon. Essentially, Rod
Speed is an insecure and worthless individual who has discovered
he can enhance his own self-esteem in his own eyes by playing "the
big, hard man" on the InterNet.

Rod is believed to be from Australia.

Rod certainly posts a lot. Why is that?

It relates back to the point about boosting his own self esteem by
what amounts to effectively having a wank in public. Rod's
personality, as exemplified by his posts, means he is practically
unemployable which means he sits around at home all day festering
away and getting worse and worse. This means he posts more and
more try and boost the old failing self esteem. Being unemployed
also means he as a lot of time on his hands to post in he first
place.

But maybe Rod really is a very clever and knowledgable person?

Clever? His posts wouldn't support that theory. As far as being
knowledgable, well, Rod has posted to various aus newsgroups
including invest, comms, and politics. He has posted to all as a
self professed "expert" and flames any and all who disagree with
him. Logically, here's no way any single individual could be
more than a jack of all trades across such a wide spread of
subject matter.

But maybe Rod really is an expert in some areas?

Possibly. However, his "bedside manner" prevents him from being
taken seriously by most normal people. Also, he has damaged his
credibility in areas where he might know what he's on about by
shooting his self in the foot in areas where he does not. For
example, in the case of subject matter such as politics, even a
view held by Albert Einstein cannot be little more than an
opinion and to vociferously denigrate an opposing opinion is
simply small mindedness and bigotry, the kind of which Einstein
himself fought against his whole life.

What is Rod Speed's main modus operandi?

Simple! He shoots off a half brained opinion in response to any
other post and touts that opinion as fact. When challenged, he
responds with vociferous and rabid denigration. He has an
instantly recognisable set of schoolboy put downs limited pretty
much to the following: "Pathetic, Puerile, Little Boy, try
harder, trivial, more lies, gutless wonder, wanker, etc etc".
The fact that Rod has been unable to come up with any new insults
says a lot about his outlook and intelligence.

But why do so many people respond to Rod in turn?

It has to do with effrontery and a lack of logic. Most people
who post have some basis of reason for what they write and when
Rod retorts with his usual denigration and derision they respond
emotionally rather than logically. It's like a teacher in a
class room who has a misbehaving pupil. The teacher challenges
the pupil to explain himself and the student responds with "***
off, Big Nose!" Even thought the teacher has a fairly normal
proboscis, he gets a dent in his self-esteem and might resort to
an emotional repsonse like "yeah? well your *** wouldn't fill a
pop rivet, punk", which merely invites some oneupmanship from the
naughty pupil. Of course, the teacher should not have justified
the initial comment with a response, especially in front of the
class. The correct response was "please report to the
headmaster's office right NOW!"

What is a "RodBot"?

Some respondents in aus.invest built a "virtual Rod" which was
indiscernable from the "real" Rod. Net users could enter an
opinion or even a fact and the RoDBot would tell them they were
pathetic lying schoolboys who should be able to do better or some
equally pithy Rod Speedism.

Are you saying that Rod Speed is a Troll?

You got it!

What is the best way to handle Rod Speed?

KillFile!

>> Even technical work, such as design, analysis, and programming is offshored these days.
>
> Some of it is, plenty of it isnt.
>
>> Unemployment continues to rise in a linear fashion
>
> Pig ignorant lie.
>
>> and is now higher than it has been in decades.
>
> Thats what recessions do.
>
>> I pity those who muddled thru high school and thought the world owed them a living; there are only so many burger
>> flipper jobs.
>
> There's a hell of a lot more than just burger flipping and factory work in any modern first world economy.
>
>> Maybe we could all get degrees in finance and teach each other about investments...
>
> Makes a hell of a lot more sense to get qualified in medicine instead.
>
>
>

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 19 2009 6:18 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

Some gutless fuckwit psychopath with pathetic psychotic
delusions about being a dog, desperately cowering behind
Stray Dog desperately attempted to bullshit and lie its way out
of its predicament and fooled absolutely no one at all, as always.

No surprise that it got the bums rush, right out the door, onto its lard arse.

No surprise that its so pathetically bitter and twisted about it.

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 19 2009 9:59 pm
From: Bama Brian

Rod Speed wrote:
> Bama Brian wrote
>> Rod Speed wrote
>>> Bama Brian wrote
>>>> zzbunker wrote
>>>>> Bama Brian <bamaNOTbr...@att.net> wrote
>>>>>> zzbunkerwrote
>>>>>>> Aviroce <dudaras...@gmail.com> wrote
>
>>>>>>>> Four years ago or more, I wrote an article on open Yahoo forum
>>>>>>>> which Yahoo adapted to their file for publication. That article
>>>>>>>> deals with what America has been known for and that coincides
>>>>>>>> with some of your statements.
>
>>>>>>>> 'The only solution is to withdarw from the WTO and allow US
>>>>>>>> workers - and only US workers - the ability to make this country
>>>>>>>> into a powerhouse again "
>
>>>>>>>> As for your,
>>>>>>>> "This morning I was reading Sen. Leathy's comments supporting
>>>>>>>> immigration "reform". The old degenerate wants more immigrants!
>>>>>>>> " the Army announced plans to induct even temporary visa-ed
>>>>>>>> Mexicans into the Army to fill their quota. Needless to say,
>>>>>>>> the military complex had inducted over 88,000 illegal migrants
>>>>>>>> into the Army, Marines, and Navy and facilitated their USA
>>>>>>>> citizenships while on service of duty. Now they are openning
>>>>>>>> the avenue for further recruits.
>
>>>>>>>> Keep in mind these desparate Mexicans to make a living are
>>>>>>>> "Slaves by Choice." It is undfortunate. Even the Dollar Tree
>>>>>>>> stores use Mexicans for their dedicated labor for less. Rainbow
>>>>>>>> clothing use these Mexicans even in store management. When you
>>>>>>>> pay an employee twelve thousand dollars for work worth sixty
>>>>>>>> thousand dollars, then you got some choice to make.
>>>>>>>> What some of these businesses are forgetting about that American
>>>>>>>> labor is willing to go down in their wages just to land a job. I use a handyman for $50 a day to fix my homes
>>>>>>>> from sheet rock
>>>>>>>> to roofing to electrical work to heating and air conditionning.
>>>>>>>> All workers are Americans, black and white. No illegal aliens.
>>>>>>>> That would be un- American. Having said that I get offended to
>>>>>>>> find an illegal alien manning a Dollar Tree oe Rainbow stores
>>>>>>>> while native Americans are under his/her command. Are
>>>>>>>> Americans being colonized?
>
>>>>>>> Of, course. Since that's the only thing any of those
>>>>>>> convenience stores use for either electric help or anything
>>>>>>> else anymore. Which is also why amymore the real engineers
>>>>>>> mostly build Optical Computers, HDTV, Holograms, On-Line
>>>>>>> Banking, On-Line Publishing, Post Ford Batteries, Adaptive
>>>>>>> A.I. Fiber Optics, Pv Cell Energy, Post AT&T Phonics,
>>>>>>> and Post GM Robotics.
>
>>>>>> The "real" engineers watch their designs being sent offshore for
>>>>>> build. They then watch as the offshore factory engineers blatantly
>>>>>> copy their design and flood the market with cheaper copies.
>
>>>>>> Even IBM sold their computer hardware market directly to a Chinese company.
>
>>>>> Well, that was predestimed. Since it became obvious, quickly
>>>>> after the AT&T breakup, that the only thing iBM knew about
>>>>> computers was AT&T.
>>>>> Which is also the people who knew about computer-engineering
>>>>> jobs worked on Optical Computers, HDTV, Robotics,
>>>>> and Laser Disks that aren't owned by G.M.
>
>>>> Here's a partial list of things no longer made in the US:
>
>>>> Consumer goods: CD's, DVD's, CD/DVD players, laptops, desktops,
>>>> hard disk drives, DRAM, ROM, Flash RAM, TV's, HDTV's, Plasma TV's,
>>>> LCD TV's, Digital cameras, film cameras, computer games,
>>>> telephones, cell phones, watches, bicycles, motorcycles - except
>>>> for perhaps half of Harley's, iPOds, and so on.
>
>>>> Food products: Half of all produce is now grown offshore. Much canning is done in China, where it is physically
>>>> cheaper to ship the produce and have it canned.
>
>>>> Clothing: Virtually all dresses, jeans, pants, underwear, coats,
>>>> shirts, socks and shoes.
>
>>>> Ocean going vessels: 1% made in the US - and those are for the US Navy.
>>>> Aircraft: Approximately 40% of commercial aircraft are built in the US.
>>>> Guns: Half of all guns and ammo are manufactured offshore.
>>>> Manufacturers such as Taurus, H&K, Glock, Browning, and Steyr, lead
>>>> in innovation.
>
>>>> Cars: An estimated sixty percent of the components of so-called
>>>> American cars are built offshore. The number is higher for the
>>>> foreign manufacturers.
>
>>>> Toys: Virtually all toys are manufactured offshore.
>
>>>> Robotics: There are an estimated 186,000 robots in use in the US.
>>>> World-wide there are over a million in use, with Japan being the
>>>> number one manufacturer and user. Even South Korea plans a robotic
>>>> theme park, estimated to cost over $1 billion. By contrast, the
>>>> entire US output in 2008 is estimated at only $860 million.
>
>>>> My point is really simple.
>
>>> Naively simplistic, actually.
>
>>>> If we don't start bringing manufacturing back on-shore,
>
>>> Taint gunna happen. No one is stupid enough to do it where its much more expensive.
>
>> And you have identified the problem.
>
> And you howling about that aint gunna change that fundamental.
>
>> Whether it is Congress, or the unions, or the cost of labor, it all adds up to a lot of unemployed Americans.
>
> No it doesnt. The unemployment rate bottomed at 4.x%, with an immense legal
> and illegal immigration rates, with the participation rate at an all time high.
>
>>>> we'll all be happy just to be eating.
>
>>> Mindlessly silly. Modern first world economys are about a hell of a lot more than just manufacturing.
>
>> Such as what?
>
> Oh, just a few tiny details like medical services,

Medical services are being offshored. Little things like the reading of
x-rays, expensive surgeries, and so on. All the while the fedgov keeps
dumping new regulations on the biz and causing the costs of services to
increase.

roads,

Need tax money for that. AFAIK, every state in the continental US is
short of money due to the recession. Calif., for example, is paralyzed
and finally beginning mass government layoffs.

> houses,

Need disposable income. The US housing market has crashed. Housing
starts are at their lowest since records have been kept.

infrastructure,

See my comment about states and taxes.

the net, ebay, entertainment,
> sports, food service, retail operations, etc etc etc.

See my comment about disposable income.

>
>> Don't need as many accountants when there are no factories.
>
> Mindlessly silly. Accountants do a hell of a lot more
> than just factorys in modern first world countrys.

Like what? Tracking investments? Won't be so many of those without
folks earning good pay.

>
>> Don't need so many IT types for the same reason.
>
> Mindlessly silly. IT types do a hell of a lot more
> than just factorys in modern first world countrys.

See above about accountants.

>
>> Engineers are having a hell of a bad time finding work these days.
>
> Pig ignorant lie. In spades now that Obummer is spending so much in infrastructure rebuilding.

Baroque Obummer has yet to spend a dime. And engineers are out of work.
I know a good EE in Atlanta who has not worked in his trade for eight
years.

>
>> Even technical work, such as design, analysis, and programming is offshored these days.
>
> Some of it is, plenty of it isnt.
>
>> Unemployment continues to rise in a linear fashion
>
> Pig ignorant lie.

Maybe you should go look up the official US stats, Pigboy.

>
>> and is now higher than it has been in decades.
>
> Thats what recessions do.

Make up your mind.

>
>> I pity those who muddled thru high school and thought the world owed them a living; there are only so many burger
>> flipper jobs.
>
> There's a hell of a lot more than just burger flipping and factory work in any modern first world economy.

Like what, when there are only the poor and the rich, and no middle class?

>
>> Maybe we could all get degrees in finance and teach each other about investments...
>
> Makes a hell of a lot more sense to get qualified in medicine instead.

So you could watch your patients get their medicines from China, their
x-rays analyzed by India, and their surgeries done in Thailand?

You really are just a hooting baboon, aren't you, Rod the Slow?

--
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
George Santayana, 1863 - 1952

Cheers,
Bama Brian
Libertarian

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 19 2009 10:51 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

Bama Brian wrote
> Rod Speed wrote
>> Bama Brian wrote
>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>> Bama Brian wrote
>>>>> zzbunker wrote
>>>>>> Bama Brian <bamaNOTbr...@att.net> wrote
>>>>>>> zzbunkerwrote
>>>>>>>> Aviroce <dudaras...@gmail.com> wrote

>>>>>>>>> Four years ago or more, I wrote an article on open Yahoo forum
>>>>>>>>> which Yahoo adapted to their file for publication. That article deals with what America has been known for
>>>>>>>>> and that coincides
>>>>>>>>> with some of your statements.

>>>>>>>>> 'The only solution is to withdarw from the WTO and allow US
>>>>>>>>> workers - and only US workers - the ability to make this
>>>>>>>>> country into a powerhouse again "

>>>>>>>>> As for your,
>>>>>>>>> "This morning I was reading Sen. Leathy's comments supporting
>>>>>>>>> immigration "reform". The old degenerate wants more
>>>>>>>>> immigrants! " the Army announced plans to induct even
>>>>>>>>> temporary visa-ed Mexicans into the Army to fill their quota. Needless to say,
>>>>>>>>> the military complex had inducted over 88,000 illegal migrants
>>>>>>>>> into the Army, Marines, and Navy and facilitated their USA
>>>>>>>>> citizenships while on service of duty. Now they are openning
>>>>>>>>> the avenue for further recruits.

>>>>>>>>> Keep in mind these desparate Mexicans to make a living are
>>>>>>>>> "Slaves by Choice." It is undfortunate. Even the Dollar Tree
>>>>>>>>> stores use Mexicans for their dedicated labor for less. Rainbow clothing use these Mexicans even in store
>>>>>>>>> management. When
>>>>>>>>> you pay an employee twelve thousand dollars for work worth sixty thousand dollars, then you got some choice to
>>>>>>>>> make.

>>>>>>>>> What some of these businesses are forgetting about that
>>>>>>>>> American labor is willing to go down in their wages just to land a
>>>>>>>>> job. I use a handyman for $50 a day to fix my homes from sheet rock to roofing to electrical work to heating
>>>>>>>>> and air conditionning.

>>>>>>>>> All workers are Americans, black and white. No illegal aliens. That would be un- American. Having said that
>>>>>>>>> I get offended to find an illegal alien manning a Dollar Tree oe Rainbow stores
>>>>>>>>> while native Americans are under his/her command. Are
>>>>>>>>> Americans being colonized?

>>>>>>>> Of, course. Since that's the only thing any of those
>>>>>>>> convenience stores use for either electric help or anything
>>>>>>>> else anymore. Which is also why amymore the real engineers
>>>>>>>> mostly build Optical Computers, HDTV, Holograms, On-Line
>>>>>>>> Banking, On-Line Publishing, Post Ford Batteries, Adaptive
>>>>>>>> A.I. Fiber Optics, Pv Cell Energy, Post AT&T Phonics,
>>>>>>>> and Post GM Robotics.

>>>>>>> The "real" engineers watch their designs being sent offshore for
>>>>>>> build. They then watch as the offshore factory engineers blatantly copy their design and flood the market with
>>>>>>> cheaper copies.

>>>>>>> Even IBM sold their computer hardware market directly to a
>>>>>>> Chinese company.

>>>>>> Well, that was predestimed. Since it became obvious, quickly
>>>>>> after the AT&T breakup, that the only thing iBM knew about
>>>>>> computers was AT&T.

>>>>>> Which is also the people who knew about computer-engineering
>>>>>> jobs worked on Optical Computers, HDTV, Robotics,
>>>>>> and Laser Disks that aren't owned by G.M.

>>>>> Here's a partial list of things no longer made in the US:

>>>>> Consumer goods: CD's, DVD's, CD/DVD players, laptops, desktops,
>>>>> hard disk drives, DRAM, ROM, Flash RAM, TV's, HDTV's, Plasma TV's,
>>>>> LCD TV's, Digital cameras, film cameras, computer games,
>>>>> telephones, cell phones, watches, bicycles, motorcycles - except
>>>>> for perhaps half of Harley's, iPOds, and so on.

>>>>> Food products: Half of all produce is now grown offshore. Much
>>>>> canning is done in China, where it is physically cheaper to ship
>>>>> the produce and have it canned.

>>>>> Clothing: Virtually all dresses, jeans, pants, underwear, coats,
>>>>> shirts, socks and shoes.

>>>>> Ocean going vessels: 1% made in the US - and those are for the US Navy. Aircraft: Approximately 40% of
>>>>> commercial aircraft are built in the US. Guns: Half of all guns and ammo are manufactured offshore.
>>>>> Manufacturers such as Taurus, H&K, Glock, Browning, and Steyr,
>>>>> lead in innovation.

>>>>> Cars: An estimated sixty percent of the components of so-called
>>>>> American cars are built offshore. The number is higher for the
>>>>> foreign manufacturers.

>>>>> Toys: Virtually all toys are manufactured offshore.

>>>>> Robotics: There are an estimated 186,000 robots in use in the US.
>>>>> World-wide there are over a million in use, with Japan being the
>>>>> number one manufacturer and user. Even South Korea plans a robotic theme park, estimated to cost over $1 billion.
>>>>> By contrast, the
>>>>> entire US output in 2008 is estimated at only $860 million.

>>>>> My point is really simple.

>>>> Naively simplistic, actually.

>>>>> If we don't start bringing manufacturing back on-shore,

>>>> Taint gunna happen. No one is stupid enough to do it where its
>>>> much more expensive.

>>> And you have identified the problem.

>> And you howling about that aint gunna change that fundamental.

>>> Whether it is Congress, or the unions, or the cost of labor, it all
>>> adds up to a lot of unemployed Americans.

>> No it doesnt. The unemployment rate bottomed at 4.x%, with an immense legal and illegal immigration rates, with the
>> participation rate at an all time high.

>>>>> we'll all be happy just to be eating.

>>>> Mindlessly silly. Modern first world economys are about a hell of
>>>> a lot more than just manufacturing.

>>> Such as what?

>> Oh, just a few tiny details like medical services,

> Medical services are being offshored.

Fuck all of them are, actually.

> Little things like the reading of x-rays, expensive surgeries,

Fuck all except cosmetic surgery has been offshored.

> and so on. All the while the fedgov keeps dumping new regulations on the biz and causing the costs of services to
> increase.

Like the that or lump it.

> roads,

> Need tax money for that.

Just got tax money for that.

> AFAIK, every state in the continental US is short of money due to the recession.

Which might just be why Obummer just organised the feds to pay for that.

> Calif., for example, is paralyzed

Pigs arse it is.

> and finally beginning mass government layoffs.

Another bare faced lie.

>> houses,

> Need disposable income.

With a 7% unemployment rate, hordes have that.

> The US housing market has crashed.

Wont be that way forever.

> Housing starts are at their lowest since records have been kept.

Wont be that way forever.

> infrastructure,

> See my comment about states and taxes.

See mine about what the feds are going to do.

>> the net, ebay, entertainment, sports, food service, retail operations, etc etc etc.

> See my comment about disposable income.

See mine about the 93% employed.

>>> Don't need as many accountants when there are no factories.

>> Mindlessly silly. Accountants do a hell of a lot more
>> than just factorys in modern first world countrys.

> Like what?

Everything else business wise and most personal tax as well.

> Tracking investments?

A trivial part of what they do.

> Won't be so many of those without folks earning good pay.

93% still do.

>>> Don't need so many IT types for the same reason.

>> Mindlessly silly. IT types do a hell of a lot more
>> than just factorys in modern first world countrys.

> See above about accountants.

See above about your shit.

>>> Engineers are having a hell of a bad time finding work these days.

>> Pig ignorant lie. In spades now that Obummer is spending so much in infrastructure rebuilding.

> Baroque Obummer has yet to spend a dime.

It takes time to do that.

> And engineers are out of work.

Plenty will get work spending that money.

> I know a good EE in Atlanta who has not worked in his trade for eight years.

He should have got a clue and got qualified in different engineering.

>>> Even technical work, such as design, analysis, and programming is offshored these days.

>> Some of it is, plenty of it isnt.

>>> Unemployment continues to rise in a linear fashion

>> Pig ignorant lie.

> Maybe you should go look up the official US stats

They say nothing about that being linear, fuckwit.

>>> and is now higher than it has been in decades.

>> Thats what recessions do.

> Make up your mind.

No change of mind, fuckwit.

>>> I pity those who muddled thru high school and thought the world
>>> owed them a living; there are only so many burger flipper jobs.

>> There's a hell of a lot more than just burger flipping and factory work in any modern first world economy.

> Like what, when there are only the poor and the rich, and no middle class?

You wouldnt know what the middle class was if one of them bit you on your lard arse.

>>> Maybe we could all get degrees in finance and teach each other about investments...

>> Makes a hell of a lot more sense to get qualified in medicine instead.

> So you could watch your patients get their medicines from China,

Fuck all of them are that stupid.

> their x-rays analyzed by India, and their surgeries done in Thailand?

Fuck all get other than cosmetic surgery done in Thailand.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: DTV converters
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/e46bdc878c0fe848?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 19 2009 6:31 pm
From: Jeff

clams_casino wrote:
> Jeff wrote:
>
>> Just got my DTV converter coupons and am search of a converter.
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> If I recall correctly, someone on this newsgroup posted a link to a
> site that would show the digital channels available in a zip code.
>
> Anyone have that link?.

http://antennaweb.org

goes beyond that.

Jeff

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 19 2009 6:52 pm
From: Jeff

Jon von Leipzig@mayday.com wrote:
> On Feb 12, 4:29 pm, Gordon <go...@alltomyself.com> wrote:
>> Jeff <dont_bug...@all.uk> wrote in news:DaCdnaBBCsUQ-
>> w_UnZ2dnUVZ_gOWn...@earthlink.com:
>>
>>> Just got my DTV converter coupons and am search of a converter.
>>> Who has one they like?
>>> I'm going to try the Channel Master CM7000, but I have another coupon
>>> to spend.
>>> I see that there are some that perform well, but don't hold up well
>>> from the customer reviews. The dish network TR40 is one.
>>> How about the RCA?
>>> Jeff
>> I went to Radio Shack and got the one they sell. The same
>> unit is available under a different name at Best Buy.
>> It cost about $20.00 over the coupon price. But it works
>> great. I use the composite video outputs, not the RF.
>>
>> You are going to need a decent antenna as well. I am getting
>> but with two bowties arranged a dual dipole.
>
> Sounds like the one I got at RS. Just installed it, using the old
> rabbit ears. Works great. Much improved pic, about double the number
> of channels. Not much worth watching, tho. If it weren't for my
> religion, (football) I probably wouldn't even own a TV.

Here's the update on my converter boxes. Fed Ex misdelivered my
Channel Master Box a block off, so I now have it. In the meantime I
bought the Zenith (DTT901) box (also sold as Insignia, I think).
Sensitivity of the Zenith is considerably better. Stations the Channel
Master is iffy on with considerable drop outs are perfect on the Zenith
(same antenna). The Zenith also picks up stations I can't get at all on
the Channel Master.

Antenna is a cheap rabbit ear combo. The Channel Master has features
that the Zenith doesn't have, like a better program guide and S-Video out.

What is the RS box, is it an Apex?

Jeff

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Money ?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/3e21db3094e8b040?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 19 2009 7:52 pm
From: Jeff

josejarvie@ssnet.net wrote:
> Some economists predict that the U.S. will go into hyper inflation between 2010-2012.

Oh yeah. Which economists? Or is this something you heard on wingnut
radio? Or from wingnut friends?

If anything, durable goods and commodities are falling. T-Bills are
in such high demand the yields are near zero.

Jeff

I don't know how to
> prepare for that other then to plant a big garden and get some chickens.
>
>
> On Wed, 11 Feb 2009 19:10:41 -0600, in misc.consumers.frugal-living "John A. Weeks III" <john@johnweeks.com>
> wrote:
>
>> In article
>> <georgewkspam-C6F0F6.07242411022009@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net>,
>> Okikuro <georgewkspam@humboldt1.com> wrote:
>>
>>> paper bills are great for those that believe in..... gummint.
>> Paper bills are money. You can buy anything you want with
>> it, and exchange it for goods and services. There is nothing
>> to believe in. If you have paper bills, you have money, and
>> you can spend it at will. Anyone who tries to tell you otherwise
>> is a looney.
>>
>> -john-

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Buy Hershey's Kisses @ $1.88 a bag, get free movie tickets
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/370656ca984f9168?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 19 2009 8:08 pm
From: OhioGuy

I just went in our local Gabriel Brothers store and found a pile of
something like 200 packages of Hershey's Kisses, 13.2 ounce bags for
$1.88 each. That isn't a bad deal on its own, but these also happened
to be "Mega Movie Bonus" 5 point bags. This is the Hollywood Movie
Money deal where for 15 points, you get a free movie ticket. (limit 4
certificates per address)

Gabriel Brothers store finder:
http://www.gabrielbrothers.com/stores.php

Hershey's Mega Movie Bonus:
http://www.hersheys.com/megamovie/

Hollywood Movie Money theater lookup: (promo 32368)
http://www.hollywoodmoviemoney.com/theaters?promocode=32368

So for a grand total of $5.64, you get nearly 2.5 pounds of milk
chocolate, plus a free movie ticket. Quadruple this if you go for all 4
tickets.

Hurry, though, submissions must be postmarked by March 1. Looks like
I'm going to have some free tickets to some of the May movies I'm
looking forward to, but would normally wait to see in the cheapie
theaters: Wolverine, Star Trek, Terminator, Night at the Museum, or
maybe even Land of the Lost or Transformers in June.

Upcoming movies:
http://www.imdb.com/nowplaying/2009/05/

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Bubbles are caused by excessive credit.
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/d06a55cb7610180d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 19 2009 8:11 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

(David P.) wrote:
> Peter Franks <n...@none.com> wrote:
>> (David P.) wrote:
>>> The main cause of the Population Bubble is also
>>> excessive credit, i.e., saying that everyone is a
>>> valuable asset as long as they live.
>>> L I K E H E L L T H E Y A R E ! !
>>> Hordes are no longer viable, due to infirmity,
>>> and become a drag on the system.
>>
>> I'm not aware of bubbles in nations where there are these so-called
>> 'hordes' you speak of.
>
>
>
> Economic Death Spiral
>
> By Robert J. Samuelson
> Wednesday, April 6, 2005
>
> The great danger of an aging society is that the rising costs
> of government retirement programs -- mainly Social Security
> and Medicare -- increase taxes or budget deficits so much
> that they reduce economic growth. This could trigger an
> economic and political death spiral. Our commitments to
> pay retirement benefits grow while our capacity to meet
> them shrinks. Workers and retirees battle over a relatively
> fixed economic pie. The debate we're not having is how to
> avoid this dismal future. President Bush's vague Social
> Security proposal, including "personal accounts," sidesteps
> the critical issues. His noisiest critics are equally silent.
>
> Just recently the trustees of Social Security and Medicare
> issued their annual reports on the programs' futures. Here's
> one startling fact that emerges from a close examination of
> the reports: By 2030 the projected costs of Social Security
> and Medicare could easily consume -- via higher taxes -- a
> third of workers' future wage and salary increases. Toss in
> Medicaid (which covers nursing home care and isn't
> included in the trustees' reports) and the bite grows. We're
> mortgaging workers' future pay gains for baby boomers'
> retirement benefits.
>
> The facts are hiding in plain sight. The trustees' reports
> project Social Security and Medicare spending. They also
> estimate future wages and salaries -- the main tax base for
> Social Security and Medicare. Comparing the two shows
> how much retirement costs may erode wage increases.
> The reports should make and highlight this calculation, but
> they don't. So I asked economists Tom Saving of Texas
> A&M University and Eugene Steuerle of the Urban Institute
> to do it. They provided similar results.
>
> Here are the basic numbers, as calculated by Elizabeth Bell,
> a research assistant to Steuerle. In 2005 Social Security
> and Medicare are expected to cost $822 billion (that's net
> of premiums paid by recipients); by 2030 the costs are
> projected to increase to $4.640 trillion. That's an increase
> of $3.818 trillion. Over the same period, annual wages and
> salaries are projected to rise from $5.856 trillion to $17.702
> trillion -- an increase of $11.846 trillion. Despite the big
> numbers, the arithmetic is straightforward: The increases in
> Social Security and Medicare represent 32 percent of the
> increases in wages and salaries.
>
> This matters because Social Security and Medicare (and
> Medicaid, too) are pay-as-you-go programs. Current tax-
> payers pay current benefits. Future taxpayers -- mainly
> future workers -- will pay future benefits. Baby boomers'
> retirement benefits will come mostly from their children and
> grandchildren, who will be tomorrow's workers. Even if
> adopted, President Bush's personal accounts for Social
> Security would hardly alter that. (They wouldn't change
> Medicare and Medicaid and would only slightly affect
> boomers' Social Security benefits.)
>
> Consequently, baby boomers' children and grandchildren
> face massive tax increases. Social Security and Medicare
> spending now equals 14 percent of wage and salary
> income, reports Bell. By 2030, using the trustees' various
> projections, that jumps to 26 percent. Of course, payroll
> taxes don't cover all the costs of Social Security and
> Medicare. Still, these figures provide a crude indicator of
> the economic burden, because costs are imposed heavily
> on workers via some tax (including the income tax),
> government borrowing (a.k.a. the deficit) and cuts in other
> government programs.
>
> It can be argued that the costs are bearable. The wage
> gains in the trustees' reports could prove too pessimistic.
> Like all forecasts, they're subject to errors. Even if they
> come true, they assume that tomorrow's wages will be
> higher than today's. Productivity increases; wages rise.
> In 2030, under the trustees' "intermediate" assumptions,
> workers' before-tax incomes would be about a third higher
> than now, says Saving. What's the gripe if workers lost --
> through steeper taxes -- some of that? Why shouldn't they
> generously support parents and grandparents? Well,
> maybe they will. But there are at least two possible flaws
> in this logic.
>
> The first is that, on a year-to-year basis, wage gains
> would be tiny -- less than 1 percent. When they've gotten
> that low before, people have complained that they're
> "on a treadmill" and that the American dream has been
> repealed. Even these gains might be diluted by further
> tax increases to trim today's already swollen budget
> deficits. The second and more serious threat is that higher
> taxes would harm the economy. They might dull economic
> vitality by reducing investment and the rewards for work
> and risk-taking. Productivity and wage gains might be
> smaller than predicted. Then we'd flirt with that death spiral:
> We'd need still-higher taxes to pay benefits, but those
> taxes might depress economic growth more.
>
> One way or another, workers may get fed up paying so
> much of their paychecks to support retirees, many of
> whom (they would notice) were living quite comfortably.
> Because the dangers are so obvious, we ought to be
> minimizing them now. We ought to redefine the
> generational compact to lighten -- somewhat -- the
> burden of an aging population on workers. The needed
> steps are clear: to acknowledge longer life expectancies
> by slowly raising eligibility ages for Social Security and
> Medicare; to limit future spending by curbing retirement
> benefits for the better-off; to keep people in the
> productive economy longer by encouraging jobs that mix
> "work" and "retirement."

> All advanced societies face a similar problem:
> how to support more retirees with (relatively) fewer workers.

Nope, some allow enough migrants to fix that problem.

> But we won't engage it. Politicians, the media and public
> "intellectuals" of all political stripes refuse to acknowledge
> generational conflicts and the need to make choices,
> some possibly unpopular. Let someone else make them,
> years from now when (of course) they will be much tougher.

Wrong when there are enough migrants to fix the problem.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: O.T. Ben n Jerry's flavors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/c14d4cd92d1c432a?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 19 2009 9:15 pm
From: Devo

Ben & Jerry have created "Yes Pecan!" ice cream flavor for Obama.

Due to the new flavor's popularity, they asked for suggestions from the
public for flavors to commemorate George W.

Here are some of their favorite responses:

- Grape Depression

- Abu Grape

- Cluster Fudge

- Nut'n Accomplished

- Iraqi Road

- Chock 'n Awe

- WireTapioca

- Impeach Cobbler

- Impeach Mint

- Heck of a Job, Brownie!

- Chunky Monkey in Chief

- George Bush Doesn't Care About Dark Chocolate

- WMDelicious

- Guantanmallow

- Neocon Politan

- RockyRoad to Fascism

- The Reese's-cession

- Cookie D'oh!

- Housing Crunch

- Nougalar Proliferation

- Death by Chocolate... and Torture

- Freedom Vanilla Ice Cream

- Chocolate Chip On My Shoulder

- "You're Shitting In My Mouth And Calling It A" Sundae

- Credit Crunch

- Mission Pecanplished

- Good Riddance You Lousy Motherf**ker... Swirl

- Country Pumpkin

- Chocolate Chimp

- Bloody Sundae

- Caramel Preemptive Stripe

- I broke the law and am responsible for the deaths of thousands...with
nuts

thanks, www.alternet.org
--
It's amazing what you can do. If...
you put your mind to it.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Calf's head
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/644d66f8dfad5120?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 19 2009 10:27 pm
From: Walker

Calf's head should be cleansed with very great care; particularly the
lights. The head, the heart, and the lights should boil full two
hours; the liver should be boiled only one hour. It is better to leave
the wind-pipe on, for if it hangs out of the pot while the head is
cooking, all the froth will escape through it. The brains, after being
thoroughly washed, should be put in a little bag; with one pounded
cracker, or as much crumbled bread, seasoned with sifted sage, and
tied up and boiled one hour. After the brains are boiled, they should
be well broken up with a knife, and peppered, salted, and buttered.
They should be put upon the table in a bowl by themselves. Boiling
water, thickened with flour and water, with butter melted in it, is
the proper sauce; some people love vinegar and pepper mixed with the
melted butter; but all are not fond of it; and it is easy for each one
to add it for themselves.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: HEY GROUPIES, THIS IS A MUST READ!!! THANK ME LATER!!! THIS IS NOT SPAM!
!!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/f4cc1145fc911440?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 19 2009 10:35 pm
From: Zee

On Feb 20, 12:17 am, albun...@mailinator.com wrote:
> On Feb 19, 10:58 am, ProudMomOf2Girls <blessed.lady.of.
>
>
>
>
>
> 2.gi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hi Groupies:
>
> > I'm a newbie and I wanted to share something that was sent to me
> > recently. I was curious so I checked it out. Honestly, this is one
> > of the best programs I've seen in a LONG time... I was very impressed!
> > Just make sure you go check it out... Watch all the videos on this
> > page right away! It even shows you how to make over $11,000 per month
> > using a proven step-by-step system that is guaranteed, starting today.
> > You will be blown away, too! Are you sick & tired of making just
> > enough money to survive? I know that I am!!!! Check it out for
> > yourself!
>
> > Has anyone else in this group tried this program?
>
> > Please, let me know what you think. I'm a disabled stay-at-home Mom
> > and I could use some extra funds to make life better for my 2 girls.
>
> You can repackage crap any way you want and it still stinks.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

the thing I don't understand with these make money websites is how
they prject that they are sharing the secrets and they just like want
to give back to the people.. I'd say its no secret and they just want
our money.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Calling card to call from Orlando to Canada? buy in Florida?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/265f45ae05c37c9b?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 19 2009 11:00 pm
From: "www.Queensbridge.us"

On Feb 16, 8:24 pm, lbbss <labi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> We will be going to Orlando soon and will need to call home from
> Florida to Canada. I assume you can easily find a calling card at
> any conveniance store in Florida for $5? That would be much cheaper
> than using my cell phone. I assume you can use these calling card at
> a pay phone? Do you still need to ad some corder's to use the phone?
> Thanks.

I like OneSuite. As low as USA-Canada 1.9CPM!
That's if you use a local access #, E.G.: motel phone or payphone.
Toll free from payphone has surcharge. Can also call from OUTSIDE USA!
Has local access #s in Toronto, Hong Kong etc
Incredibly low long distance phone rates. Works as prepaid phone
card.
PIN not needed for calls from home or cell phone.
Compare the rates at https://www.OneSuite.com No monthly fee or
minimum.
Use Promotion/SuiteTreat Code: "FREEoffer23" for FREE time.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: How McDonald's responds to cheap bastards like us
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/23d05596d9ead4e6?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 19 2009 11:11 pm
From: Zee

On Feb 11, 10:55 am, elaich <x...@y.z> wrote:
> OhioGuy <n...@none.net> wrote innews:gmfiev$21ab$1@news.ett.com.ua:
>
> > A 38% increase
> > to keep that second piece of cheese seemed a bit much, so I don't go to
> > McDonald's much at all any more.
>
> I always order my double cheeseburger at McDonald's "without cheese." That
> gooey manufactured conglomeration they call cheese is inedible.

Same thing here. I want real cheese not some cheesy colored substance.

==============================================================================

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Google Groups: http://groups.google.com/?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living - 25 new messages in 10 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 18 2009 11:56 pm
From: "Jon von Leipzig@mayday.com"

On Feb 12, 4:29 pm, Gordon <go...@alltomyself.com> wrote:
> Jeff <dont_bug...@all.uk> wrote in news:DaCdnaBBCsUQ-
> w_UnZ2dnUVZ_gOWn...@earthlink.com:
>
> > Just got my DTV converter coupons and am search of a converter.
>
> > Who has one they like?
>
> > I'm going to try the Channel Master CM7000, but I have another coupon
> > to spend.
>
> > I see that there are some that perform well, but don't hold up well
> > from the customer reviews. The dish network TR40 is one.
>
> > How about the RCA?
>
> > Jeff
>
> I went to Radio Shack and got the one they sell. The same
> unit is available under a different name at Best Buy.
> It cost about $20.00 over the coupon price. But it works
> great. I use the composite video outputs, not the RF.
>
> You are going to need a decent antenna as well. I am getting
> but with two bowties arranged a dual dipole.

Sounds like the one I got at RS. Just installed it, using the old
rabbit ears. Works great. Much improved pic, about double the number
of channels. Not much worth watching, tho. If it weren't for my
religion, (football) I probably wouldn't even own a TV.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 19 2009 5:09 am
From: "John A. Weeks III"

In article
<e161c684-3673-4d06-962d-2f74644c1940@s20g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>,
"Jon von Leipzig@mayday.com" <JonLeipzig@myway.com> wrote:

> Sounds like the one I got at RS. Just installed it, using the old
> rabbit ears. Works great. Much improved pic, about double the number
> of channels. Not much worth watching, tho. If it weren't for my
> religion, (football) I probably wouldn't even own a TV.

If you are a football fan, which you write that you are, that is
reason enough to get HD TV. Football in HD is a whole different
game. Things that are fuzzy in SD are crystal clear in HD, such
as the names on the uniforms and the ball flying through the
air. Instant replay suddenly becomes much more clear, and the
wide screen allows more of the play to be in the picture. If
you see football once in HD, you will never go back.

-john-

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Beat a Foreclosure,?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/6b1232feef201bad?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 19 2009 12:35 am
From: asiandollno1@gmail.com

Steps On How To Beat Foreclosure On A Home

1. If you're going to have trouble meeting your mortgage payment, call
your mortgage lender immediately. Swift action may prevent the loss of
your home.
2. Mortgage lenders will always want to work with you and help you
find a way to keep your home. That's because they're in the money
lending business not the real estate business.
3. If your mortgage lender has not had a payment from you for a month
or two, and if they haven't heard from you, they will assume you do
not intend to pay them. In that case they will feel justified in
trying to take back your house.
4. If you are in serious financial difficulty, you should seek
professional assistance and/or legal counsel to best protect your
investment and your home.
5. Before you call your lender, be ready to discuss your financial
problems. They will need all the information you can give them in
order to help you.
6. Make notes about your income and outgoings so you will be better
able to answer questions. It will impress the lender if you seem to be
making a sincere attempt to tell the truth about your situation and
get your finances under control.
7. There are a number of ways in which your lender may be able to
help. If you get in touch with a lender before you miss a payment, the
lender might offer forbearance. This means they would put the soon-to-
be-missed payment at the back of the loan, allowing you to skip a
month and not getting a mortgage late on your credit. This is why you
need to contact your lender if you've lost a job or had some other
short-term setback. In fact, your lender may allow you to skip several
payments and give you time to get back on your feet.
8. Ask your lender about restructuring your loan. Since the lender
knows that mortgage payments are the last payments a person will let
slide they already realize you are probably having a few other
financial problems.
9. If you have some equity in your home, a lender may allow you to
restructure your loan to lower the monthly payments. If you've missed
some payments they may even agree to add the past amount due into the
new loan.
10. Ask your lender about helping you get a one-time payment from the
government's FHA-Insurance Fund to bring your mortgage current. You
may qualify if your loan is at least 4 months delinquent, but no more
than 12, and you are able to begin making full mortgage payments.
11. If your problem is so serious that it can't be resolved in a
reasonable amount of time, it may be better for you to sell your home
and find one with more manageable payments. In that case, sell the
home, pay off both the mortgage balance and your delinquent debt, and
avoid foreclosure.
12. If you can't sell your home it may be possible to sign it over to
a lender. This is considered a voluntary foreclosure and could damage
your credit record. You will lose your home, but you will not be held
liable if the home sells below the debt amount.
13. The last resort, when all other options fail, is to declare
bankruptcy, since foreclosure proceedings are usually stopped until a
bankruptcy is resolved. This may save your home although it will
damage your credit record for at least 7 years and you will lose
control of your finances.

AsianDoll

Since its my school semester break I have been using my free time
playing games like <a href=http://www.gamestotal.com> http://www.gamestotal.com
</a> <a href=http://uc.gamestotal.com> http://uc.gamestotal.com </a>
<a href=http://gc.gamestotal.com> http://gc.gamestotal.com </a> <a
href=http://3700ad.gamestotal.com> http://3700ad.gamestotal.com </a>
<a href=http://manga.gamestotal.com> http://manga.gamestotal.com </a>

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 19 2009 12:45 am
From: "Malcolm \"Mal\" Reynolds"

"John A. Weeks III" <john@johnweeks.com> wrote in news:john-
A4DB2C.18235918022009@news-3.octanews.net:

> In article
> <georgewkspam-86BC38.15282318022009@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net>,
> Devo <georgewkspam@humboldt1.com> wrote:
>
>> Home owners try this new strategy .
>> Persuade a judge to compel production of hard to find or nonexistent
>> mortgage document can at the very least delay foreclosure, buying the
>> homeowner some time and turning up the pressure on the lender to
>> renegotiate the mortgage.
>> ask the lender. "Show me the Note"
>
> Isn't the note recorded with the county in your area? Here in
> MN, it would take just minutes at the courthouse to produce
> that document. And if the mortgage company gets a deficiency
> judgement against you, you end up paying the legal costs for
> this bonehead move.
>
> -john-
>

The mortgage companies sold the notes which got diced and sliced. It was
very easy for original documents to be lost/misplaced and some judges will
go along with only the "original"

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 19 2009 8:30 am
From: Brian Elfert

asiandollno1@gmail.com writes:

>11. If your problem is so serious that it can=92t be resolved in a
>reasonable amount of time, it may be better for you to sell your home
>and find one with more manageable payments. In that case, sell the
>home, pay off both the mortgage balance and your delinquent debt, and
>avoid foreclosure.

To do this the lender would have to accept a short sale in many cases. A
lot of martgages are more than the house is worth at this point in today's
market.

A quick sale these days would probably require a hefty discount making the
mortgage even more of a loss for the bank.

Brian Elfert

==============================================================================
TOPIC: It's all falling apart, isn't it?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/aaee75672b67549f?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 6 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 19 2009 12:35 am
From: Trader100

On Feb 15, 5:27 am, phil scott <p...@philscott.net> wrote:
> Such things as expressing a controversial opininion are now frowned on
> or outright illegal... we have bred more than an incompetent class...
> we have bred a class of people that will never know victor

I agree and this is the result of Tautological thinking as I explained
on the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tautology_(rhetoric) the core of
which I wrote. They censored about 20% but the essence is still there.
For the full uncensored article see http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/TauTology

Our minds and thinking have become tautological starting with
Aristotle, to James Hutton, Matthews, Wallace and finally Darwin who
plagiarized their ideas.

== 2 of 6 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 19 2009 4:40 am
From: Dan

on 2/19/09 2:35 AM Trader100 said the following:
> On Feb 15, 5:27 am, phil scott <p...@philscott.net> wrote:
>> Such things as expressing a controversial opininion are now frowned on
>> or outright illegal... we have bred more than an incompetent class...
>> we have bred a class of people that will never know victor
>
> I agree and this is the result of Tautological thinking as I explained
> on the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tautology_(rhetoric) the core of
> which I wrote. They censored about 20% but the essence is still there.
> For the full uncensored article see http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/TauTology
>
> Our minds and thinking have become tautological starting with
> Aristotle, to James Hutton, Matthews, Wallace and finally Darwin who
> plagiarized their ideas.

Just look at medical research. Associations and Tautologies galore!
But rarely Causation.

Mark my words: The USA GDP will contract >= 5% in 2009. Mark them!
Life is not aF(x) = F(ax)! The politicians are sending the USA economy
and the world's (via crony banking system) into a non-linear tailspin of
unnecessary destruction.

== 3 of 6 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 19 2009 5:11 am
From: "John A. Weeks III"

In article
<5d828586-96a3-4baf-b7f8-11b55f05b259@j38g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>,
Trader100 <StephanusR@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Feb 15, 5:27 am, phil scott <p...@philscott.net> wrote:
> > Such things as expressing a controversial opininion are now frowned on
> > or outright illegal... we have bred more than an incompetent class...
> > we have bred a class of people that will never know victor
>
> I agree and this is the result of Tautological thinking as I explained
> on the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tautology_(rhetoric) the core of
> which I wrote. They censored about 20% but the essence is still there.
> For the full uncensored article see http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/TauTology

There is a huge difference between expressing a controversial opinion
and saying something stupid or inflammatory. If you post something
kooky, expect to be treated like a kook.

-john-

John A. Weeks III wrote:
> In article
> <5d828586-96a3-4baf-b7f8-11b55f05b259@j38g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>,
> Trader100 <StephanusR@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Feb 15, 5:27 am, phil scott <p...@philscott.net> wrote:
>>> Such things as expressing a controversial opininion are now frowned on
>>> or outright illegal... we have bred more than an incompetent class...
>>> we have bred a class of people that will never know victor
>> I agree and this is the result of Tautological thinking as I explained
>> on the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tautology_(rhetoric) the core of
>> which I wrote. They censored about 20% but the essence is still there.
>> For the full uncensored article see http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/TauTology
>
> There is a huge difference between expressing a controversial opinion
> and saying something stupid or inflammatory. If you post something
> kooky, expect to be treated like a kook.
>
> -john-
>

That was some pretty dry reading Mr. Weeks. TauTological thinking is
one dry subject... Can we argue instead? <s>

== 5 of 6 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 19 2009 9:51 am
From: Cindy Hamilton

On Feb 18, 8:50 pm, Harold Burton <hal.i.bur...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> In article
> <8822ef0e-ed15-44b2-bffc-2198990c2...@m2g2000vbp.googlegroups.com>,
> Cindy Hamilton <angelicapagane...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > On Feb 17, 9:46 pm, Harold Burton <hal.i.bur...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Right, before DemocRAT Johnson changed the rules. Bet the
> > > Obama-lama-ding-dong appreciates that.
>
> > You undermine the validity of your position by resorting to junior-
> > high insults.
>
> Which makes me different for all the lefturds posting, how?

Does this rhetorical question mean that you don't care about
being different from the "lefturds"? I should imagine that
you would want to distinguish yourself from them as much
as possible.

> I notice you chose to dodge the question. Good idea.

I saw no question in your post, only assertions. I am
relatively indifferent to the political machinations that
result in underestimation of unemployment figures.

Politicians lie, regardless of which way they lean. It
is fruitless to point fingers in one direction when lies
emanation from all quarters.

Cindy Hamilton wrote:
> On Feb 18, 8:50 pm, Harold Burton <hal.i.bur...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> In article
>> <8822ef0e-ed15-44b2-bffc-2198990c2...@m2g2000vbp.googlegroups.com>,
>> Cindy Hamilton <angelicapagane...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Feb 17, 9:46 pm, Harold Burton <hal.i.bur...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Right, before DemocRAT Johnson changed the rules. Bet the
>>>> Obama-lama-ding-dong appreciates that.
>>> You undermine the validity of your position by resorting to junior-
>>> high insults.
>> Which makes me different for all the lefturds posting, how?
>
> Does this rhetorical question mean that you don't care about
> being different from the "lefturds"? I should imagine that
> you would want to distinguish yourself from them as much
> as possible.
>
>> I notice you chose to dodge the question. Good idea.
>
> I saw no question in your post, only assertions. I am
> relatively indifferent to the political machinations that
> result in underestimation of unemployment figures.
>
> Politicians lie, regardless of which way they lean. It
> is fruitless to point fingers in one direction when lies
> emanation from all quarters.

Yea they are just a lying bunch of liars.

I have suggesting each election to vote out ALL incumbents for years
now. How are you voting?

==============================================================================
TOPIC: (WWW.STYLISHDUDES.COM)nike shoes:$32,handbag:$35,NFL:$20,jean:$30,UGG
boot:$50(FREE SHIPPING)
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/7187b39c62964ba5?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Mixing CFLs
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/3585b15c24a653c0?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 19 2009 7:01 am
From: Evelyn Leeper

Gordon wrote:
> Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> wrote in
> news:O8Odna7r3rdY0gHUnZ2dnUVZ_vKdnZ2d@posted.visi:
>
>> But do note that CFLs may not be a good choice for some enclosed or
>> recessed fixtures. They don't make anywhere near as much heat as an
>> incandescent, but they're very much more sensitive to heat.
>
> My experience in shopping for CFLs recently has been that they
> don't recomend them for use in enclosed fixtures. I didn't
> see that warning on the package, but it was printed on the
> ballast of the bulb in the package. I finnaly found a pair
> of bulbs that didn't have the warning and were garenteed
> to fire up at low temps. Since I was placing them in an
> enclosed outdoor fixture...

We've been using them in enclosed fixtures for quite a while (if that
includes ceiling globes). Those were the first to be changed over,
because having to change the bulbs frequently is a nuisance, and putting
in CFLs meant not having to do that.

--
Evelyn C. Leeper
Nobody believes the official spokesman ... but everybody
trusts an unidentified source. -Ron Nesen, 1977

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 19 2009 7:18 am
From: "h"

"Evelyn Leeper" <eleeper@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:499d7440$0$20298$607ed4bc@cv.net...
> Gordon wrote:
>> Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> wrote in
>> news:O8Odna7r3rdY0gHUnZ2dnUVZ_vKdnZ2d@posted.visi:
>>
>>> But do note that CFLs may not be a good choice for some enclosed or
>>> recessed fixtures. They don't make anywhere near as much heat as an
>>> incandescent, but they're very much more sensitive to heat.
>>
>> My experience in shopping for CFLs recently has been that they
>> don't recomend them for use in enclosed fixtures. I didn't see that
>> warning on the package, but it was printed on the
>> ballast of the bulb in the package. I finnaly found a pair
>> of bulbs that didn't have the warning and were garenteed to fire up at
>> low temps. Since I was placing them in an
>> enclosed outdoor fixture...
>
> We've been using them in enclosed fixtures for quite a while (if that
> includes ceiling globes). Those were the first to be changed over,
> because having to change the bulbs frequently is a nuisance, and putting
> in CFLs meant not having to do that.
>

Agreed. Most of my lights are in enclosed fixtures (track, recessed, or
globe) and all my bulbs are CFLs. Never had any problems.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 19 2009 8:18 am
From: "JR Weiss"

> But do note that CFLs may not be a good choice for some enclosed or
> recessed fixtures. They don't make anywhere near as much heat as an
> incandescent, but they're very much more sensitive to heat.

I had a couple early CFL floods in the recessed fixtures in my kitchen
ceiling. When I took one out to clean, I noticed the tube was no longer
firmly attached to the base. The second one was the same. I replaced them
with newer versions, and have no problems with them.

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 19 2009 7:58 am
From: ProudMomOf2Girls

Hi Groupies:

I'm a newbie and I wanted to share something that was sent to me
recently. I was curious so I checked it out. Honestly, this is one
of the best programs I've seen in a LONG time... I was very impressed!
Just make sure you go check it out... Watch all the videos on this
page right away! It even shows you how to make over $11,000 per month
using a proven step-by-step system that is guaranteed, starting today.
You will be blown away, too! Are you sick & tired of making just
enough money to survive? I know that I am!!!! Check it out for
yourself!

http://www.MillionaireMaverickCoaching.com

Has anyone else in this group tried this program?

Please, let me know what you think. I'm a disabled stay-at-home Mom
and I could use some extra funds to make life better for my 2 girls.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 19 2009 8:17 am
From: albundy2@mailinator.com

On Feb 19, 10:58 am, ProudMomOf2Girls <blessed.lady.of.
2.gi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Groupies:
>
> I'm a newbie and I wanted to share something that was sent to me
> recently. I was curious so I checked it out. Honestly, this is one
> of the best programs I've seen in a LONG time... I was very impressed!
> Just make sure you go check it out... Watch all the videos on this
> page right away! It even shows you how to make over $11,000 per month
> using a proven step-by-step system that is guaranteed, starting today.
> You will be blown away, too! Are you sick & tired of making just
> enough money to survive? I know that I am!!!! Check it out for
> yourself!
>
>
>
> Has anyone else in this group tried this program?
>
> Please, let me know what you think. I'm a disabled stay-at-home Mom
> and I could use some extra funds to make life better for my 2 girls.

You can repackage crap any way you want and it still stinks.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: thrift finds
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/3197a4fb4f662174?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 19 2009 8:26 am
From: Derald

invalid@invalid.com wrote:

>They still make them.
Perhaps, but at those prices they can keep them as long as the real
things show up from time to time in thrift stores and yard sales.
Besides being pricey, the only model that really interests me, with no
numeric keypad, is "no longer available".

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 19 2009 8:26 am
From: Derald

The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>tmclone@searchmachine.com wrote:
>> What's up with actually LIKING, and WANTING
>> your keyboard to make noise? The rest of us just wanted to work in
>> silence. I'm so glad I don't have to listen to that crap now that I'm
>> self-employed and working at home.
>
>You're just pissed because it used to be easy for the boss to tell who was
>working and who wasn't!
Nah, (s)he just doesn't get it: It ain't about the sound; it's
about the "feel".

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 19 2009 11:32 am
From: josejarvie@ssnet.net

On Thu, 19 Feb 2009 11:26:22 -0500, in misc.consumers.frugal-living Derald <derald@invalid.net> wrote:

>The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>tmclone@searchmachine.com wrote:
>>> What's up with actually LIKING, and WANTING
>>> your keyboard to make noise? The rest of us just wanted to work in
>>> silence. I'm so glad I don't have to listen to that crap now that I'm
>>> self-employed and working at home.
>>
>>You're just pissed because it used to be easy for the boss to tell who was
>>working and who wasn't!
> Nah, (s)he just doesn't get it: It ain't about the sound; it's
>about the "feel".

They hurt my wrists.

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 19 2009 10:00 am
From: Bama Brian

Rod Speed wrote:
> Bama Brian wrote:
>> zzbunker wrote:
>>> On Feb 17, 12:00 pm, Bama Brian <bamaNOTbr...@att.net> wrote:
>>>> zzbunkerwrote:
>>>>> On Feb 15, 9:10 pm, Aviroce <dudaras...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Four years ago or more, I wrote an article on open Yahoo forum
>>>>>> which Yahoo adapted to their file for publication. That article
>>>>>> deals with what America has been known for and that coincides
>>>>>> with some of your statements.
>>>>>> 'The only solution is to withdarw from the WTO and allow US
>>>>>> workers - and only US workers - the ability to make this country
>>>>>> into a powerhouse again "
>>>>>> As for your,
>>>>>> "This morning I was reading Sen. Leathy's comments supporting
>>>>>> immigration "reform". The old degenerate wants more immigrants! "
>>>>>> the Army announced plans to induct even temporary visa-ed Mexicans
>>>>>> into the Army to fill their quota. Needless to say, the military
>>>>>> complex had inducted over 88,000 illegal migrants into the Army,
>>>>>> Marines, and Navy and facilitated their USA citizenships while on
>>>>>> service of duty. Now they are openning the avenue for further
>>>>>> recruits.
>>>>>> Keep in mind these desparate Mexicans to make a living are
>>>>>> "Slaves by Choice." It is undfortunate. Even the Dollar Tree
>>>>>> stores use Mexicans for their dedicated labor for less. Rainbow
>>>>>> clothing use these Mexicans even in store management. When you
>>>>>> pay an employee twelve thousand dollars for work worth sixty
>>>>>> thousand dollars, then you got some choice to make.
>>>>>> What some of these businesses are forgetting about that American
>>>>>> labor is willing to go down in their wages just to land a job. I
>>>>>> use a handyman for $50 a day to fix my homes from sheet rock to
>>>>>> roofing to electrical work to heating and air conditionning. All
>>>>>> workers are Americans, black and white. No illegal aliens. That
>>>>>> would be un- American. Having said that I get offended to find
>>>>>> an illegal alien manning a Dollar Tree oe Rainbow stores while
>>>>>> native Americans are under his/her command. Are Americans being
>>>>>> colonized?
>>>>> Of, course. Since that's the only thing any of those convenience
>>>>> stores use for either electric help or anything else anymore.
>>>>> Which is also why amymore the real engineers mostly build
>>>>> Optical Computers, HDTV, Holograms, On-Line Banking,
>>>>> On-Line Publishing, Post Ford Batteries, Adaptive A.I.
>>>>> Fiber Optics, Pv Cell Energy, Post AT&T Phonics,
>>>>> and Post GM Robotics.
>>>> The "real" engineers watch their designs being sent offshore for
>>>> build. They then watch as the offshore factory engineers blatantly
>>>> copy their design and flood the market with cheaper copies.
>>>>
>>>> Even IBM sold their computer hardware market directly to a Chinese
>>>> company.
>>> Well, that was predestimed. Since it became obvious, quickly
>>> after the AT&T breakup, that the only thing iBM knew about
>>> computers was AT&T.
>>> Which is also the people who knew about computer-engineering
>>> jobs worked on Optical Computers, HDTV, Robotics,
>>> and Laser Disks that aren't owned by G.M.
>> Here's a partial list of things no longer made in the US:
>>
>> Consumer goods: CD's, DVD's, CD/DVD players, laptops, desktops, hard
>> disk drives, DRAM, ROM, Flash RAM, TV's, HDTV's, Plasma TV's, LCD
>> TV's, Digital cameras, film cameras, computer games, telephones, cell
>> phones, watches, bicycles, motorcycles - except for perhaps half of
>> Harley's, iPOds, and so on.
>>
>> Food products: Half of all produce is now grown offshore. Much
>> canning is done in China, where it is physically cheaper to ship the
>> produce and have it canned.
>>
>> Clothing: Virtually all dresses, jeans, pants, underwear, coats,
>> shirts, socks and shoes.
>>
>> Ocean going vessels: 1% made in the US - and those are for the US
>> Navy.
>> Aircraft: Approximately 40% of commercial aircraft are built in the
>> US.
>> Guns: Half of all guns and ammo are manufactured offshore.
>> Manufacturers such as Taurus, H&K, Glock, Browning, and Steyr, lead in
>> innovation.
>>
>> Cars: An estimated sixty percent of the components of so-called
>> American cars are built offshore. The number is higher for the
>> foreign manufacturers.
>>
>> Toys: Virtually all toys are manufactured offshore.
>>
>> Robotics: There are an estimated 186,000 robots in use in the US.
>> World-wide there are over a million in use, with Japan being the
>> number one manufacturer and user. Even South Korea plans a robotic
>> theme park, estimated to cost over $1 billion. By contrast, the
>> entire US output in 2008 is estimated at only $860 million.
>
>> My point is really simple.
>
> Naively simplistic, actually.
>
>> If we don't start bringing manufacturing back on-shore,
>
> Taint gunna happen. No one is stupid enough to do it where its much more expensive.

And you have identified the problem. Whether it is Congress, or the
unions, or the cost of labor, it all adds up to a lot of unemployed
Americans.

>
>> we'll all be happy just to be eating.
>
> Mindlessly silly. Modern first world economys are about a hell of a lot more than just manufacturing.

Such as what? Don't need as many accountants when there are no
factories. Don't need so many IT types for the same reason. Engineers
are having a hell of a bad time finding work these days. Even technical
work, such as design, analysis, and programming is offshored these days.
Unemployment continues to rise in a linear fashion and is now higher
than it has been in decades.

I pity those who muddled thru high school and thought the world owed
them a living; there are only so many burger flipper jobs.

Maybe we could all get degrees in finance and teach each other about
investments...

--
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
George Santayana, 1863 - 1952

Cheers,
Bama Brian
Libertarian

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 19 2009 11:48 am
From: "Rod Speed"

Bama Brian wrote
> Rod Speed wrote
>> Bama Brian wrote
>>> zzbunker wrote
>>>> Bama Brian <bamaNOTbr...@att.net> wrote
>>>>> zzbunkerwrote
>>>>>> Aviroce <dudaras...@gmail.com> wrote

>>>>>>> Four years ago or more, I wrote an article on open Yahoo forum
>>>>>>> which Yahoo adapted to their file for publication. That article
>>>>>>> deals with what America has been known for and that coincides
>>>>>>> with some of your statements.

>>>>>>> 'The only solution is to withdarw from the WTO and allow US
>>>>>>> workers - and only US workers - the ability to make this country
>>>>>>> into a powerhouse again "

>>>>>>> As for your,
>>>>>>> "This morning I was reading Sen. Leathy's comments supporting
>>>>>>> immigration "reform". The old degenerate wants more immigrants!
>>>>>>> " the Army announced plans to induct even temporary visa-ed
>>>>>>> Mexicans into the Army to fill their quota. Needless to say,
>>>>>>> the military complex had inducted over 88,000 illegal migrants
>>>>>>> into the Army, Marines, and Navy and facilitated their USA
>>>>>>> citizenships while on service of duty. Now they are openning
>>>>>>> the avenue for further recruits.

>>>>>>> Keep in mind these desparate Mexicans to make a living are
>>>>>>> "Slaves by Choice." It is undfortunate. Even the Dollar Tree
>>>>>>> stores use Mexicans for their dedicated labor for less. Rainbow
>>>>>>> clothing use these Mexicans even in store management. When you
>>>>>>> pay an employee twelve thousand dollars for work worth sixty
>>>>>>> thousand dollars, then you got some choice to make.
>>>>>>> What some of these businesses are forgetting about that American
>>>>>>> labor is willing to go down in their wages just to land a job. I use a handyman for $50 a day to fix my homes
>>>>>>> from sheet rock
>>>>>>> to roofing to electrical work to heating and air conditionning.
>>>>>>> All workers are Americans, black and white. No illegal aliens.
>>>>>>> That would be un- American. Having said that I get offended to
>>>>>>> find an illegal alien manning a Dollar Tree oe Rainbow stores
>>>>>>> while native Americans are under his/her command. Are
>>>>>>> Americans being colonized?

>>>>>> Of, course. Since that's the only thing any of those
>>>>>> convenience stores use for either electric help or anything
>>>>>> else anymore. Which is also why amymore the real engineers
>>>>>> mostly build Optical Computers, HDTV, Holograms, On-Line
>>>>>> Banking, On-Line Publishing, Post Ford Batteries, Adaptive
>>>>>> A.I. Fiber Optics, Pv Cell Energy, Post AT&T Phonics,
>>>>>> and Post GM Robotics.

>>>>> The "real" engineers watch their designs being sent offshore for
>>>>> build. They then watch as the offshore factory engineers blatantly
>>>>> copy their design and flood the market with cheaper copies.

>>>>> Even IBM sold their computer hardware market directly to a Chinese company.

>>>> Well, that was predestimed. Since it became obvious, quickly
>>>> after the AT&T breakup, that the only thing iBM knew about
>>>> computers was AT&T.
>>>> Which is also the people who knew about computer-engineering
>>>> jobs worked on Optical Computers, HDTV, Robotics,
>>>> and Laser Disks that aren't owned by G.M.

>>> Here's a partial list of things no longer made in the US:

>>> Consumer goods: CD's, DVD's, CD/DVD players, laptops, desktops,
>>> hard disk drives, DRAM, ROM, Flash RAM, TV's, HDTV's, Plasma TV's,
>>> LCD TV's, Digital cameras, film cameras, computer games,
>>> telephones, cell phones, watches, bicycles, motorcycles - except
>>> for perhaps half of Harley's, iPOds, and so on.

>>> Food products: Half of all produce is now grown offshore. Much canning is done in China, where it is physically
>>> cheaper to ship the produce and have it canned.

>>> Clothing: Virtually all dresses, jeans, pants, underwear, coats,
>>> shirts, socks and shoes.

>>> Ocean going vessels: 1% made in the US - and those are for the US Navy.
>>> Aircraft: Approximately 40% of commercial aircraft are built in the US.
>>> Guns: Half of all guns and ammo are manufactured offshore.
>>> Manufacturers such as Taurus, H&K, Glock, Browning, and Steyr, lead
>>> in innovation.

>>> Cars: An estimated sixty percent of the components of so-called
>>> American cars are built offshore. The number is higher for the
>>> foreign manufacturers.

>>> Toys: Virtually all toys are manufactured offshore.

>>> Robotics: There are an estimated 186,000 robots in use in the US.
>>> World-wide there are over a million in use, with Japan being the
>>> number one manufacturer and user. Even South Korea plans a robotic
>>> theme park, estimated to cost over $1 billion. By contrast, the
>>> entire US output in 2008 is estimated at only $860 million.

>>> My point is really simple.

>> Naively simplistic, actually.

>>> If we don't start bringing manufacturing back on-shore,

>> Taint gunna happen. No one is stupid enough to do it where its much more expensive.

> And you have identified the problem.

And you howling about that aint gunna change that fundamental.

> Whether it is Congress, or the unions, or the cost of labor, it all adds up to a lot of unemployed Americans.

No it doesnt. The unemployment rate bottomed at 4.x%, with an immense legal
and illegal immigration rates, with the participation rate at an all time high.

>>> we'll all be happy just to be eating.

>> Mindlessly silly. Modern first world economys are about a hell of a lot more than just manufacturing.

> Such as what?

Oh, just a few tiny details like medical services, roads,
houses, infrastructure, the net, ebay, entertainment,
sports, food service, retail operations, etc etc etc.

> Don't need as many accountants when there are no factories.

Mindlessly silly. Accountants do a hell of a lot more
than just factorys in modern first world countrys.

> Don't need so many IT types for the same reason.

Mindlessly silly. IT types do a hell of a lot more
than just factorys in modern first world countrys.

> Engineers are having a hell of a bad time finding work these days.

Pig ignorant lie. In spades now that Obummer is spending so much in infrastructure rebuilding.

> Even technical work, such as design, analysis, and programming is offshored these days.

Some of it is, plenty of it isnt.

> Unemployment continues to rise in a linear fashion

Pig ignorant lie.

> and is now higher than it has been in decades.

Thats what recessions do.

> I pity those who muddled thru high school and thought the world owed them a living; there are only so many burger
> flipper jobs.

There's a hell of a lot more than just burger flipping and factory work in any modern first world economy.

> Maybe we could all get degrees in finance and teach each other about investments...

Makes a hell of a lot more sense to get qualified in medicine instead.

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 19 2009 11:27 am
From: OhioGuy

I listen to Clark Howard's radio show occasionally, and a few months
ago I heard him talk about a company called Pingo, that evidently offers
a good deal on long distance telephone service.

I signed up to test it for a month, and once I was satisfied, we
dumped our old calling card and started to use this for all of our long
distance. (1.8 cents a minute through a local access #, 2.8 cents a
minute using their toll free access number) We are here in Ohio, and
90%+ of the people I call are in Ohio.

Everything worked fine over the last couple of months, until this
past week. Suddenly, calls to the 440 area code won't complete. They
technically go through - the phone at the numbers we call rings - but
neither we or the party we are calling can hear anything at all. In
fact, on this end we don't even hear the ringing happening on the line.
We have called people, and they just assume it is a prank call, with
no one there.

I contacted Pingo, and this was their reply:

>Thank you for contacting Pingo. Unfortunately "Pingo is not intended
>for intrastate dialing in the U.S". For example if you are in Florida
>you can not complete calls, using Pingo, to call Florida.

This is a bunch of bull, because everyone else I've been calling is
here in Ohio, just as we are. Just in the past couple of days I've
successfully placed calls to the 419, 614 and 216 area codes - all in
Ohio. (we are in the 513 area code)

This is a really big issue, because my wife is due to deliver our
third child any day now, and she can't call her parents and other
immediate relatives. (most of whom live in the 440 area code) This
area code previously worked fine before when we tried it using Pingo,
and now they are telling us that it isn't working because it isn't
supposed to. I think I'm going to have to get some sort of backup
calling card she can use until this is straightened out. It's bizarre
to be put into a situation where I can call all of my friends and
relatives, but she can no longer call hers.

Has anyone else suddenly found Pingo not to work for Intrastate calls
that had worked previously?

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 19 2009 1:41 pm
From: Strabo

dcaster@krl.org wrote:
> On Feb 16, 3:56 am, Too_Many_Tools <too_many_to...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> I have seen housing prices drop 60-80% in my lifetime...no reason why
>> it can't do that again.
>
> Just when did you see housing prices drop 60-80%? I sure do not
> remember anything close to that happening.
>

Unless he went through the 1930s, he probably means 60%-80% increase.
What goes up will come down.

>
>> I also point out that the baby boomers are retiring...and need their
>> home equity to survive retirement.
>
> Why do baby boomers need their house equity to survive retirement? I
> am retired and do not need my house equity to survive. I just need to
> keep my house so I have a place to live. If the value of my house
> went down to zero, it would make no difference in my income.
>
> Dan
>

That's a good position.

The next concern is those who will attempt to remove you from your
home and take your stuff.

1. Government health/safety/taxing agencies.

2. Urban mutants.

3. Illegal alien incursion.

Tip: After age 60, avoid going into a hospital or FEMA camp.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 19 2009 2:05 pm
From: Strabo

Those are quantitative measurements designed as predictive tools
but with no relevance to the individual.

One lives locally. That's his real world.

Humans are thinking, interactive players whose self-interest is
always presumed paramount. Politicians on the other hand claim to
represent a collective bias, a known lie. Hence, the games begin.

Lawyers and politicians are unnecessary and dangerous.

Replacement costs are subject to change. Underwriters use local
and regional cost analysis. As time goes on, only local labor
and material availability will matter.

I expect both my land and house valuation to fall as well as the
replacement cost for the house.

My per hour charges to clients will have to come down and I expect
I will pay less for labor.

Some items may become difficult to get and increase in cost.

The specifics of this trend should be clear by next fall.

This is a minimum five year adjustment. How much longer depends on
government intervention. The fedgov could cause it to drag out for
many more years.

> --
> Ed Huntress
>
>

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misc.consumers.frugal-living - 25 new messages in 14 topics - digest

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