Frugal Living: Jul 11, 2008

Friday, July 11, 2008

25 new messages in 10 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Any Good Methods for Filtering and Reusing Cooking Oil ?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/d1dc6a245c3380b7?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Jul 11 2008 1:45 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

Jeffy3 <jeffy3@hotmail.com> wrote
> W. Stief <n...@sbcglobal.net> wrote
>> Jeffy3 wrote

>>> I'm new to occasional deep-frying and everyone recommends
>>> cheese cloth or coffee filters, and I've tried to coffee filter method
>>> with a funnel but the process is so slow and the funnel only holds
>>> so much so I have to keep coming back every ten minutes to pour
>>> some more oil in. Does anybody have any good ideas ?

>> How about a piece of metal window screen folded like a funnel or basket?

> I guess what I'm asking is for methods that can handle a lot of oil at once
> without having to stand there and and keep pouring little bits at a time.

A big enough filter that will hold all the oil.

Not a shred of rocket science whatever required.

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Jul 11 2008 4:34 pm
From: "Lou"

"Jeffy3" <jeffy3@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:f2192380-32f4-4388-9dee-e319f198f031@f36g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
On Jul 11, 4:33 pm, "W. Stief" <n...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Jeffy3 wrote:
> > I'm new to occasional deep-frying and everyone recommends cheese cloth
> > or coffee filters, and I've tried to coffee filter method with a
> > funnel but the process is so slow and the funnel only holds so much so
> > I have to keep coming back every ten minutes to pour some more oil
> > in. Does anybody have any good ideas ?
>
> How about a piece of metal window screen folded like a funnel or basket?

>I guess what I'm asking is for methods that can handle a lot of oil at
>once without having to stand there and and keep pouring little bits at
>a time.

Whatever you use, make sure it's food safe - no way would I use window
screening or anything like that.

You could try getting a bigger funnel so that you could pour more/all of the
used oil into it at once, but the problem with using a funnel is that the
oil has to exit through the spout and so most of the oil will seep through
just a small part of your filter. That part of the filter will rapidly clog
and the whole process just gets slower and slower.

I think the key to speeding up the process is to increase the filter surface
area. Try something like a kitchen sieve lined with whatever you choose to
use as a filter, and let the filtered oil drip into a bowl, pot, or whatever
you have on hand that's big enough to suspend the sieve in and hold all the
oil.

The other thing is that, if you let the oil sit for a while, you'll notice
that at least some of the contaminants will settle to the bottom. Once that
happens, pour the oil off carefully so as not to dump the contaminants into
the filter. You'll miss a few spoons full of oil, but if you don't clog the
filter the whole process should go a lot quicker.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Jul 11 2008 5:29 pm
From: "Bob F"

"Lou" <lpogoda@verizon.net> wrote in message news:q6Sdk.36$6O4.33@trnddc06...
>
> "Jeffy3" <jeffy3@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:f2192380-32f4-4388-9dee-e319f198f031@f36g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
> On Jul 11, 4:33 pm, "W. Stief" <n...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> Jeffy3 wrote:
>> > I'm new to occasional deep-frying and everyone recommends cheese cloth
>> > or coffee filters, and I've tried to coffee filter method with a
>> > funnel but the process is so slow and the funnel only holds so much so
>> > I have to keep coming back every ten minutes to pour some more oil
>> > in. Does anybody have any good ideas ?
>>
>> How about a piece of metal window screen folded like a funnel or basket?
>
>>I guess what I'm asking is for methods that can handle a lot of oil at
>>once without having to stand there and and keep pouring little bits at
>>a time.
>
> Whatever you use, make sure it's food safe - no way would I use window
> screening or anything like that.
>
> You could try getting a bigger funnel so that you could pour more/all of the
> used oil into it at once, but the problem with using a funnel is that the
> oil has to exit through the spout and so most of the oil will seep through
> just a small part of your filter. That part of the filter will rapidly clog
> and the whole process just gets slower and slower.
>
> I think the key to speeding up the process is to increase the filter surface
> area. Try something like a kitchen sieve lined with whatever you choose to
> use as a filter, and let the filtered oil drip into a bowl, pot, or whatever
> you have on hand that's big enough to suspend the sieve in and hold all the
> oil.
>
> The other thing is that, if you let the oil sit for a while, you'll notice
> that at least some of the contaminants will settle to the bottom. Once that
> happens, pour the oil off carefully so as not to dump the contaminants into
> the filter. You'll miss a few spoons full of oil, but if you don't clog the
> filter the whole process should go a lot quicker.
>
>
After carefully pouring the cleaner oil through the filter, dump the dirty stuff
at the bottom in and wait, to cut down the loss.

Use some wire screen or similar to separate the filter from the side of the
funnel to increase the available filter area. Filter area pressed against a
smooth funnel surface won't pass much oil.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Which of these is best VALUE stock investment?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/785d10c890e976d3?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Jul 11 2008 2:06 pm
From: Al Bundy

On Jul 11, 9:10 am, "OhioGuy" <n...@none.net> wrote:
> I like to do value stock investments. In other words, pick things up when
> they are cheap. Recently, I invested 3/4 of my $ into 3 different stocks,
> but now I'm having a hard time deciding what stock to invest the last bit
> into.
>
> Here is what I'm considering:
>
> WOLF Great Wolf Resorts
> current price $4.37 52 wk. range $3.98 to $15.70
> indoor year round water parks and hotels
> recent expansion, built several new properties, but current
> economic climate weighs on earnings, but could easily double in the next 2-3
> years, but has higher downside risk
>
> BPL Buckeye Partners LP
> current price $40.72 52 wk. range $39.11 to $55.54
> stock has over an 8% yield
> owns a network of 5,400 miles of pipelines which it uses to transport fuels
> to terminals, airports, and other places of heavy use. Also provides
> pipeline operation, maintenance and construction services for third parties.
> Consistently profitable, but stock is currently down about 20%. With yield,
> could give 36% return over next 2 years. Not much risk.
>
> FUN Cedar Fair LP
> Current Price $16.69 52 wk. range $16.14 to $29.90
> Operates 11 amusement parks, 6 water parks, 1 indoor water park, and 5
> hotels. Flagship park is Cedar Point. Stock gives a 10% to 11% yield, and
> is currently close to its lowest point in recent years, due to current poor
> economy. May be some downside, but stock yield gives some insurance against
> inflation, and stock has potential to add 50% in a year or two.

I have not studied the specific stocks mentioned, but resorts and
amusements is a sector that may suffer badly for years. They may look
cheap now, yet they can go to 50% or 0. That 10% yield may only last
until the next board meeting.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: You are not frugal if......
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/3c5261ec65743940?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 8 ==
Date: Fri, Jul 11 2008 2:15 pm
From: "Bay Area Holdout"

1) We are a bit higher on the package but that's because my wife insisted on
getting the Texting Package. As for Internet, you didn't define dial-up or
DSL or DSL at what speed. Dial-up and lowest speed DSL are the cheapest but
because I have three Internet Users I found the slightly faster package was
required. Another $5 a month but we get free access to there Wi-Fi access
which is pretty widepread as well.
We still have a landline but minimum package. I hate the mandatory long
distance access if you have a landline but we get the barest minimum for
that and use Calling Cards.

2) Travellers Checks are free as part of our banking package but overseas
I've found the service fees and rate of exchange eats alot away, so I tend
to use credit cards for bigger meals and hotels and purchases even though
you get a rate of exchange applied there as well...no easy solution I've
been able to find so far for that.

3) Never had the gunk in the gas issues of the "off brands" and I fugure
with the all the Air Quality Controls issues in gas blending they have to be
close to the same formula or the state would be all over them.
If we get to the the typical "four corners, four gas stations" when
travelling the Interstate I do the math on the 3% rebate we get on ALL gas
purchases from AMEX. If the cents delta is small and the line is shorter, I
go to the name brand to get back on the road sooner.
And yes, I pay off my CC balance in full every month, I haven't paid CC
interest since the late '80's when the income tax deduction for it went
away. My rule, if I don't have the cash, I don't buy it.

4) We just don't do the ticket thing for some time now. Too expensive in
almost all cases.

I'll add one.......

You are not frugal if you stay at motels and don't use a AAA or AARP or
other card for discounts AND don't use the brands travel card for
points(sometimes you get free papers and room upgrades too) for free rooms
or cash cards for gas or resturants.

== 2 of 8 ==
Date: Fri, Jul 11 2008 2:23 pm
From: Jeff

Dave wrote:
>>> You pay 25 cents a gallon more at a brand name station than at no
>>> name place across the street.
>> My coworker swears that his car runs better on "name
>> brand"...personally I think he's smokin' crack. However if my car
>> develops the sludges because I didn't use Chevron with Techron...I
>> might change my tune.
>
> Depends on what name brand your coworker is using. The only difference
> I noticed is that I owned one car (a Suzuki) that ran noticeably better
> and got better fuel economy if I filled it at any Shell station. It
> wasn't a fluke, but a repeated occurrence until I noticed a pattern.
> The pattern was, if I filled up at Shell, my MPG calculated at my NEXT
> fill-up would be higher. And while the tank was full of mostly Shell,
> the car ran noticeably smoother.

I have a friend who unknowingly ran her Volvo on 3 cylinders.

It ran particularly poorly on Racetrack, OK on the name brand, and got
better mileage.

Obviously it needed all the performance it could get with the missing
cylinder and the offbrand didn't have it.

Seems to me that some gasolines may indeed be better, but under
ordinary usage, it isn't noticeable.

I wonder if you can tell how much ethanol a particular gas has.
Ethanol has a lower energy content and 10% Ethanol gives about 3% less
mileage.

Jeff
>
> OTOH, it is a well-known fact that most fuel comes from the same
> refineries. So in many cases, the brand name stuff could be the EXACT
> SAME product sold at the no-name place across the street. -Dave

== 3 of 8 ==
Date: Fri, Jul 11 2008 2:49 pm
From: George Grapman

Seerialmom wrote:
> On Jul 11, 10:14 am, George Grapman <sfgeo...@paccbell.net> wrote:
>> Seerialmom wrote:
>>> On Jul 10, 8:00 pm, William Souden <sou...@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>> You ,as an individual. pay more than $100 for landline,cell and
>>>> internet access. Find a company offering two or all three at a combo rate.
>>> Details on who currently provides all 3 for the price you're
>>> referencing, please.
>> I can not speak for the OP but I get my DSL and cell from AT&T for a
>> combined $45 a month. With a home office most of my cell usage is
>> incoming calls as I use a separate land line for outgoing calls. That
>> line is unlimited service from IDT for $35 a month. I assume that the
>> poster is not including the various fees that even those of us who work
>> in telecom do not always understand.
>>
>>
>>
>>>> You pay for travelers checks. Better to get them free at AAA or, even
>>>> better, use a debit card on trips.
>>> Wrong: AAA has partnered with Travelex** to offer Traveler Cheques.
>>> Never has traveling to Europe been easier. American Express Euro and
>>> Pounds Traveler Cheques are accepted in 12 European nations. US
>>> Traveler cheques are also available. Please note a $9.95 handling fee
>>> for US Travelers Cheques purchases
>> I do not think I have purchased travelers checks since I first got a
>> debit card. When traveling I rarely carry more than $40 on me. If I need
>> cash I numerous options:
>>
>> Go to any chain store,buy one item and get cash back.
>> My credit union is linked to network of other credit unions as well as
>> the 7/11 network with no fees for using their ATMs.
>>
> I bought traveler's cheques when I was going on a trip to Hong Kong
> about 8 years ago, but I also used my debit card. I think the
> original point of Traveler's Cheques was that back before debit cards
> were around people wrote personal checks. Outside of your local area
> many businesses wouldn't take a personal check from out of towners,
> Traveler's Cheques were the alternative (plus you didn't have to carry
> a big roll of dough).
Exactly, it eliminated the need to carry a lot of cash. I can
remember when buying them was part of pre-trip excitement. The matching
signature thing made it fairly easy but in later years more and more
places required ID.
Once I had some American Express checks lost/stolen. I called them
and a few hours later I got replacements at a local office.

== 4 of 8 ==
Date: Fri, Jul 11 2008 3:47 pm
From: val189

On Jul 10, 11:00 pm, William Souden <sou...@nospam.com> wrote:
> You ,as an individual. pay more than $100 for landline,cell and
> internet access. Find a company offering two or all three at a combo rate.

Hmm...monthly phone, cell and internet = a little over a hundred.

> You pay for travelers checks. Better to get them free at AAA or, even
> better, use a debit card on trips.

Haven't bought em in ten years. Cash, credit cards and debit cards
are what I tote outta town.
>
> You pay 25 cents a gallon more at a brand name station than at no name
> place across the street.

I go for convenience - I won't cross a busy highway to save a few
cents, which is about what it amounts to now.

== 5 of 8 ==
Date: Fri, Jul 11 2008 3:53 pm
From: val189

you pay a ten dollar 'dormant account' fee like I got slapped with
this month on a savings account I rarely use. I was told that one
year with no activity will incur the fee, so I promptly requested that
they close it out. Oh sure, I lose the ATM feature but I can live
without it. (Have other bank accounts with debit and ATM privileges.)
Must remember to destroy that card.....

Also not frugal is to let money accumulate in a low interest account.
I still know ppl who have over a hundred thou sitting in checking.

== 6 of 8 ==
Date: Fri, Jul 11 2008 5:09 pm
From: Seerialmom

On Jul 11, 3:53 pm, val189 <gwehr...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> you pay a ten dollar 'dormant account' fee like I got slapped with
> this month on a savings account I rarely use. I was told that one
> year with no activity will incur the fee, so I promptly requested that
> they close it out. Oh sure, I lose the ATM feature but I can live
> without it. (Have other bank accounts with debit and ATM privileges.)
> Must remember to destroy that card.....
>
> Also not frugal is to let money accumulate in a low interest account.
> I still know ppl who have over a hundred thou sitting in checking.

Worse than getting a fee slapped on your account, how about those
states that have the account marked as "abandoned" and you have to
reclaim it from the state treasurer?

See answers here (for our Canadian friends and others outside of the
US, your terms may be different):

http://www.helpwithmybank.gov/faqs/banking_inactive.html

== 7 of 8 ==
Date: Fri, Jul 11 2008 5:15 pm
From: sarge137

On Jul 10, 9:00 pm, William Souden <sou...@nospam.com> wrote:
> You ,as an individual. pay more than $100 for landline,cell and
> internet access. Find a company offering two or all three at a combo rate.

I pay just over $150.00 (regular price not introductory) for which I
get:

1. Landline telephone service, w/caller ID, call forwarding, and
voice mail..
2. TWO cell phones.
3. 550 mins/mo combined on the cell phones, and unlimited domestic
long distance on all three.
4. 1.3Mb/s DSL internet access.
5. DirecTV Choice Extra package (pretty much everything except movie
channels) w/HD & DVR.

1, 4, and 5 are bundled with my local phone company.
2 and 3 are a combination of two special packages with Sprint that
I've had for years.
My wife uses her cell phone for work and gets a $40 monthly allowance
from her employer.

> You pay for travelers checks. Better to get them free at AAA or, even
> better, use a debit card on trips.

Haven't used checks travelers checks, or checks of any kind for that
matter, in twenty years. When I travel I carry a debit card, a credit
card, and less than than $100.00 cash for incidentals. I don't
travel internationally anymore so I don't worry about currency
conversion.

> You pay 25 cents a gallon more at a brand name station than at no name
> place across the street.

Except for a few stations near the interstate, which locals don't go
near, there isn't a ten cent difference in price at any gas station
within a ten mile radius of where I live. I have no brand preference
or loyalty, so I buy gas where I am when I need it.

> You pay an extra fee for concert and sporting events which have you go
> to Will Call when you can print the tickets at home.

None of the venues in my area make service charges for tickets unless
you want them mailed. Pick'em up at will call on or before the date
of the event and there' s no service charge. I always buy event
tickets directly from the venue, by phone or on-line, never from an
agency or broker. If they can only be had that way, I don't go.

== 8 of 8 ==
Date: Fri, Jul 11 2008 8:09 pm
From: "Nicik Name"

"William Souden" <souden@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:30Adk.17488$Ri.5074@flpi146.ffdc.sbc.com...
> You ,as an individual. pay more than $100 for landline,cell and
> internet access. Find a company offering two or all three at a combo rate.
>
> You pay for travelers checks. Better to get them free at AAA or, even
> better, use a debit card on trips.
>
> You pay 25 cents a gallon more at a brand name station than at no name
> place across the street.
Where..........?
I have a Shell at 4.539 here with a no name no where near..........
>
> You pay an extra fee for concert and sporting events which have you go to
> Will Call when you can print the tickets at home.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Subscribed to the paper --- Was this frugal??
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/492a471c6c732495?hl=en
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== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Jul 11 2008 2:59 pm
From: Samantha Hill - remove TRASH to reply

Being frugal is not about penny-pinching on everything to the point of
being a miser. Being frugal is about not spending any more money than
necessary on things that are not a priority for you in order that you
have more money to spend on the things that are important to you. Those
things will undoubtedly be different for each person.

If you get a lot of joy out of reading a hard copy of the newspaper and
there are coupons you can use to boot, it is a priority item for you and
you made a wise purchase.

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Jul 11 2008 3:43 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

Samantha Hill - remove TRASH to reply <samhill@TRASHsonic.net> wrote:
> Being frugal is not about penny-pinching on everything to the point of
> being a miser. Being frugal is about not spending any more money
> than necessary on things that are not a priority for you in order
> that you have more money to spend on the things that are important to
> you. Those things will undoubtedly be different for each person.

> If you get a lot of joy out of reading a hard copy of the newspaper

The OP clearly doesnt.

> and there are coupons you can use to boot, it is a priority item for you and you made a wise purchase.

Not if it makes no sense economically.

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Jul 11 2008 6:10 pm
From: William Souden

The free online versions of major dailies only carry a fraction of
the stories in the print editions.

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Jul 11 2008 6:49 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

William Souden <souden@nospam.com> wrote:

> The free online versions of major dailies only carry a fraction of the stories in the print editions.

That may be all the news he wants when he doesnt bother to buy every issue currently.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: The chickens have arrived
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/1b34814faaccbf44?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Jul 11 2008 3:14 pm
From: Seerialmom

On Jul 11, 7:16 am, hchick...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Jul 2008 22:00:45 -0500, barbie gee <boo...@nosespam.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> >On Thu, 10 Jul 2008, hchick...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> >> I've been constructing a chicken tractor today. This first one is
> >> taking a surprising amount of time to design and build, since I'm
> >> partly working out design issues as I build, and I've been doing lap
> >> joints without the proper tools. I'm trying to keep construction
> >> materials cost as low as possible without resorting to scrap wood. I
> >> have hopes that I'll be able to make up a set of plans, or even market
> >> kits or complete units to folks in the general area.
>
> >so what's a chicken tractor, anyway?
>
> We make chickens work out here. I want to have them haying by fall.
>
> Think cage and housing without floor. Instead of moving the buildup
> of poop and litter, you move the cage. Within a short period, the
> land is just a little more fertile, and the chickens have fresh
> pickins.

So basically you're saying you have a rolling fertilizer machine?

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Jul 11 2008 7:40 pm
From: hchickpea@hotmail.com

On Fri, 11 Jul 2008 15:14:08 -0700 (PDT), Seerialmom
<seerialmom@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Jul 11, 7:16?am, hchick...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> On Thu, 10 Jul 2008 22:00:45 -0500, barbie gee <boo...@nosespam.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> >On Thu, 10 Jul 2008, hchick...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>
>> >> I've been constructing a chicken tractor today. ?This first one is
>> >> taking a surprising amount of time to design and build, since I'm
>> >> partly working out design issues as I build, and I've been doing lap
>> >> joints without the proper tools. ?I'm trying to keep construction
>> >> materials cost as low as possible without resorting to scrap wood. ?I
>> >> have hopes that I'll be able to make up a set of plans, or even market
>> >> kits or complete units to folks in the general area.
>>
>> >so what's a chicken tractor, anyway?
>>
>> We make chickens work out here. ?I want to have them haying by fall.
>>
>> Think cage and housing without floor. ?Instead of moving the buildup
>> of poop and litter, you move the cage. ?Within a short period, the
>> land is just a little more fertile, and the chickens have fresh
>> pickins.
>
>So basically you're saying you have a rolling fertilizer machine?

More like a combination tiller fertilizer machine. Chickens dig into
the ground for nutritious snacks and to create dust baths. They are
looking a little cleaner today because of their dusting themselves.
They also eat like pigs.

I filled up two trays this morning and gave some scratch, and I had to
do the same this evening. I've also got to make a stand for their
water. They manage to poop in it somehow.

Two of the big ones will be going to freezer camp in a couple of days.
One has a leg problem, and the other is overly aggressive. That
should take some pressure off the underachievers and slow the feed
inhalation just a bit.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Donating blood
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/51be6adc7412e820?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Jul 11 2008 3:25 pm
From: val189

On Jul 6, 12:27 am, hchick...@hotmail.com wrote:

> Last time I checked, those weren't related...

I didn't mean to imply that they were. Next time, I'll type in
'Subject change'. I thought a new paragraph was enough. Oh, the
pitfalls of the written word....

==============================================================================
TOPIC: How to make money in the stock market
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/0caf6f9b78ec51eb?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Jul 11 2008 3:30 pm
From: RABBIT

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==============================================================================
TOPIC: How much does AC cost you?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/cdcf4b45a8aaec43?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Jul 11 2008 5:17 pm
From: "Lou"

"clams_casino" <PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote in message
news:tnJdk.17967$3q7.6807@newsfe15.lga...
> James wrote:
>
> >On Jul 11, 7:01 am, clams_casino <PeterGrif...@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>James wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>I get 30 mpg not using AC but only 25 mpg with it on.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>That's contrary to any study I've read, unless perhaps you are driving
> >>with your windows closed. Any references?
> >>
> >>At best, I see a 15% variation in tank-to-tank mileage, quite
> >>consistently throughout the year. I've also found no significant
> >>differences comparing spring, fall, winter & summer gas mileage.
> >>
> >>Consequently, I'm reluctant to believe there is any significant
> >>difference.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Well, 30 less 15% is about 25.
> >
> >
> >
>
> 15% is the maximum variation I've seen over 110k on one car and 85k on
> the other - more likely variations due to how much the tank was filled /
> type of driving during any particular tank (city vs. hwy).
>
> As previously mentioned, I have also compared fall, winter, summer &
> spring mileage with essentially no significant differences (less than
> 1/2 mile).
>
> I highly doubt there is much difference w/wo air.
>
>
>
> "In Edmunds.com's test, conducted at a steady 65 miles per hour,
> "windows down" or "A/C on" made virtually no difference in mileage."
>
> "Basically, the extra fuel used by the air conditioner is made up for in
> improved aerodynamics at high speeds (vs.windows down). Your not really
> saving any fuel but, at least on the highway, the A/C isn't costing you
> appreciably either."

That doesn't accord with my experience. A few years ago I had a grueling
commute for a couple of years - about 60 miles each way, part of the trip
through downtown Philadelphia, some on the traffic clogged expressway - you
could count on a couple miles of inching through traffic as well as coming
to a full stop at least a couple of times on the expressway. My car had one
of those gadgets that told you both the instantaneous mileage and the
average mileage since the last reset, and I reset it each week when I bought
gas.

For what it's worth, the average mileage reported by the gadget tended to
differ from the mileage I'd compute using the miles from the odometer and
the gallons read from the gas pump at the service station. Sometime my
computed mileage would be higher, but more often it was lower. On average
I'd estimate that the gadget read 9-10% high.

Anyway, according to that gadget, on weeks when I used air conditioning, my
mileage would be anywhere from 5 to 10 miles per gallon less than it was on
weeks when I didn't use the air.

But it's hard to tell. I have a newer version of the same car, a different
commute (only 40 miles now, and in a different direction). Over the last
month, my weekly mileage as computed from the odometer and the reading on
the gas pump has varied from a low of just over 32 to a high of over 37.
For the most part, I'm not using the air - I think I've had it on twice this
summer. But the point is that at least some of the variation appears to be
due to how the attendant fills the tank (no self-service gas in New Jersey).
When I was paying by credit card, they'd let the pump run until it shut off,
then usually but not always give it a little more until it shut off again.
But lately, I'm paying cash (10 cents a gallon cheaper), and they let it run
until it shuts off, then try to get enough more in to make the sale a whole
dollar amount - easier to make change. So sometimes they don't put much
more in, and other times they baby it along as though they were using an eye
dropper. Though interestingly enough, the week I got the 37+ mpg was a week
when they appeared to squeeze in as much as they could.

I've yet to see a credible test that compared the real effect of driving at
highway speeds and using the air with windows closed and not using the air
with windows open. The new EPA tests supposedly take air conditioning into
account, but since cars are tested on a dynamometer they're not subject to
wind resistance. Supposedly the resistance of the rollers can be adjusted
to simulate hills and wind, but calculating how much to vary the resistance
involves so many assumptions and approximations that I don't really trust
the results. My wife drives a similar car (same make/model, different trim
level and a year older) and she uses the air all the time. Her mileage is
in the low to mid twenties most weeks, but her driving style is very
different from mine.

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Jul 11 2008 5:22 pm
From: "Lou"

"Jeff" <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote in message
news:vbudnXfHz5mr8-rVnZ2dnUVZ_h3inZ2d@earthlink.com...
> clams_casino wrote:
> > James wrote:
> >
> >> On Jul 11, 7:01 am, clams_casino <PeterGrif...@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>> James wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> I get 30 mpg not using AC but only 25 mpg with it on.
> >>>>
> >>> That's contrary to any study I've read, unless perhaps you are driving
> >>> with your windows closed. Any references?
> >>>
> >>> At best, I see a 15% variation in tank-to-tank mileage, quite
> >>> consistently throughout the year. I've also found no significant
> >>> differences comparing spring, fall, winter & summer gas mileage.
> >>>
> >>> Consequently, I'm reluctant to believe there is any significant
> >>> difference.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Well, 30 less 15% is about 25.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> > 15% is the maximum variation I've seen over 110k on one car and 85k on
> > the other - more likely variations due to how much the tank was filled /
> > type of driving during any particular tank (city vs. hwy).
> >
> > As previously mentioned, I have also compared fall, winter, summer &
> > spring mileage with essentially no significant differences (less than
> > 1/2 mile).
> >
> > I highly doubt there is much difference w/wo air.
>
> I see no difference myself. I have an instantaneous mileage gauge.

I've had an instantaneous mileage guage on three cars. I don't see how it
helps answer the question - the instantaneous mileage changes constantly
with the slope of the road - a swing of 50 miles per gallon in a couple of
seconds isn't rate, and changes for 5 to 20 mpg happen almost every 2
seconds (that how often the display updates). I don't think I've ever
driven as much as a mile with a constant instantaneous mileage, even though
sourthern New Jersey is pretty flat.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Jul 11 2008 5:39 pm
From: "Bob F"

"James" <j0069bond@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:b1c2636b-8b49-4146-a8e8-076c42c35e38@a70g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
On Jul 11, 7:01 am, clams_casino <PeterGrif...@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:
> James wrote:
> >I get 30 mpg not using AC but only 25 mpg with it on.
>
> That's contrary to any study I've read, unless perhaps you are driving
> with your windows closed. Any references?
>
> At best, I see a 15% variation in tank-to-tank mileage, quite
> consistently throughout the year. I've also found no significant
> differences comparing spring, fall, winter & summer gas mileage.
>
> Consequently, I'm reluctant to believe there is any significant
> difference.

Well, 30 less 15% is about 25.

BTW I also notice a lot less power with the AC on so I have to shift
gears differently.

**************************************************************

With my nissan van, I frequently will turn off the A/C when climbing long hills.
It makes a significant difference in the ability to hold speed. Opening the
windows has no such noticable effect. The owners manual does claim that opening
the windows is worse for mileage, but the evidence says otherwise.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Designer Fendi B Medium Bag - Coffee 2255 Coffee/ Handbags, Luxury,
Best,Inspired
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/e692deaed642d901?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Jul 11 2008 7:55 pm
From: blog581@watchesblog.cn

Designer Fendi B Medium Bag - Coffee 2255 Coffee/ Handbags, Luxury,
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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Designer Coach Soho Signature Satchel - Coffee 10078 coffee Handbags,
Luxury, Best,Inspired
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/d608798c6df7fec3?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Jul 11 2008 7:56 pm
From: blog581@watchesblog.cn

Designer Coach Soho Signature Satchel - Coffee 10078 coffee Handbags,
Luxury, Best,Inspired

Designer Handbags : http://www.bagsbrand.com

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Coach Soho Signature Satchel - Coffee 10078 coffee :

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==============================================================================

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26 new messages in 9 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: jordan shoes and much popular cloths ,sports shoes only 27 usd
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/7b929e590d26f7eb?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Jul 11 2008 7:11 am
From: "www.yhnetstore.com"

Dear friend
When your all order form volume of trade accumulation achieves
above $500, our company will bestow an independent website to give you
for free. Manages by you, you may put the price on the homepage at
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Then propagandize, for instance promotes your website on Google or
B2B. When has the customer make order with your website, you may send
the order form to me, we will delivers goods directly to your
customer. So long as you send yours customer address to me. We will
deliver goods in 1-2 days, all goods will arrive in 5-7 days.
You may choose pay in advance every month $500 give us, when after
completing each time the order form, we will deduct from $500 are
corresponding in our website the quoted price money, certainly, in
your website's quoted price must be higher than our company's quoted
price. You may also choose before we delivers goods to your customer,
put the corresponding money send to us. Certainly, like this will
lengthen the business the time, we hoped that your customer can
receive the goods in such a short time.
If in first three months each month's all order money (including
yours order form and your customer order form) not above $500 , Or
from the fourth month each month's business money cannot achieve $800,
we are authorized to cancel your website.
Wishes us cooperates happily!

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Surviving high heating oil prices
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/a184bef53e828bc7?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Jul 11 2008 7:17 am
From: zekfrivo@zekfrivolous.com (GregS)

In article <MPG.22e123dbff71726b989e7e@news.individual.net>, krw <krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzz> wrote:
>In article <g57jos$d36$2@usenet01.srv.cis.pitt.edu>,
>zekfrivo@zekfrivolous.com says...
>> In article <MPG.22e067da4eb0bb1e989e77@news.individual.net>, krw
> <krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzz> wrote:
>> >In article <g54uji$nkv$1@usenet01.srv.cis.pitt.edu>,
>> >zekfrivo@zekfrivolous.com says...
>> >> In article <MPG.22df1c1ee7abf69f989e70@news.individual.net>, krw
>> > <krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzz> wrote:
>> >> >In article <g52fmu$u9q$1@aioe.org>, tmclone@searchmachine.com
>> >> >says...
>> >> >>
>> >> >> <hchickpea@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> >> >> news:33i974tg8ojk98l0l343fnj8iravfqutmg@4ax.com...
>> >> >> > On Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:50:07 -0400, "JonquilJan" <ward39@imcnet.net>
>> >> >> > wrote:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >>There was one home about half a mile from me - where it was tried to
>> >> >> >>insulate. Once they took off the outer shell, there was a frame of
> very
>> >> >> >>large hand hewn (could see the ax marks) beans - filled in with
> bricks
>> >> >> >>and
>> >> >> >>mortar between.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> Everything in my house was hand hewn. The home inspector who did the
>> > report
>> >> >> before I bought the place thought the joists weren't real wood because
>> > they
>> >> >> were "misshapen and just way too big" (his words). When I pointed out
> that
>> >
>> >> >> the house was nearly 200 years old, he then assumed that the wood would
> be
>> >
>> >> >> rotten. He was extremely surprised that everything in the house was
> just
>> >> >> fine. He commented that the house was "better built than anything
> they're
>> >> >> making now". Well, yeah, since my house was built to last, not to
> current
>> >> >> "code". 24" on center. Are they crazy? Everything in my house is 12-15"
> on
>> >
>> >> >> center, and 4x4, not 2x4. Hardwood floors over diagonally laid tongue
> and
>> >> >> groove subfloor over wide plank pine. An elephant could jump up and
> down
>> > on
>> >> >> my floors and you'd never feel it. I would never live in a "new" house.
>
>> >> >
>> >> >I would bet that a "properly built" house today will use a lot less
>> >> >heat than yours. 2x6s 24" on center construction is certainly
>> >> >better than 2x4s on 16" centers, and even somewhat better than 2x6s
>> >> >16" on center. Wood is a pretty poor insulator.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> 1 inch of dry wood = R1.
>> >
>> >Yes, pretty damned poor.
>> >
>> >> 2 inches = R2
>> >
>> >Rather obvious.
>>
>> Put a reflective surface on that and you can add 1.5. Sometimes a reflective
>> surface can be much more than R 1.5 depending if there are really hot
>> areas involved, or high differentials.
>
>Not that it has anything to do with the issue at hand, but this is
>simply wrong. The reflective barrier will not keep heat in; zero R
>value. It will *reflect* IR radiation and is useful in areas with
>lots of sun, but it adds zero to the R value.
>

Tell that to the people who label their foam products at the home stores.
The reflective factor is added to the R value.
The reflective surface also inhibits radiation as well as reflecting radiation.

greg

== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Jul 11 2008 7:23 am
From: zekfrivo@zekfrivolous.com (GregS)

In article <g57q21$ekg$1@usenet01.srv.cis.pitt.edu>, zekfrivo@zekfrivolous.com (GregS) wrote:
>In article <MPG.22e123dbff71726b989e7e@news.individual.net>, krw
> <krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzz> wrote:
>>In article <g57jos$d36$2@usenet01.srv.cis.pitt.edu>,
>>zekfrivo@zekfrivolous.com says...
>>> In article <MPG.22e067da4eb0bb1e989e77@news.individual.net>, krw
>> <krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzz> wrote:
>>> >In article <g54uji$nkv$1@usenet01.srv.cis.pitt.edu>,
>>> >zekfrivo@zekfrivolous.com says...
>>> >> In article <MPG.22df1c1ee7abf69f989e70@news.individual.net>, krw
>>> > <krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzz> wrote:
>>> >> >In article <g52fmu$u9q$1@aioe.org>, tmclone@searchmachine.com
>>> >> >says...
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> <hchickpea@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>> >> >> news:33i974tg8ojk98l0l343fnj8iravfqutmg@4ax.com...
>>> >> >> > On Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:50:07 -0400, "JonquilJan" <ward39@imcnet.net>
>>> >> >> > wrote:
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> >>There was one home about half a mile from me - where it was tried to
>>> >> >> >>insulate. Once they took off the outer shell, there was a frame of
>> very
>>> >> >> >>large hand hewn (could see the ax marks) beans - filled in with
>> bricks
>>> >> >> >>and
>>> >> >> >>mortar between.
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> Everything in my house was hand hewn. The home inspector who did the
>>> > report
>>> >> >> before I bought the place thought the joists weren't real wood because
>>> > they
>>> >> >> were "misshapen and just way too big" (his words). When I pointed out
>> that
>>> >
>>> >> >> the house was nearly 200 years old, he then assumed that the wood
> would
>> be
>>> >
>>> >> >> rotten. He was extremely surprised that everything in the house was
>> just
>>> >> >> fine. He commented that the house was "better built than anything
>> they're
>>> >> >> making now". Well, yeah, since my house was built to last, not to
>> current
>>> >> >> "code". 24" on center. Are they crazy? Everything in my house is
> 12-15"
>> on
>>> >
>>> >> >> center, and 4x4, not 2x4. Hardwood floors over diagonally laid tongue
>> and
>>> >> >> groove subfloor over wide plank pine. An elephant could jump up and
>> down
>>> > on
>>> >> >> my floors and you'd never feel it. I would never live in a "new"
> house.
>>
>>> >> >
>>> >> >I would bet that a "properly built" house today will use a lot less
>>> >> >heat than yours. 2x6s 24" on center construction is certainly
>>> >> >better than 2x4s on 16" centers, and even somewhat better than 2x6s
>>> >> >16" on center. Wood is a pretty poor insulator.
>>> >> >
>>> >>
>>> >> 1 inch of dry wood = R1.
>>> >
>>> >Yes, pretty damned poor.
>>> >
>>> >> 2 inches = R2
>>> >
>>> >Rather obvious.
>>>
>>> Put a reflective surface on that and you can add 1.5. Sometimes a reflective
>>> surface can be much more than R 1.5 depending if there are really hot
>>> areas involved, or high differentials.
>>
>>Not that it has anything to do with the issue at hand, but this is
>>simply wrong. The reflective barrier will not keep heat in; zero R
>>value. It will *reflect* IR radiation and is useful in areas with
>>lots of sun, but it adds zero to the R value.
>>
>
>Tell that to the people who label their foam products at the home stores.
>The reflective factor is added to the R value.
>The reflective surface also inhibits radiation as well as reflecting radiation.

A reflective surface needs open space for it to reflect. If there is no space
its worthless. On a building here, they specified foil backed drywall
for RF interference. This is also mold proof, and I don't know why its not
usually seen at the home buiding stores, and of course can add some
R value if used in that way.

greg

== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Jul 11 2008 10:07 am
From: nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu

krw <krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzz> wrote:

>... The reflective barrier will not keep heat in; zero R value.
>It will *reflect* IR radiation and is useful in areas with
>lots of sun, but it adds zero to the R value.

Wrong.

Here's one way to estimate the R-value of a radiant barrier based on the air
gap and the emissivities and surface temps and the direction of heatflow from

http://www.reflectixinc.com/pdf/RIMA_Handbook.pdf

10 DIM HC(18,6)
20 DATA 0.359,0.184,0.126,0.097,0.080,0.068
30 DATA 0.361,0.187,0.129,0.100,0.082,0.072
40 DATA 0.363,0.189,0.131,0.101,0.085,0.075
50 DATA 0.364,0.190,0.132,0.103,0.087,0.078
60 DATA 0.365,0.191,0.133,0.105,0.090,0.081
70 DATA 0.366,0.192,0.134,0.106,0.092,0.082
80 DATA 0.360,0.204,0.169,0.179,0.185,0.189
90 DATA 0.366,0.267,0.223,0.233,0.238,0.241
100 DATA 0.373,0.247,0.261,0.271,0.275,0.276
110 DATA 0.380,0.270,0.292,0.301,0.303,0.303
120 DATA 0.387,0.296,0.317,0.325,0.327,0.326
130 DATA 0.394,0.319,0.339,0.347,0.347,0.345
140 DATA 0.381,0.312,0.295,0.284,0.275,0.268
150 DATA 0.429,0.381,0.360,0.346,0.336,0.328
160 DATA 0.472,0.428,0.405,0.389,0.377,0.368
170 DATA 0.511,0.465,0.440,0.423,0.410,0.400
180 DATA 0.545,0.496,0.469,0.451,0.437,0.426
190 DATA 0.574,0.523,0.494,0.475,0.460,0.449
200 FOR I=1 TO 18'read data table
210 FOR J=1 TO 6
220 READ HC(I,J)
230 NEXT:NEXT
240 T1=105'temperature of surface 1 (F)
250 E1=.03'emissivity of surface 1
260 T2=75'temperature of surface 2 (F)
270 E2=.8'emissivity of surface 2
280 L=2'air gap (valid range: 0.5-3")
290 LI=INT(2*L+.5)'length table index
300 HF=0'heatflow 0-down,1-sideways,2-up
310 E=1/(1/E1+1/E2-1)'effective emittance
320 TM=(T1+T2)/2'mean temp (F)
330 DT=ABS(T1-T2)'temp diff (valid range: 5-30 F)
340 DTI=INT(DT/5+.5+6*HF)'temp diff table index
350 HR=.00686*((TM+459.7)/100)^3'radiant conductance
360 R=1/(E*HR+HC(DTI,LI))'US R-value (ft^2-F-h/Btu)
370 PRINT T1,E1,T2,E2
380 PRINT L,HF,R

T1 (F) E1 T2 (F) E2

105 .03 75 .8

gap heatflow US R-value

2" 0 (down) 7.146456

With more than one space in series (eg double-foil foamboard spaced away
from a basement wall), we can't just add R-values. We only know the overall
temp diff, so we have to iterate to find a solution. Estimating the system
R-value of a radiant barrier as installed is fairly complicated, so it's no
surprise that the FTC prohibits makers from advertising R-values for radiant
barriers to avoid confusing the public.

Nick

== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Jul 11 2008 10:13 am
From: nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu

GregS <zekfrivo@zekfrivolous.com> wrote:

>Tell that to the people who label their foam products at the home stores.
>The reflective factor is added to the R value.

No, it is not. Double-foil foamboard labeled "R7.2" is closer to R11 if
it has air gaps on both sides.

Nick

== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Jul 11 2008 12:59 pm
From: krw

In article <g5840u$j8t@acadia.ece.villanova.edu>,
nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu says...
> krw <krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzz> wrote:
>
> >... The reflective barrier will not keep heat in; zero R value.
> >It will *reflect* IR radiation and is useful in areas with
> >lots of sun, but it adds zero to the R value.
>
> Wrong.

Not wrong. Foil does nothing to "resist" the conduction of heat
therefor has no "R" value. It will REFLECT radiated heat, but do
ZERO for conducted heat.

> Here's one way to estimate the R-value of a radiant barrier based on the air
> gap and the emissivities and surface temps and the direction of heatflow from
> http://www.reflectixinc.com/pdf/RIMA_Handbook.pdf

Estimate. Whoopie.

> 10 DIM HC(18,6)
> 20 DATA 0.359,0.184,0.126,0.097,0.080,0.068
> 30 DATA 0.361,0.187,0.129,0.100,0.082,0.072
> 40 DATA 0.363,0.189,0.131,0.101,0.085,0.075
> 50 DATA 0.364,0.190,0.132,0.103,0.087,0.078
> 60 DATA 0.365,0.191,0.133,0.105,0.090,0.081
> 70 DATA 0.366,0.192,0.134,0.106,0.092,0.082
> 80 DATA 0.360,0.204,0.169,0.179,0.185,0.189
> 90 DATA 0.366,0.267,0.223,0.233,0.238,0.241
> 100 DATA 0.373,0.247,0.261,0.271,0.275,0.276
> 110 DATA 0.380,0.270,0.292,0.301,0.303,0.303
> 120 DATA 0.387,0.296,0.317,0.325,0.327,0.326
> 130 DATA 0.394,0.319,0.339,0.347,0.347,0.345
> 140 DATA 0.381,0.312,0.295,0.284,0.275,0.268
> 150 DATA 0.429,0.381,0.360,0.346,0.336,0.328
> 160 DATA 0.472,0.428,0.405,0.389,0.377,0.368
> 170 DATA 0.511,0.465,0.440,0.423,0.410,0.400
> 180 DATA 0.545,0.496,0.469,0.451,0.437,0.426
> 190 DATA 0.574,0.523,0.494,0.475,0.460,0.449
> 200 FOR I=1 TO 18'read data table
> 210 FOR J=1 TO 6
> 220 READ HC(I,J)
> 230 NEXT:NEXT
> 240 T1=105'temperature of surface 1 (F)
> 250 E1=.03'emissivity of surface 1
> 260 T2=75'temperature of surface 2 (F)
> 270 E2=.8'emissivity of surface 2
> 280 L=2'air gap (valid range: 0.5-3")
> 290 LI=INT(2*L+.5)'length table index
> 300 HF=0'heatflow 0-down,1-sideways,2-up
> 310 E=1/(1/E1+1/E2-1)'effective emittance
> 320 TM=(T1+T2)/2'mean temp (F)
> 330 DT=ABS(T1-T2)'temp diff (valid range: 5-30 F)
> 340 DTI=INT(DT/5+.5+6*HF)'temp diff table index
> 350 HR=.00686*((TM+459.7)/100)^3'radiant conductance
> 360 R=1/(E*HR+HC(DTI,LI))'US R-value (ft^2-F-h/Btu)
> 370 PRINT T1,E1,T2,E2
> 380 PRINT L,HF,R
>
> T1 (F) E1 T2 (F) E2
>
> 105 .03 75 .8
>
> gap heatflow US R-value
>
> 2" 0 (down) 7.146456
>
> With more than one space in series (eg double-foil foamboard spaced away
> from a basement wall), we can't just add R-values. We only know the overall
> temp diff, so we have to iterate to find a solution. Estimating the system
> R-value of a radiant barrier as installed is fairly complicated, so it's no
> surprise that the FTC prohibits makers from advertising R-values for radiant
> barriers to avoid confusing the public.

Weasel words that say foil has no 'R' value.

--
Keith

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Jul 11 2008 7:29 am
From: Jeff

clams_casino wrote:
> James wrote:
>
>> On Jul 11, 7:01 am, clams_casino <PeterGrif...@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> James wrote:
>>>
>>>> I get 30 mpg not using AC but only 25 mpg with it on.
>>>>
>>> That's contrary to any study I've read, unless perhaps you are driving
>>> with your windows closed. Any references?
>>>
>>> At best, I see a 15% variation in tank-to-tank mileage, quite
>>> consistently throughout the year. I've also found no significant
>>> differences comparing spring, fall, winter & summer gas mileage.
>>>
>>> Consequently, I'm reluctant to believe there is any significant
>>> difference.
>>>
>>
>> Well, 30 less 15% is about 25.
>>
>>
>>
>
> 15% is the maximum variation I've seen over 110k on one car and 85k on
> the other - more likely variations due to how much the tank was filled /
> type of driving during any particular tank (city vs. hwy).
>
> As previously mentioned, I have also compared fall, winter, summer &
> spring mileage with essentially no significant differences (less than
> 1/2 mile).
>
> I highly doubt there is much difference w/wo air.

I see no difference myself. I have an instantaneous mileage gauge.

But all this will vary depending on the car and the way it is driven.

A small engine will need proportionately more of it's power to run the
AC. Car ACs are different also.

As far as power, many, if not most cars, cut off the AC when max power
is required. Your car appears to be different.

I'd say that a lot of fuel economy is lost while waiting in a parked
car. On a hot day, the temptation to leave the car running with it's AC
on is great!
>
>
>
> "In Edmunds.com's test, conducted at a steady 65 miles per hour,
> "windows down" or "A/C on" made virtually no difference in mileage."
>
> "Basically, the extra fuel used by the air conditioner is made up for in
> improved aerodynamics at high speeds (vs.windows down). Your not really
> saving any fuel but, at least on the highway, the A/C isn't costing you
> appreciably either."

Everything I've read is along those lines.

Jeff

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Jul 11 2008 9:04 am
From: Seerialmom

On Jul 10, 10:02 pm, "DemoDisk" <pack...@nospam.com> wrote:
> Our metropolitan area has just one major local newspaper which I buy on
> Friday, Sunday, and maybe one or two other days. It's reputation isn't
> good, but there are sales ads, the free TV guide, coupons, etc.
>
> Today, they offered it for 3, 6, or 12 months at $10/month, so I
> subscribed for their deal's maximum 2 years for $240. I figure that
> it's money I would have spent anyway for fewer papers and more hassle
> going out for it (and paying 50¢ or $1.50 for the Sunday).
>
> Still, the up-front outlay is a lot for me at this time, so I was
> wondering... Do you think it was the right choice?
>
> JPM

Now if you were walking to the corner store to buy those papers
before, you've just lost some exercise time. If you only wanted the
sale ads, a more frugal approach would be to drop into a BK or Denny's
after the breakfast rush, people usually leave the newspaper behind.
That said, I do subscribe to our local paper and have for many years
and for the same reasons you mentioned. However I don't prepay that
far in advance (but I do take Time up on their offer of the magazine
when I get the "Professional" rate). Whether it was the right choice
for you, only you know. To me it sounds like you're suffering buyers
remorse.

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Jul 11 2008 9:51 am
From: art.shapiro@unisys.com (Arthur Shapiro)

In article <7Lidndt_r43zdOvVnZ2dnUVZ_tDinZ2d@yournetplus.com>, "DemoDisk" <packrat@nospam.com> wrote:
Do you think it was the right choice?

I'd say ten bucks a month for a newspaper of adequate quality is a fine deal.

I'm paying $38.60 every six weeks for the Los Angeles Times, which is getting
ever smaller and more parochial. It used to be a world-class paper. Your
expenditure strikes me as quite intelligent.

Art

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Jul 11 2008 1:42 pm
From: "Bay Area Holdout"

Makes perfect sense but as mentioned depends on content of paper. If you
read it reguallly and enjoy it then makes sense. Downside is if you move or
something happens to the paper like the content going to an end of a
political spectrum you don't like or going out of business(not allthat
unheard of in the next few years I think) are allowed a pro-rated refund of
the unused portion?

Our local is shrinking all the time after it's recent sale and showing a
political "tilt" we don't always agree with. So we've moved away from daily
reading and get a Sunday paper($1.00) every other week or so.

On a pure dollars and cents rule, I've found that most weekly ad's of major
stores can now be accessed via the Web and with your Zip Code you get the
exact same ad paperless and coupons can be printed out if they strike your
interest. Local grocery stores and other stores typically send us ads with
our mail once a week as well.
Additional advantage is that if you enroll online to get the ads sent to
you, you get additional coupons and discounts as well. Many don't like the
email spam factor but I browse and delete and easier than having a bunch of
newsper around to recycle.

As for smaller local stores, the freebie papers have plenty of discount
coupons for local resturants and such. Their rates are cheaper and doubtful
they would be in the local paper.

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Jul 11 2008 9:09 am
From: The Real Bev

hchickpea@hotmail.com wrote:

> People die. I once had the wife of a janitor accuse me of killing her
> husband by asking him to do his job. He happened to die of a coronary
> within a month of my supervising him.

Is "supervising" like "counseling heavily about the head and shoulders"?

--
Cheers, Bev
-------------------------------------------------------------------
"There is nothing wrong with it and I didn't do it and, my gosh,
well I guess I just remembered I did...sort of...but it wasn't my
fault...because my staff didn't tell me...and I was very busy
meditating on the issues and besides I thought I was in Cleveland."
-- Meg Greenfield

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Jul 11 2008 9:28 am
From: Seerialmom

On Jul 5, 9:27 pm, hchick...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Wed, 2 Jul 2008 10:31:07 -0700 (PDT), val189
>
> <gwehr...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> > Ever thought about your psa score?
>
> >Let me remind you of a friend who also boasted that he hadn't been to
> >a doctor in 25 years - and died in bed one night - coronary - widow
> >still angry that he might have prevented his untimely death.
>
> Last time I checked, those weren't related...
>
> People die. I once had the wife of a janitor accuse me of killing her
> husband by asking him to do his job. He happened to die of a coronary
> within a month of my supervising him.

Not that I agree with the wife of a janitor, but there are "some"
people who assign their stress issues to those around them (rather
than taking responsibility for their own reactions...of which stress
is one). Sometimes you can't prevent the reaction, it just
happens..like when a blood vessel in my eye burst because I was trying
to listen to a conference call and coworkers were making snide remarks
about the speaker (with their mute button on, of course). I could
feel my frustration rising but didn't know that happened until I
walked into the restroom later.

== 1 of 7 ==
Date: Fri, Jul 11 2008 9:12 am
From: Seerialmom

On Jul 10, 8:00 pm, William Souden <sou...@nospam.com> wrote:
> You ,as an individual. pay more than $100 for landline,cell and
> internet access. Find a company offering two or all three at a combo rate.

Details on who currently provides all 3 for the price you're
referencing, please.

> You pay for travelers checks. Better to get them free at AAA or, even
> better, use a debit card on trips.

Wrong: AAA has partnered with Travelex** to offer Traveler Cheques.
Never has traveling to Europe been easier. American Express Euro and
Pounds Traveler Cheques are accepted in 12 European nations. US
Traveler cheques are also available. Please note a $9.95 handling fee
for US Travelers Cheques purchases

> You pay 25 cents a gallon more at a brand name station than at no name
> place across the street.

My coworker swears that his car runs better on "name
brand"...personally I think he's smokin' crack. However if my car
develops the sludges because I didn't use Chevron with Techron...I
might change my tune.

> You pay an extra fee for concert and sporting events which have you go
> to Will Call when you can print the tickets at home.

What if you're being frugal by not having the expense of a computer
and the ink for a printer?

== 2 of 7 ==
Date: Fri, Jul 11 2008 10:10 am
From: clams_casino

Seerialmom wrote:

>
>
>My coworker swears that his car runs better on "name
>brand"...personally I think he's smokin' crack. However if my car
>develops the sludges because I didn't use Chevron with Techron...I
>might change my tune.
>
>
>
>
A few years back, I analyzed about 150k miles of driving and found that
the gas from brand names (Shell, Exxon, Amoco, Chevron, BP, etc)
averaged about 0.3 miles/gallon higher than the so-called off brands
(Pilot, Hess, Murphy, Racetrack, etc), but once I considered the fact
that more "off Brand" gasoline was purchased locally vs. more use of
"brand name" gas on out-of-state interstate trips where the relatively
small increase in mileage was likely due simply because of the higher
amount of interstate driving using the branded gas.

== 3 of 7 ==
Date: Fri, Jul 11 2008 10:14 am
From: George Grapman

Seerialmom wrote:
> On Jul 10, 8:00 pm, William Souden <sou...@nospam.com> wrote:
>> You ,as an individual. pay more than $100 for landline,cell and
>> internet access. Find a company offering two or all three at a combo rate.
>
> Details on who currently provides all 3 for the price you're
> referencing, please.

I can not speak for the OP but I get my DSL and cell from AT&T for a
combined $45 a month. With a home office most of my cell usage is
incoming calls as I use a separate land line for outgoing calls. That
line is unlimited service from IDT for $35 a month. I assume that the
poster is not including the various fees that even those of us who work
in telecom do not always understand.
>
>> You pay for travelers checks. Better to get them free at AAA or, even
>> better, use a debit card on trips.
>
> Wrong: AAA has partnered with Travelex** to offer Traveler Cheques.
> Never has traveling to Europe been easier. American Express Euro and
> Pounds Traveler Cheques are accepted in 12 European nations. US
> Traveler cheques are also available. Please note a $9.95 handling fee
> for US Travelers Cheques purchases

I do not think I have purchased travelers checks since I first got a
debit card. When traveling I rarely carry more than $40 on me. If I need
cash I numerous options:

Go to any chain store,buy one item and get cash back.
My credit union is linked to network of other credit unions as well as
the 7/11 network with no fees for using their ATMs.
>
>> You pay 25 cents a gallon more at a brand name station than at no name
>> place across the street.
>
> My coworker swears that his car runs better on "name
> brand"...personally I think he's smokin' crack. However if my car
> develops the sludges because I didn't use Chevron with Techron...I
> might change my tune.
>
>> You pay an extra fee for concert and sporting events which have you go
>> to Will Call when you can print the tickets at home.
>
> What if you're being frugal by not having the expense of a computer
> and the ink for a printer?

I guess it is on a case by case basis. By the way, one should be wary
of buying computer generated tickets from an unknown person as they
could easily print multiple tickets but only the first one scanned at
the gate will be valid.
Reminds me of a dumb thief years ago when I has weekend season
tickets for the A's. Season tickets were laminated and had a totally
different look than individual game tickets. Someone in our section had
never gotten their season tickets (this was in the days before there
were scanned). The team issued replacements. One day someone showed up
with the originals. The usher called security. The person claimed the
got them at the box office a few weeks ago. They were arrested and later
convicted of mail theft.

== 4 of 7 ==
Date: Fri, Jul 11 2008 10:35 am
From: Seerialmom

On Jul 11, 10:10 am, clams_casino <PeterGrif...@DrunkinClam.com>
wrote:
> Seerialmom wrote:
>
> >My coworker swears that his car runs better on "name
> >brand"...personally I think he's smokin' crack. However if my car
> >develops the sludges because I didn't use Chevron with Techron...I
> >might change my tune.
>
> A few years back, I analyzed about 150k miles of driving and found that
> the gas from brand names (Shell, Exxon, Amoco, Chevron, BP, etc)
> averaged about 0.3 miles/gallon higher than the so-called off brands
> (Pilot, Hess, Murphy, Racetrack, etc), but once I considered the fact
> that more "off Brand" gasoline was purchased locally vs. more use of
> "brand name" gas on out-of-state interstate trips where the relatively
> small increase in mileage was likely due simply because of the higher
> amount of interstate driving using the branded gas.

That would make sense. His argument was probably more about octane
level, but if I believed either Shell or Chevron...my poor engine is
clogging up like the arteries of someone who eats too much fat :)

== 5 of 7 ==
Date: Fri, Jul 11 2008 10:40 am
From: Seerialmom

On Jul 11, 10:14 am, George Grapman <sfgeo...@paccbell.net> wrote:
> Seerialmom wrote:
> > On Jul 10, 8:00 pm, William Souden <sou...@nospam.com> wrote:
> >> You ,as an individual. pay more than $100 for landline,cell and
> >> internet access. Find a company offering two or all three at a combo rate.
>
> > Details on who currently provides all 3 for the price you're
> > referencing, please.
>
> I can not speak for the OP but I get my DSL and cell from AT&T for a
> combined $45 a month. With a home office most of my cell usage is
> incoming calls as I use a separate land line for outgoing calls. That
> line is unlimited service from IDT for $35 a month. I assume that the
> poster is not including the various fees that even those of us who work
> in telecom do not always understand.
>
>
>
> >> You pay for travelers checks. Better to get them free at AAA or, even
> >> better, use a debit card on trips.
>
> > Wrong: AAA has partnered with Travelex** to offer Traveler Cheques.
> > Never has traveling to Europe been easier. American Express Euro and
> > Pounds Traveler Cheques are accepted in 12 European nations. US
> > Traveler cheques are also available. Please note a $9.95 handling fee
> > for US Travelers Cheques purchases
>
> I do not think I have purchased travelers checks since I first got a
> debit card. When traveling I rarely carry more than $40 on me. If I need
> cash I numerous options:
>
> Go to any chain store,buy one item and get cash back.
> My credit union is linked to network of other credit unions as well as
> the 7/11 network with no fees for using their ATMs.
>
I bought traveler's cheques when I was going on a trip to Hong Kong
about 8 years ago, but I also used my debit card. I think the
original point of Traveler's Cheques was that back before debit cards
were around people wrote personal checks. Outside of your local area
many businesses wouldn't take a personal check from out of towners,
Traveler's Cheques were the alternative (plus you didn't have to carry
a big roll of dough).

== 6 of 7 ==
Date: Thurs, Jul 10 2008 11:21 pm
From: Dave

> > You pay 25 cents a gallon more at a brand name station than at no
> > name place across the street.
>
> My coworker swears that his car runs better on "name
> brand"...personally I think he's smokin' crack. However if my car
> develops the sludges because I didn't use Chevron with Techron...I
> might change my tune.

Depends on what name brand your coworker is using. The only difference
I noticed is that I owned one car (a Suzuki) that ran noticeably better
and got better fuel economy if I filled it at any Shell station. It
wasn't a fluke, but a repeated occurrence until I noticed a pattern.
The pattern was, if I filled up at Shell, my MPG calculated at my NEXT
fill-up would be higher. And while the tank was full of mostly Shell,
the car ran noticeably smoother.

OTOH, it is a well-known fact that most fuel comes from the same
refineries. So in many cases, the brand name stuff could be the EXACT
SAME product sold at the no-name place across the street. -Dave

== 7 of 7 ==
Date: Fri, Jul 11 2008 12:11 pm
From: Seerialmom

On Jul 10, 11:21 pm, Dave <no...@nohow.not> wrote:
> > > You pay 25 cents a gallon more at a brand name station than at no
> > > name place across the street.
>
> > My coworker swears that his car runs better on "name
> > brand"...personally I think he's smokin' crack. However if my car
> > develops the sludges because I didn't use Chevron with Techron...I
> > might change my tune.
>
> Depends on what name brand your coworker is using. The only difference
> I noticed is that I owned one car (a Suzuki) that ran noticeably better
> and got better fuel economy if I filled it at any Shell station. It
> wasn't a fluke, but a repeated occurrence until I noticed a pattern.
> The pattern was, if I filled up at Shell, my MPG calculated at my NEXT
> fill-up would be higher. And while the tank was full of mostly Shell,
> the car ran noticeably smoother.
>
> OTOH, it is a well-known fact that most fuel comes from the same
> refineries. So in many cases, the brand name stuff could be the EXACT
> SAME product sold at the no-name place across the street. -Dave

Is it also possible that the pump was either more precise (not sure if
you've seen the reports, but some are way of) or it could just be
better. Personally I think this sounds like something for the
Mythbusters or Top Gear:)

==============================================================================
TOPIC: McDonald's free wifi
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/f18d134b2385fd64?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Jul 11 2008 9:55 am
From: art.shapiro@unisys.com (Arthur Shapiro)

In article
<1df11318-a381-4607-b022-6a3ae3ec0936@m45g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
James <j0069bond@hotmail.com> wrote:
--> I would just as
--> soon go to Starbucks or a public library rather than sit amongst a bunch
--> of noisy kids

But Starbucks, to put it mildly, isn't free. That's both the existing
T-Mobile and the newly-instituted AT&T Wi-Fi. I understand the latter is free
for AT&T wireless customers. (I happen to be a pay-per-minute T-Mobile user.)

Art

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Would you track finances online?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/d633520836dcf5d6?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Jul 11 2008 12:10 pm
From: George

me@privacy.net wrote:
> ediefaber@yahoo.com (elise d faber) wrote:
>
>> are your finances so complex that you really need this?
>
> No..... but I'm attracted to the automation aspect of
> Mint
>
> Basically it sounds like I wouldn't have to save any
> receipts thruout the day and set down at PC at night to
> enter them in Quicken
>
> I do know Clark Howard swears buy them..for what that's
> worth
>
> http://clarkhoward.com/shownotes/category/7/18/209/387/

Its interesting that anyone with a cold and aloof name like
"me@privacy.net" would even consider this.

== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Jul 11 2008 12:26 pm
From: Jeffy3

I'm new to occasional deep-frying and everyone recommends cheese cloth
or coffee filters, and I've tried to coffee filter method with a
funnel but the process is so slow and the funnel only holds so much so
I have to keep coming back every ten minutes to pour some more oil
in. Does anybody have any good ideas ?

== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Jul 11 2008 1:05 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

Jeffy3 <jeffy3@hotmail.com> wrote:

> I'm new to occasional deep-frying and everyone recommends
> cheese cloth or coffee filters, and I've tried to coffee filter method
> with a funnel but the process is so slow and the funnel only holds
> so much so I have to keep coming back every ten minutes to pour
> some more oil in. Does anybody have any good ideas ?

Dont bother to filter it, just reuse it unfiltered.

== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Jul 11 2008 1:33 pm
From: "W. Stief"

Jeffy3 wrote:
> I'm new to occasional deep-frying and everyone recommends cheese cloth
> or coffee filters, and I've tried to coffee filter method with a
> funnel but the process is so slow and the funnel only holds so much so
> I have to keep coming back every ten minutes to pour some more oil
> in. Does anybody have any good ideas ?

How about a piece of metal window screen folded like a funnel or basket?

== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Jul 11 2008 1:36 pm
From: Jeffy3

On Jul 11, 4:33 pm, "W. Stief" <n...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Jeffy3 wrote:
> > I'm new to occasional deep-frying and everyone recommends cheese cloth
> > or coffee filters, and I've tried to coffee filter method with a
> > funnel but the process is so slow and the funnel only holds so much so
> > I have to keep coming back every ten minutes to pour some more oil
> > in. Does anybody have any good ideas ?
>
> How about a piece of metal window screen folded like a funnel or basket?

I guess what I'm asking is for methods that can handle a lot of oil at
once without having to stand there and and keep pouring little bits at
a time.

== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Jul 11 2008 1:45 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

Jeffy3 <jeffy3@hotmail.com> wrote
> W. Stief <n...@sbcglobal.net> wrote
>> Jeffy3 wrote

>> How about a piece of metal window screen folded like a funnel or basket?

> I guess what I'm asking is for methods that can handle a lot of oil at once
> without having to stand there and and keep pouring little bits at a time.

A big enough filter that will hold all the oil.

Not a shred of rocket science whatever required.

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Blog Archive

Friday, July 11, 2008

25 new messages in 10 topics - digest

26 new messages in 9 topics - digest