Frugal Living: Feb 29, 2008

Friday, February 29, 2008

24 new messages in 11 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: recycling a box just cost me 50c
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/02b68c2ffba451c4?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 29 2008 12:34 pm
From: "SpammersDie"

"OhioGuy" <none@none.net> wrote in message news:fq94ml$mh7$1@aioe.org...
> Ok, so 50 cents isn't a lot of money,

That never stops you from complaining.

> What should I have done?

Recycle the box for some other purpose where the box design won't gum up an
assembly line system. There must be a dozen uses for old boxes.

Much as I hate USPS, this is simple common sense.

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 29 2008 12:40 pm
From: Rick

RodSpeed,_dividends_and_cash_flow_are_bubblicious wrote:
>
> On Feb 29, 11:41 am, Samantha Hill - take out TRASH to reply
> <fleetfing...@TRASHgmail.com> wrote:
> > Or turn it inside out and re-glue or re-tape it so it can't be
> > recognized as a priority mail box.
>
> Yep, that will work.
>
> I save padded mailers I get from Ebay purchases and re-use them for
> mailing. I cover the mailer with a brown grocery paper bag so the
> mailer does not show when I mail it.

Good tip - thanks. I hate throwing out bubble mailers that could be
reused, if trying to remove any labels & existing postage stickers
didn't destroy it in the process. Just eliminate the problem. 8-)

Rick

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 29 2008 1:54 pm
From: Al Bundy

On Feb 29, 11:15 am, max <betat...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> whoever:
>
> > > Then I reasoned, "You are telling me that you are going to CHARGE me to
> > > recycle a box instead of throwing it away?" She said yes - their policy was
> > > that priority mail boxes could only be used for priority mail, even if they
> > > were obviously being reused, and even if all the writing on the box was
> > > marked out.
>
> This is a reasonable position for the post office to take. Your box is
> one of hundreds of thousands, possibly millions, of priority mail boxes
> that get processed every day. It's a distinctive design on purpose, to
> allow such packages to be identified at a glance, amongst other crap,
> from a distance, with great assurance of provenance.
>
> You are _actively _fucking_up_the_system_ by attempting to dilute this
> engineered sorting property of priority mail packaging.
>
> It's similar to industrial safety practice where red padlocks, and red
> padlocks only used for safety lockouts of equipment and for no other
> purpose.
>
> It's the same reason that only Stop signs are red octagons.
>
> Your position is unreasonable, and your reasoning is selfish and it is
> clear that you haven't given this the slightest bit of thought.
>
> .max
>
> --
> This signature can be appended to your outgoing mesages. Many people include in
> their signatures contact information, and perhaps a joke or quotation.

Ah ha, but Ohio Guy is not a reasonable person is he? If he can screw
somebody out a a comic book or whatever, he will do it regardless of
who else pays to repair the system.
They say the guy who tries to save the most ends up spending the most.
I suspect this is the case with this person, although he would never
admit it. Some of his posts reveal it though.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Expectations vs reality
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/f7d2ec28a71f317c?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 29 2008 12:44 pm
From: Steve

"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:
>And thats why randomised double blind trials were invented.

Yeah, but the point is that you're typically not able to perform a
randomized double-blind trial. And it helps to recognize that your
brain may be absolutely convinced that one product is better than
another simply because it costs more.

Those who flee temptation generally leave a forwarding address.

...Lane Olinghouse

== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 29 2008 12:58 pm
From: Billy

Steve wrote:
> Excerpts from
> http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2008/02/24/grape_expectations/?page=full
>
> Scientists at CalTech and Stanford recently published the results of a
> peculiar wine tasting. They provided people with cabernet sauvignons
> at various price points, with bottles ranging from $5 to $90. Although
> the tasters were told that all the wines were different, the
> scientists were in fact presenting the same wines at different prices.
> The subjects consistently reported that the more expensive wines
> tasted better, even when they were actually identical to cheaper
> wines. When subjects were told they were getting a more expensive
> wine, there was more activity in a part of the brain known to be
> involved in our experience of pleasure. People expect expensive wines
> to taste better, and then their brains literally make it so.
>
> After the researchers finished their brain imaging, they asked the
> subjects to taste the five different wines again, only this time the
> scientists didn't provide any price information. Although the subjects
> had just listed the $90 wine as the most pleasant, they now completely
> reversed their preferences. When the tasting was truly blind, when the
> subjects were no longer biased by their expectations, the cheapest
> wine got the highest ratings.
>
> The human brain isn't built for objectivity. The brain doesn't
> passively take in perceptions. Rather, brain regions involved in
> developing expectations can systematically alter the activity of areas
> involved in sensation. The cortex is "cooking the books," adjusting
> its own inputs depending on what it expects. People experience reality
> not as it is, but as they expect it to be.
>
> A similar mental process helps explain a wide variety of seemingly
> bizarre consumer behaviors. Baba Shiv, a neuroeconomist at Stanford,
> supplied people with an "energy" drink containing a potent brew of
> sugar and caffeine. Some participants paid full price for the drinks,
> while others were offered a discount.
>
> The participants were then asked to solve a series of word puzzles.
> The people who paid discounted prices consistently solved fewer
> puzzles than the people who paid full price for the drinks, even
> though the drinks were identical.
>
> Since we expect cheaper goods to be less effective, they generally are
> less effective, even if they are identical to more expensive products.
> This is why brand-name aspirin works better than generic aspirin and
> why Coke tastes better than cheaper colas, even if most consumers
> can't tell the difference in blind taste tests.
>
> We have these general beliefs about the world - for example, that
> cheaper products are of lower quality - and they translate into
> specific expectations about specific products.
>
> One of the implications is that it's possible to make a product more
> "effective" by increasing its price. A good marketing campaign can
> have a similar effect, as it instills consumers with lofty
> expectations about the quality of the product.
>
> Expectations can even play havoc with experts. A few years ago,
> Frederic Brochet, a cognitive psychologist at the University of
> Bordeaux, conducted a rather mischievous experiment. He invited 54
> experienced wine tasters to give their impressions of a red wine and a
> white wine. Not surprisingly, the experts described the wines with the
> standard set of adjectives: the red wine was "jammy" and full of
> "crushed red fruit." The white wine, meanwhile, tasted of lemon,
> peaches, and honey.
>
> The next day, Brochet invited the wine experts back for another
> tasting. This time, however, he dyed the white wine with red food
> coloring, so that it looked as if they were tasting two red wines. The
> trick worked. The experts described the dyed white wine with the
> language typically used to describe red wines. The peaches and honey
> tasted like black currants.
>
> According to Brochet, the lesson of his experiment is that our
> experience is the end result of an elaborate interpretive process, in
> which the brain parses our sensations based upon our expectations. If
> we think a wine is red, or that a certain brand is better, then we
> will interpret our senses to preserve that belief. Such distortions
> are a fundamental feature of the brain.
>
>
>
>
They didn't want to look or be perceived as unsophisticated so they
pretended the higher priced wine was better.
Some may have thought it was better as if the price mad a difference but
I doubt it.
Anybody that thinks alcohol that smells like grapes but taste like
rotten potatoes is nuts anyway.

== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 29 2008 1:47 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

Steve <hgd@wsx.inv> wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote

>> And thats why randomised double blind trials were invented.

> Yeah, but the point is that you're typically not
> able to perform a randomized double-blind trial.

Wrong with the absolute vast bulk of what was discussed in your post.

> And it helps to recognize that your brain may be absolutely convinced
> that one product is better than another simply because it costs more.

And thats why randomised double blind trials were invented.

== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 29 2008 2:11 pm
From: jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas)

>Excerpts from
>http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2008/02/24/grape_expectations/?page=full
>
>Scientists at CalTech and Stanford recently published the results of a
>peculiar wine tasting. They provided people with cabernet sauvignons
>at various price points, with bottles ranging from $5 to $90. Although
>the tasters were told that all the wines were different, the
>scientists were in fact presenting the same wines at different prices.

Penn and Teller did that with water for one of their "Bullshit" shows.

== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 29 2008 6:27 pm
From: Shawn Hirn

In article <Rl_xj.36$AL1.31@newsfe06.lga>, Billy <Bob@BillyJoe.Bob>
wrote:

> They didn't want to look or be perceived as unsophisticated so they
> pretended the higher priced wine was better.
> Some may have thought it was better as if the price mad a difference but
> I doubt it.
> Anybody that thinks alcohol that smells like grapes but taste like
> rotten potatoes is nuts anyway.

A few years ago, I was really into wine and I attended many wine
tastings and attended a few courses on wines, such Wines of Italy, Wines
of Nappa Valley, etc. I tend to go for the lower priced wines, and
fairly young vintages. Several wine experts told me that Europeans tend
to favor older and more expensive wines and Americans tend to favor
younger and cheaper wines. For example, I think the $3 bottles of
Charles Shaw wines from Trader Joes are fine, but a friend who's from
Vienna thinks they taste like grape juice.

I do think many people have the mistaken view that more expensive things
equate to better things, not just with wine. When I was a freshman in
college, I worked in a takeout seafood place. We sold a lot of fresh and
cooked seafood. One day, my boss, who owned the business decided to try
an experiment. We made up two trays of fresh flounder filets and put
them in the display case. Both trays consisted of flounder from exactly
the same shipment. My boss priced one tray for $1 more per pound than
the other tray. The more expensive flounder sold out much faster than
the cheaper flounder. Not once did anyone ask us what the difference
between the two trays of fish was, they all just assumed that the more
expensive fish was better. What other reason could they have had for
buying it without asking why two trays of identical fish were not priced
the same?

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Major medical decision - & 1 hour to make it!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/54c841e9bff7de38?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 29 2008 12:57 pm
From: "SpammersDie"

> Last year, the traditional PPO was an obvious good choice. We paid about
> $2,400 and got about $3,500 worth of medical bills paid.
>
> This year, that looks like a bad investment: we'd spend about $5,600 to
> get the same $3,500 in medical bills paid.
>
> The high deductible plan appears to be a mixed bag, though, and I'm not
> sure exactly how to calculate the results. It looks like we would spend
> about $4,500 to get the same $3,500 in medical bills paid.
>
> When you look at it as a return on investment:
>
> Last year trad PPO: 45% return on investment
>
> This year trad PPO: - 37% return on investment
>
> This year high deductible: -22% return on investment
>
>
> So we're looking at a negative return on our investment either way! It
> seems that we have only 2 choices - a bad choice, and an even worse choice
> for our family.
>
> Part of this issue, according to her employer, is because the employee
> pool where she works uses much more medical than most groups. As such,
> when they tried to shop around, they were completely turned down by many
> providers, who would not even provide a quote.
>
> I'm almost convinced that we should drop the insurance she gets through
> work and go out on the open market.

If those health issues were expected to continue generating a "positive ROI"
on your um, "investment", you'd be wise to stay off the open market. The
nice thing about group insurance is that you get the less risky members of
the group to subsidize you and your individual circumstances won't get
looked at too closely. On the open market, the insurer (who is the real
investor here) will evaluate the risk based on your individual circumstances
and rest assured, insurers are in business so *they* make the positive ROI,
not you.

(The flip side is, of course, that your employer may eventually decide that
you represent a negative ROI for them.)

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 29 2008 1:48 pm
From: Al Bundy

OhioGuy wrote:
> My wife and I are facing a HUGE insurance decision to make for our family,
> and we only have 2 hours to make it.
>
> Long story short, the union where she works voted to approve a new
> insurance plan for the next year. They had provided us with insurance info
> that was "tentative" and still being negotiated. As such, the numbers were
> not finalized, and I told my wife that until we got the final numbers for
> the different plans being offered, we couldn't do a real comparison.
>
> Well, yesterday the employees voted to approve the plan, and today they
> told my wife she had to fill out and submit all the paperwork forms by 4 PM
> TODAY - yes - TODAY - if we wanted to remain on the old traditional PPO
> (Blue Cross/Blue Shield) insurance.
>
> The board where she works has pretty much decided that everybody should
> automatically be switched over to a new Core PPO/HRA plan, unless they opt
> out.
>
> The main difference: employee share for traditional PPO plan more than
> doubles - increases from $206 a month (family coverage) to $471 a month.
>
> My wife has a number of health issues, and I think we spend just over
> $3K - maybe $3,500 a year, when I look at the amount the insurance actually
> paid the doctors and such.
>
> The traditional PPO plan covers everything except a $10 to $20 copay we
> paid for meds, and $20 copay we paid for Dr. visits.
>
> New high deductible plan they want to "sweep" everybody into covers the
> first $1,000 annually, but leaves us to pay all medical costs from $1,000 to
> $3,000 - in other words $2k out of pocket if we spend $3,000 annually. Then
> it will cover everything over that.
>
> Considering our average annual health costs, this means that if we have
> about $3,500 in spending next year, here is what we would spend under the
> two plans:

My guess is that if you select or get sweeped into the new plan, you
(wife) will somehow find a way not to see the doctor quite as much.
When it's your nickel, I can almost guaranteeeee you will tighten up
your game.

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 29 2008 3:36 pm
From: "AllEmailDeletedImmediately"

"Al Bundy" <MSfortune@mcpmail.com> wrote in message
news:beb6f599-1bf8-470f-a439-33c4dc5696cb@s13g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
>snip
> My guess is that if you select or get sweeped into the new plan, you
> (wife) will somehow find a way not to see the doctor quite as much.
> When it's your nickel, I can almost guaranteeeee you will tighten up
> your game.

which may or may not be a good thing, depending upon her existing problem.

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 29 2008 6:05 pm
From: Shawn Hirn

In article <fq9dv4$n5h$1@aioe.org>, "OhioGuy" <none@none.net> wrote:

>
> I particularly don't like how the new plan could stick us with an
> unplanned $2K in medical expenses, while this was never a possibility under
> the old plan.
>
> While under the new plan the library still "appears" to be paying 80%, the
> fact that they offload $2k in costs to us really means they aren't. I'm not
> sure what it would bring the percentage down to, but it's probably more in
> line with the 63% they are paying with the traditional plan.
>
> I'm so confused at this point, I really don't know which way we should go,
> and we need to make a decision in the next hour or so. Help!

Considering that your wife has a pre-existing medical condition, you
ought to jump at one of her employer's plans. If you go out to buy a
private policy, you'll be reamed six ways to Sunday, and may not even
find coverage at all due to your wife's medical problem.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Pre-owned ivory wedding dress (sz 4) and veil for sale on ebay
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/fe47c7ab29a18224?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 29 2008 1:31 pm
From: Al Bundy

oligo...@gmail.com wrote:
> Looking for ways to save money on your wedding? I have a beautiful
> ivory duchess silk satin wedding dress and fingertip length veil up
> for auction.
> Silk-Satin-Strapless-Dress-and-
> Veil
> The reserve price is very low ($1500 less than I spent on the dress,
> veil, alterations, and cleaning) because I want to make sure that this
> dress doesn't sit in a closet forever! The auction ends on 3/3.

Sounds quite overpriced for used clothes.
And besides, using it is not the first step in frugality.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 29 2008 2:16 pm
From: clams_casino

oligoden@gmail.com wrote:

>Looking for ways to save money on your wedding?
>

You do realize eBay may cancel your account if they receive a few
complaints of your spamming newsgroups which is against eBay rules.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Times: Penniless pilgrim's walk to India falls foul of the French
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/59466fa9ac46075f?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 29 2008 1:34 pm
From: Al Bundy

Papadillos wrote:
> From Times Online
> February 29, 2008
> Penniless pilgrim's walk to India falls foul of the French
>
>
> Mark Boyle was a man with a dream. He was so convinced that a world without
> the evils of money is possible that he set out to walk from Britain to India
> without spending a penny in order to prove it.
>
And what a dope he is! He was not going to spend any of HIS money.
Everybody can't live off of handouts. A few must produce something
that society values.

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 29 2008 3:22 pm
From: GI.Jane.AR@gmail.com

On Feb 29, 4:34 pm, Al Bundy <MSfort...@mcpmail.com> wrote:
> Papadillos wrote:
> > From Times Online
> > February 29, 2008
> > Penniless pilgrim's walk to India falls foul of the French
>
> > Mark Boyle was a man with a dream. He was so convinced that a world without
> > the evils of money is possible that he set out to walk from Britain to India
> > without spending a penny in order to prove it.
>
> And what a dope he is! He was not going to spend any of HIS money.
> Everybody can't live off of handouts. A few must produce something
> that society values.

Well said, Al. My first thought was how the heck did he get across
the channel without paying passage??

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 29 2008 7:03 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

GI.Jane.AR@gmail.com wrote:
> On Feb 29, 4:34 pm, Al Bundy <MSfort...@mcpmail.com> wrote:
>> Papadillos wrote:
>>> From Times Online
>>> February 29, 2008
>>> Penniless pilgrim's walk to India falls foul of the French
>>
>>> Mark Boyle was a man with a dream. He was so convinced that a world
>>> without the evils of money is possible that he set out to walk from
>>> Britain to India without spending a penny in order to prove it.
>>
>> And what a dope he is! He was not going to spend any of HIS money.
>> Everybody can't live off of handouts. A few must produce something
>> that society values.
>
> Well said, Al. My first thought was how the heck did he get across
> the channel without paying passage??

It is possible to swim across that.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: china wholesale cheap hogan nike air max 90 95 ltd shoes UGG boots
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/1a38309a01643292?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 29 2008 1:58 pm
From: Al Bundy

bizsneake...@yahoo.com.cn wrote:
>

Big bust on the Chinese "fake" Nike shoes here the other day. People
were paying $50 for phony shoes. At least they were lucky enough to
get some kind of shoe. Many times the shoes don't ever get shipped or
get caught at the border. Payment is generally in advance of shipping.
Lots of luck in finding the garage these things came out of. OH, and
don't wear white socks as the color might come off on them and may be
toxic as well.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Great Money Saving Site I Had To Share
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/031cbc067bec3c02?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 29 2008 3:38 pm
From: Sven

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== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 29 2008 3:59 pm
From: clams_casino

Sven wrote:

>I came across this site
>

You found your own site? And you're bragging about it?

==============================================================================
TOPIC: FREE Pledge® Multi Surface Wipes sample... more!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/918f3ef3115650d3?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 29 2008 4:17 pm
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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Supply Nike jordan, AF1 shoes and Bape shoes at low price
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/ded5d7e5d58d77cb?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Incandescent IR power
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/f2dc4189cfeb0563?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 29 2008 5:46 pm
From: redbelly

On Jan 25, 7:01 am, nicksans...@ece.villanova.edu wrote:
> I want to put a picture of a pregnant horse on a website using a Linksys
> WVC200 webcam. The data sheet says it can work at 2 lux and it has an IR
> filter (what does that do?) The vet says it's not a good idea to keep
> the 10'x20' stall lit and the horse awake all night.
>
> Amazon sells $50 low-power IR LED arrays, with mixed reviews.
> Would a 100 W incandescent bulb run at low voltage work as well?
> With some sort of IR filter (exposed film?) over the bulb?
>
> So far, Linksys hasn't been helpful. When I asked on the phone about
> spectral sensitivity, the Indian-accented person asked me what OS
> I was using :-)
>
> Nick

Here is how to remove the IR-blocking filter in one type of camera.
If you're mechanically inclined, you may be able to adapt this method
to your own camera model.

http://www.abe.msstate.edu/~jwooten/camera/lense.html

Note that, in addition to removing the filter, a piece of clear glass
is substituted for it. Otherwise the camera could no longer focus the
image onto the sensor array.

Regards,

Mark

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Grocery Costs
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/dc691accd9fbdd4c?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 29 2008 6:09 pm
From: Shawn Hirn

In article <w3Kxj.14352$097.3402@newsfe21.lga>,
clams_casino <PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote:

> For the past five years, we've averaged (for two) a fairly constant $80
> / week grocery bill. So far this year, we've been averaging about $120
> / wk with no significant change in habits that I can tell.
>
> There's been much talk in the news about grocery costs climbing much
> faster than inflation, but 50% seems a bit outrageous. Hopefully it'll
> average down some in March.
>
> Milk has been hit especially hard. Two years ago, we were paying just
> under $2/gallon. Last week, it was up to $3.15 at the same Cumberland
> Farms store.
>
> We are also starting to see the same inflation in our local breakfast
> places. Two years ago, it was easy to find two eegs / potatoes & toast
> under $2. It's now hard to find many under $3.

Prices go up. That's for sure. Farmers are being reamed due to increased
cost of energy, plus many are dealing with unusually bad growing
conditions, and the cost to transport farmed goods to market is going up
very quickly due to higher gas prices.

==============================================================================

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25 new messages in 15 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
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Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Best frugal technology deal you've gotten
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/432b1da46fece658?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 29 2008 12:52 am
From: Too_Many_Tools

On Feb 27, 4:49 pm, Too_Many_Tools <too_many_to...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Jan 4, 7:36 am, "OhioGuy" <n...@none.net> wrote:
>
> > What's the best technology deal you've gotten in the past couple of
> > months?
>
> > For me, it was the PNY 2 GB USB flash drive I picked up at Staples for
> > $8.48 using a competitor's $15 off coupon. I actually got two of them, to
> > replace the old 512 MB ones my wife and I were using.
>
> Nothing...
>
> There are needs and there are wants.
>
> Almost everything we desire are wants...optional purchases.
>
> The best technology deal is when you don't buy it.
>
> Technology items depreciate incrediably quickly.
>
> I am typing this on a computer that seven years old and it is far more
> than is needed for this application.
>
> I used to be at the leading/bleeding edge of technology
> acquisition...after a few cycles I determined that it was NOT the best
> place for optimization of my resources of time and money.
>
> TMT

Well here is a good example of the need versus want issue...do you
need Vista or do you just want it?

Now Bill...he needs you to want Vista.

TMT

Microsoft cuts Vista prices to urge upgrades

Microsoft Corp (MSFT.O) said on Thursday it plans to cut prices of its
Windows Vista operating system sold at retail outlets in a move aimed
at pushing customers to switch to the newest version of Windows.

The world's largest software maker said it plans to lower retail
prices for Vista in 70 countries later this year in tandem with the
shipment of the first major update to Vista, known as Service Pack 1
(SP1).

Packaged versions of Windows Vista sold at stores and on the Web
account for less than 10 percent of all licenses of the dominant
Windows operating system that sits on more than 90 percent of the
world's personal computers.

Most consumers opt to buy a new PC, which comes preloaded with the
latest version of Windows.

"We anticipate these changed will provide greater opportunities ... to
sell more stand-alone copies of Windows," said Brad Brooks, a
Microsoft corporate vice president.

In the United States, Microsoft will reduce prices for Windows Vista
Ultimate, the company's top-end operating system, to $319 from $399
for the full version and cut the price for an "upgrade" version to
$219 from $259 for consumers who already run Windows XP or another
edition of Vista.

It also cut prices for upgrade versions of Vista Home Premium, its
mainstream product, to $129 from $159. The price cuts vary by country.

In emerging markets, Microsoft will stop selling "upgrade" versions of
Vista, because, for many customers, it will be the first purchase of a
genuine copy of Windows. The company will instead sell Vista Home
Premium and Home Basic, a stripped-down version, at the upgrade
prices.

Microsoft has sold more than 100 million licenses of Vista since its
January 2007 release and its adoption has underpinned strong earnings
results at the company in recent quarters.

Nonetheless, some consumers have raised issues with Vista's
performance, stringent hardware requirement and lack of support for
other software and devices like printers. Microsoft said it would
continue to sell Windows XP until June 2008, delaying a scheduled
transition to Vista.

Brooks, who oversees consumer marketing of Vista, said he is confident
the company can bring in enough new customers to offset the revenue
declines from lowering prices after seeing the results of a recent
three-month promotional trial of lower Vista prices.

The announcement comes on the heels of sales data that showed a 30
percent drop in money spent for software at U.S. retailers in January,
according to market research firm NPD.

Microsoft said the announcement is unrelated to the sales data, which
the company said could be a result of inventory build-up after the
holiday shopping season.

(Reporting by Daisuke Wakabayashi, editing by Leslie Gevirtz)

==============================================================================
TOPIC: www.shopbb.com from china Wholesale Footwear, Apparel,Bag,NFL Jersey,,
mobile phones,shop.Best Service,Best Pruce,Best Items
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/6ea7c894ad775ac9?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Ass Fuckers & Cock Lickers....
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/ede1d258b4fdd9a3?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 29 2008 2:24 am
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TOPIC: invite
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/262b14c7a1070532?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 29 2008 2:35 am
From: "meetmanisamy@gmail.com"

==============================================================================
TOPIC: O People of the Book!?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/d97d52442066037e?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 29 2008 3:03 am
From: "laelahaellallah@gmail.com"

Say: "O People of the Book! come to common terms as between us and
you: That we worship none but Allah. that we associate no partners
with him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons
other than Allah." If then they turn back, say ye: "Bear witness that
we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to Allah.s Will).

The Holy Quran in English:
http://www.alamuae.com/up/Folder-013/1204281947_The_Holy_Quran.zip

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Earn from home
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/e3d45d934b14d057?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 29 2008 3:23 am
From: clams_casino

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== 1 of 7 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 29 2008 6:26 am
From: "OhioGuy"

Ok, so 50 cents isn't a lot of money, but it's still annoying.

I got a package in the mail last week, and I put it up on the shelf,
intending to reuse it in the future. I rarely have to buy a box because I
tend to reuse those that have been sent to me in the past.

Anyway, this particular box was a priority mail box. As I've been taught,
I used a black permanent marker to mark out all of the writing & such on the
box. Then I logged in to Paypal, entered the address & such, and printed a
mailing label. Total shipping cost was $5.90

Since the box was too big for my mailbox, I took it to the downtown post
office to drop it off. I wasn't sure if I could just walk up and leave it
on the counter, so I waited for the couple of folks in line.

When I got up to the counter, I explained was just dropping it off, and
it was prepaid. She told me I would not be allowed to mail it parcel post,
because it was in a priority mail package. I told her to look at it - it
was slightly beat up, and you could see the edge of the old address sticking
out - obviously it had been used before.

Then I reasoned, "You are telling me that you are going to CHARGE me to
recycle a box instead of throwing it away?" She said yes - their policy was
that priority mail boxes could only be used for priority mail, even if they
were obviously being reused, and even if all the writing on the box was
marked out.

I ended up having to pay an extra half dollar to "upgrade" to priority
mail.

What should I have done? Should I have just left it there and walked out?

I guess next time I'll paint the outside of the box white or something!

== 2 of 7 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 29 2008 7:49 am
From: Zuke

On Fri, 29 Feb 2008, OhioGuy wrote:

> Ok, so 50 cents isn't a lot of money, but it's still annoying.
>
> I got a package in the mail last week, and I put it up on the shelf,
> intending to reuse it in the future. I rarely have to buy a box because I
> tend to reuse those that have been sent to me in the past.
>
> Anyway, this particular box was a priority mail box. As I've been taught,
> I used a black permanent marker to mark out all of the writing & such on the
> box. Then I logged in to Paypal, entered the address & such, and printed a
> mailing label. Total shipping cost was $5.90
>
> Since the box was too big for my mailbox, I took it to the downtown post
> office to drop it off. I wasn't sure if I could just walk up and leave it
> on the counter, so I waited for the couple of folks in line.
>
> When I got up to the counter, I explained was just dropping it off, and
> it was prepaid. She told me I would not be allowed to mail it parcel post,
> because it was in a priority mail package. I told her to look at it - it
> was slightly beat up, and you could see the edge of the old address sticking
> out - obviously it had been used before.
>
> Then I reasoned, "You are telling me that you are going to CHARGE me to
> recycle a box instead of throwing it away?" She said yes - their policy was
> that priority mail boxes could only be used for priority mail, even if they
> were obviously being reused, and even if all the writing on the box was
> marked out.
>
> I ended up having to pay an extra half dollar to "upgrade" to priority
> mail.
>
> What should I have done? Should I have just left it there and walked out?
>
> I guess next time I'll paint the outside of the box white or something!
>

You probably should have done what you did--pay the $.50 and chalk it
up to "live and learn".

== 3 of 7 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 29 2008 8:15 am
From: max

whoever:

> > Then I reasoned, "You are telling me that you are going to CHARGE me to
> > recycle a box instead of throwing it away?" She said yes - their policy was
> > that priority mail boxes could only be used for priority mail, even if they
> > were obviously being reused, and even if all the writing on the box was
> > marked out.
> >

This is a reasonable position for the post office to take. Your box is
one of hundreds of thousands, possibly millions, of priority mail boxes
that get processed every day. It's a distinctive design on purpose, to
allow such packages to be identified at a glance, amongst other crap,
from a distance, with great assurance of provenance.

You are _actively _fucking_up_the_system_ by attempting to dilute this
engineered sorting property of priority mail packaging.

It's similar to industrial safety practice where red padlocks, and red
padlocks only used for safety lockouts of equipment and for no other
purpose.

It's the same reason that only Stop signs are red octagons.

Your position is unreasonable, and your reasoning is selfish and it is
clear that you haven't given this the slightest bit of thought.

.max

--
This signature can be appended to your outgoing mesages. Many people include in
their signatures contact information, and perhaps a joke or quotation.

== 4 of 7 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 29 2008 8:41 am
From: Samantha Hill - take out TRASH to reply

OhioGuy wrote:
>
> What should I have done? Should I have just left it there and walked out?
>
> I guess next time I'll paint the outside of the box white or something!

Or turn it inside out and re-glue or re-tape it so it can't be
recognized as a priority mail box.

== 5 of 7 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 29 2008 8:53 am
From: "RodSpeed,_dividends_and_cash_flow_are_bubblicious"

On Feb 29, 11:41 am, Samantha Hill - take out TRASH to reply
<fleetfing...@TRASHgmail.com> wrote:
> Or turn it inside out and re-glue or re-tape it so it can't be
> recognized as a priority mail box.

Yep, that will work.

I save padded mailers I get from Ebay purchases and re-use them for
mailing. I cover the mailer with a brown grocery paper bag so the
mailer does not show when I mail it.

== 6 of 7 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 29 2008 8:55 am
From: "Bob F"

"Samantha Hill - take out TRASH to reply" <fleetfingers@TRASHgmail.com> wrote in
message news:47c835ba$0$84184$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
> OhioGuy wrote:
>>
>> What should I have done? Should I have just left it there and walked out?
>>
>> I guess next time I'll paint the outside of the box white or something!
>
>
> Or turn it inside out and re-glue or re-tape it so it can't be recognized as a
> priority mail box.

Or, wrap it first in the paper from a grocery bag.

== 7 of 7 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 29 2008 12:22 pm
From: "Melissa"

"Samantha Hill - take out TRASH to reply" <fleetfingers@TRASHgmail.com>
wrote in message news:47c835ba$0$84184$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
> OhioGuy wrote:
>>
>> What should I have done? Should I have just left it there and walked
>> out?
>>
>> I guess next time I'll paint the outside of the box white or something!
>
>
> Or turn it inside out and re-glue or re-tape it so it can't be recognized
> as a priority mail box.

The PO has also cracked down on that practice. Priority boxes are free and
can only be used for Priority mail. You can't even use the free mailing
labels for anything but Priority.

Work within their system or pay the price. No pity here.

Melissa

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 29 2008 7:10 am
From: Thomas Paterson

On Jan 25, 6:01 am, nicksans...@ece.villanova.edu wrote:
> I want to put a picture of a pregnant horse on a website using a Linksys
> WVC200 webcam. The data sheet says it can work at 2 lux and it has an IR
> filter (what does that do?) The vet says it's not a good idea to keep
> the 10'x20' stall lit and the horse awake all night.

It's probably too late to be useful, but I had dinner the other day
with a horse ophthalmologist (they do exist). The answer is that
horses don't really see red, so indirect red light at very low level
should be fine - just enough for the camera to work. Probably best to
replace the LED ropelight/christmas lights noted in my post of January
31 with red versions if still relevant.

Horses (I'm told) generally give birth between 2 and 4am, certainly
always at night. It's an evolutionary thing - horses are prey animals
and don't want to be seen when they are vulnerable. That means that
it's important that they're unaware of the observation.

I hope everything went well, we'd love to see photos.

Thomas.

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== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 29 2008 9:04 am
From: "OhioGuy"

My wife and I are facing a HUGE insurance decision to make for our family,
and we only have 2 hours to make it.

Long story short, the union where she works voted to approve a new
insurance plan for the next year. They had provided us with insurance info
that was "tentative" and still being negotiated. As such, the numbers were
not finalized, and I told my wife that until we got the final numbers for
the different plans being offered, we couldn't do a real comparison.

Well, yesterday the employees voted to approve the plan, and today they
told my wife she had to fill out and submit all the paperwork forms by 4 PM
TODAY - yes - TODAY - if we wanted to remain on the old traditional PPO
(Blue Cross/Blue Shield) insurance.

The board where she works has pretty much decided that everybody should
automatically be switched over to a new Core PPO/HRA plan, unless they opt
out.

The main difference: employee share for traditional PPO plan more than
doubles - increases from $206 a month (family coverage) to $471 a month.

My wife has a number of health issues, and I think we spend just over
$3K - maybe $3,500 a year, when I look at the amount the insurance actually
paid the doctors and such.

The traditional PPO plan covers everything except a $10 to $20 copay we
paid for meds, and $20 copay we paid for Dr. visits.

New high deductible plan they want to "sweep" everybody into covers the
first $1,000 annually, but leaves us to pay all medical costs from $1,000 to
$3,000 - in other words $2k out of pocket if we spend $3,000 annually. Then
it will cover everything over that.

Considering our average annual health costs, this means that if we have
about $3,500 in spending next year, here is what we would spend under the
two plans:

Traditional PPO: $471 a month out of pocket, or $5,652 out of pocket a year
in premiums to have everything but copays covered. If we have $3,500 in
expenses, this means we pay $5,652 to get $3,500 back this year. Last year
it would have cost us only $2,424 in premiums to get this same coverage. (so
it was like getting a $1,000 return on our "investment") This year, it
would be like losing $2,100 on a $5,652 investment, unless our costs were
significantly higher - which has happened in the past.

High Deductible HRA/PPO: $206 a month out of pocket, or $2,472 a year. It
seems much more complicated. If we have the same expenses as last year,
they would pay the first thousand, we would pay the next $2,000, and they
would pay the next $500. (out of $3,500) So our total out of pocket
expenses for the care would be $4,472. For that "investment", we would be
reimbursed for the first $1,000 in expenses, plus $500, for a total of
$1,500 we would get back

Last year, the traditional PPO was an obvious good choice. We paid about
$2,400 and got about $3,500 worth of medical bills paid.

This year, that looks like a bad investment: we'd spend about $5,600 to
get the same $3,500 in medical bills paid.

The high deductible plan appears to be a mixed bag, though, and I'm not
sure exactly how to calculate the results. It looks like we would spend
about $4,500 to get the same $3,500 in medical bills paid.

When you look at it as a return on investment:

Last year trad PPO: 45% return on investment

This year trad PPO: - 37% return on investment

This year high deductible: -22% return on investment

So we're looking at a negative return on our investment either way! It
seems that we have only 2 choices - a bad choice, and an even worse choice
for our family.

Part of this issue, according to her employer, is because the employee
pool where she works uses much more medical than most groups. As such, when
they tried to shop around, they were completely turned down by many
providers, who would not even provide a quote.

I'm almost convinced that we should drop the insurance she gets through
work and go out on the open market. The only thing that tells me that would
be a bad choice is the fact that her employer says they are paying 80% of
the premiums.

According to them, traditional PPO family coverage for each family costs
$1,300 per month, of which they are willing to pay $825. The new high
deductible HRA costs $1,031 a month, of which they are willing to pay $825
worth. You can see that they are offering 80% if we will switch over to the
high deductible plan, but only 63% if we stick with the old plan.

Anyone have any ideas on this? What really 'sticks in my craw' is that
they just voted on whether to approve these numbers yesterday. (my wife
voted no - she agreed that the union needed to try to get better terms)
Then when she came in to work this morning, they told her she not only had
to make a decision between the two plans, but also fill out several forms
and get them in by 4 today! I find that unreasonable, and here I am at home
crunching numbers on it, only to find out that both options are rather bad
for us!

I particularly don't like how the new plan could stick us with an
unplanned $2K in medical expenses, while this was never a possibility under
the old plan.

While under the new plan the library still "appears" to be paying 80%, the
fact that they offload $2k in costs to us really means they aren't. I'm not
sure what it would bring the percentage down to, but it's probably more in
line with the 63% they are paying with the traditional plan.

I'm so confused at this point, I really don't know which way we should go,
and we need to make a decision in the next hour or so. Help!

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 29 2008 10:56 am
From: "AllEmailDeletedImmediately"

"OhioGuy" <none@none.net> wrote in message news:fq9dv4$n5h$1@aioe.org...
> My wife and I are facing a HUGE insurance decision to make for our
> family, and we only have 2 hours to make it.
>
SNIP

how likely is your wife to have complications, etc? since it's obvious
that the company wants you in the other plan, maybe refuse to screw them?
that should give you enough time (1yr?) to decide if you want to switch next
yr. or just decide to go with the new plan, stick the 2k in the bank and
leave it. will you be able to switch back to the old plan if you do that?

dh's company doesn't give us much time to make decisions either. i have a
feeling that crap is really going to change this yr.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 29 2008 11:59 am
From: hchickpea@hotmail.com

On Fri, 29 Feb 2008 18:56:44 GMT, "AllEmailDeletedImmediately"
<derjda@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
>"OhioGuy" <none@none.net> wrote in message news:fq9dv4$n5h$1@aioe.org...
>> My wife and I are facing a HUGE insurance decision to make for our
>> family, and we only have 2 hours to make it.
>>
>SNIP
>
>how likely is your wife to have complications, etc? since it's obvious
>that the company wants you in the other plan, maybe refuse to screw them?
>that should give you enough time (1yr?) to decide if you want to switch next
>yr. or just decide to go with the new plan, stick the 2k in the bank and
>leave it. will you be able to switch back to the old plan if you do that?
>
>dh's company doesn't give us much time to make decisions either. i have a
>feeling that crap is really going to change this yr.
>
New plan. Deal with the $2K.

Same thing I've said before, get a plan on your own when young and
healthy, stick with it, and don't fool with insurance from the
employers.

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 29 2008 9:09 am
From: Papadillos

From Times Online
February 29, 2008
Penniless pilgrim's walk to India falls foul of the French

Mark Boyle was a man with a dream. He was so convinced that a world without
the evils of money is possible that he set out to walk from Britain to India
without spending a penny in order to prove it.

But Mr Boyle, who hoped to reach Gandhi's birthplace within two-and-a-half
years, had reckoned without one sizeable stumbling block: the French.

Specifically, the 28-year-old businessman and his two travelling companions
had failed to consider the likely reaction when they arrived in Calais and
attempted to blag their way across the proud Gallic nation without being
able to speak French.

Stranded in the port town just a month into his journey with little more
than an extra pair of sandals to his name, Mr Boyle turned tail and returned
home to England. Adding insult to injury, he had to "touch money" in making
the trip.

The former head of an organic food company is part of the Freeconomy
movement, which wants to rid the world of money altogether.

Explaining the motives behind his 9,000-mile trip before he set off, he
said: "For 28 years I've been part of a world where money means security.
That's 28 years of knowing where my next meal is going to come from, 28
years of knowing I can have a roof over my head. But it's also been 28 years
of insecurity, fear, complacency and non-momentary living."

And so, in late January, he began his "pilgrimage" to India's west coast,
hoping that it would demonstrate his faith in humanity.

But this noble plan hit the buffers almost as soon as he and two companions
had crossed the Channel.

Writing on his blog, Mr Boyle said that the optimistic philosophy behind his
project had somehow got lost in translation: "Not only did no one...speak
the language, they also see us as just a bunch of freeloading backpackers,
which is the complete opposite of what the pilgrimage is really about."

"That really scared us, and given that we now were pretty much out of food,
hadn't slept in days and were really cold, we had to reassess the whole
situation."

It soon became clear that not learning the local lingo was a fairly major
mistake: "We spoke to a few people who were willing to talk and they said
that France would not go for this unless we could speak fluent French, which
none of us could.

"The advice was to make a beeline for Belgium as folk said they would be
more likely to want to speak some English."

The problem with that, however, is that the nearest sizeable town in Belgium
was some 170km away, and all the three had to sustain them during the trek
was three tins of soup, a bag of trail mix and a chocolate bar.

"As it was unlikely that we would get a chance to help or be helped by
French people in the journey getting there, the task looked daunting to say
the least."

For a few happy moments it looked as though salvation had arrived in the
form of an interview on a French radio station.

The interview was a success, and Mr Boyle hoped the listening public would
come to his rescue after learning that his intention was to offer his labour
and friendship in return for food and water. But those hopes were dashed
when he discovered that the chat would not be on air for up to a week.

"Deflated, we sat down and thought about what on earth we were going to do.
Head off on the three-day hike to Bruges with practically no food and hope
the situation there got better, or to call it all off."

And so, with a heavy heart, My Boyle decided to return home and help people
in the UK.

"Sitting in the station, I decided to make a decision. I decided to go back
home and to continue the pilgrimage in my own community in a sense," he
said.

"The disappointment I felt at making that decision is something I cannot
explain fully in words, you have to believe me. It felt like the dream was
over."

"But to the day I die I know that was the best decision I could have made
with what I knew and felt.

"I have touched money to get back here and I want you all to know that."

Mr Boyle now plans to walk around Britain - where the need to speak French
is less pressing - instead.

He said: "What we are going to do is walk from town to town asking people
'Can I help you?'"

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article3459919.ece

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 29 2008 10:18 am
From: oligoden@gmail.com

Looking for ways to save money on your wedding? I have a beautiful
ivory duchess silk satin wedding dress and fingertip length veil up
for auction on ebay (<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Siri-Ruched-Duchess-
Silk-Satin-Strapless-Dress-and-
Veil_W0QQitemZ120226698423QQihZ002QQcategoryZ63851QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem">link</
a>).

The reserve price is very low ($1500 less than I spent on the dress,
veil, alterations, and cleaning) because I want to make sure that this
dress doesn't sit in a closet forever! The auction ends on 3/3.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 29 2008 10:21 am
From: oligoden@gmail.com

So I guess HTML links don't work here. Here's the ebay URL:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Siri-Ruched-Duchess-Silk-Satin-Strapless-Dress-and-Veil_W0QQitemZ120226698423QQihZ002QQcategoryZ63851QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

-oligoden

On Feb 29, 1:18 pm, oligo...@gmail.com wrote:
> Looking for ways to save money on your wedding? I have a beautiful
> ivory duchess silk satin wedding dress and fingertip length veil up
> for auction on ebay (<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Siri-Ruched-Duchess-
> Silk-Satin-Strapless-Dress-and-
> Veil_W0QQitemZ120226698423QQihZ002QQcategoryZ63851QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem">link</
> a>).
>
> The reserve price is very low ($1500 less than I spent on the dress,
> veil, alterations, and cleaning) because I want to make sure that this
> dress doesn't sit in a closet forever! The auction ends on 3/3.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Forget oil, short the stock market
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/f319c22ae17e49be?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 29 2008 11:35 am
From: Cheapo Groovo

In article <veidnXHetdq8ZFjanZ2dnUVZ_hqdnZ2d@comcast.com>,
bobnospam@gmail.com says...
>
> "George Grapman" <sfgeorge@paccbell.net> wrote in message
> news:AEEvj.7364$Ru4.1796@newssvr19.news.prodigy.net...
> > AllEmailDeletedImmediately wrote:
> >> "George Grapman" <sfgeorge@paccbell.net> wrote in message
> >> news:HgDvj.8660$5K1.6973@newssvr12.news.prodigy.net...
> >>> RodSpeed,_dividends_and_cash_flow_are_bubblicious wrote:
> >>>> Anyone can play this game I am seeing. It is a casino at this point.
> >>>> Try utilizing QID, SDS,DOG, PSQ,SH,DXD among other exchange traded
> >>>> funds to go short on the major US market indexes. That EWA is holding
> >>>> on fine there RodSpeed. Either the big money desk traders are trying
> >>>> to take the market down incrementally because positions are so screwed
> >>>> up or else they are baiting the shorts to get stuck in short holdings
> >>>> that will get squeezed.
> >>>>
> >>>> I am of the opinion that everything is market-based now. Thanks to
> >>>> modern society, I can see gasoline go up in price daily, fluctuating
> >>>> on oil prices. Real estate is market based, no firm prices there.
> >>>> Health care? That is the next big thing that will be irking peoples of
> >>>> the USA. Forget about jobs that go anywhere. We are looking at
> >>>> massive containment of people for health benefits.
> >>> Keep in mind that when but buy a stock your losses are limited to your
> >>> investment but when you go short the losses have no limit.
> >>
> >> and there's never any guarantee that you can sell.
> >>
> >>
> > I went short on a stock once. This was before the internet and I was
> > checking the price on the phone hourly. After I few days I realized I did not
> > have the stomach for this and cashed out.
>
> You could have put in a protective order to close out the position if the stock
> went up to much.
>
>
>
Use ETFs to short enitre indices and/or countries - you don't need a
margin account.

Also use Zecco and forget about a human broker.

I posted all this stuff on my blog - but folks aroung here think that
providing information that is actionable is spamming!

http://cheapogroovo.vox.com

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 29 2008 11:36 am
From: Steve

Excerpts from
http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2008/02/24/grape_expectations/?page=full

Scientists at CalTech and Stanford recently published the results of a
peculiar wine tasting. They provided people with cabernet sauvignons
at various price points, with bottles ranging from $5 to $90. Although
the tasters were told that all the wines were different, the
scientists were in fact presenting the same wines at different prices.
The subjects consistently reported that the more expensive wines
tasted better, even when they were actually identical to cheaper
wines. When subjects were told they were getting a more expensive
wine, there was more activity in a part of the brain known to be
involved in our experience of pleasure. People expect expensive wines
to taste better, and then their brains literally make it so.

After the researchers finished their brain imaging, they asked the
subjects to taste the five different wines again, only this time the
scientists didn't provide any price information. Although the subjects
had just listed the $90 wine as the most pleasant, they now completely
reversed their preferences. When the tasting was truly blind, when the
subjects were no longer biased by their expectations, the cheapest
wine got the highest ratings.

The human brain isn't built for objectivity. The brain doesn't
passively take in perceptions. Rather, brain regions involved in
developing expectations can systematically alter the activity of areas
involved in sensation. The cortex is "cooking the books," adjusting
its own inputs depending on what it expects. People experience reality
not as it is, but as they expect it to be.

A similar mental process helps explain a wide variety of seemingly
bizarre consumer behaviors. Baba Shiv, a neuroeconomist at Stanford,
supplied people with an "energy" drink containing a potent brew of
sugar and caffeine. Some participants paid full price for the drinks,
while others were offered a discount.

The participants were then asked to solve a series of word puzzles.
The people who paid discounted prices consistently solved fewer
puzzles than the people who paid full price for the drinks, even
though the drinks were identical.

Since we expect cheaper goods to be less effective, they generally are
less effective, even if they are identical to more expensive products.
This is why brand-name aspirin works better than generic aspirin and
why Coke tastes better than cheaper colas, even if most consumers
can't tell the difference in blind taste tests.

We have these general beliefs about the world - for example, that
cheaper products are of lower quality - and they translate into
specific expectations about specific products.

One of the implications is that it's possible to make a product more
"effective" by increasing its price. A good marketing campaign can
have a similar effect, as it instills consumers with lofty
expectations about the quality of the product.

Expectations can even play havoc with experts. A few years ago,
Frederic Brochet, a cognitive psychologist at the University of
Bordeaux, conducted a rather mischievous experiment. He invited 54
experienced wine tasters to give their impressions of a red wine and a
white wine. Not surprisingly, the experts described the wines with the
standard set of adjectives: the red wine was "jammy" and full of
"crushed red fruit." The white wine, meanwhile, tasted of lemon,
peaches, and honey.

The next day, Brochet invited the wine experts back for another
tasting. This time, however, he dyed the white wine with red food
coloring, so that it looked as if they were tasting two red wines. The
trick worked. The experts described the dyed white wine with the
language typically used to describe red wines. The peaches and honey
tasted like black currants.

According to Brochet, the lesson of his experiment is that our
experience is the end result of an elaborate interpretive process, in
which the brain parses our sensations based upon our expectations. If
we think a wine is red, or that a certain brand is better, then we
will interpret our senses to preserve that belief. Such distortions
are a fundamental feature of the brain.

Those who flee temptation generally leave a forwarding address.

...Lane Olinghouse

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 29 2008 12:23 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

Steve <hgd@wsx.inv> wrote:
> Excerpts from
> http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2008/02/24/grape_expectations/?page=full
>
> Scientists at CalTech and Stanford recently published the results of a
> peculiar wine tasting. They provided people with cabernet sauvignons
> at various price points, with bottles ranging from $5 to $90. Although
> the tasters were told that all the wines were different, the
> scientists were in fact presenting the same wines at different prices.
> The subjects consistently reported that the more expensive wines
> tasted better, even when they were actually identical to cheaper
> wines. When subjects were told they were getting a more expensive
> wine, there was more activity in a part of the brain known to be
> involved in our experience of pleasure. People expect expensive wines
> to taste better, and then their brains literally make it so.
>
> After the researchers finished their brain imaging, they asked the
> subjects to taste the five different wines again, only this time the
> scientists didn't provide any price information. Although the subjects
> had just listed the $90 wine as the most pleasant, they now completely
> reversed their preferences. When the tasting was truly blind, when the
> subjects were no longer biased by their expectations, the cheapest
> wine got the highest ratings.
>
> The human brain isn't built for objectivity. The brain doesn't
> passively take in perceptions. Rather, brain regions involved in
> developing expectations can systematically alter the activity of areas
> involved in sensation. The cortex is "cooking the books," adjusting
> its own inputs depending on what it expects. People experience reality
> not as it is, but as they expect it to be.
>
> A similar mental process helps explain a wide variety of seemingly
> bizarre consumer behaviors. Baba Shiv, a neuroeconomist at Stanford,
> supplied people with an "energy" drink containing a potent brew of
> sugar and caffeine. Some participants paid full price for the drinks,
> while others were offered a discount.
>
> The participants were then asked to solve a series of word puzzles.
> The people who paid discounted prices consistently solved fewer
> puzzles than the people who paid full price for the drinks, even
> though the drinks were identical.
>
> Since we expect cheaper goods to be less effective, they generally are
> less effective, even if they are identical to more expensive products.
> This is why brand-name aspirin works better than generic aspirin and
> why Coke tastes better than cheaper colas, even if most consumers
> can't tell the difference in blind taste tests.
>
> We have these general beliefs about the world - for example, that
> cheaper products are of lower quality - and they translate into
> specific expectations about specific products.
>
> One of the implications is that it's possible to make a product more
> "effective" by increasing its price. A good marketing campaign can
> have a similar effect, as it instills consumers with lofty
> expectations about the quality of the product.
>
> Expectations can even play havoc with experts. A few years ago,
> Frederic Brochet, a cognitive psychologist at the University of
> Bordeaux, conducted a rather mischievous experiment. He invited 54
> experienced wine tasters to give their impressions of a red wine and a
> white wine. Not surprisingly, the experts described the wines with the
> standard set of adjectives: the red wine was "jammy" and full of
> "crushed red fruit." The white wine, meanwhile, tasted of lemon,
> peaches, and honey.
>
> The next day, Brochet invited the wine experts back for another
> tasting. This time, however, he dyed the white wine with red food
> coloring, so that it looked as if they were tasting two red wines. The
> trick worked. The experts described the dyed white wine with the
> language typically used to describe red wines. The peaches and honey
> tasted like black currants.
>
> According to Brochet, the lesson of his experiment is that our
> experience is the end result of an elaborate interpretive process, in
> which the brain parses our sensations based upon our expectations. If
> we think a wine is red, or that a certain brand is better, then we
> will interpret our senses to preserve that belief. Such distortions
> are a fundamental feature of the brain.

And thats why randomised double blind trials were invented.

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