Frugal Living: Feb 14, 2009

Saturday, February 14, 2009

misc.consumers.frugal-living - 25 new messages in 10 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: America is doomed without industrial restoration
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/3ac833194943bee0?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 14 2009 4:23 pm
From: "Bill Bonde { No matter what happens, it's caused by global warming )"

wismel@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> All the bailouts... and the stimulii...all the hot air....the debt...
> the debt servicing... they DON"T MATTER
>
> In the long run it all comes down to loss of US productivity.. the
> loss of US created wealth.
> Unless the US can rebuild its manufacturing capability it will be a
> long slide into a third world level of subsistence.
>
> Generating paper has never saved a country from its expoitators.
>
> The only solution is to withdarw from the WTO and allow US workers -
> and only US workers - the ability to make this country into a
> powerhouse again
>
Kook Alert.

--
He and Evie soon fell into a conversation of the "No, I didn't;
yes, you did" type--conversation which, though fascinating to those
who are engaged in it, neither desires nor deserves the attention
of others.
-+E.M. Forster, "Howards End"

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 14 2009 5:37 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

Bill Bonde wrote
> John A. Weeks III wrote
>> wismel@yahoo.com wrote:

>>> In the long run it all comes down to loss of US productivity.. the loss of US created wealth.

>> Ummm, worker productivity has been at an all time high for quite
>> some time, and has been surging ahead over the past few months.
>> There is no issue with productivity.

>>> Unless the US can rebuild its manufacturing capability it will be a
>>> long slide into a third world level of subsistence.

>> Ummm, the US is at an all time high for manufacturing at the moment.
>> We manufacture far more than we did in 15 years ago. That is now
>> an issue right now.

>>> The only solution is to withdarw from the WTO and allow US workers -
>>> and only US workers - the ability to make this country into a
>>> powerhouse again

>> That sounds like the old burry you head in the sand and hope it
>> goes away theory. Good luck with that.

> There is an issue with regards to the balance of trade.
> For some reason the Chinese economy is tanking,

Because the world economy is tanking and so exports are dropping.

> imports are going down,

Because the chinese economy is tanking.

> and yet they are still running about a $30bn a month trade surplus.

Yep, because even when the world economy is tanking, that does not mean zero exports.

People still need to buy lots of stuff.

> Meanwhile the people are starving.

Nope, no chinese are starving.

> How about employing Americans to grow some food and sell it to China?

They do.

> The blackhole that this money is going into needs to stop.

Easier said than done.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 14 2009 10:54 pm
From: B1ackwater

me@privacy.net wrote:

>B1ackwater <bw@barrk.net> wrote:
>
>> 'Capitalism' is inherently a positive-feedback system ... and
>> therefore highly unstable. Left alone, it oscillates wildly
>> between boom and bust. While this may serve a few savvy (or
>> lucky) speculators & investors it's not GOOD enough as the
>> basis for modern 1st-world economies & nations. It HAS to be
>> tempered, regulated, plugged into some negative feedback in
>> order to damp-out the oscillations.
>
>Interesting!
>
>have some links on this?

It's cybernetics 101 ....

A pity it's not a required course for anyone in
the sciences (physicians, especially, would benifit).

We like to think we and are endeavours are *special* somehow,
beyond crass qualificataion/quantification.

Nope.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Car Insurance
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/0743cd326690fd99?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 14 2009 5:21 pm
From: "Lou"

"Dave" <noway1@nohow2.not> wrote in message
news:gn7015$smt$1@news.motzarella.org...
> >>
> >> That's another way of saying that health care costs are TOTALLY out of
> >> control. -Dave
> >>
> > I'm saying nothing of the kind, and that's another subject anyway. At
the
> > moment, that's the way the world is, and a prudent person does what s/he
> > can
> > to deal with it. It's certainly not an argument for not buying auto
> > insurance.
>
> Well didn't mean to change the subject. But it's typical for a one-night
> hospital stay to cost more than a middle-class families gross YEARLY
income.
> If that is not a broken health care system, what is? -Dave

I guess it depends on what you mean by "broken". If health care was where
it was 50 years ago when I was a kid, I'd be 10 years dead by now. And
though my recent surgery was characterized as minor (one day in the
hospital, back to work in four days, could have probably been back in three
if I pushed it) without it I had a 50% chance of losing either or both legs
sometime in the next 10 years. And again, back in my youth, this particular
procedure wasn't available.

So I'll grant it was expensive, more expensive than I'd expected. But
personally, it was worth it.

Health care reform isn't going to change how much it costs to build or
maintain a hospital, or a CAT scanner, or anything else. It may "control"
costs by making things like CAT scans and certain procedures and medications
less available. Other than that, it mostly shifts the burden of payment
around.

And it's still not an argument for not having auto insurance.

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 14 2009 5:30 pm
From: "Lou"

"Dave Garland" <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> wrote in message
news:HJCdnUuXGr1hgwrUnZ2dnUVZ_tzinZ2d@posted.visi...
> Lou wrote:
> > "Dave" <noway1@noway2.not> wrote in message
> >> That's another way of saying that health care costs are TOTALLY out of
> >> control.
> >>
> > I'm saying nothing of the kind, and that's another subject anyway. At
the
> > moment, that's the way the world is,
>
> Actually, that's the way the USA is, not the world.
>
> Another Dave

Oh please - if you live somewhere else and are subject to different rules,
then your situation is different, and what you do in response to that
situation is different. I presumed the original question was from someone
in the US, and at the moment, if you live in the US, that is the way the
world is, as far as you're concerned. It's not going to help you one bit
if, standing in a courtroom, you say that somewhere else you wouldn't have
to pay the medical bills incurred by someone you injured.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 14 2009 7:12 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

Lou wrote:
> "Dave" <noway1@nohow2.not> wrote in message
> news:gn7015$smt$1@news.motzarella.org...
>>>>
>>>> That's another way of saying that health care costs are TOTALLY
>>>> out of control. -Dave
>>>>
>>> I'm saying nothing of the kind, and that's another subject anyway.
>>> At the moment, that's the way the world is, and a prudent person
>>> does what s/he can
>>> to deal with it. It's certainly not an argument for not buying auto
>>> insurance.
>>
>> Well didn't mean to change the subject. But it's typical for a
>> one-night hospital stay to cost more than a middle-class families
>> gross YEARLY income. If that is not a broken health care system,
>> what is? -Dave
>
> I guess it depends on what you mean by "broken". If health care was
> where it was 50 years ago when I was a kid, I'd be 10 years dead by
> now. And though my recent surgery was characterized as minor (one
> day in the hospital, back to work in four days, could have probably
> been back in three if I pushed it) without it I had a 50% chance of
> losing either or both legs sometime in the next 10 years. And again,
> back in my youth, this particular procedure wasn't available.
>
> So I'll grant it was expensive, more expensive than I'd expected. But
> personally, it was worth it.

> Health care reform isn't going to change how much it costs to
> build or maintain a hospital, or a CAT scanner, or anything else.

It can, actually. When the Jap system didnt allow high charges for
CAT scans, that forced the Japs to make much cheaper CAT scanners
and they now flog those to the rest of the world at those lower prices.

> It may "control" costs by making things like CAT scans
> and certain procedures and medications less available.

Didnt happen in Japan. They are all still freely available with no waiting
time at all, no possibility of the system telling you you cant have them,
and with a $10 per day hospital charge mandated if you are happy with
a 4 bed ward, $90 if you want to pay for a private ward instead.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sickaroundtheworld/

> Other than that, it mostly shifts the burden of payment around.

Wrong. It drastically cuts the cost of health care.
Thats why everywhere else has MUCH cheaper total health care costs than the US has.

> And it's still not an argument for not having auto insurance.

Wrong again. If you can only be charged what the Jap system charges, many would self insure.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Is it legal for a company to SHORTEN their advertised warranty?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/a48e6176efb2e22e?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 14 2009 5:21 pm
From: albundy2@mailinator.com

OhioGuy wrote:
> I've run into a couple of instances recently where a company seems to
> have retroactively changed the warranty on a product. The first was the
> actual manufacturer, and the second was a reseller.
>
> The first was a Logitech Trackman Wheel trackball, model # T-BB18.
> Inside the retail box, it clearly describes it as "Logitech warrants
> that any hardware products accompanying this documentation shall be free
> from significant defects in material and workmanship for a period of
> five years from the date of purchase." On the back of the box, it even
> says in French, Garantie 5 ans, and in Spanish, Garantia de 5 anos. I
> think it was pretty clear cut.
>
> However, when I got on the website and put in the model # and
> everything, they only show a 3 year warranty for it. 2 years
> disappeared! So instead of having just under 4 years left, I supposedly
> only have less than 2 years. Not nice being told your warranty has been
> cut in half, and you're not getting what the box said you were.
> Normally it wouldn't be much of an issue, but the cord developed some
> sort of short circuit about 3" from where it leaves the trackball, so
> I'm going to try to get it replaced under the warranty. (granted - it's
> a first for any Logitech product I've ever owned)
>
> The other instance was a digital projector that was advertised on
> Tigerdirect.com with a 24 month warranty on parts, and a 24 month
> warranty on labor. (the manufacturer's website says that the warranty
> varies by reseller) At the time I placed my order, I decided it would
> also be prudent to grab a screenshot of the page showing the two year
> warranty.
>
> I'm glad I did, because now that Tigerdirect is sold out, when I go
> to the same page and look at the description, it has been changed to
> show only a 12 month warranty on parts and labor - not 24 months. I
> have proof that it was marketed and sold as having a two year warranty,
> so I hope the manufacturer will honor this if I need to have the unit
> serviced during that time.
>
> How about you - have you noticed any similar changing of an
> advertised warranty after the fact?

Warranties change all the time. You're jumping the gun. Nobody denied
you you warranty. Where did you get the idea that a company had to
keep everything the same for every buyer after you?

==============================================================================
TOPIC: It's all falling apart, isn't it?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/aaee75672b67549f?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 14 2009 6:03 pm
From: phil scott

On Feb 14, 3:11 pm, Dan <d...@nospam.net> wrote:
> on 2/14/09 4:21 PM Dave Garland said the following:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Dan wrote:
>
> >> Just forget the unemployment rate. Look at your TOTAL TAXATION AND FEES
> >> hit. That is directly correlated to the DOLE TRAIN.
>
> > If you include Halliburton and the military in the "dole train"
> > (invading and occupying foreign countries doesn't come cheap), along
> > with wealthy sports team owners who get tax money to build stadiums
> > with, and greedy business owners who demand tax breaks for their
> > business (so that the rest of us have to carry their share), and the
> > bankers who get multimillion dollar bonuses when their banks go down
> > the tubes (we have to bail them out because the Bushies failed to
> > regulate the banks), and the auto drivers who expect to have their
> > travel subsidized (gas tax only pays about half of the cost). And the
> > places where politicians let the infrastructure go to hell rather than
> > spending the money necessary to maintain it. Ya, the "dole train" is
> > pretty big. Personally, it ticks me off more when it's the rich with
> > their hands out.
>
> > Dave
>
> And all of that is reflected total taxes and fees (look at your
> receipts!). I am trying to figure out where to move, but it seems the
> whole world is jumping on the Dole Train.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

beyond whats on the reciepts you get is the taxes hidden in the cost
of producing the goods or service you bought... for instance if the
plumber you hired is in the 25% bracket federal. 15% self employment
tax, and 12% state tax...fuel and other fees... his cost is up 60% or
so... and that is passed on to you.... and of course he must buy
groceries and there is hidden taxes in that...

an accurate accounting for the actual total taxes we pay would have
most of us in the 70 to 80% range... and of course we cant pay it...so
we borrow. and our govt still over spends, so issues bonds to other
nations... we are now the worlds biggest debtor.... with no way in
hell to even pay the interest in it without going even deeper into
debt.

A way out it personally is to have no or very few taxable assets, and
earn less than the income tax threshold. that leaves you in a net
40 tax bracket (because the goods and serrvices you buy are taxed and
that is passed on to you.... that approach is at least
sustainable. You wont have to work yourself to death to live.

why are all these taxes necessary? Here is one of many examples...
did you know that police and firement, rank an file types, not
chiefs... retire at 90 to 100% of the last years pay in most
states...and that amount is based on their *last years pay... which
can be spiked to approxx double in the last year by saving vacation
time for a few years back, sick days. uniform allowances and by others
taking off sick so the last year guys can work double and triple over
time. These are retiring mostly well over 100,000 dollars year,
many over 150,000 dollars a year... half of that not taxable, and with
100% health insurance for life.

(chiefs retire at 250k after two years vested as chief, many then
rotate with others to draw several such retirments)

One might considerr how many working people it takes to fund just one
flat foots retirement (and no... police and firemen jobs are not
dangerous, not even in the top 10... roofers, nurses and plumbers are
in the top 10)

Net cost of that to cities is in the 70 to 80% of the net tax base...
and 45% of that pays *just the retirement costs.

It is this mess at the core of our state and local financial
disasters... at the federal level its a different set of issues.

Phil scott

== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 14 2009 7:19 pm
From: Dan

on 2/14/09 8:03 PM phil scott said the following:
> On Feb 14, 3:11 pm, Dan <d...@nospam.net> wrote:
>> on 2/14/09 4:21 PM Dave Garland said the following:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Dan wrote:
>>>> Just forget the unemployment rate. Look at your TOTAL TAXATION AND FEES
>>>> hit. That is directly correlated to the DOLE TRAIN.
>>> If you include Halliburton and the military in the "dole train"
>>> (invading and occupying foreign countries doesn't come cheap), along
>>> with wealthy sports team owners who get tax money to build stadiums
>>> with, and greedy business owners who demand tax breaks for their
>>> business (so that the rest of us have to carry their share), and the
>>> bankers who get multimillion dollar bonuses when their banks go down
>>> the tubes (we have to bail them out because the Bushies failed to
>>> regulate the banks), and the auto drivers who expect to have their
>>> travel subsidized (gas tax only pays about half of the cost). And the
>>> places where politicians let the infrastructure go to hell rather than
>>> spending the money necessary to maintain it. Ya, the "dole train" is
>>> pretty big. Personally, it ticks me off more when it's the rich with
>>> their hands out.
>>> Dave
>> And all of that is reflected total taxes and fees (look at your
>> receipts!). I am trying to figure out where to move, but it seems the
>> whole world is jumping on the Dole Train.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> beyond whats on the reciepts you get is the taxes hidden in the cost
> of producing the goods or service you bought... for instance if the
> plumber you hired is in the 25% bracket federal. 15% self employment
> tax, and 12% state tax...fuel and other fees... his cost is up 60% or
> so... and that is passed on to you.... and of course he must buy
> groceries and there is hidden taxes in that...
>
> an accurate accounting for the actual total taxes we pay would have
> most of us in the 70 to 80% range... and of course we cant pay it...so
> we borrow. and our govt still over spends, so issues bonds to other
> nations... we are now the worlds biggest debtor.... with no way in
> hell to even pay the interest in it without going even deeper into
> debt.
>
>
> A way out it personally is to have no or very few taxable assets, and
> earn less than the income tax threshold. that leaves you in a net
> 40 tax bracket (because the goods and serrvices you buy are taxed and
> that is passed on to you.... that approach is at least
> sustainable. You wont have to work yourself to death to live.
>
> why are all these taxes necessary? Here is one of many examples...
> did you know that police and firement, rank an file types, not
> chiefs... retire at 90 to 100% of the last years pay in most
> states...and that amount is based on their *last years pay... which
> can be spiked to approxx double in the last year by saving vacation
> time for a few years back, sick days. uniform allowances and by others
> taking off sick so the last year guys can work double and triple over
> time. These are retiring mostly well over 100,000 dollars year,
> many over 150,000 dollars a year... half of that not taxable, and with
> 100% health insurance for life.
>
> (chiefs retire at 250k after two years vested as chief, many then
> rotate with others to draw several such retirments)
>
>
> One might considerr how many working people it takes to fund just one
> flat foots retirement (and no... police and firemen jobs are not
> dangerous, not even in the top 10... roofers, nurses and plumbers are
> in the top 10)
>
>
>
>
> Net cost of that to cities is in the 70 to 80% of the net tax base...
> and 45% of that pays *just the retirement costs.
>
>
> It is this mess at the core of our state and local financial
> disasters... at the federal level its a different set of issues.
>
>
> Phil scott
>
>

I certainly hope as a business owner you are also looking at the tax and
fee hit assessed on your business.

== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 14 2009 7:27 pm
From: phil scott

On Feb 14, 7:19 pm, Dan <d...@nospam.net> wrote:
> on 2/14/09 8:03 PM phil scott said the following:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Feb 14, 3:11 pm, Dan <d...@nospam.net> wrote:
> >> on 2/14/09 4:21 PM Dave Garland said the following:
>
> >>> Dan wrote:
> >>>> Just forget the unemployment rate. Look at your TOTAL TAXATION AND FEES
> >>>> hit. That is directly correlated to the DOLE TRAIN.
> >>> If you include Halliburton and the military in the "dole train"
> >>> (invading and occupying foreign countries doesn't come cheap), along
> >>> with wealthy sports team owners who get tax money to build stadiums
> >>> with, and greedy business owners who demand tax breaks for their
> >>> business (so that the rest of us have to carry their share), and the
> >>> bankers who get multimillion dollar bonuses when their banks go down
> >>> the tubes (we have to bail them out because the Bushies failed to
> >>> regulate the banks), and the auto drivers who expect to have their
> >>> travel subsidized (gas tax only pays about half of the cost). And the
> >>> places where politicians let the infrastructure go to hell rather than
> >>> spending the money necessary to maintain it. Ya, the "dole train" is
> >>> pretty big. Personally, it ticks me off more when it's the rich with
> >>> their hands out.
> >>> Dave
> >> And all of that is reflected total taxes and fees (look at your
> >> receipts!). I am trying to figure out where to move, but it seems the
> >> whole world is jumping on the Dole Train.- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > beyond whats on the reciepts you get is the taxes hidden in the cost
> > of producing the goods or service you bought... for instance if the
> > plumber you hired is in the 25% bracket federal. 15% self employment
> > tax, and 12% state tax...fuel and other fees... his cost is up 60% or
> > so... and that is passed on to you.... and of course he must buy
> > groceries and there is hidden taxes in that...
>
> > an accurate accounting for the actual total taxes we pay would have
> > most of us in the 70 to 80% range... and of course we cant pay it...so
> > we borrow. and our govt still over spends, so issues bonds to other
> > nations... we are now the worlds biggest debtor.... with no way in
> > hell to even pay the interest in it without going even deeper into
> > debt.
>
> > A way out it personally is to have no or very few taxable assets, and
> > earn less than the income tax threshold. that leaves you in a net
> > 40 tax bracket (because the goods and serrvices you buy are taxed and
> > that is passed on to you.... that approach is at least
> > sustainable. You wont have to work yourself to death to live.
>
> > why are all these taxes necessary? Here is one of many examples...
> > did you know that police and firement, rank an file types, not
> > chiefs... retire at 90 to 100% of the last years pay in most
> > states...and that amount is based on their *last years pay... which
> > can be spiked to approxx double in the last year by saving vacation
> > time for a few years back, sick days. uniform allowances and by others
> > taking off sick so the last year guys can work double and triple over
> > time. These are retiring mostly well over 100,000 dollars year,
> > many over 150,000 dollars a year... half of that not taxable, and with
> > 100% health insurance for life.
>
> > (chiefs retire at 250k after two years vested as chief, many then
> > rotate with others to draw several such retirments)
>
> > One might considerr how many working people it takes to fund just one
> > flat foots retirement (and no... police and firemen jobs are not
> > dangerous, not even in the top 10... roofers, nurses and plumbers are
> > in the top 10)
>
> > Net cost of that to cities is in the 70 to 80% of the net tax base...
> > and 45% of that pays *just the retirement costs.
>
> > It is this mess at the core of our state and local financial
> > disasters... at the federal level its a different set of issues.
>
> > Phil scott
>
> I certainly hope as a business owner you are also looking at the tax and
> fee hit assessed on your business.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Im semi retired, largely below that threshold thank god.

staying small and ungreedy so to speak has wonderful advantages.

***
Here is a piece I wrote about the larger mess... we are breeding
idiots.

Summary:

We evolve on a second by second basis... our genetics are not changed
by this, but the magnitude of various driving charcteristics is
changed radically.

Survival characteristics, such as an ability to focus or seek out
ways to get ahead.... be productive, educated and be competent for
instance..... are vaporized.

In noticing the current generation... to a large extent.... these are
just fooling around, giggling in the coffee shops, and behaving like
idiots....

the trivial is their entire life.

they dont know strife. Let alone what previous generations
experienced, surviving wars, depressions, or hard fought business, and
trades work etc.

We have it easy now. These are the virulent seeds of absolute
disaster imo.

can I blame these people?

Not actually. I can't blame them.

These are products of the easy living culture we have, few of these
kids get any challenge, low end jobs given to illegal imigrants, the
high end work moved off shore....or into corporations where getting
along with a corrupt management is required to stay employed.

Such things as expressing a controversial opininion are now frowned on
or outright illegal... we have bred more than an incompetent class...
we have bred a class of people that will never know victor

We are now looking down the gun barrel of defeat on several fronts.

The epigenetics spinning from this situation second by second, then
extended during ones formative years are entirely fatal to a nations
ability to be economically viable.

***

Countering this and offering substantial hope historically and a vast
resurrection is the national collapse cycle of nations... starvation,
hard times...and civil strife brings back the grit and glint of intent
in ones eye....

These types run the pipe straight, the wring neat... they take the
time to understand why it is necessary to operate that way. Prior
to such stress we do sloppy work. Its fatal in the end... the person
degrades under such operating conditions.

Phil scott

== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 14 2009 8:55 pm
From: josejarvie@ssnet.net

The big banks knew what they were doing, but they knew they were too big to fail, too politically connected to
fail. The people who created this disaster knew how it was going to end. The U.S. economy is being
restructured IMF style.

On Sat, 14 Feb 2009 14:32:26 -0500, in misc.consumers.frugal-living "meport" <jjme169@earthlink.net> wrote:

>Wrong. They aren't dumber than anyone else. Greedier than most, maybe.
>More conniving than most, I doubt it because most people would have done the
>exact thing given the chance. Lacking the moral core of most, possibly.
>But not dumber.

== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 14 2009 9:01 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

josejarvie@ssnet.net wrote:

> The big banks knew what they were doing,

Like hell they did. No one would deliberately produce
a complete implosion of the world financial system.

> but they knew they were too big to fail, too politically connected to fail.

Utterly silly conspiracy theory.

> The people who created this disaster knew how it was going to end.

Utterly mindless conspiracy theory.

> The U.S. economy is being restructured IMF style.

Thanks for that completely superfluous proof that you have never ever had a fucking clue about anything at all, ever.

> meport <jjme169@earthlink.net> wrote
>
>> Wrong. They aren't dumber than anyone else. Greedier than most,
>> maybe. More conniving than most, I doubt it because most people
>> would have done the exact thing given the chance. Lacking the moral
>> core of most, possibly. But not dumber.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Epigenetics...the care and breeding of idiots
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/f9724e9e0716cdd8?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 14 2009 7:08 pm
From: phil scott

.
Summary:

We evolve on a second by second basis... our genetics are not changed
by this, but the magnitude of various driving charcteristics is
changed redically.

Survival characteristics, such as an ability to focus or seek out
ways to get ahead.... be productive, educated and be competent for
instance..... are vaporized.

In noticing the current generation... to a large extent.... these are
just fooling around, giggling in the coffee shops, and behaving like
idiots.... the trivial is their entire life.

they dont know strife. Let alone what previous generations
experienced, surviving wars, depressions, or hard fought business, and
trades work etc. We have it easy now. These are the virulent
seeds of absolute disaster imo.

can I blame them? Not actually. I cant blame them.

and such things as expressing a controversial opininion now frowned
on or outright illegal... we have bred more than an incompetent
class... we have bred a class of people that will never know victory.

We are now looking down the gun barrel of defeat.

The epigenetics spinning from this situation second by second, then
extended during ones formative years are entirely fatal to a nations
ability to be economically viable.

***
Countering this and offering substantial hope historically and a vast
resurrection is the national collapse cycle of a nation... starvation,
hard times...and civil strife brings back the grit and glint of intent
in ones eye....

Phil scott

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Warning about Fieldbreeze clf light bulbs
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/7001956c61da27d6?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 14 2009 8:23 pm
From: skulluton@live.com

pictures of CFL that melted down and burned http://www.execulink.com/~impact/fieldbreeze.htm

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 14 2009 8:25 pm
From: skulluton@live.com

skullu...@live.com wrote:
> pictures of CFL that melted down and burned http://www.execulink.com/~impact/fieldbreeze.htm

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 14 2009 11:13 pm
From: don@manx.misty.com (Don Klipstein)

In <695ddbcb-02d9-4e03-9e66-86199c848eca@q40g2000prh.googlegroups.com>,
skulluton@live.com wrote:
>pictures of CFL that melted down and burned
>http://www.execulink.com/~impact/fieldbreeze.htm

Not that I actually viewed this, but...

My personal experience is that among CFLs "Fieldbreeze" is one of the
"dollar store brands" for "dollar store junkers" of CFLs.

My personal experience of all CFLs sold at "dollar stores" in USA for
USD/$ 1.99 or less, amounting to 20 "brands" and 69 "models" that I spent
significantly more than USD $69 on evaluating and in a few cases sent a
few units to a friend of mine at-best replicating/reinforcing my negative
opinion on "dollar store CFLs"...

http://members.misty.com/don/cfdollar.html

It appears to me that the immediately-above link tells the stories
(sometimes indirectly) "sufficiently well" of junker-clunker CFLs, based
on experience that I had (maybe a small bit indirectly from a fairly
close "online friend') and mostly said citably at least about 4 months
ago.

- Don Klipstein (don@misty.com)

==============================================================================
TOPIC: need a small, inexpensive urban TV antenna
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/22d545ae9e8cb014?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 14 2009 8:51 pm
From: josejarvie@ssnet.net

I can not get any TV reception with analog so I guess the same will be true with digital. If I want TV here
I'll have to stay with cable or satellite.

On Sat, 14 Feb 2009 14:49:05 -0500, in misc.consumers.frugal-living OhioGuy <none@none.net> wrote:

> Hmm. It seems like there is really some antagonism over digital TV.
> No, the switchover does not solve everything. For some folks, it
>actually CAUSES problems.
>
> For example, my grandfather has an antenna rotor, and is able to pull
>in about 15 analog channels acceptably, perhaps 10 without moving the
>rotor. When he hooked up a digital set top box, suddenly he could only
>pull in half as many channels, and some of these occasionally pixellated
>out. This was very frustrating to him, and he assumed something was
>wrong with the unit. He is approx 60 miles from the nearest
>transmitter, but the ground is very flat, and he has a good antenna up
>about 50 feet. He is an example of one of the folks that will likely
>lose, not gain, when the switchover to digital TV is complete. No
>matter what he does with installing preamps and such, I doubt that he'll
>ever be able to get as many channels as he got previously.
>
> I had a lot of trouble myself at first, until I found that my
>placement of the antenna made a huge difference. I slowly moved the
>antenna around until I found a spot where the majority of digital
>channels seemed to come in best. It happened to be right against our
>window, so I ended up using duct tape to hold it right in that spot,
>behind the curtains.
>
> I've noticed that some of the digital receiver set top boxes are
>sorely lacking. I've tried 3 different ones before I found one that
>satisfied me - the TR-40 CRA, which is about $10 cheaper than the 100%
>same thing - DTV Pal, from Dish Network. What I liked about it:
>
>A) pulled in some weaker stations the others did not get
>
>B) it has a REAL program guide. While I can only see about 8 to 12
>hours into the future with it right now, the menu says that if the local
>channels provide the info, it can show something like 4 days worth of
>upcoming info.
>
>C) it has a timer, so you can set up a timed recording, and it will tune
>to that channel at that time, & you can use your VCR to record the show.
> Just like a VCR, you can set up a one time, daily, weekly, etc.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Hard boiled eggs.
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/032a3102de8f165d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 14 2009 9:00 pm
From: josejarvie@ssnet.net

On Sat, 14 Feb 2009 08:12:00 -0600, in misc.consumers.frugal-living BillGill <billnews2@cox.net> wrote:

>James wrote:
>> My local Safeway has large eggs on sale this week for 99 cents a
>> dozen.
>>
>> If I cook a bunch of hard boiled eggs would they keep in their shells
>> at room temperature? I don't have room in the fridge.
>
>I recall the time when we didn't find all of the Easter eggs one Easter.
>Then some time later we found the one that was missing. Too bad it
>didn't disappear forever. I wouldn't even try that.
>
>Bill

They don't refrigerate eggs in England.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Bubbles are caused by excessive credit.
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/d06a55cb7610180d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 14 2009 10:43 pm
From: "(David P.)"

The main cause of the Population Bubble is also
excessive credit, i.e., saying that everyone is a
valuable asset as long as they live.
L I K E H E L L T H E Y A R E ! !
Hordes are no longer viable, due to infirmity,
and become a drag on the system.
.
.
--

==============================================================================
TOPIC: OT - Survivalism Retail Style
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/da641b3711ca2726?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 6 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 14 2009 11:14 pm
From: Winston_Smith

"Ed Huntress" <huntres23@optonline.net> wrote:

>
><EskWIRED@spamblock.panix.com> wrote in message
>news:gk2ntk$ih9$2@reader1.panix.com...
>> In misc.survivalism Curly Surmudgeon <CurlySurmudgeon@live.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I wonder if it's possible to simultaneously suffer both deflation and
>>> inflation?
>>
>> Winston says Yes.
>
>Winston be wrong. You can have inflation and a contracting economy
>(stagflation), or deflation and a contracting economy (recession), but you
>can't have aggregate inflation and aggregate deflation at the same time.

You can have inflation in one area and deflation in another. Esk
can't understand that.

I'll bet your stocks and the value of your house is deflating.
I'll bet your grocery bill is inflating.

It's Esk's oversimplification that asset/commodity values and retail
prices are somehow magically linked. Take that up with him.

Hasn't the Bush/Obama teams' answer to stock market deflation been to
inflate the money supply? Still the market deflates. Esk will
explain why this isn't really happening in his little world.

== 2 of 6 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 14 2009 11:15 pm
From: Winston_Smith

EskWIRED@spamblock.panix.com wrote:

>In misc.survivalism F. George McDuffee <gmcduffee@mcduffee-associates.us> wrote:
>
>> Spondulicks are dollar denominated securities that circulate just
>> like money.
>
>Ah. So nothing exists that meets the definition.

Not to worry. You are the one that told us you made up your own
definitions because you didn't like the standard one.

== 3 of 6 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 14 2009 11:16 pm
From: Winston_Smith

EskWIRED@spamblock.panix.com wrote:

>In misc.survivalism Ed Huntress <huntres23@optonline.net> wrote:
>
>> <EskWIRED@spamblock.panix.com> wrote in message
>> news:gk2ntk$ih9$2@reader1.panix.com...
>> > In misc.survivalism Curly Surmudgeon <CurlySurmudgeon@live.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> I wonder if it's possible to simultaneously suffer both deflation and
>> >> inflation?
>> >
>> > Winston says Yes.
>
>> Winston be wrong. You can have inflation and a contracting economy
>> (stagflation), or deflation and a contracting economy (recession), but you
>> can't have aggregate inflation and aggregate deflation at the same time.
>
>Yep. But try to tell him that, and he will change the subject.

But you keep telling me it's wrong for me to keep going back to the
same subject. I'll do it your way. Do you have a way or do you just
run off at the mouth?

== 4 of 6 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 14 2009 11:21 pm
From: Winston_Smith

EskWIRED@spamblock.panix.com wrote:

>In misc.survivalism Curly Surmudgeon <CurlySurmudgeon@live.com> wrote:
>
>> Early in Reagan's term we were worried about stagflation, it seem to be
>> upon us now.

Which started when Nixon's failed war for mythical oil ended (sound
familiar), and moved on to inspire Ford to invent WIN buttons*, and
crippled Carter until Reagan inherited the problem.

Don't expect the Bush folly to end any time soon.

>Not nearly. Inflation is not in the double-digits. Indeed, many folks
>are worried about deflation instead.

Stagflation does not require anything as specific as double digit
inflation.

*Whip Inflation Now

== 5 of 6 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 14 2009 11:23 pm
From: Winston_Smith

EskWIRED@spamblock.panix.com wrote:

>In misc.survivalism Curly Surmudgeon <CurlySurmudgeon@live.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, 10 Jan 2009 18:06:31 +0000, EskWIRED wrote:
>
>> > In misc.survivalism Curly Surmudgeon <CurlySurmudgeon@live.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >> Then the inflating prices of commodities, cost of livign, may finally
>> >> be seen clearly.
>> >
>> > Commodities are droppig in price currently.
>
>> That depends on your reference, long term moving average is way up.
>
>Notice that I said "currently". Please don't just change the subject.
>
>
>> Corn has more than doubled since Bush took office, down only in the last
>> 18 months from a peak but up overall.
>> http://futures.tradingcharts.com/printchart/CN/M
>
>"Currently", is what I said.

You really do like to go with the currents don't you? Every time you
are wrong or get stuck, you say the currents have changed. Very
slippery technique.

== 6 of 6 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 14 2009 11:26 pm
From: Winston_Smith

EskWIRED@spamblock.panix.com wrote:

>In misc.survivalism Jones <jones@jones.com> wrote:
>
>> > I see no mitigating indicators in the near term to replace those which will inevitably peter out.
>
>> Because you dont have a clue about the basics.
>
>That is increasing apparent.
>
>Winston - this stuff interests you. But you are confused about basic
>relationships. You'd enjoy these discussion more if you were on
>solid ground.

Who on earth are you talking to? I'm not in this sub thread. Do try
to get a grip, man!

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Google Groups: http://groups.google.com/?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living - 25 new messages in 8 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 14 2009 11:46 am
From: Dave Garland

Lou wrote:
> "Dave" <noway1@noway2.not> wrote in message
>> That's another way of saying that health care costs are TOTALLY out of
>> control.
>>
> I'm saying nothing of the kind, and that's another subject anyway. At the
> moment, that's the way the world is,

Actually, that's the way the USA is, not the world.

Another Dave

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 14 2009 1:20 pm
From: The Real Bev

Mark Anderson wrote:

> On Fri, 13 Feb 2009 08:40:57 -0500, Lou wrote:
>
>>> Here in the great banana republic of Illinois the required coverage for
>>> liability is $40,000. If you insure the minimum and someone ran up a
>>> $100K medical bill you'd still be uninsured for $60K, almost like
>>> having no insurance at all.
>>
>> The easy answer is that you insure for more than the legal minimum. The
>> other point is that if you end up having to pay, it's a lot easier to
>> pay 60K than it is to pay 100K.
>
> It all comes down to the amount of risk you are willing to take. If you
> run someone over and they live the liability could run up into the
> millions.

The solution is obvious: if you aren't sure, back up and try again.

> When hit with a multi-million dollar judgment how much is your
> $40K or $300K or $500K insurance policy worth? The plaintiff will take
> all your assets and bankrupt you regardless.

--
Cheers, Bev
O_________________________________________________O
"John Wayne toilet paper -- It's rough, it's tough,
and it don't take no crap from nobody."

== 1 of 6 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 14 2009 11:44 am
From: "Rod Speed"

brooklyn1 wrote:
> "Ed Pawlowski" wrote:
>> "brooklyn1" wrote:
>>> "Ed Pawlowski" wote:
>>>> "brooklyn1" wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bear in mind that if you hard-boil them, then you can pile them
>>>>>> all in a vertical container that takes a lot less space than an
>>>>>> egg carton.
>>>>> That's just silly... any fridge with enough height between
>>>>> shelves to stack a dozen eggs would be humongous, would certainly
>>>>> have room to store eggs the normal way. Six large eggs stacked
>>>>> short side to short side (as in an egg carton) measure like 10". A dozen eggs would need like a 20" long tube...
>>>>
>>>> Talk about silly. Why would they have to be stacked egg on egg? A
>>>> pitcher though, would stack them vertical, yet nested a bit and
>>>> take minimal space. Loosen up your thought process a bit.
>>> Tighten up on your attributions.
>>>
>>
>> Did you not say the above about "That's just silly"?

> You have me attributed to:
> "Bear in mind if you hard-boil them, then you can pile them all in a
> vertical container that takes a lot less space than an egg carton."

No he doesnt. He didnt attribute that bit. Count the >s on that bit and yours that contains the word silly.

> I did not say that.

He didnt say you did.

> I explained why stacking is silly, with which next you seemed to concur, but omited here. You'd do much better if you
> were as heavy handed with house cleaning attributions as you are with editing text... if everyone cleaned up
> attributions as I do (see above) there'd be far less misinterpretation.

His attribution was completely clear.

http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/msg/c65b0982ad4c90f7?hl=en&dmode=source

== 2 of 6 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 14 2009 1:11 pm
From: The Real Bev

Dave Garland wrote:

> The Real Bev wrote:
>>
>> How long does it take before you can tell they're pickled if you wash
>> off the vinegar?
>>
> Couple of weeks. If you're serious you stick each egg with a fork (to
> provide an extra way for infiltration). And invert the jar daily to
> agitate the solution.
>
> But why would you wash off the vinegar?

If they don't absorb it, why not just spray some vinegar on fresh HB eggs?

> Just fish them out, and eat
> them. No rinsing needed. Then eat the onions etc. that are left.

I used some watermelon-pickle juice to make pickled beets out of fresh ones. I
should have cooked them longer. Next time...

--
Cheers, Bev
O_________________________________________________O
"John Wayne toilet paper -- It's rough, it's tough,
and it don't take no crap from nobody."

== 3 of 6 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 14 2009 1:18 pm
From: The Real Bev

ares wrote:

> "E Z Peaces" <cash@invalid.invalid> wrote in message news:z2Dll.3805
>>
>> If eggs could be spoiled, you can open each one individually and see if
>> the yolk runs.
>
> Lol; you mean using its legs?

If that happens you definitely kept the egg too long.

--
Cheers,
Bev
O_________________________________________________O
"John Wayne toilet paper -- It's rough, it's tough,
and it don't take no crap from nobody."

== 4 of 6 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 14 2009 2:05 pm
From: Dave Garland

The Real Bev wrote:
> If they don't absorb it, why not just spray some vinegar on fresh HB eggs?

They do absorb it, just not very fast. The sticking with fork thing,
I think it speeds it up a wee bit. Not everybody does that,
commercial pickled eggs haven't usually been stuck.

If you rinse a pickled egg off and eat it, it still tastes like a
pickled egg. To my mind, much tastier than plain HB eggs.

But then, I think that just about anything tastes better pickled.

Dave

== 5 of 6 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 14 2009 2:28 pm
From: metspitzer

On Sat, 14 Feb 2009 18:41:36 GMT, blake murphy
<blakepmNOTTHIS@verizon.net> wrote:

>On Fri, 13 Feb 2009 12:59:18 -0800 (PST), James wrote:
>
>> My local Safeway has large eggs on sale this week for 99 cents a
>> dozen.
>>
>> If I cook a bunch of hard boiled eggs would they keep in their shells
>> at room temperature? I don't have room in the fridge.
>
>this is the dope on eggs, according to the f.d.a.:
>
>(U. S. Food and Drug Administration FDA Consumer
>January 1992)
>"Use raw shell eggs within 5 weeks after bringing them home. Use hard-
>cooked eggs (in the shell or peeled) within 1 week after cooking. Use
>leftover yolks and whites within 4 days after removing them from the
>shell."
>
>or, from the current f.d.a site:
>
>Product Refrigerator Freezer
>Eggs
>Fresh, in shell 4 to 5 weeks Don't freeze
>Raw yolks, whites 2 to 4 days 1 year
>Hardcooked 1 week Doesn't freeze well
>
>you can even tell when they are packed:
>
>Dating of Cartons
>Many eggs reach stores only a few days after the hen lays them. Egg
>cartons with the USDA grade shield on them must display the "pack
>date" (the day that the eggs were washed, graded, and placed in the
>carton). The number is a three-digit code that represents the
>consecutive day of the year (the "Julian Date") starting with January
>1 as 001 and ending with December 31 as 365.
>
>Always purchase eggs before the "Sell-By" or "EXP" (expiration) date
>on the carton. After the eggs reach home, they may be refrigerated 3
>to 5 weeks from the day they are placed in the refrigerator. The
>"Sell-By" date will usually expire during that length of time, but the
>eggs are perfectly safe to use. This date is not federally required,
>but may be State required.)
>
>some folks say the f.d.a. recommendations (for almost anything) are too
>conservative, but you should be rock-bottom safe if you follow them.
>
>your pal,
>blake

You should add a handy way to peel them. I tried it, but I don't have
enough blowing power.
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=peel%20eggs&sourceid=navclient-ff&rlz=1B3GGGL_enUS310US310&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wv#q=boiled+eggs&hl=en&emb=0

== 6 of 6 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 14 2009 4:16 pm
From: Sqwertz

brooklyn1 <gravesend10@verizon.net> wrote:

> "Ed Pawlowski" wrote:
>> "brooklyn1" wrote:
>>> "Ed Pawlowski" wote:
>>>> "brooklyn1" wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bear in mind that if you hard-boil them, then you can pile them all in
>>>>>> a vertical container that takes a lot less space than an egg carton.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> That's just silly... any fridge with enough height between shelves to
>>>>> stack a dozen eggs would be humongous, would certainly have room to
>>>>> store eggs the normal way. Six large eggs stacked short side to short
>>>>> side (as in an egg carton) measure like 10". A dozen eggs would need
>>>>> like a 20" long tube...
>>>>
>>>> Talk about silly. Why would they have to be stacked egg on egg? A
>>>> pitcher though, would stack them vertical, yet nested a bit and take
>>>> minimal space. Loosen up your thought process a bit.
>>> Tighten up on your attributions.
>>>
>>
>> Did you not say the above about "That's just silly"?
>>
> You have me attributed to:
> "Bear in mind if you hard-boil them, then you can pile them all in a
> vertical container that takes a lot less space than an egg carton."

And looking back at the thread *you* are the one who broke the
attributions to begin with.

Got anything else you'd like to blame on somebody else?

ObFood: Steak and lubester for dinner tonight.

-sw

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 14 2009 11:49 am
From: OhioGuy

Hmm. It seems like there is really some antagonism over digital TV.
No, the switchover does not solve everything. For some folks, it
actually CAUSES problems.

For example, my grandfather has an antenna rotor, and is able to pull
in about 15 analog channels acceptably, perhaps 10 without moving the
rotor. When he hooked up a digital set top box, suddenly he could only
pull in half as many channels, and some of these occasionally pixellated
out. This was very frustrating to him, and he assumed something was
wrong with the unit. He is approx 60 miles from the nearest
transmitter, but the ground is very flat, and he has a good antenna up
about 50 feet. He is an example of one of the folks that will likely
lose, not gain, when the switchover to digital TV is complete. No
matter what he does with installing preamps and such, I doubt that he'll
ever be able to get as many channels as he got previously.

I had a lot of trouble myself at first, until I found that my
placement of the antenna made a huge difference. I slowly moved the
antenna around until I found a spot where the majority of digital
channels seemed to come in best. It happened to be right against our
window, so I ended up using duct tape to hold it right in that spot,
behind the curtains.

I've noticed that some of the digital receiver set top boxes are
sorely lacking. I've tried 3 different ones before I found one that
satisfied me - the TR-40 CRA, which is about $10 cheaper than the 100%
same thing - DTV Pal, from Dish Network. What I liked about it:

A) pulled in some weaker stations the others did not get

B) it has a REAL program guide. While I can only see about 8 to 12
hours into the future with it right now, the menu says that if the local
channels provide the info, it can show something like 4 days worth of
upcoming info.

C) it has a timer, so you can set up a timed recording, and it will tune
to that channel at that time, & you can use your VCR to record the show.
Just like a VCR, you can set up a one time, daily, weekly, etc.

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 14 2009 2:13 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

OhioGuy wrote:

> Hmm. It seems like there is really some antagonism over digital TV.

There's always some fools that dont understand the basics.

> No, the switchover does not solve everything.

No one ever said it did.

> For some folks, it actually CAUSES problems.

Corse it does, most obviously with those who can only receive analog.

> For example, my grandfather has an antenna rotor, and is able to pull in about 15 analog channels acceptably, perhaps
> 10 without moving the rotor. When he hooked up a digital set top box, suddenly he could only pull in half as many
> channels, and some of these occasionally pixellated out.

Thats usually due to a different effect, the masthead amp.

It can also just be due to there not being the same DTV transmitters as there are analog.

> This was very frustrating to him, and he assumed something was wrong with the unit. He is approx 60 miles from the
> nearest transmitter, but the ground is very flat, and he has
> a good antenna up about 50 feet. He is an example of one of the folks that will likely lose, not gain, when the
> switchover to digital TV is complete.

Nope, plenty of those have found they get a much better result with DTV.

> No matter what he does with installing preamps and such, I doubt that he'll ever be able to get as many channels as he
> got previously.

More fool you. I bet that someone who knows what they are
doing would be able to deliver a better result with DTV as long
as the area he is getting the signals from has just as good DTV
transmitters as analog transmitters.

> I had a lot of trouble myself at first, until I found that my placement of the antenna made a huge difference.

And you may well find that the placement that
works best for analog isnt the best for DTV too.

> I slowly moved the antenna around until I found a spot where the majority of digital channels seemed to come in best.
> It happened to be right against our window, so I ended up using duct tape to hold it right in that spot, behind the
> curtains.

And it isnt necessarily that critical with a decent external antenna.

> I've noticed that some of the digital receiver set top boxes are
> sorely lacking. I've tried 3 different ones before I found one that
> satisfied me - the TR-40 CRA, which is about $10 cheaper than the 100% same thing - DTV Pal, from Dish Network. What
> I liked about it:

> A) pulled in some weaker stations the others did not get

> B) it has a REAL program guide. While I can only see about 8 to 12 hours into the future with it right now, the menu
> says that if the local channels provide the info, it can show something like 4 days worth of upcoming info.

> C) it has a timer, so you can set up a timed recording, and it will
> tune to that channel at that time, & you can use your VCR to record
> the show. Just like a VCR, you can set up a one time, daily, weekly, etc.

Anyone with a clue has given up on VCRs and uses
something a tad more modern, like a PC with DTV cards.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 14 2009 2:48 pm
From: "John A. Weeks III"

In article <gn778t$1hif$1@news.ett.com.ua>, OhioGuy <none@none.net>
wrote:

> Hmm. It seems like there is really some antagonism over digital TV.

You will nearly always be disappointed if you assume that the
typical person ever bothers to use their head to think.

> No, the switchover does not solve everything. For some folks, it
> actually CAUSES problems.

Only for people who depend on an over-the-air signal. That is such
a small slice of the population. You need to consider the greater
good in this case. There will always be people who have problems.
Some people are afraid of indoor plumbing, and some farmers near
where I live still use horses because they are afraid of internal
combustion engines.

> For example, my grandfather has an antenna rotor, and is able to pull
> in about 15 analog channels acceptably, perhaps 10 without moving the
> rotor. When he hooked up a digital set top box, suddenly he could only
> pull in half as many channels, and some of these occasionally pixellated
> out. This was very frustrating to him, and he assumed something was
> wrong with the unit. He is approx 60 miles from the nearest
> transmitter, but the ground is very flat, and he has a good antenna up
> about 50 feet.

How old is his antenna? A lot of existing antennas are designed
for lower TV channel numbers. Feed line that is older has high
loss rates on higher channels. Amplifiers and splitters can
further harm a higher frequency signal. The dynamic that is at
work here is that many of the new DTV channels are much higher
in frequency, and it requires a modern antenna. Your grandfather
needs to ensure that his antenna is optimized for channels 14 to
50. He also needs to make sure that the feed line and any other
components are rated for 1200 megahertz. If his connectors are
not gold plated, they probably are not up to snuff.

> He is an example of one of the folks that will likely
> lose, not gain, when the switchover to digital TV is complete.

So, after making no attempt to understand the technology and
taking no remedial steps, you are ready to call your grandfather
a loser and write off the entire TV industry. Good thing you
weren't around during the early days of cars, or we would still
be talking about buggy whip factories and horse poop cleanup.

> No
> matter what he does with installing preamps and such, I doubt that he'll
> ever be able to get as many channels as he got previously.

Since each DTV channel has at least 2 and sometimes as many as
5 distinct channels, just getting half as many stations will
mean that he has more channels than before.

-john-

--
======================================================================
John A. Weeks III 612-720-2854 john@johnweeks.com
Newave Communications http://www.johnweeks.com
======================================================================

== 1 of 7 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 14 2009 12:13 pm
From: residualselfimage1999@gmail.com

On Feb 14, 12:10 am, "Rod Speed" <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote:
> residualselfimage1...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Feb 13, 10:03 pm, "DanB (Previously DB)" <a...@some.net> wrote:
> >> Mark M. wrote:
> >>> residualselfimage1...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>> On Feb 12, 6:26 am, wis...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> >>>>> All the bailouts... and the stimulii...all the hot air....the
> >>>>> debt... the debt servicing... they DON"T MATTER
>
> >>>>> In the long run it all comes down to loss of US productivity.. the
> >>>>> loss of US created wealth. Unless the US can rebuild its
> >>>>> manufacturing capability it will be a
> >>>>> long slide into a third world level of subsistence.
>
> >>>> China's current economic tumble shows that even
> >>>> a highly productive economy with a high manufacturing
> >>>> capacity does not necessarily adequately protect
> >>>> an economy from a downturn -
>
> >>> China could help itself by having Chinese workers consume more of
> >>> what they produce.
>
> >> I think it may be easer said. They already have a huge wealth
> >> disparity problem. Migrant workers are well off the charts of
> >> affording what they produce. And catching up with the present loss
> >> of exports would require
> >> a big move toward domestic consumption.
>
> >>http://lakeweb.com/money/Social%20Unrest%20in%20China.pdf-
> > Unfortunately, many if not most of china's factory workers are migrant
> > workers coming in from the rural countryside/inner provinces
>
> Yes.
>
> > and are paid very little if they are paid at all.
>
> That last is a mindless pig ignorant lie. They wouldnt be coming
> to the factorys if they werent being paid to work in them.

Aggregate statistics never tell the whole story.
I've been reading reports on a fairly consistent basis
over the last ten years of of different incidents in
China where factory and construction workers
are not paid for several months (they are paid
on a montly basis) and where the employers/owners
have either runaway or declared bankruptcy. During
the economic boom these incidents did occur
because of poor management, weak labor
protection laws, and China's inadequate and
primitive judicial system.

>
> > Their economic condition cannot be improve by waving the
> > magic wand of imports-exports or changing currency evaluation.
>
> Correct.
>
> > The only financial mechanism that has been shown to improve the
> > economic opportunity of the poor has been micro-capitalization
> > (micro-loans) and small business incubator/development
> > programs (which were shown to work in Banglesdesh).
>
> Wrong. The other obvious approach is exports and those working
> in those factorys buying the goods that the factorys produce.
> And they all do that last.

I totally disagree with your assessment.
There is a high distribution and transaction cost to
Import Export - which favors large firms over smaller
firms. For example, while a factory in india could
make and sell pharmaceticals very cheaply in the
USA - they are banned for doing so. Even when
a factory in Canada could make and sell a generic
drug in the USA for very cheap - often a larger
firm will *buy out* (pay a annual stipend) to that
Canadian generic drug maker to NOT make a
particular generic drug - as to create a monopoly
/exclusive market for their existing name brand
designer drug. In addition, dual use technology
restrictions limit many technologies from being
exported in the USA, e.g. advance GPS
equipment or encryption security programs.
One has to go through an array of regulatory
barriers to import or export a motor vehicle -
such initial cost is too high for most smaller firms.

>
> > Economic opportunity is not created by giving money or credit to large corporations
>
> Corse it is.
>
> > or by every single person.
>
> That can do it too, particularly when they dont have large debts that they choose to pay down instead.

Economic opportunity is not only limited
by debt and capital but by other legal matters
that are directly linked to our way of governing.
The USA economy is not driven by free markets but
by technological/intellectual property based
monopolies, e.g. copyrighted images like
"mickey mouse" and patents for microprocessors
to hybrid corn seeds.

In addition, another hi-profit part
of the US economy is based on
government handouts/licenses/grants,
e.g. a radio frequency-bandwidth to make public
broadcast, rights to harvest trees from public
lands, rights to mine for minerals from public
lands, the right to graze cattle over public
lands, and/or to fish along the coast.

>
> > Rather economic growth and opportunity is found by searching for
> > and empowering those relationships which are capable for providing
> > services and products that the market/community needs and desires.
>
> Thats just one approach that works too.
>
> > Empowerment involves extension of credit, market access, transfer of skills, and soforth.
>
> And is just one approach that works.-

== 2 of 7 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 14 2009 12:48 pm
From: "Morton Davis"

"Fritz Wuehler" <fritz@spamexpire-200902.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> wrote
in message
news:fd5a3afc20f1c160c83e49b18d0b74f7@msgid.frell.theremailer.net...
> In article <john-25663E.07244912022009@news-1.octanews.net>
> "John A. Weeks III" <j...@johnweeks.com> wrote:
>>
>> In article <mh18p41mdshngs44ptbhnfq1rtq4iqs...@4ax.com>,
>> wis...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>
>> > In the long run it all comes down to loss of US productivity.. the
>> > loss of US created wealth.
>>
>> Ummm, worker productivity has been at an all time high for quite
>> some time, and has been surging ahead over the past few months.
>> There is no issue with productivity.
>>
>> > Unless the US can rebuild its manufacturing capability it will be a
>> > long slide into a third world level of subsistence.
>>
>> Ummm, the US is at an all time high for manufacturing at the moment.
>> We manufacture far more than we did in 15 years ago. That is now
>> an issue right now.
>>
>> > The only solution is to withdarw from the WTO and allow US workers -
>> > and only US workers - the ability to make this country into a
>> > powerhouse again
>>
>> That sounds like the old burry you head in the sand and hope it
>> goes away theory. Good luck with that.
>>
>> -john-
>>
>> --
>> ======================================================================
>> John A. Weeks III 612-720-2854 j...@johnweeks.com
>> Newave Communications http://www.johnweeks.com
>> ======================================================================
>
> Of course you are referring to the producing of theft, the production of
> commercial corporate owned Faux news,

Who the fuck do you think owns ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN?

== 3 of 7 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 14 2009 1:13 pm
From: "RD (The Sandman)"

"Morton Davis" <antikerry@go.com> wrote in
news:66Gll.516416$TT4.217959@attbi_s22:

>
> "Fritz Wuehler" <fritz@spamexpire-200902.rodent.frell.theremailer.net>
> wrote in message
> news:fd5a3afc20f1c160c83e49b18d0b74f7@msgid.frell.theremailer.net...
>> In article <john-25663E.07244912022009@news-1.octanews.net>
>> "John A. Weeks III" <j...@johnweeks.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> In article <mh18p41mdshngs44ptbhnfq1rtq4iqs...@4ax.com>,
>>> wis...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>
>>> > In the long run it all comes down to loss of US productivity.. the
>>> > loss of US created wealth.
>>>
>>> Ummm, worker productivity has been at an all time high for quite
>>> some time, and has been surging ahead over the past few months.
>>> There is no issue with productivity.
>>>
>>> > Unless the US can rebuild its manufacturing capability it will be
>>> > a long slide into a third world level of subsistence.
>>>
>>> Ummm, the US is at an all time high for manufacturing at the moment.
>>> We manufacture far more than we did in 15 years ago. That is now
>>> an issue right now.
>>>
>>> > The only solution is to withdarw from the WTO and allow US workers
>>> > - and only US workers - the ability to make this country into a
>>> > powerhouse again
>>>
>>> That sounds like the old burry you head in the sand and hope it
>>> goes away theory. Good luck with that.
>>>
>>> -john-
>>>
>>> --
>>> =====================================================================
>>> = John A. Weeks III 612-720-2854
>>> j...@johnweeks.com Newave Communications
>>> http://www.johnweeks.com
>>> =====================================================================
>>> =
>>
>> Of course you are referring to the producing of theft, the production
>> of commercial corporate owned Faux news,
>
> Who the fuck do you think owns ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN?

Oh, god, you are asking him to think........

--
Sleep well tonight.........RD (The Sandman)

http://home.comcast.net/~rdsandman

"Be who you are and say what you feel...Because those that
matter...don't mind...And those that mind...don't matter."

== 4 of 7 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 14 2009 1:24 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

residualselfimage1999@gmail.com wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote
>> residualselfimage1...@gmail.com wrote
>>> DanB (Previously DB) <a...@some.net> wrote
>>>> Mark M. wrote
>>>>> residualselfimage1...@gmail.com wrote
>>>>>> wis...@yahoo.com wrote

>>>>>>> All the bailouts... and the stimulii...all the hot air....
>>>>>>> the debt... the debt servicing... they DON"T MATTER

>>>>>>> In the long run it all comes down to loss of US productivity..
>>>>>>> the loss of US created wealth. Unless the US can rebuild
>>>>>>> its manufacturing capability it will be a long slide into a
>>>>>>> third world level of subsistence.

>>>>>> China's current economic tumble shows that even
>>>>>> a highly productive economy with a high manufacturing
>>>>>> capacity does not necessarily adequately protect
>>>>>> an economy from a downturn -

>>>>> China could help itself by having Chinese workers consume more of
>>>>> what they produce.

>>>> I think it may be easer said. They already have a huge wealth
>>>> disparity problem. Migrant workers are well off the charts of
>>>> affording what they produce. And catching up with the present loss
>>>> of exports would require a big move toward domestic consumption.

>>>> http://lakeweb.com/money/Social%20Unrest%20in%20China.pdf-
>>> Unfortunately, many if not most of china's factory workers are
>>> migrant workers coming in from the rural countryside/inner provinces

>> Yes.

>>> and are paid very little if they are paid at all.

>> That last is a mindless pig ignorant lie. They wouldnt be coming
>> to the factorys if they werent being paid to work in them.

> Aggregate statistics never tell the whole story.

Never said anything about any aggregate statistics.

If many of those migrant workers werent being paid at all,
you would not have seen tens of millions of them moving
from the rural countryside/inner provinces to the factorys.

> I've been reading reports on a fairly consistent basis
> over the last ten years of of different incidents in China
> where factory and construction workers are not paid for
> several months (they are paid on a montly basis)

That does NOT mean that they werent ever paid at all.

> and where the employers/owners have
> either runaway or declared bankruptcy.

Sure, but while that certainly happens, it cant be happening
to the bulk of those migrant workers or we woudnt have
seen tens of millions of them moving from the rural
countryside/inner provinces to the factorys.

> During the economic boom these incidents did occur
> because of poor management, weak labor protection
> laws, and China's inadequate and primitive judicial system.

>>> Their economic condition cannot be improve by waving the
>>> magic wand of imports-exports or changing currency evaluation.

>> Correct.

>>> The only financial mechanism that has been shown to improve the
>>> economic opportunity of the poor has been micro-capitalization
>>> (micro-loans) and small business incubator/development
>>> programs (which were shown to work in Banglesdesh).

>> Wrong. The other obvious approach is exports and those working
>> in those factorys buying the goods that the factorys produce.
>> And they all do that last.

> I totally disagree with your assessment.

Doesnt change a thing.

> There is a high distribution and transaction cost to Import Export

Wrong again. You can deal with them yourself any time using ebay.

> - which favors large firms over smaller firms.

You still see plenty using ebay anyway.

> For example, while a factory in india could
> make and sell pharmaceticals very cheaply
> in the USA - they are banned for doing so.

And no one bans most of what china exports.

> Even when a factory in Canada could make and sell
> a generic drug in the USA for very cheap - often a
> larger firm will *buy out* (pay a annual stipend) to that
> Canadian generic drug maker to NOT make a particular
> generic drug - as to create a monopoly/exclusive market
> for their existing name brand designer drug.

Doesnt apply to the vast bulk of what china exports.

Thats as silly as claiming that just because heroin or
cocaine trafficking is banned, that has any relevance
what so ever to what china can export fine.

> In addition, dual use technology restrictions
> limit many technologies from being
> exported in the USA, e.g. advance GPS
> equipment or encryption security programs.
> One has to go through an array of regulatory
> barriers to import or export a motor vehicle -
> such initial cost is too high for most smaller firms.

Pity about all the rest of china's exports where that doesnt apply.

>>> Economic opportunity is not created by giving money or credit to large corporations

>> Corse it is.

>>> or by every single person.

>> That can do it too, particularly when they dont have
>> large debts that they choose to pay down instead.

> Economic opportunity is not only limited
> by debt and capital but by other legal matters
> that are directly linked to our way of governing.

Irrelevant to what china can do to boost its economy.

> The USA economy is not driven by free markets but by
> technological/intellectual property based monopolies,

Wrong again. The absolute vast bulk of the US economy
is actually driven by services which arent even licensed.

> e.g. copyrighted images like "mickey mouse" and
> patents for microprocessors to hybrid corn seeds.

Thats a trivial part of the total US economy.

> In addition, another hi-profit part of the US economy
> is based on government handouts/licenses/grants,
> e.g. a radio frequency-bandwidth to make public
> broadcast, rights to harvest trees from public
> lands, rights to mine for minerals from public
> lands, the right to graze cattle over public
> lands, and/or to fish along the coast.

Also a trivial part of the total US economy.

>>> Rather economic growth and opportunity is found by searching for
>>> and empowering those relationships which are capable for providing
>>> services and products that the market/community needs and desires.

>> Thats just one approach that works too.

>>> Empowerment involves extension of credit, market access, transfer of skills, and soforth.

>> And is just one approach that works.-

== 5 of 7 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 14 2009 3:27 pm
From: zzbunker

On Feb 12, 6:26 am, wis...@yahoo.com wrote:
> All the bailouts... and the stimulii...all the hot air....the debt...
> the debt servicing... they DON"T MATTER
>
> In the long run it all comes down to loss of US productivity.. the
> loss of US created wealth.
> Unless the US can rebuild its manufacturing capability it will be a
> long slide into a third world level of subsistence.

Well, the USian idlots have been so anti-work, anti-industry, anti-
thinking,
anti-profit for so long. That's mostly why the people with brains
just work on
post McDonald's robots GPS, Pv Cells, laser-guided masers,
On-Line Banking, On-Line Publishing, and RISC++++ anymore.
And just let the Eve Stooge neo-stooges work on neo->

>
> Generating paper has never saved a country from its expoitators.
>
> The only solution is to withdarw from the WTO and allow US workers -
> and only US workers - the ability to make this country into a
> powerhouse again
>
> This morning I was reading Sen. Leathy's comments supporting
> immigration "reform". The old degenerate wants more immigrants!
>
> http://www.numbersusa.com/ Numbers USA
>
> http://www.wvwnews.net/ Western Voices World News
>
> ted

== 6 of 7 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 14 2009 4:22 pm
From: "Bill Bonde { No matter what happens, it's caused by global warming )"

"John A. Weeks III" wrote:
>
> In article <mh18p41mdshngs44ptbhnfq1rtq4iqsbf7@4ax.com>,
> wismel@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > In the long run it all comes down to loss of US productivity.. the
> > loss of US created wealth.
>
> Ummm, worker productivity has been at an all time high for quite
> some time, and has been surging ahead over the past few months.
> There is no issue with productivity.
>
> > Unless the US can rebuild its manufacturing capability it will be a
> > long slide into a third world level of subsistence.
>
> Ummm, the US is at an all time high for manufacturing at the moment.
> We manufacture far more than we did in 15 years ago. That is now
> an issue right now.
>
> > The only solution is to withdarw from the WTO and allow US workers -
> > and only US workers - the ability to make this country into a
> > powerhouse again
>
> That sounds like the old burry you head in the sand and hope it
> goes away theory. Good luck with that.
>
There is an issue with regards to the balance of trade. For some
reason the Chinese economy is tanking, imports are going down, and
yet they are still running about a $30bn a month trade surplus.
Meanwhile the people are starving. How about employing Americans to
grow some food and sell it to China? The blackhole that this money
is going into needs to stop.

== 7 of 7 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 14 2009 4:23 pm
From: "Bill Bonde { No matter what happens, it's caused by global warming )"

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 14 2009 12:20 pm
From: Dan

on 2/14/09 11:28 AM Igor The Terrible said the following:
> On Feb 13, 8:40 pm, phil scott <p...@philscott.net> wrote:
>> On Feb 13, 2:14 am, Igor The Terrible
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> <igor_the_terri...@mad.scientist.com> wrote:
>>> On Feb 13, 5:01 am, wis...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 12 Feb 2009 23:45:15 -0500, Test User <T...@NosSpam.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> It's all falling apart, isn't it?
>>>>> I've been taking a look at the big picture again lately and forgive me
>>>>> if I speak the obvious but, it's all falling apart. America. It's
>>>>> falling apart.
>>>>> We have Ivy League Schools whose graduates are dumber than sand. Need
>>>>> proof? Look at the financial debacle. These Ivy League Bankers, Brokers
>>>>> and Money Managers were too friggin stupid to figure out they were
>>>>> running themselves into bankruptcy!
>>>>> Many of today's American businessmen who aren't outright stupid, are
>>>>> turning out to be sociopaths; brazenly robbing, defrauding and scamming
>>>>> anyone they can. Take the head of AIG for example; such a schemer that
>>>>> he wrecked his company by intentionally doing business in such a way as
>>>>> to make bigger bonuses for himself. Same thing with the top guys in
>>>>> Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.
>>>>> These guys ran their companies right into Bankruptcy just to enrich
>>>>> themselves.
>>>>> American public school kids are graduating high schools and even
>>>>> colleges so dumb that most of them cannot find their own home states on
>>>>> an unlabeled map! A whole slew of them can't do basic calculus and their
>>>>> ability to spell or think critically is virtually non-existent.
>>>>> We have a government that is spending so much money there isn't enough
>>>>> on the entire planet to lend to them, so they have to print their own
>>>>> just to keep pace. That can't last much longer.
>>>>> We have millions of diseased, uneducated illegal aliens in the country
>>>>> who have brought with them their filthy, third-world cultures. These
>>>>> pieces of human filth have caused resurgence in diseases like polio,
>>>>> long cured from this land!
>>>>> We treat homosexuals like they're some sort of gift instead of a plague;
>>>>> and in some places, the boards of education are unleashing these
>>>>> sodomites on young school children to "teach them" about the so-called
>>>>> "alternative lifestyle."
>>>>> If you dare speak out about this stuff, you're smeared as a 'hater" or
>>>>> racist, bigot, homophobe or some other such thing.
>>>>> Things are so bad on so many levels that I no longer recognize my own
>>>>> country. Somethings gotta give. This cannot go on.
>>>> When the unemployment rate gets to 10% it should get America's
>>>> attention. Yes, America is in decline via dilution of it's european
>>>> population. (yes, means White!)
>>>> ted
>>>> sites to visit:
>>>> http://www.wvw.net/ Western Voices World News
>>>> http://www.newnation.org/ New Nation News- Hide quoted text -
>>>> - Show quoted text -
>>> So...........? Big deal. The rest of the world's human population
>>> is still thriving.-
>> not actually thriving if you take a closer look.
>>
>> Im an old time contractor type, industrial systems and controls, semi
>> retired now.. I spend a lot of time in starbucks when im on a
>> project... a good drill is to notice whom there you think you could
>> hire to do what you need done..... any high end skill or even mid
>> range trade, you dont see many options running around lattely
>>
>> ask any employer.... in the EU also, over run these days my people
>> from the middle east out breeding the natives eight to one; and not
>> adapting to the culture, instead rioting
>>
>> Phil scott
>> Hide quoted text -
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> That is what I was saying. Nothing to do from an economic point of
> view. Just breeding. I think I elaborated on that point somewhere
> else in this thread.
>
> On that same note you are right about the skill sets. More people
> seem to be shying away from the trades these days.

Breeding is directly related economics. See Pay-As-You-Go if you don't
understand it.

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 14 2009 12:22 pm
From: Dan

on 2/14/09 1:43 PM Dave Garland said the following:
> fang wrote:
>> Dave wrote
>>
>>>>> and when those statistics add in discouraged workers?
>>>> Those aint the unemployed, those are the discouraged. We have different words for a reason, stupid.
>>> People who want to work but can't find a job. Much of them are called unemployed.
>> Those who are no longer looking for work for whatever reason, arent unemployed.
>
> "Employed" is logically a true-false item. You're either employed
> (have a job) or you're unemployed (don't have a job). One can
> usefully further subdivide into categories of reasons (a 4-year-old is
> unemployed, but for these purposes maybe doesn't count as a human
> being). Someone who can only find 8 hours work per week is employed,
> but probably not adequately.
>
> There are different ways to count. The US Government has six
> different scales. The number they mostly use in news releases is
> "U3", which ignores people who have stopped looking for work. But U4
> and U5 count those people as unemployed. (U6 also counts people who
> work part-time but can't find full-time work.) It looks like some of
> the measures don't count military or people working on farms.
>
>> Nope, we have different words for the different groups of people for a reason, stupid.
>
> Indeed. As stupid as it is to think that there's only one way to
> measure the number.
>
> Another Dave

Just forget the unemployment rate. Look at your TOTAL TAXATION AND FEES
hit. That is directly correlated to the DOLE TRAIN.

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 14 2009 2:21 pm
From: Dave Garland

Dan wrote:

> Just forget the unemployment rate. Look at your TOTAL TAXATION AND FEES
> hit. That is directly correlated to the DOLE TRAIN.

If you include Halliburton and the military in the "dole train"
(invading and occupying foreign countries doesn't come cheap), along
with wealthy sports team owners who get tax money to build stadiums
with, and greedy business owners who demand tax breaks for their
business (so that the rest of us have to carry their share), and the
bankers who get multimillion dollar bonuses when their banks go down
the tubes (we have to bail them out because the Bushies failed to
regulate the banks), and the auto drivers who expect to have their
travel subsidized (gas tax only pays about half of the cost). And the
places where politicians let the infrastructure go to hell rather than
spending the money necessary to maintain it. Ya, the "dole train" is
pretty big. Personally, it ticks me off more when it's the rich with
their hands out.

Dave

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 14 2009 3:11 pm
From: Dan

on 2/14/09 4:21 PM Dave Garland said the following:
> Dan wrote:
>
>> Just forget the unemployment rate. Look at your TOTAL TAXATION AND FEES
>> hit. That is directly correlated to the DOLE TRAIN.
>
> If you include Halliburton and the military in the "dole train"
> (invading and occupying foreign countries doesn't come cheap), along
> with wealthy sports team owners who get tax money to build stadiums
> with, and greedy business owners who demand tax breaks for their
> business (so that the rest of us have to carry their share), and the
> bankers who get multimillion dollar bonuses when their banks go down
> the tubes (we have to bail them out because the Bushies failed to
> regulate the banks), and the auto drivers who expect to have their
> travel subsidized (gas tax only pays about half of the cost). And the
> places where politicians let the infrastructure go to hell rather than
> spending the money necessary to maintain it. Ya, the "dole train" is
> pretty big. Personally, it ticks me off more when it's the rich with
> their hands out.
>
> Dave

And all of that is reflected total taxes and fees (look at your
receipts!). I am trying to figure out where to move, but it seems the
whole world is jumping on the Dole Train.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Countrywide/First USA End 2% Cash Rebate Visa
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/146678885dbd4ff4?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 14 2009 1:08 pm
From: The Real Bev

h wrote:

> "SMS" <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote in message
> news:_QCll.20386$Ws1.17147@nlpi064.nbdc.sbc.com...
>>I knew that it was too good to last. I got a letter telling me that the 2%
>>cash rebate is history on March 29th. This was the best credit card cash
>>rebate program available.
>
> My BoA card is 5% on the things I buy most, 1% on everything else. It has a
> one category 5% option and I choose the category.

Last time I checked, my BofA card gave me nothing so I never use it. Gotta give
'em a call...

--
Cheers,
Bev
O_________________________________________________O
"John Wayne toilet paper -- It's rough, it's tough,
and it don't take no crap from nobody."

==============================================================================
TOPIC: The Problem With Whites ( Kevin MacDonald )
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/1dffaa9574b66c0c?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 14 2009 4:11 pm
From: hpope@lycos.com

On Feb 14, 3:31 pm, jazzerci...@hotmail.com (-) wrote:
> http://www.rense.com/general85/prob.htm
>
> The Problem With Whites
> By Kevin MacDonald
> 2-13-9
>
> America will soon have a white minority. This is a much desired state of
> affairs for the hostile elites who hold political power and shape public
> opinion. But it certainly creates some management issues - at least in the
> long run. After all, it's difficult to come up with an historical example of a
> nation with a solid ethnic majority (90% white in 1950) that has voluntarily
> decided to cede political and cultural power. Such transformations are
> typically accomplished by military invasions, great battles, and untold
> suffering.
>
> And it's not as if everyone is doing it. Only Western nations view their own
> demographic and cultural eclipse as a moral imperative. Indeed, as I have
> noted previously, it is striking that racial nationalism has triumphed in
> Israel at the same time that the Jewish intellectual and political movements
> and the organized Jewish community have been the most active and effective
> force for a non- white America. Indeed, a poll in 2008 found that Avigdor
> Lieberman was the second most popular politician in Israel. Lieberman has
> advocated expulsion of Arabs from Israel and has declared himself a follower
> of Vladimir Jabotinsky, the leading pioneer of racial Zionism. The most
> popular politician in the poll was Benjamin Netanyahu - another admirer of
> Jabotinsky. Prime Minister Ehud Olmert and Foreign Minister Tzipi Li vni are
> also Jabotinskyists.
>
> The racial Zionists are now carrying out yet another orgy of mass murder after
> a starvation-inducing blockade and the usual triggering assault designed to
> provoke Palestinian retaliation - which then becomes the cover for claims that
> Israel is merely defending itself against terrorism. This monstrosity was
> approved by overwhelming majorities of both Houses of Congress. The craven
> Bush administration did its part by abstaining from a UN resolution designed
> by the US Secretary of State as a result of a personal appeal by the Israeli
> Prime Minister. This is yet another accomplishment of the Israel Lobby, but
> one they would rather not have discussed in public. People might get the
> impression that the Lobby really does dictate US foreign policy in the
> Mideast. Obviously, such thoughts are only entertained by anti-Semites.
>
> But I digress.
>
> In managing the eclipse of white America, one strategy of the mainstream media
> is to simply ignore the issue. Christopher Donovan ("For the media, the less
> whites think about their coming minority status, the better") has noted that
> the media, and in particular, the New York Times, are quite uninterested in
> doing stories that discuss what white people think about this state of
> affairs.
>
> t's not surprising that the New York Times - the Jewish-owned flagship of
> anti-white, pro-multicultural media - ignores the issue. The issue is also
> missing from so-called conservative media even though one would think that
> conservatives would find the eclipse of white America to be an important
> issue. Certainly, their audiences would find it interesting.
>
> Now we have an article "The End of White America" written by Hua Hsu, an
> Assistant Professor of English at Vassar College. The article is a rather
> depressing display of what passes for intellectual discourse on the most
> important question confronting white people in America.
>
> Hsu begins by quoting a passage in F. Scott Fitzgerald's The Great Gatsby in
> which a character, Tom Buchanan, states: "Have you read The Rise of the
> Colored Empires by this man Goddard?" Well, it's a fine book, and everybody
> ought to read it. The idea is if we don't look out the white race will be-will
> be utterly submerged. It's all scientific stuff; it's been proved."
>
> Buchanan's comment is a thinly veiled reference to Lothrop Stoddard's The
> Rising Tide of Color which Hsu describes as "rationalized hatred" presented in
> a scholarly, gentlemanly, and scientific tone. (This wording that will
> certainly help him when he comes up for tenure.) As Hsu notes, Stoddard had a
> doctorate from Harvard and was a member of many academic associations. His
> book was published by a major publisher. It was therefore "precisely the kind
> of book that a 1920s man of Buchanan's profile - wealthy, Ivy Leagueeducated,
> at once pretentious and intellectually insecure - might have been expected to
> bring up in casual conversation."
>
> Let's ponder that a bit. The simple reality is that in the year 2009 an Ivy
> League-educated person, "at once pretentious and intellectually insecure,"
> would just as glibly assert the same sort of nonsense as Hsu. To wit:
>
> The coming white minority does not mean that the racial hierarchy of American
> culture will suddenly become inverted, as in 1995's White Man's Burden, an
> awful thought experiment of a film, starring John Travolta, that envisions an
> upside-down world in which whites are subjugated to their high-class black
> oppressors. There will be dislocations and resentments along the way, but the
> demographic shifts of the next 40 years are likely to reduce the power of
> racial hierarchies over everyone's lives, producing a culture that's more
> likely than any before to treat its inhabitants as individuals, rather than
> members of a caste or identity group.
>
> The fact is that no one can say for certain what multicultural America without
> a white majority will be like. There is no scientific or historical basis for
> claims like "the demographic shifts of the next 40 years are likely to reduce
> the power of racial hierarchies over everyone's lives, producing a culture
> that's more likely than any before to treat its inhabitants as individuals,
> rather than members of a caste or identity group."
>
> Indeed, there is no evidence at all that we are proceeding to a color blind
> future. The election results continue to show that white people are coalescing
> in the Republican Party, while the Democrats are increasingly the party of a
> non-white soon-to-be majority.
>
> Is it so hard to believe that when this coalition achieves a majority that it
> will further compromise the interests of whites far beyond contemporary
> concerns such as immigration policy and affirmative action? Hsu anticipates a
> colorblind world, but affirmative action means that blacks and other
> minorities are certainly not treated as individuals. And it means that whites
> - especially white males - are losing out on opportunities they would have had
> without these policies and without the massive non- white immigration of the
> last few decades.
>
> Given the intractability of changing intelligence and other traits required
> for success in the contemporary economy, it is unlikely that 40 more years of
> affirmative action will attain the outcomes desired by the minority lobbies.
> Indeed, in Obama's America, blacks are rioting in Oakland over perceived
> racial injustices, and from 2002 2007, black juvenile homicide victims
> increased 31%, while black juvenile perpetrators increased 43%. Hence, the
> reasonable outlook is for a continuing need for affirmative action and for
> racial activism in these groups, even after whites become a minority.
>
> Whites will also lose out because of large-scale importation of relatively
> talented immigrants from East Asia. Indeed, as I noted over a decade ago, "The
> United States is well on the road to being dominated by an Asian technocratic
> elite and a Jewish business, professional, and media elite."
>
> Hsu shows that there already is considerable anxiety among whites about the
> future. An advertizing executive says, "I think white people feel like they're
> under siege right now - like it's not okay to be white right now, especially
> if you're a white male. ... People are stressed out about it. `We used to be
> in control! We're losing control'" Another says, "There's a lot of fear and a
> lot of resentment."
>
> It's hard to see why these feelings won't increase in the future.
>
> A huge problem for white people is lack of intellectual and cultural
> confidence. Hsu quotes Christian (Stuff White People Like) Lander saying, "I
> get it: as a straight white male, I'm the worst thing on Earth." A professor
> comments that for his students "to be white is to be culturally broke. The
> classic thing white students say when you ask them to talk about who they are
> is, `I don't have a culture.' They might be privileged, they might be loaded
> socioeconomically, but they feel bankrupt when it comes to culture They feel
> disadvantaged, and they feel marginalized."
>
> This lack of cultural confidence is no accident. For nearly 100 years whites
> have been subjected to a culture of critique emanating from the most
> prestigious academic and media institutions. And, as Hsu points out, the most
> vibrant and influential aspect of American popular culture is hip-hop-a
> product of the African American urban culture.
>
> The only significant group of white people with any cultural confidence
> centers itself around country music, NASCAR, and the small town values of
> traditional white America. For this group of whites - and only this group -
> there is "a racial pride that dares not speak its name, and that defines
> itself through cultural cues instead-a suspicion of intellectual elites and
> city dwellers, a preference for folksiness and plainness of speech (whether
> real or feigned), and the association of a working-class white minority with
> 'the real America.'"
>
> This is what I term implicit whiteness - implicit because explicit assertions
> of white identity have been banned by the anti- white elites that dominate our
> politics and culture. It is a culture that, as Hsu notes, "cannot speak its
> name."
>
> But that implies that the submerged white identity of the white working class
> and the lack of cultural confidence exhibited by the rest of white America are
> imposed from outside. Although there may well be characteristics of whites
> that facilitate this process, this suppression of white identity and interests
> is certainly not the natural outcome of modernization or any other force
> internal to whites as a people. In my opinion, they are the result of the
> successful erection of a culture of critique in the West dominated by Jewish
> intellectual and political movements.
>
> The result is that educated, intellectually insecure white people these days
> are far more likely to believe in the utopian future described by Hsu than in
> hard and cautious thinking about what the future might have in store for them.
>
> It's worth dwelling a bit on the intellectual insecurity of the whites who
> mindlessly utter the mantras of multiculturalism that they have soaked up from
> the school system and from the media. Most people do not have much confidence
> in their intellectual ability and look to elite opinion to shape their
> beliefs. As I noted elsewhere,
>
> A critical component of the success of the culture of critique is that it
> achieved control of the most prestigious and influential institutions of the
> West, and it became a consensus among the elites, Jewish and non-Jewish alike.
> Once this happened, it is not surprising that this culture became widely
> accepted among people of very different levels of education and among people
> of different social classes.
>
> Most people are quite insecure about their intellectual ability. But they know
> that the professors at Harvard, and the editorial page of the New York Times
> and the Washington Post, and even conservative commentators like Rush Limbaugh
> and Sean Hannity are all on page when it comes to racial and ethnic issues.
> This is a formidable array, to the point that you almost have to be a crank to
> dissent from this consensus.
>
> I think one of the greatest triumphs of the left has been to get people to
> believe that people who assert white identity and interests or who make
> unflattering portrayals of organized Jewish movements are morally degenerate,
> stupid, and perhaps psychiatrically disturbed. Obviously, all of these
> adjectives designate low status.
>
> The reality is that the multicultural emperor has no clothes and, because of
> its support for racial Zionism and the racialism of ethnic minorities in
> America, it is massively hypocritical to boot. The New York Times, the
> academic left, and the faux conservatives that dominate elite discourse on
> race and ethnicity are intellectually bankrupt and can only remain in power by
> ruthlessly suppressing or ignoring the scientific findings.
>
> This is particularly a problem for college-educated whites. Like Fitzgerald's
> Tom Buchanan, such people have a strong need to feel that their ideas are
> respectable and part of the mainstream. But the respectable mainstream gives
> them absolutely nothing with which to validate themselves except perhaps the
> idea that the world will be a better place when people like them no longer
> have power. Hsu quotes the pathetic Christian Lander: ""Like, I'm aware of all
> the horrible crimes that my demographic has done in the world. ... And there's
> a bunch of white people who are desperate - desperate - to say, `You know
> what? My skin's white, but I'm not one of the white people who's destroying
> the world.'"
>
> As a zombie leftist during the 1960s and 1970s, I know what that feeling of
> desperation is like - what it's like to be a self- hating white. We must get
> to the point where college-educated whites proudly and confidently say they
> are white and that they do not want to become a minority in America.
>
> This reminds me of the recent docudrama Milk, which depicts the life of gay
> activist Harvey Milk. Milk is sure be nominated for an Oscar as Best Picture
> because it lovingly illustrates a triumph of the cultural left. But is has an
> important message that should resonate with the millions of whites who have
> been deprived of their confidence and their culture: Be explicit. Just as
> Harvey Milk advocated being openly gay even in the face of dire consequences,
> whites need to tell their family and their friends that they have an identity
> as a white person and believe that whites have legitimate interests as white
> people. They must accept the consequences when they are harassed, fired from
> their jobs, or put in prison for such beliefs. They must run for political
> office as openly pro-white.
>
> Milk shows that homosexuals were fired from their jobs and arrested for
> congregating in public. Now it's the Southern Poverty Law Center and the rest
> of the leftist intellectual and political establishment that harasses and
> attempts to get people fired. But it's the same situation with the roles
> reversed. No revolution was ever accomplished without some martyrs. The
> revolution that restores the legitimacy of white identity and the legitimacy
> of white interests will be no exception.
>
> But it is a revolution that is absolutely necessary. The white majority is
> foolish indeed to entrust its future to a utopian hope that racial and ethnic
> identifications will disappear and that they won't continue to influence
> public policy in ways that compromise the interests of whites.
>
> It does not take an overactive imagination to see that coalitions of minority
> groups could compromise the interests of formerly dominant whites. We already
> see numerous examples in which coalitions of minority groups attempt to
> influence public policy, including immigration policy, against the interests
> of the whites. Placing ourselves in a position of vulnerability would be
> extremely risky, given the deep sense of historical grievance harbored by many
> ethnic activists and organized ethnic lobbies.
>
> This is especially the case with Jews. Jewish organisations have been
> unanimous in condemning Western societies, Western traditions, and
> Christianity, for past crimes against Jews. Similar sentiments are typical of
> a great many African Americans and Latinos, and especially among the ethnic
> activists from these groups. The "God damn America" sermon by President
> Obama's pastor comes to mind as a recent notorious example.
>
> The precedent of the early decades of the Soviet Union should give pause to
> anyone who believes that surrendering ethnic hegemony does not carry risks.
> The Bolshevik revolution had a pronounced ethnic angle: To a very great
> extent, Jews and other non-Russians ruled over the Russian people, with
> disastrous consequences for the Russians and other ethnic groups that were not
> able to become part of the power structure. Jews formed a hostile elite within
> this power structure - as they will in the future white-minority America; Jews
> were "Stalin's willing executioners."
>
> Two passages from my review of Yuri Slezkine's The Jewish Century seem
> particularly appropriate here. The first passage reminds me of the many
> American Jews who adopt a veneer of support for causes of leftist versions of
> social justice and racial tolerance while nevertheless managing to support
> racial Zionism and the mass murder, torture, and incarceration of the
> Palestinians. Such people may be very different when they become a hostile
> elite in a white-minority America.
>
> Many of the commentators on Jewish Bolsheviks noted the "transformation" of
> Jews [after the Bolshevik Revolution]. In the words of [a] Jewish commentator,
> G. A. Landau, "cruelty, sadism, and violence had seemed alien to a nation so
> far removed from physical activity." And another Jewish commentator, Ia. A.
> Bromberg, noted that: the formerly oppressed lover of liberty had turned into
> a tyrant of "unheard-of-despotic arbitrariness". The convinced and
> unconditional opponent of the death penalty not just for political crimes but
> for the most heinous offenses, who could not, as it were, watch a chicken
> being killed, has been transformed outwardly into a leather-clad person with a
> revolver and, in fact, lost all human likeness. ...
>
> After the Revolution, ... there was active suppression of any remnants of the
> older order and their descendants. ... The mass murder of peasants and
> nationalists was combined with the systematic exclusion of the previously
> existing non-Jewish middle class. The wife of a Leningrad University professor
> noted, "in all the institutions, only workers and Israelites are admitted; the
> life of the intelligentsia is very hard" (p. 243). Even at the end of the
> 1930s, prior to the Russification that accompanied World War II, "the Russian
> Federationwas still doing penance for its imperial past while also serving as
> an example of an ethnicity- free society" (p. 276). While all other
> nationalities, including Jews, were allowed and encouraged to keep their
> ethnic identities, the revolution remained an anti-majoritarian movement.
>
> The difference from the Soviet Union may well be that in white- minority
> America it will not be workers and Israelites who are favored, but non-whites
> and Israelites. Whites may dream that they are entering the post-racial utopia
> imagined by their erstwhile intellectual superiors. But it is quite possible
> that they are entering into a racial dystopia of unimaginable cruelty in which
> whites will be systematically excluded in favor of the new elites recruited
> from the soon-to-be majority. It's happened before.
>
> Kevin MacDonald is a professor of psychology at California State
> UniversityLong Beach.
>
> http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/articles/MacDonald-Hsu.html
>
> Disclaimer
>
> MainPagehttp://www.rense.com
>
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Take some time to read this article which offers real
insights.

mitch

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Oil Prices Down but Gas Prices Up !
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/e844507e22b0cdc6?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 14 2009 4:20 pm
From: "Bay Area Holdout"

<Noveau67@aol.com> wrote in message
news:56a093f7-67ef-4e55-97ae-eb489bc69a74@s20g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
> Well, it was nice to see gas plummet down to $1.57. The "pump and
> dump" folks on Wall Street made their money on the up tick, and also
> on the down tick, via shorting, and knowing in advance when to short
> it, of course.
>
> Now the oil companies are openly admitting they are REDUCING THE
> SUPPLY of gas they are refining, in order to get the price up. There
> was an article in Yahoo Finance about it.
>
>
> They are getting away with it again. They act together to reduce the
> supply. All one big happy greedy family.

In the 10 days since my last fill-up(we get 40mpg in our car), price at the
same station went UP another 14 cents. These increases (now 60 cents a
gallon in about two months at this station) will most certainly have an
impact on Detroit needing more bailout bucks and other kinds of stimulus(I
hate that word). Looking at another rough summer for vacation spots if these
prices continue to rise back to north of $2.50 a gallon or more on top of
everything else.

BAHO

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