Frugal Living: misc.consumers.frugal-living - 25 new messages in 9 topics

Saturday, February 14, 2009

misc.consumers.frugal-living - 25 new messages in 9 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Hard boiled eggs.
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/032a3102de8f165d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 13 2009 11:35 pm
From: Dave Garland

The Real Bev wrote:
>
> How long does it take before you can tell they're pickled if you wash
> off the vinegar?
>
Couple of weeks. If you're serious you stick each egg with a fork (to
provide an extra way for infiltration). And invert the jar daily to
agitate the solution.

But why would you wash off the vinegar? Just fish them out, and eat
them. No rinsing needed. Then eat the onions etc. that are left.

Dave

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 14 2009 5:56 am
From: Sqwertz

James <j0069bond@hotmail.com> wrote:

> My local Safeway has large eggs on sale this week for 99 cents a
> dozen.
>
> If I cook a bunch of hard boiled eggs would they keep in their shells
> at room temperature? I don't have room in the fridge.

The ultimate solution would be to clean out your fridge if you can't
fit a couple dozen eggs in there.

-sw

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 14 2009 6:12 am
From: BillGill

James wrote:
> My local Safeway has large eggs on sale this week for 99 cents a
> dozen.
>
> If I cook a bunch of hard boiled eggs would they keep in their shells
> at room temperature? I don't have room in the fridge.

I recall the time when we didn't find all of the Easter eggs one Easter.
Then some time later we found the one that was missing. Too bad it
didn't disappear forever. I wouldn't even try that.

Bill

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 14 2009 8:09 am
From: "brooklyn1"

"Ed Pawlowski" <esp@snet.net> wrote in message
news:xisll.10580$8_3.504@flpi147.ffdc.sbc.com...
>
> "brooklyn1" <gravesend10@verizon.net> wrote in message
>>>
>>> Bear in mind that if you hard-boil them, then you can pile them all in a
>>> vertical container that takes a lot less space than an egg carton.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> That's just silly... any fridge with enough height between shelves to
>> stack a dozen eggs would be humongous, would certainly have room to store
>> eggs the normal way. Six large eggs stacked short side to short side (as
>> in an egg carton) measure like 10". A dozen eggs would need like a 20"
>> long tube...
>
> Talk about silly. Why would they have to be stacked egg on egg? A
> pitcher though, would stack them vertical, yet nested a bit and take
> minimal space. Loosen up your thought process a bit.
Tighten up on your attributions.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Money ?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/3e21db3094e8b040?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 14 2009 12:40 am
From: "Rod Speed"

Okikuro wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote

>> You can also buy gold.

> how much over the price of gold (troy oz.) should one pay for a coin?

I prefer to stick with real gold myself.

> Like the Canadian Maple Leaf?

==============================================================================
TOPIC: * Take it like a man live screen shots
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/cd270702d09e6365?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 14 2009 1:14 am
From: job8v9@gmail.com

Get stuffed wow http://imival.blogspot.com/ its unbelievable live
screen footage of a professor of lots of little things society of the
mentally gifted.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Time to lock some people up NOW! Peanut Corporation KNEW their product
was tainted before shipping it!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/eca9e4a3d413c2d3?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 14 2009 2:15 am
From: letterman@invalid.com

On Fri, 13 Feb 2009 12:13:39 -0800 (PST), skulluton@live.com wrote:

>http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/01/28/salmonella.outbreak/
>
> This was nothing short of MURDER

And reading your posts is murder too. There was a time people cut and
pasted the article, not posted a weblink for everything. I come to
newsgroups to read the news, not load a webpage every 10 seconds.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

==============================================================================
TOPIC: It's all falling apart, isn't it?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/aaee75672b67549f?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 14 2009 4:17 am
From: "Dave"

"fang" <fang@fang.com> wrote in message
news:6vmb19FktrbaU1@mid.individual.net...
> Dave wrote
>
> >>> and when those statistics add in discouraged workers?
>
> >> Those aint the unemployed, those are the discouraged. We have different
words for a reason, stupid.
>
> > People who want to work but can't find a job. Much of them are called
unemployed.
>
> Those who are no longer looking for work for whatever reason, arent
unemployed.

I agree there. But these very few people aren't called unemployed or
discouraged. And they aren't counted in unemployment figures.

.
>
> Next you'll be claiming that those who have retired are unemployed too.
>

Believe it or not, SOME retired folks are indeed unemployed. When a company
starts making cuts, some older employees are often given a "choice". The
choice is, you can be fired, or retire early. Note that retiring early
means you don't get your full pension. So while you might be "retired",
that doesn't change the fact that you involuntarily left the workforce years
before you INTENDED to. -Dave

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 14 2009 8:55 am
From: Dan

on 2/13/09 8:26 PM Igor The Terrible said the following:
> On Feb 13, 7:43 am, Dan <d...@nospam.net> wrote:
>> on 2/13/09 4:14 AM Igor The Terrible said the following:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Feb 13, 5:01 am, wis...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 12 Feb 2009 23:45:15 -0500, Test User <T...@NosSpam.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> It's all falling apart, isn't it?
>>>>> I've been taking a look at the big picture again lately and forgive me
>>>>> if I speak the obvious but, it's all falling apart. America. It's
>>>>> falling apart.
>>>>> We have Ivy League Schools whose graduates are dumber than sand. Need
>>>>> proof? Look at the financial debacle. These Ivy League Bankers, Brokers
>>>>> and Money Managers were too friggin stupid to figure out they were
>>>>> running themselves into bankruptcy!
>>>>> Many of today's American businessmen who aren't outright stupid, are
>>>>> turning out to be sociopaths; brazenly robbing, defrauding and scamming
>>>>> anyone they can. Take the head of AIG for example; such a schemer that
>>>>> he wrecked his company by intentionally doing business in such a way as
>>>>> to make bigger bonuses for himself. Same thing with the top guys in
>>>>> Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.
>>>>> These guys ran their companies right into Bankruptcy just to enrich
>>>>> themselves.
>>>>> American public school kids are graduating high schools and even
>>>>> colleges so dumb that most of them cannot find their own home states on
>>>>> an unlabeled map! A whole slew of them can't do basic calculus and their
>>>>> ability to spell or think critically is virtually non-existent.
>>>>> We have a government that is spending so much money there isn't enough
>>>>> on the entire planet to lend to them, so they have to print their own
>>>>> just to keep pace. That can't last much longer.
>>>>> We have millions of diseased, uneducated illegal aliens in the country
>>>>> who have brought with them their filthy, third-world cultures. These
>>>>> pieces of human filth have caused resurgence in diseases like polio,
>>>>> long cured from this land!
>>>>> We treat homosexuals like they're some sort of gift instead of a plague;
>>>>> and in some places, the boards of education are unleashing these
>>>>> sodomites on young school children to "teach them" about the so-called
>>>>> "alternative lifestyle."
>>>>> If you dare speak out about this stuff, you're smeared as a 'hater" or
>>>>> racist, bigot, homophobe or some other such thing.
>>>>> Things are so bad on so many levels that I no longer recognize my own
>>>>> country. Somethings gotta give. This cannot go on.
>>>> When the unemployment rate gets to 10% it should get America's
>>>> attention. Yes, America is in decline via dilution of it's european
>>>> population. (yes, means White!)
>>>> ted
>>>> sites to visit:
>>>> http://www.wvw.net/Western Voices World News
>>>> http://www.newnation.org/New Nation News- Hide quoted text -
>>>> - Show quoted text -
>>> So...........? Big deal. The rest of the world's human population
>>> is still thriving.
>> Africa is thriving? Europe is thriving? China is thriving? Do read
>> the financial papers? Russia is basket case.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> I didn't say anything about economics, simply population growth.
> Seems like the Anglo-Saxon/protestant work ethic or fragments thereof
> and principles seem to survive even until this day. Some folks feel
> if they can't afford to raise a family and give their kids what they
> believe they should have--they simply don't have them. There are
> other reason of course, but this is just one of them. You can blame
> other crap like people putting careers before family, others simply
> don't want them and the responsibilities, they don't want to bring
> them into this rotten world, fertility problems and no insurance or
> money to pay for medical assistance, downright resentment toward
> marriage--especially the 24 hour American meet-screw-marry-divorce
> institution which in the same has become a cash cow for lawyers,
> etc.... I'm sure you get the picture.

And with low birth rate and anti-immigration (young import workers), the
USA's pay-as-go system will collapse. Ditto for Europe. The dangers of
static thinking.

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 14 2009 9:00 am
From: Dan

on 2/13/09 7:45 PM phil scott said the following:
> On Feb 13, 4:42 am, Dan <d...@nospam.net> wrote:
>> on 2/13/09 4:01 AM wis...@yahoo.com said the following:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Thu, 12 Feb 2009 23:45:15 -0500, Test User <T...@NosSpam.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>> It's all falling apart, isn't it?
>>>> I've been taking a look at the big picture again lately and forgive me
>>>> if I speak the obvious but, it's all falling apart. America. It's
>>>> falling apart.
>>>> We have Ivy League Schools whose graduates are dumber than sand. Need
>>>> proof? Look at the financial debacle. These Ivy League Bankers, Brokers
>>>> and Money Managers were too friggin stupid to figure out they were
>>>> running themselves into bankruptcy!
>>>> Many of today's American businessmen who aren't outright stupid, are
>>>> turning out to be sociopaths; brazenly robbing, defrauding and scamming
>>>> anyone they can. Take the head of AIG for example; such a schemer that
>>>> he wrecked his company by intentionally doing business in such a way as
>>>> to make bigger bonuses for himself. Same thing with the top guys in
>>>> Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.
>>>> These guys ran their companies right into Bankruptcy just to enrich
>>>> themselves.
>>>> American public school kids are graduating high schools and even
>>>> colleges so dumb that most of them cannot find their own home states on
>>>> an unlabeled map! A whole slew of them can't do basic calculus and their
>>>> ability to spell or think critically is virtually non-existent.
>>>> We have a government that is spending so much money there isn't enough
>>>> on the entire planet to lend to them, so they have to print their own
>>>> just to keep pace. That can't last much longer.
>>>> We have millions of diseased, uneducated illegal aliens in the country
>>>> who have brought with them their filthy, third-world cultures. These
>>>> pieces of human filth have caused resurgence in diseases like polio,
>>>> long cured from this land!
>>>> We treat homosexuals like they're some sort of gift instead of a plague;
>>>> and in some places, the boards of education are unleashing these
>>>> sodomites on young school children to "teach them" about the so-called
>>>> "alternative lifestyle."
>>>> If you dare speak out about this stuff, you're smeared as a 'hater" or
>>>> racist, bigot, homophobe or some other such thing.
>>>> Things are so bad on so many levels that I no longer recognize my own
>>>> country. Somethings gotta give. This cannot go on.
>>> When the unemployment rate gets to 10% it should get America's
>>> attention. Yes, America is in decline via dilution of it's european
>>> population. (yes, means White!)
>>> ted
>>> sites to visit:
>>> http://www.wvw.net/ Western Voices World News
>>> http://www.newnation.org/ New Nation News
>> The "top->down flat-landers" don't understand that economic activity is
>> a non-linear system. Therefore, top->down policies can have devastating
>> effects. In a nut shell, cronyism fascists are pushing their reckless
>> behavior losses onto the naive taxpayer. As this continues to happen,
>> the private market will be starved of needed capital and the economy
>> will contract.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> very interesting... could you flesh that out a bit? One thing for
> sure, the US is now 38th in the world in high school test scores,
> we have the most in prison, and govt bloat beyond belief, and an
> unpayable national debt,,, as our birth rate shrinks due to both
> parents
> having to work sometimes two jobs to make ends meet,... this mess did
> not originate entirely at the very top, but down into mid range govt
> also as the police
> unions for example now have retirement packages that end up after
> finagling in the 150k range per year,,, for beat cops,
>
>
> no way in hell the working class can support such a rip off
>
> Phil scott

I classify any government or police or military as top->down
flat-landers. Any entity that takes away freedom from the individual by
onerous taxation and rules and regulations. The USA is in real trouble.

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 14 2009 9:01 am
From: Dan

on 2/13/09 12:32 PM Lawyerkill said the following:
> On Feb 13, 1:05�pm, freeisbest <demeter547op...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On Feb 13, 12:43�pm, The Real Bev <bashley...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> Dave wrote:
>>>> "William Boyd" <williamb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Dave wrote:
>>>>>>> When the unemployment rate gets to 10% it should get America's
>>>>>>> attention.
>>>>>> The unemployment rate is over 20% right now, in the U.S.A. �At last
>>>>>> REPORT (that I heard anyway) it was near 7%. �But the formula was
>>>>>> changed/fudged so that it no longer included discouraged workers. �In
>>>>>> other words, if this was say, 1968, the REPORTED unemployment level would
>>>>>> be about 22%.
>>>>> OK Chicken Little why don't you use the statistics.
>>>>> http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09037/947350-100.stm
>>>>> U.S. unemployment rate hits 7.6 percent
>> �> > and when those statistics add in discouraged workers? �The
>> number
>> �> > is far greater than 7.6% �-Dave
>>
>> �> Clearly, but I wonder how that number is determined. �Do government
>> �> �workers survey the people who exhausted their unemployment?
>> �>�Perhaps this is a good job for the people who have exhausted
>> �> their unemployment...
>>
>> � � The last time the Bush admin 'adjusted' the figures, they
>> emphatically did not count the people are no longer collecting
>> unemployment. �The only thing that matters to a Repub administration
>> is whether or not their money (i.e., the money we used to think of as
>> the U.S. Treasury) is being wasted on 'welfare'.
>
>
> According to former Labor Secretary Bob Reich unemployment was
> redefined to eliminate five million discouraged workers and to lower
> the unemployment rate
>
>

No, the real reason is that the elites didn't want to the producers to
realize that dole train was getting so big.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Car Insurance
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/0743cd326690fd99?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 14 2009 4:26 am
From: "Dave"

> My experience may not be typical - my hospital stay had nothing at all to
do
> with anything driving related. But if an overnight can cost like that I'd
> think you're better off buying insurance than paying the expenses
yourself,
> no matter how much money you have in the bank.
>
>

That's another way of saying that health care costs are TOTALLY out of
control. -Dave

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 14 2009 8:23 am
From: George

Mark Anderson wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Feb 2009 20:26:16 -0500, Lou wrote:
>
>> I had occasion last year to spend one night in the hospital for some
>> minor surgery - went home the next day. The bill came to $100k and
>> change. I think you'd be nuts to leave yourself open to paying those
>> kinds of bills by foregoing insurance, legal or not.
>
> Here in the great banana republic of Illinois the required coverage for
> liability is $40,000. If you insure the minimum and someone ran up a
> $100K medical bill you'd still be uninsured for $60K, almost like having
> no insurance at all.

PA has similar limits that I guess were set in 1950. Buying the state
required minimum is only slightly better than nothing. The main thing
you need to protect yourself from are the lawyers looking to transfer
wealth to themselves who have their pictures on city buses telling
people they will "help them".

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 14 2009 8:47 am
From: "Lou"

"Dave" <noway1@noway2.not> wrote in message
news:gn6d8p$loh$1@news.motzarella.org...
> > My experience may not be typical - my hospital stay had nothing at all
to
> do
> > with anything driving related. But if an overnight can cost like that
I'd
> > think you're better off buying insurance than paying the expenses
> yourself,
> > no matter how much money you have in the bank.
> >
> >
>
> That's another way of saying that health care costs are TOTALLY out of
> control. -Dave
>
I'm saying nothing of the kind, and that's another subject anyway. At the
moment, that's the way the world is, and a prudent person does what s/he can
to deal with it. It's certainly not an argument for not buying auto
insurance.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: America is doomed without industrial restoration
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/3ac833194943bee0?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 9 ==
Date: Fri, Feb 13 2009 9:40 pm
From: Fritz Wuehler

In article <john-25663E.07244912022009@news-1.octanews.net>
"John A. Weeks III" <j...@johnweeks.com> wrote:
>
> In article <mh18p41mdshngs44ptbhnfq1rtq4iqs...@4ax.com>,
> wis...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > In the long run it all comes down to loss of US productivity.. the
> > loss of US created wealth.
>
> Ummm, worker productivity has been at an all time high for quite
> some time, and has been surging ahead over the past few months.
> There is no issue with productivity.
>
> > Unless the US can rebuild its manufacturing capability it will be a
> > long slide into a third world level of subsistence.
>
> Ummm, the US is at an all time high for manufacturing at the moment.
> We manufacture far more than we did in 15 years ago. That is now
> an issue right now.
>
> > The only solution is to withdarw from the WTO and allow US workers -
> > and only US workers - the ability to make this country into a
> > powerhouse again
>
> That sounds like the old burry you head in the sand and hope it
> goes away theory. Good luck with that.
>
> -john-
>
> --
> ======================================================================
> John A. Weeks III 612-720-2854 j...@johnweeks.com
> Newave Communications http://www.johnweeks.com
> ======================================================================

Of course you are referring to the producing of theft, the production of
commercial corporate owned Faux news, the promotion and production of world
subjugation through capitalist exploitation via murder, rape, torture,
education, individual rights of those who command these to line their
pockets, and put America and Americans up for sale. You and yours manufacture
misery because you are stupid selfish little prick demons that elect witch
doctors as your leaders. Those who'd just as soon take it up the ass, then in
the mouth. We know you, you perverted little fucktard dimwit.

== 2 of 9 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 14 2009 6:09 am
From: "John A. Weeks III"

In article
<fd5a3afc20f1c160c83e49b18d0b74f7@msgid.frell.theremailer.net>,
Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-200902.rodent.frell.theremailer.net>
wrote:

> Of course you are referring to the producing of theft, the production of
> commercial corporate owned Faux news, the promotion and production of world
> subjugation through capitalist exploitation via murder, rape, torture,
> education, individual rights of those who command these to line their
> pockets, and put America and Americans up for sale. You and yours manufacture
> misery because you are stupid selfish little prick demons that elect witch
> doctors as your leaders. Those who'd just as soon take it up the ass, then in
> the mouth. We know you, you perverted little fucktard dimwit.

Sounds like you have some unresolved issues. Are you sure that
it is safe for you to be out in public without you having taken
your meds today?

-john-

--
======================================================================
John A. Weeks III 612-720-2854 john@johnweeks.com
Newave Communications http://www.johnweeks.com
======================================================================

== 3 of 9 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 14 2009 7:37 am
From: "Mark M."

DanB (Previously DB) wrote:
> Mark M. wrote:
>
>> residualselfimage1999@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> On Feb 12, 6:26 am, wis...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> All the bailouts... and the stimulii...all the hot air....the debt...
>>>> the debt servicing... they DON"T MATTER
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> In the long run it all comes down to loss of US productivity.. the
>>>> loss of US created wealth. Unless the US can rebuild its
>>>> manufacturing capability it will be a
>>>> long slide into a third world level of subsistence.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> China's current economic tumble shows that even
>>> a highly productive economy with a high manufacturing
>>> capacity does not necessarily adequately protect
>>> an economy from a downturn -
>>
>>
>> China could help itself by having Chinese workers consume more of what
>> they produce.
>
>
> I think it may be easer said. They already have a huge wealth disparity
> problem. Migrant workers are well off the charts of affording what they
> produce.

Of course higher wages must precede greater consumption.

Mark M.

== 4 of 9 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 14 2009 7:32 am
From: "DanB (Previously DB)"

residualselfimage1999@gmail.com wrote:
> On Feb 13, 10:03 pm, "DanB (Previously DB)" <a...@some.net> wrote:
>> Mark M. wrote:

>>> China could help itself by having Chinese workers consume more of what
>>> they produce.

>> I think it may be easer said. They already have a huge wealth disparity
>> problem. Migrant workers are well off the charts of affording what they
>> produce. And catching up with the present loss of exports would require
>> a big move toward domestic consumption.
>>
>> http://lakeweb.com/money/Social%20Unrest%20in%20China.pdf-

> Unfortunately, many if not most of china's factory workers are migrant
> workers
> coming in from the rural countryside/inner provinces and are paid very
> little if
> they are paid at all. Their economic condition cannot be improve by
> waving
> the magic wand of imports-exports or changing currency evaluation. The
> only
> financial mechanism that has been shown to improve the economic
> opportunity
> of the poor has been micro-capitalization (micro-loans) and small
> business
> incubator/development programs (which were shown to work in
> Banglesdesh).
> Economic opportunity is not created by giving money or credit to
> large
> corporations or by every single person. Rather economic growth and
> opportunity
> is found by searching for and empowering those relationships which
> are capable for providing services and products that the market/
> community needs and desires. Empowerment involves extension of
> credit, market access, transfer of skills, and soforth.
>
Micro-capitalization has worked in back water countries where the
government is weak and the 'bank' is benign. The central government of
China's weakness is that the lower downs are mostly corrupt. I don't see
this as a place where micro capping the migrant worker into independence
could ever work. The China financial freighter is geared for global
export. It would be a monumental feat to turn that around.

== 5 of 9 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 14 2009 7:41 am
From: "John A. Weeks III"

In article <P56dneJrWfq4fwvUnZ2dnUVZ_obinZ2d@earthlink.com>,
"Mark M." <mark@ztech.com> wrote:

> DanB (Previously DB) wrote:
> > Mark M. wrote:
> >
> >> residualselfimage1999@gmail.com wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Feb 12, 6:26 am, wis...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> All the bailouts... and the stimulii...all the hot air....the debt...
> >>>> the debt servicing... they DON"T MATTER
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> In the long run it all comes down to loss of US productivity.. the
> >>>> loss of US created wealth. Unless the US can rebuild its
> >>>> manufacturing capability it will be a
> >>>> long slide into a third world level of subsistence.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> China's current economic tumble shows that even
> >>> a highly productive economy with a high manufacturing
> >>> capacity does not necessarily adequately protect
> >>> an economy from a downturn -
> >>
> >>
> >> China could help itself by having Chinese workers consume more of what
> >> they produce.
> >
> >
> > I think it may be easer said. They already have a huge wealth disparity
> > problem. Migrant workers are well off the charts of affording what they
> > produce.
>
> Of course higher wages must precede greater consumption.

That isn't always the case. What we are seeing right now is that
people are concerned about the future. As a result, they are
diverting what they normally spend into paying down debt and
increasing savings. When large numbers of people do that all
at the same time, it can cut down on consumption enough to
cause a spiral effect of layoffs. If people had confidence
in the future, they could increase their spending by putting
less into debt payoff and savings.

-john-

== 6 of 9 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 14 2009 7:42 am
From: "DanB (Previously DB)"

Mark M. wrote:
> DanB (Previously DB) wrote:
>> Mark M. wrote:
>>>
>>> China could help itself by having Chinese workers consume more of
>>> what they produce.
>>
>> I think it may be easer said. They already have a huge wealth
>> disparity problem. Migrant workers are well off the charts of
>> affording what they produce.
>
> Of course higher wages must precede greater consumption.

Yes, but there is a catch 22. Migrant workers in China are suffering
from large pay cuts. And those are the ones that are not being laid off.

== 7 of 9 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 14 2009 8:16 am
From: Democracy Highlander

On Feb 13, 11:12 pm, residualselfimage1...@gmail.com wrote:

> China's economy downturn demonstrates
> how suspectible a manufacturing base
> economy can be to market fluctuations.

Yes, IF AND ONLY IF the manufacturing country is bound to obey blindly
the market.
China is doing that (in purpose, at the price of harming their own
people) because they
still have (or anticipate to have for the foreseeable future) a
positive influx of capital/technology/know how from Western world.
Once for one of many possible reasons, the influx of capital in China
stops I bet China will not be as stupid as US to obey the will of
criminal free-marketeers and will take action to keep
the industry inside and produce for their own people.

> It is not that the yuan is not floating but
> that Chinese banks are not buying back
> the yuan - instead the Chinese banks have
> been buying US T-bill -- with the US dollars
> gained by the exports and domestically
> exchanging US dollars to yuans for domestic
> usage at a fixed pegged price. This essentially
> means the chinese are lending money so
> US government can spend more than it makes
> in tax revenues.

The big question is WHY is doing China this ? Is anyone naive enough
to believe that China is
undermining their own people just because they like US ? Do they
impoverish their own people to provide us a life in luxury because
they love us sooooo much ? Or because they are committed to the "noble
cause of success of capitalism in the world" ?

Let be serious ! China is exploiting at maximum our imbecile belief in
free-trade/free-market mythologies.
They score a double hit with this policy:
- They industrialize themselves at a rate unseen anywhere else in the
world
- They de-industrialize the west, weakening it ability to make stand
against China

Keep in mind that you can not send out US soldiers naked on the
battlefield and all the US factories making underwear, socks and
shirts are already moved offshore, most of them in ..... China.
An army is only as strong as the industry behind it, able to cloth,
feed and furnish them.
This is why US won the WW2. The Germans were better trained, the
fanaticism of Japanese made them way more brave than US privates. But
US was able to rally behind it army an industrial force unmatched by
any of them and we crushed them with pure technological superiority.

China looked and learned, and now they are building a huge industrial
complex while US is dismantling it factories and give them as gift to
Chinese in the name on free-trade.

The economic naive will say: "We still keep in US all the military
industry so we are safe".
"Those who did not learn history are doomed to repeat it". This is
exactly what triggered the collapse of Soviet Union. They pushed all
their resources in military industry neglecting the civilian industry,
by this they went at the beginning ahead US with Sputnik and Gagarin.
By this they were able to manufacture a nuclear, chemical and
biological arsenal at least twice as big as US. But they payed for
that.
When a discovery was made in military industry in USSR, it was always
hold as secret.
When a discovery was made in military industry in US if it was not
something with direct implication in weapon technology it was released
to the civilian industry.
In time, civilian industry in US was able to use those discoveries to
produce better tools which they sold back to military industry making
them more productive. At the same time, civilian industry in USSR
stagnated and was continuously depleted by their top talents who were
taken by military.
In US the continuous improvement of civilian industry provided the
basis for new advances in military technologies who bought cheaper
commercial products for their needs, in meantime in USSR every
advanced piece of equipment was specially manufactured for military,
very expensive. USSR military stagnated and become a burden for the
country, while US military become an engine of innovation and progress
for US. In the end USSR collapse since they just could not bear the
weight of their military complex, while US prosper.

However, today by un-industrializing the US in the name of free-trade
we repeat EXACTLY the same mistakes which brought down USSR. For a
military complex to thrive and prosper, it need to be integrated and
advance hand in hand with it civilian industrial base. If we are
idiots enough to offshore all our civilian industry to China, guess
who will become the next military superpower, and who will collapse
exactly as USSR did ?

> Economic globalization that most US politicians
> support is suppose to eventually equalize and
> transform all local economies (into one big
> massive global economy) but local standard of
> living. The downside to a global economy is that
> when there is a downturn - its global - there is no
> where to hide.

It hides deep in China undergrounds... Just wait and see.

> US corporation also move their factories to places like
> Ireland, Vietnam, Mexico, Brazil, and Canada, too.

Yes they did, and the idiots are our corrupted politicians who
supported free-trade / free-markets dogma at the cost of destroying US
economy for a campaign donation from PAC groups.

== 8 of 9 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 14 2009 8:35 am
From: me@privacy.net

B1ackwater <bw@barrk.net> wrote:

> 'Capitalism' is inherently a positive-feedback system ... and
> therefore highly unstable. Left alone, it oscillates wildly
> between boom and bust. While this may serve a few savvy (or
> lucky) speculators & investors it's not GOOD enough as the
> basis for modern 1st-world economies & nations. It HAS to be
> tempered, regulated, plugged into some negative feedback in
> order to damp-out the oscillations.

Interesting!

have some links on this?

== 9 of 9 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 14 2009 8:45 am
From: Democracy Highlander

On Feb 14, 11:35 am, m...@privacy.net wrote:
> B1ackwater <b...@barrk.net> wrote:
> > 'Capitalism' is inherently a positive-feedback system ... and
> > therefore highly unstable. Left alone, it oscillates wildly
> > between boom and bust. While this may serve a few savvy (or
> > lucky) speculators & investors it's not GOOD enough as the
> > basis for modern 1st-world economies & nations. It HAS to be
> > tempered, regulated, plugged into some negative feedback in
> > order to damp-out the oscillations.
>
> Interesting!
>
> have some links on this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_theory

==============================================================================
TOPIC: New blog
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/a0aab0d0aab96665?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 14 2009 4:29 am
From: clams_casino

guptak@gmail.com wrote:

>
>
>Please post your comments.
>
>

Your spam is not appreciated.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: money making from home
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/c9cd088ab1fc6ba8?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Feb 14 2009 6:21 am
From: "synarayani.09@gmail.com"

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misc.consumers.frugal-living - 25 new messages in 9 topics - digest

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