Frugal Living: Aug 3, 2008

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: 3000 Sat. TV Channels On Your PC
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/c393f9cf81505a63?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Aug 2 2008 10:15 pm
From: Gordon

Sven <fodrem@gmail.com> wrote in news:ca9d3499-9713-4fb7-9d99-
d4ec969eb41d@o40g2000prn.googlegroups.com:

> Receive 3000 Satellite TV channels on your PC.
> No monthly fee just a one time download.
> Watch movies news and your favorite shows from all around the globe.
> Watch from any where you have a Internet connection.
> Learn more at:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/sat-tv

Forget about these services. You can get the same thing
by downloading JLC's internet TV. OR Joost, Veoh, Miro, etc
All free.

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TOPIC: To juice or not.
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/bb065ec0061ab7cd?hl=en
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== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 3 2008 4:21 am
From: CurlyQue

The power brokers have us right where they want us....polarized masses
weakened and distracted by fighting amongst ourselves while they merrily
screw the shit out of all of us

United we stand, divided we fall.

Curly

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 3 2008 11:24 am
From: "AllEmailDeletedImmediately"

"CurlyQue" <mamay@gug.com> wrote in message
news:C9idnTuwpINUCQjVnZ2dnUVZ_tvinZ2d@centurytel.net...
>
>
>
>
> The power brokers have us right where they want us....polarized masses
> weakened and distracted by fighting amongst ourselves while they merrily
> screw the shit out of all of us
>
>
> United we stand, divided we fall.
>
>
> Curly

and how can we all get united when we're divided up with hyphens?

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Business Failures
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/055d0af667973622?hl=en
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== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 3 2008 7:41 am
From: Cheapo Groovo

According to the US Bureau of Labor Statistics, only 44 percent of new
establishments were still in existence 4 years after their birth!!!!

Why do they fail?
* Business idea was too hard for customers to understand or no
demand
* Didn=3Ft have enough capital to start or grow the business
* Could not do the detailed work =3F accounting, inventory
management, site location, marketing, etc. so their business
partners/consultants ate up their bank account
* Competing in an oilgopolistic market gave then no chance for
success
* Sold on bad business ideas =3F like the real estate infomercial
showing a Vietnamese gentleman with two gorgeous blondes at his
side.

Solution: Start a business with built in downside controls. This is what
practical entrepreneurship is all about. That is the theory behind
Thriving in a Global Economy =3F diversify your revenue streams, spend the
most time on marketing, get paid in cash where you can, and set
realistic goals!

I deliver Thriving in a Global Economy as a downloadable screencast for
a tip of $3!

Order today and stop giving yourself false dreams!
http://tiny.cc/QrK8T

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 3 2008 12:43 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

Cheapo Groovo <ccsj@nospam.com> wrote:

> According to the US Bureau of Labor Statistics, only 44 percent of
> new establishments were still in existence 4 years after their birth!!!!

> Why do they fail?
> * Business idea was too hard for customers to understand or no demand
> * Didnt have enough capital to start or grow the business
> * Could not do the detailed work accounting, inventory
> management, site location, marketing, etc. so their business
> partners/consultants ate up their bank account
> * Competing in an oilgopolistic market gave then no chance for success
> * Sold on bad business ideas like the real estate infomercialshowing a
> Vietnamese gentleman with two gorgeous blondes at his side.

The usual reason is that there are already too many
in that particular line of business in that particular area.

Thats always been a major downside with business, its too easy for
others to startup and take business away from the current businesses.

> Solution: Start a business with built in downside controls.

Thats nothing like a 'solution'

> This is what practical entrepreneurship is all about.

Nope. Its actually about doing it better than your competitors and
hope that someone else doesnt work out how to do that to you too.

> That is the theory behind Thriving in a Global Economy

Just more mindless glib shit.

> diversify your revenue streams, spend the most time on marketing,
> get paid in cash where you can, and set realistic goals!

Just more mindless glib shit.

> I deliver Thriving in a Global Economy as a downloadable screencast for a tip of $3!

That mindless shit isnt even worth that, spammer.

> Order today and stop giving yourself false dreams!

Go and fuck yourself, spammer.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 3 2008 1:23 pm
From: clams_casino

Cheapo Groovo the spammer wrote:

>
>Order today and stop giving yourself false dreams!
>http://spam.cc
>

You do realize commercial spam is prohibited by charter on this newsgroup!.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: how to survive the heat and cold on a low budget
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/ada7c54e5466e89d?hl=en
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== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 3 2008 9:33 am
From: Derald

"Stephanie" <haaa@noway.net> wrote:

>For us, we can spend some time and not money by harvesting the dead trees on
>our property for the wood stove.
Same here. Although I make it a point not to burn any deadfall from
our parcel, enough "devlopment" is happening (Florida) to provide an
endless supply of free-for-the-hauling hardwood. I saw it into
relatively short rounds and split it with an axe while still green and
easy to split.
Dunno anything about air conditioning; never had it in the home or
motor vehicle. I put it into the same category as cable teevee: Don't
need it; don't know anyone who does. My body has a self-contained (and
free) system of temperature regulation that simply requires that I keep
a reasonable level of physical fitness in order to work at peak
efficiency. I do, however, know of a number of out-of-shape chubbies,
for whom I have no sympathy at all, who continuously whine about being
"hot" or "needing" air conditioning when all they really need is an
exercise program -- one that begins with the arms: Using them to push
their lard asses away from the table....

== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 3 2008 8:53 am
From: Marsha

Derald wrote:
> Dunno anything about air conditioning; never had it in the home or
> motor vehicle. I put it into the same category as cable teevee: Don't
> need it; don't know anyone who does. My body has a self-contained (and
> free) system of temperature regulation that simply requires that I keep
> a reasonable level of physical fitness in order to work at peak
> efficiency. I do, however, know of a number of out-of-shape chubbies,
> for whom I have no sympathy at all, who continuously whine about being
> "hot" or "needing" air conditioning when all they really need is an
> exercise program -- one that begins with the arms: Using them to push
> their lard asses away from the table....

Air conditioning sure helps in extreme heat and humidity, especially if
you're female and going through menopause.

Marsha/Ohio

== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 3 2008 11:46 am
From: Goomba

Derald wrote:

> Dunno anything about air conditioning; never had it in the home or
> motor vehicle. I put it into the same category as cable teevee: Don't
> need it; don't know anyone who does. My body has a self-contained (and
> free) system of temperature regulation that simply requires that I keep
> a reasonable level of physical fitness in order to work at peak
> efficiency. I do, however, know of a number of out-of-shape chubbies,
> for whom I have no sympathy at all, who continuously whine about being
> "hot" or "needing" air conditioning when all they really need is an
> exercise program -- one that begins with the arms: Using them to push
> their lard asses away from the table....

Spoken a tad pompously, lol.
I am curious as to where you live?

== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 3 2008 1:20 pm
From: clams_casino

Derald wrote:

> Dunno anything about air conditioning; never had it in the home or
>motor vehicle. I put it into the same category as cable teevee: Don't
>need it; don't know anyone who does.
>
>

When we moved to RI, I resisted putting in air while trying a portable
unit. We finally put in central air a few years ago, thinking the
installation cost would mostly be recovered in a sales price.

I was concerned about the running cost. Just got our bill for last
month - even with the country's highest electricity costs ($16.5/KWHr
and soon to go up another 20%), the cost of central air from 6/26 - 7/28
was only about $75 (over the typically cost for lights, etc). That
was half what we spent several summers ago for the single unit & July
was one of the highest monthly average temperature on record for RI.

That $75 was well worth every penny. We tend to keep the living areas
about 74-75F (80F in alternate area), using programmable thermostats to
separately control up (night) / down stair (day) areas.

== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 3 2008 2:18 pm
From: Marsha

clams_casino wrote:
> When we moved to RI, I resisted putting in air while trying a portable
> unit. We finally put in central air a few years ago, thinking the
> installation cost would mostly be recovered in a sales price.
>
> I was concerned about the running cost. Just got our bill for last
> month - even with the country's highest electricity costs ($16.5/KWHr
> and soon to go up another 20%), the cost of central air from 6/26 - 7/28
> was only about $75 (over the typically cost for lights, etc). That
> was half what we spent several summers ago for the single unit & July
> was one of the highest monthly average temperature on record for RI.
>
> That $75 was well worth every penny. We tend to keep the living areas
> about 74-75F (80F in alternate area), using programmable thermostats to
> separately control up (night) / down stair (day) areas.

Same here. We had a large window unit. When we added on to the house,
we would have needed a couple. So we got central air. Keep it around
75 and it's quite comfy. Much cheaper and more efficient than two
window units.

Marsha/Ohio

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TOPIC: Which of these is best VALUE stock investment?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/785d10c890e976d3?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 3 2008 9:33 am
From: Derald

"OhioGuy" <none@none.net> wrote:

> I like to do value stock investments. In other words, pick things up when
>they are cheap.
I would suggest that you are a bargain-hunter, not a "value"
investor. Bargain-hunters who shop by price only rarely profit, even in
the long term: The vast majority of low priced stocks are priced low
because they deserve to be, not because they are undervalued. Your best
"investment" might be in self-education.
If you wish to learn the basics of so-called "value" investing, you
would do well to listen directly to the horse's mouth: I cannot
recommend too highly _The Intelligent Investor_ written by Benjamin
Graham with an assist from his "star pupil", Warren Buffet. The fourth
revised edition is the one that you want because it is the last edition
actually written by Graham. After you think that you begin to understand
the principles outlined there, then study -- don't simply read but
systematically study -- Graham & Dodd's _Stock Analysis_. Again, the
edition is important; you should obtain the 2nd edition (1940), in which
G&D clarify many points made in the first edition.
Useable copies of _T.I.I._ are readily available at moderate
prices. If you're interested, I have a first printing of the second
edition of _S.A._ that I can let go for only $900.00. However, with a
little (well, a lot of, actually) diligent shopping, say on ABEbooks,
you should be able to find a useful reading copy for $30-$60. You also
will find 2nd edition replicas priced even lower.
IMO, understanding the principles and techniques offered in these
two works is critical to being able to penetrate the smokescreens
broadcast by the myriad blowhard self-styled "value" and/or
"Buffetology" "experts" that afflict the marketplace.
I infer from your posting history that you're a family guy trying
to live decently within his means while providing for childrens'
education and at the same time setting a little aside for retirement --
or trying to, at least. You could do much worse than to spend $29.00 for
a membership in the American Association of Independent Investors
(AAII.com). A significant portion of the W3 site, educational material
in particular, is free. From the main page, click on "free content" and
then check out the "classroom", especially the "Know Thyself" article.
--
"Blow up your teevee;
"Throw away your paper;
" Go to the country;
"Build a little home..."
---John Prine

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TOPIC: frugal used battery
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/1b65b3938e1db748?hl=en
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== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 3 2008 8:43 am
From: Jeff

Shawn Hirn wrote:
> In article <U_CdnUiwZ-iofQ7VnZ2dnUVZ_h3inZ2d@earthlink.com>,
> Jeff <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote:
>
>> My car battery died a couple weeks back and I bought a new battery.
>> This morning I found out that I no longer had a car battery.
>>
>> I've acquired a used battery that looks like it's been overfilled and
>> is not holding a charge for long. Aren't there some tricks to
>> rejuvinating used car batteries?
>>
>> Jeff
>
> Maybe its a matter of personal preference, but I get in my car and start
> it, the last thing I want is for the battery to die. Considering that
> car batteries rarely have to be replaced and they are not very
> expensive, I prefer to buy a new one when the time comes and not worry
> about if the old battery will continue to work. If starting your car is
> important to you, don't bother with a used battery.
>
> By the way, I don't understand your first paragraph. If you bought a new
> car battery, what happened to it?

Stolen. I found the hood ajar and the battery missing.

I'm unsure how the hood was raised since it has an inside hood
release. There is an unobvious way of bypassing that and that may have
been the thief's method. I've cut off the shortcut.

I'd rather not go through a string of new batteries, batteries are
still $60+ a pop. As the leader of the free world put it: "Fool me
once, shame on- shame you. Fool me- you can't get fooled again." -
George W. Bush

Jeff

If it went bad, can't you have it
> replaced under its factory warranty?

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 3 2008 12:44 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

Jeff <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote:
> Shawn Hirn wrote:
>> In article <U_CdnUiwZ-iofQ7VnZ2dnUVZ_h3inZ2d@earthlink.com>,
>> Jeff <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote:
>>
>>> My car battery died a couple weeks back and I bought a new
>>> battery. This morning I found out that I no longer had a car
>>> battery. I've acquired a used battery that looks like it's been
>>> overfilled and is not holding a charge for long. Aren't there some
>>> tricks to rejuvinating used car batteries?
>>>
>>> Jeff
>>
>> Maybe its a matter of personal preference, but I get in my car and
>> start it, the last thing I want is for the battery to die.
>> Considering that car batteries rarely have to be replaced and they
>> are not very expensive, I prefer to buy a new one when the time
>> comes and not worry about if the old battery will continue to work.
>> If starting your car is important to you, don't bother with a used
>> battery. By the way, I don't understand your first paragraph. If you bought a
>> new car battery, what happened to it?
>
> Stolen. I found the hood ajar and the battery missing.
>
> I'm unsure how the hood was raised since it has an inside hood
> release. There is an unobvious way of bypassing that and that may have
> been the thief's method. I've cut off the shortcut.

> I'd rather not go through a string of new batteries, batteries are still $60+ a pop.

All you have to do to avoid that is make it impossible to steal the replacement, stupid.

>> If it went bad, can't you have it replaced under its factory warranty?

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 3 2008 2:31 pm
From: Al Bundy

Jeff wrote:
> Shawn Hirn wrote:
> > In article <U_CdnUiwZ-iofQ7VnZ2dnUVZ_h3inZ2d@earthlink.com>,
> > Jeff <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote:
> >
> >> My car battery died a couple weeks back and I bought a new battery.
> >> This morning I found out that I no longer had a car battery.
> >>
> >> I've acquired a used battery that looks like it's been overfilled and
> >> is not holding a charge for long. Aren't there some tricks to
> >> rejuvinating used car batteries?
> >>
> >> Jeff
> >
> > Maybe its a matter of personal preference, but I get in my car and start
> > it, the last thing I want is for the battery to die. Considering that
> > car batteries rarely have to be replaced and they are not very
> > expensive, I prefer to buy a new one when the time comes and not worry
> > about if the old battery will continue to work. If starting your car is
> > important to you, don't bother with a used battery.
> >
> > By the way, I don't understand your first paragraph. If you bought a new
> > car battery, what happened to it?
>
> Stolen. I found the hood ajar and the battery missing.
>
> I'm unsure how the hood was raised since it has an inside hood
> release. There is an unobvious way of bypassing that and that may have
> been the thief's method. I've cut off the shortcut.
>
> I'd rather not go through a string of new batteries, batteries are
> still $60+ a pop. As the leader of the free world put it: "Fool me
> once, shame on- shame you. Fool me- you can't get fooled again." -
> George W. Bush
>
> Jeff
Tom and Ray, the Car Talk radio show guys, told a story of how
thieves would steal a battery and then come back and steal the new
replacement. So when it happened to one of them, he cleaned up a dead
battery from the shop so it looked new and put it in the car on the
street. The dead battery was then stolen. I don't know if it's a true
story. Seems like it might invite vandalism anyway.
PS. I don't know what you did to stop the latch from opening, but I
guarantee I could be under that hood in seconds with way more damage
that you want happening over a battery.

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 3 2008 4:31 pm
From: Vic Smith

On Sun, 3 Aug 2008 14:31:57 -0700 (PDT), Al Bundy
<MSfortune@mcpmail.com> wrote:

> Tom and Ray, the Car Talk radio show guys, told a story of how
>thieves would steal a battery and then come back and steal the new
>replacement. So when it happened to one of them, he cleaned up a dead
>battery from the shop so it looked new and put it in the car on the
>street. The dead battery was then stolen. I don't know if it's a true
>story. Seems like it might invite vandalism anyway.
>PS. I don't know what you did to stop the latch from opening, but I
>guarantee I could be under that hood in seconds with way more damage
>that you want happening over a battery.

So when the alarm goes off before you even start wrenching the
hold-down how many seconds does it take you to get out of sight?

--Vic

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Free Tutor
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/87357ce406dcc738?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 3 2008 8:44 am
From: Maths

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TOPIC: Part of frugal living may be spotting the next mess before it blind
sides you.
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/82578bd2c1b6f6f9?hl=en
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== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 3 2008 1:51 pm
From: phil scott

Say for instance you owe 400,000 dollars on a house now worth 150,000
dollars on the distressed market...and you are late with a mortgage
payment as your employer has announced lay offs...and your skill set
is retail sales clerk etc.

it will be nasty. My advice think twice about putting your last few
scheckles into such a black hole...instead stage to be flexible, few
or no taxable or lienable assets, stage now to make a living or at
least keep from starving to death in the times many are now seeing
ahead.

**
Obama is stepping into deep doo lately with *some of his remarks...
thats making McCain look rational by comparison.

Trying to play to the public at large, all facets, and special
interests at the same
time produces that result, and demonstrates any lack of integrity.

The nation is in deep trouble accordingly.

as an aside, safeway super market in Pacifica, calif has seen a 50%
price increase generally over the last 60 days.. in silicon valley 30%
+ ..so far this year. those are hyper inflation rates. Caused by
catering to corrupt banking practices and other such idiocy...now the
biggest are in crash mode.

Fanny Mae and Freddie Mac (govt sponsored mortgage backers) hold 40%
of the national GDP in mortgages and those values are now tanking at
warp speed, precipitating major bank failures...

Bail outs by the tax payers when it amounts to that much can only be
done (and is being done) by printing funny money... or via 'e money'..
thats the fed loaning to the member banks who then loan it to the
public...no currency printed.

This is one of the dominant final phase features before total collapse
of an economy...its a well established pattern, for over a thousand
years... same pattern.

The cure is completely nasty, and takes a generation or more... my
guess in the US less than that, 20 to 30 years to recovery.. Half a
generation due to our our already built infrastructure, land mass and
natural resouces.

It will be a nasty few decades though, the rest of most peoples lives
in fact.

...none of that brought to us by either party... but the larger cabal
of govt, civil service, and corporate interests including especially
international banking interests which own the federal reserve (its a
private bank, not US govt owned)..

(same with the IRS to a major extent, issue is heavily smoked over).

None of these give a rats ass about the nation.... but they do give a
rats ass about the assets, land, property, buildings, resources...that
is why the federal reserve is not taking US mortgage documents as
collateral in exchange for the money it loans the member banks... and
that is why US corporations are manufacturing over seas at the cost of
US jobs and the tax base necessary to support government.

These dont give a rats ass... especially in a world market as has
emerged in the recent decades.

End result, due to unpayable govt and private debt...these
international cartels end up owning the property... that is despite
the fact that local banks do not want to own property. they want to
earn interest in the mortgages.

Dont confuse the two, the fed has issued a statement that it will loan
up to 80 billion with such collateral now..(two months ago, a
precident)... you can bet they will not stop there... the goal as the
late George Carlin said is to "get it all, all of it, every last
fucking dime".

Its a video worth looking up on youtube.

....and on this path they will. Its happened before.
Concentration of wealth stats demonstrate the trend. 20 years ago in
the US 20% of the people owned 50% of the wealth...today its around 1%
of the US population that owns 50% of the wealth.

This ends up decimating a nation (mexico for instance, less than 1%
owns way more than 80% of the wealth, but verify the stats yourself..
all searchable on the web.... Mexico is a nation with a decimated
middle class, and a massive poverty class... there is not net national
gain or prosperity in that.)

The US is solidly into that final phase itself.

You see reversal as we did in Romania only when the people are
actually starving to death and put their kids into packed orphanges
because they cant afford to feed them...then you see correction. The
leaders get hung (sometimes), not in India for instance... its not bad
enough there yet apparently.

Our current batch of leaders are not worried about that..

From the first signs of such and end stage its about 20 years to such
a collapse. France ending in bastile day in the 18th century a good
example, it was peaked 20 years earlier. .. the king of france had
more gold, jewels, land and assets than any other nation.... 20 years
later, still as king is nation is bankrupt with collection pots on
street needed to keep his gig in gear... bankrupt paying his national
debt to the foreign bankers.

This route has been smoke screened in the US and manipulated by the
dot com boom, then bust.

My estimate of the final phase peak based on a study of the
underlying features was the late 1980's.. then kept afloat with dot
com mess... we are now late into the final 20 year collapse
cycle. imo.

re comments that 'this is what doomers always say, it never
happens'.... that old saw is both correct and incorrect.

A nation through its lifecycle sees 5 to 6 major depressions and many
more recessions, all of them recover

.... so the doomers within that cycle were wrong...if you consider the
great depression a sweet solution..we did rebound though.

The *longer *national *life cycles are beyond this scope...these have
different drivers... these drive a nation to total collapse or to
oblivion every 260 years ...exceptions make it to 300 years. (the
various Roman states, and empire etc...the Knights Templar for
example... a chain of castles with 20' thick walls, dual moats, outer
walls 10' thick, with foundations too deep to tunnel under... owning
virtually all of the gold in the world at the time.. vast cisterns of
grain and fresh water enough to last years...... poooooof.. gone in
20 years from that peak.

Many of the same drivers... they became corrupt, they lost their
ability to win wars, they were overrun despite their chain of bullet
proof fortresses.

Its a very interesting study.

its drivers are demographic... a population gets fat, dumb and
lazy...it elects idiots... it tolerates corruption in order to get a
govt check.... collapse is fast after that... its attempts to seize
the assets of other nations not withstanding...these only generate
enemies on a 360 degree perimeter.

the US is currently in that situation.

imo. ymmv.

Phil scott

== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 3 2008 2:07 pm
From: "AllEmailDeletedImmediately"

"phil scott" <phil@philscott.net> wrote in message
news:eb9da672-d3b9-4af3-bfb6-8948aa2ac862@b38g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
snip

> End result, due to unpayable govt and private debt...these
> international cartels end up owning the property... that is despite
> the fact that local banks do not want to own property. they want to
> earn interest in the mortgages.

end result will be the amero currency uniting us, candada, and mexico coming
our way.

== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 3 2008 2:51 pm
From: clams_casino

AllEmailDeletedImmediately wrote:

>"phil scott" <phil@philscott.net> wrote in message
>news:eb9da672-d3b9-4af3-bfb6-8948aa2ac862@b38g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>snip
>
>
>
>>End result, due to unpayable govt and private debt...these
>>international cartels end up owning the property... that is despite
>>the fact that local banks do not want to own property. they want to
>>earn interest in the mortgages.
>>
>>
>
>end result will be the amero currency uniting us, candada, and mexico coming
>our way.
>
>
>
>
Watched a news commentary this morning that made the claim the US is not
really in a recession, but rather it's undergoing a significant
cost-of-living adjustment (significant reduction in living standards).
While the end result may appear to be similar, tools to reverse the
trend were claimed to be significantly different. If it was simply a
recession, low interest rates & tax rebates would likely be a solution
to jump start the recession, but neither was felt to be a solution (and
may actually create a stagflation recession similar to the 70's) for the
reduced living standard problem.

They really did not have any solutions for the government, essentially
concluding that everyone will just have to get use to a lower standard
of living (giving up something to offset the higher cost of gas / energy).

Guess getting more frugal is more important than ever.

Gee. I wonder who is profiting from the higher energy costs?

== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 3 2008 3:11 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

Hell of a lot easier said than done tho.

I dont recall anyone predicting the sub prime fiasco before it happened.

phil scott <phil@philscott.net> wrote:

> Say for instance you owe 400,000 dollars on a house
> now worth 150,000 dollars on the distressed market...

It hasnt dropped that dramatically.

> and you are late with a mortgage payment as your employer has
> announced lay offs...and your skill set is retail sales clerk etc.

Anyone with a clue keeps enough cash on hand or credit
card limits unused to be able to handle the time between jobs.

> it will be nasty.

Nope. You can always get a job if you need one badly enough.

> My advice think twice about putting your last few scheckles into such a black hole...

No one is in that black a hole.

Yes, some are in a different hole, most obviousy with ARMs etc.

> instead stage to be flexible, few or no taxable or lienable
> assets, stage now to make a living or at least keep from
> starving to death in the times many are now seeing ahead.

No one ever starves to death in america except those who choose to do that.

> Obama is stepping into deep doo lately with *some of his remarks...

It aint just lately, he's always done that.

> thats making McCain look rational by comparison.

Not hard.

> Trying to play to the public at large, all facets, and special interests at the
> same time produces that result, and demonstrates any lack of integrity.

> The nation is in deep trouble accordingly.

No prez matters much. In spades with the drivel they spew.

> as an aside, safeway super market in Pacifica, calif has
> seen a 50% price increase generally over the last 60 days..

Bare faced lie.

> in silicon valley 30% + ..so far this year.

Another bare faced lie.

> those are hyper inflation rates.

You clearly wouldnt know what real hyper inflation was if it bit you on your lard arse.

> Caused by catering to corrupt banking practices and other such idiocy...

Another bare faced lie.

> now the biggest are in crash mode.

Another bare faced lie.

> Fanny Mae and Freddie Mac (govt sponsored mortgage
> backers) hold 40% of the national GDP in mortgages

Another bare faced pig ignorant lie.

> and those values are now tanking at warp speed,

Another bare faced pig ignorant lie.

> precipitating major bank failures...

Another bare faced pig ignorant lie.

And the deposits are federally guaranteed anyway.

> Bail outs by the tax payers when it amounts to that much can
> only be done (and is being done) by printing funny money...

Another bare faced pig ignorant lie.

> or via 'e money'..

Another bare faced pig ignorant lie.

> thats the fed loaning to the member banks who
> then loan it to the public...no currency printed.

Another bare faced pig ignorant lie.

> This is one of the dominant final phase features
> before total collapse of an economy...

Another bare faced pig ignorant lie.

We didnt even get that in the great depression, stupid.

> its a well established pattern, for over a thousand years... same pattern.

Another bare faced pig ignorant lie.

Bet you cant even list even one total collapse of any economy in that thousand years, liar.

> The cure is completely nasty,

Nope, nothing nasty about what fixed the great depression, stupid.

> and takes a generation or more...

Another bare faced pig ignorant lie.

> my guess in the US less than that, 20 to 30 years to recovery..

How odd that it didnt with the great depression.

> Half a generation due to our our already built infrastructure, land mass and natural resouces.

How odd that it didnt with the great depression.

> It will be a nasty few decades though, the rest of most peoples lives in fact.

How odd that it didnt with the great depression.

> ...none of that brought to us by either party... but the larger
> cabal of govt, civil service, and corporate interests including
> especially international banking interests which own the
> federal reserve (its a private bank, not US govt owned)..

Another bare faced pig ignorant lie.

> (same with the IRS to a major extent, issue is heavily smoked over).

Another bare faced pig ignorant lie.

> None of these give a rats ass about the nation.... but they do give a
> rats ass about the assets, land, property, buildings, resources...that
> is why the federal reserve is not taking US mortgage documents as
> collateral in exchange for the money it loans the member banks...

Another bare faced pig ignorant lie.

> and that is why US corporations are manufacturing over seas at the
> cost of US jobs and the tax base necessary to support government.

Another bare faced pig ignorant lie.

And the US economy is about a hell of a lot more than just
manufacturing and has been for a hell of a long time now too.

> These dont give a rats ass... especially in a world
> market as has emerged in the recent decades.

Another bare faced pig ignorant lie.

> End result, due to unpayable govt and private debt...
> these international cartels end up owning the property...

Another bare faced pig ignorant lie.

> that is despite the fact that local banks do not want to own
> property. they want to earn interest in the mortgages.

> Dont confuse the two, the fed has issued a statement that it will loan
> up to 80 billion with such collateral now..(two months ago, a precident)...

Another bare faced pig ignorant lie.

> you can bet they will not stop there... the goal as the late George
> Carlin said is to "get it all, all of it, every last fucking dime".

Another bare faced pig ignorant lie.

> Its a video worth looking up on youtube.

Nope. Pure drivel.

> ....and on this path they will. Its happened before.

Another bare faced pig ignorant lie.

> Concentration of wealth stats demonstrate the trend.

Another bare faced pig ignorant lie.

> 20 years ago in the US 20% of the people owned 50% of the wealth...

Another bare faced pig ignorant lie.

> today its around 1% of the US population that owns 50% of the wealth.

Another bare faced pig ignorant lie.

> This ends up decimating a nation

You wouldnt know what a real decimation was if it bit you on your lard arse.

> (mexico for instance, less than 1% owns way more than 80% of the wealth,

Another bare faced pig ignorant lie.

> but verify the stats yourself.. all searchable on the web....
> Mexico is a nation with a decimated middle class,

Another bare faced pig ignorant lie.

> and a massive poverty class...

Because they breed like flys, stupid.

> there is not net national gain or prosperity in that.)

Another bare faced pig ignorant lie.

> The US is solidly into that final phase itself.

Another bare faced pig ignorant lie.

> You see reversal as we did in Romania only
> when the people are actually starving to death

No one starved to death in Romania.

> and put their kids into packed orphanges
> because they cant afford to feed them...

That aint why they put them into orphanages, liar.

> then you see correction.

How odd that we didnt see anything like that even in the great depression.

> The leaders get hung (sometimes), not in India for instance...

And not one was hung in the US during the great depression either.

> its not bad enough there yet apparently.

And never will be either, you watch.

> Our current batch of leaders are not worried about that..

Yep, they arent as stupid as you.

> From the first signs of such and end stage its about 20 years to such a collapse.

How odd that we never saw anything like that in the great depression.

> France ending in bastile day in the 18th century a good example,

Nope. And not one of the great democracys had anything like that anyway.

> it was peaked 20 years earlier. .. the king of france had
> more gold, jewels, land and assets than any other nation....

Another bare faced pig ignorant lie.

> 20 years later, still as king is nation is bankrupt with
> collection pots on street needed to keep his gig in gear...

Another bare faced pig ignorant lie.

> bankrupt paying his national debt to the foreign bankers.

Another bare faced pig ignorant lie.

> This route has been smoke screened in the US
> and manipulated by the dot com boom, then bust.

Just another of your pathetic little drug crazed fantasys.

> My estimate of the final phase peak based on a study of the
> underlying features was the late 1980's.. then kept afloat with dot
> com mess... we are now late into the final 20 year collapse cycle. imo.

How odd that we never saw anything like that in the great depression.

> re comments that 'this is what doomers always say, it never
> happens'.... that old saw is both correct and incorrect.

Nope, completely correct.

> A nation through its lifecycle sees 5 to 6 major depressions

How odd that there were a lot more than that in the century before 1929.

> and many more recessions, all of them recover

Including the depressions.

> .... so the doomers within that cycle were wrong...
> if you consider the great depression a sweet solution..
> we did rebound though.

And didnt see anything like your mindlessly silly claim about complete economic collapse.

That didnt even happen with the french either.

> The *longer *national *life cycles are beyond this scope...these
> have different drivers... these drive a nation to total collapse or to
> oblivion every 260 years ...exceptions make it to 300 years.

Another bare faced pig ignorant lie.

Nothing like that happened with britain, liar.

> (the various Roman states, and empire etc...

Lasted a hell of a lot longer than that, liar.

And pity about china and india and plenty of other societys too.

> the Knights Templar for example... a chain of castles
> with 20' thick walls, dual moats, outer walls 10' thick,
> with foundations too deep to tunnel under...

Not even possible.

> owning virtually all of the gold in the world at the time..

Another bare faced pig ignorant lie.

> vast cisterns of grain and fresh water enough to last years......
> poooooof.. gone in 20 years from that peak.

Didnt happen with the major castles in europe, fool.

> Many of the same drivers...

Nope, and even someone as stupid as you should have
noticed that we dont even bother with castles anymore.

> they became corrupt, they lost their ability to win wars, they
> were overrun despite their chain of bullet proof fortresses.

Nope, the Normans never were.

> Its a very interesting study.

Its pure pig ignorant drivel actually.

> its drivers are demographic...

Wrong again.

> a population gets fat, dumb and lazy...it elects idiots...
> it tolerates corruption in order to get a govt check....
> collapse is fast after that...

How odd that didnt happen with Britain.

> its attempts to seize the assets of other nations not withstanding...
> these only generate enemies on a 360 degree perimeter.

And the english managed to do that for a hell of a lot longer than 260 years, fool.

> the US is currently in that situation.

Nope. Nothing like it.

> imo.

Your opinion is completely worthless.

> ymmv.

gtre

== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 3 2008 3:18 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

clams_casino <PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote

> Watched a news commentary this morning that made the claim the US is not really in a recession, but rather it's
> undergoing a significant
> cost-of-living adjustment (significant reduction in living standards).

Or it might well end up with both.

> While the end result may appear to be similar, tools to reverse the trend were claimed to be significantly different.

There are no 'tools' to fix the cost of energy.

> If it was simply a recession, low interest rates & tax rebates would likely be a solution to jump start the recession,
> but neither was felt to be a solution (and may actually create a stagflation recession similar to the 70's) for the
> reduced living standard problem.

> They really did not have any solutions for the government, essentially
> concluding that everyone will just have to get use to a lower standard
> of living (giving up something to offset the higher cost of gas / energy).

That assumes the cost of energy will stay high. It didnt in the 70s.

> Guess getting more frugal is more important than ever.

Unlikely.

> Gee. I wonder who is profiting from the higher energy costs?

Obviously those who are sourcing that energy.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: FOOD RECALL: Lobster liver contaminated with potentially fatal levels
of toxins
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/8a78e89408882dc7?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 3 2008 2:41 pm
From: Al Bundy

On Jul 29, 1:09 pm, James <j0069b...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Jul 29, 10:27 am, balanc...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jJCB3jCj46AXmkHWoyW95rQqObnQD9273AL84
>
> > FDA warns against eating lobster liver
>
> > 17 hours ago
>
> > WASHINGTON (AP) — The government warned consumers Monday not to eat
> > the soft, green substance found in the body cavity of lobsters, saying
> > it may be contaminated with a toxin.
>
> > It's still OK to eat the white lobster meat found in the claws and
> > tails of the undersea delicacy, but the green stuff that most diners
> > already avoid should definitely be discarded this year, said the Food
> > and Drug Administration. Known also as tomalley, the substance acts as
> > the liver and pancreas of the lobster.
>
> > A red tide — or algae bloom — ranging from Northern New England to
> > Canada this year has contaminated fishing grounds with high levels of
> > toxins that cause paralytic shellfish poisoning. The federal warning
> > follows similar advisories from public health authorities in Maine,
> > Massachusetts, New Hampshire and Canada.
>
> > The warning applies to American lobster, also known as Maine lobster,
> > which is harvested in Atlantic waters from Canada to South Carolina.
>
> > Cooking does not eliminate the toxins, but studies have shown that
> > even when high levels are present in the tomalley, lobster meat is
> > usually not affected, the FDA said.
>
> > Symptoms of paralytic shell fish poisoning usually appear within two
> > hours of exposure. They include tingling and numbness of the mouth,
> > face or neck, muscle weakness, headache and nausea. Anyone who suffers
> > such symptoms should see a doctor, the FDA said. In rare cases, people
> > who consume a large amount of toxin can suffer respiratory failure and
> > death.
>
> Eating lobster without eating the tomalley is like kissing your sister.

So what you are saying is you're going to get a disease either way?

==============================================================================
TOPIC: OIL DROP BRINGS NO RELIEF TO THE PUMP
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/351c5b291d2395bb?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 3 2008 3:31 pm
From: Tim Campbell

OIL DROP BRINGS NO RELIEF TO THE PUMP
By JOHN AIDAN BYRNE
Last updated: 2:18 pm
August 3, 2008
Posted: 4:07 am
August 3, 2008
Motorists who have watched the price of crude oil drop 15 percent in
the past three weeks while the average price at the pump has come down
just 3 percent are getting drilled, two leading energy analysts
claim.
The two claim that owners of the US's 160,000 gas stations are not
dropping retail gas prices in line with the drop in oil because they
want to fatten their anemic margins.
"Of course, motorists are getting hosed," says Weeden & Co.'s Charles
Maxwell, who's known as the "dean" of energy analysts.
"The dealers at the pump will often wait several days before passing
along the drop in crude prices - and I don't blame them," Maxwell
said. "If their competitors aren't going to drop the price, the dealer
isn't."
Jeff Lenard, a spokesman for the National Association of Convenience
Stores, whose members own 2,200 gas stations, admitted that some of
his members are slow to drop pump prices as oil prices fall.
"They need to make money, otherwise they won't be in business," said
Lenard.
"We wouldn't look kindly on gas stations not passing along a drop in
the price of oil," says AAA's Robert Sinclair.
"The chart and data we gathered absolutely proves that as oil goes up
gas rises at a faster rate, and as oil goes down gas falls at a slower
rate," says Gerry Mastrianni, managing director of the Florida-based
trading firm. "The reason is price gouging at the pump."
The price of oil rose to $125.10 a barrel on Friday, falling from its
July 11 high of $147.27. The average price of a gallon of unleaded gas
dropped to $3.96, according to the US Dept. of Energy. It hit a high
of $4.34 on July 7.

http://www.nypost.com/seven/08032008/business/oil_drop_brings_no_relief_to_the_pump_122827.htm

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 3 2008 4:18 pm
From: Starkiller

On Sun, 3 Aug 2008 15:31:37 -0700 (PDT), Tim Campbell
<timcall@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>OIL DROP BRINGS NO RELIEF TO THE PUMP
>By JOHN AIDAN BYRNE
>Last updated: 2:18 pm
>August 3, 2008
>Posted: 4:07 am
>August 3, 2008
>Motorists who have watched the price of crude oil drop 15 percent in
>the past three weeks while the average price at the pump has come down
>just 3 percent are getting drilled, two leading energy analysts
>claim.
>The two claim that owners of the US's 160,000 gas stations are not
>dropping retail gas prices in line with the drop in oil because they
>want to fatten their anemic margins.
>"Of course, motorists are getting hosed," says Weeden & Co.'s Charles
>Maxwell, who's known as the "dean" of energy analysts.
>"The dealers at the pump will often wait several days before passing
>along the drop in crude prices - and I don't blame them," Maxwell
>said. "If their competitors aren't going to drop the price, the dealer
>isn't."
>Jeff Lenard, a spokesman for the National Association of Convenience
>Stores, whose members own 2,200 gas stations, admitted that some of
>his members are slow to drop pump prices as oil prices fall.
>"They need to make money, otherwise they won't be in business," said
>Lenard.
>"We wouldn't look kindly on gas stations not passing along a drop in
>the price of oil," says AAA's Robert Sinclair.
>"The chart and data we gathered absolutely proves that as oil goes up
>gas rises at a faster rate, and as oil goes down gas falls at a slower
>rate," says Gerry Mastrianni, managing director of the Florida-based
>trading firm. "The reason is price gouging at the pump."
>The price of oil rose to $125.10 a barrel on Friday, falling from its
>July 11 high of $147.27. The average price of a gallon of unleaded gas
>dropped to $3.96, according to the US Dept. of Energy. It hit a high
>of $4.34 on July 7.
>
>http://www.nypost.com/seven/08032008/business/oil_drop_brings_no_relief_to_the_pump_122827.htm

Ironically, around here, I can find regular at $3.61 a gallon and
premium is at $3.83. Diesel is down to $4.25. At Hagees (pronounced
Ha-Jeez) I believe they are Algerian. They have two stations, both
BP franchises, within 200 yards of each other. They're are selling it
for just a few cents above wholesale. They make a greater profit
margin selling what convenience stores sell for the ridiculous prices
they charge.
It should be noted, though, that the highest regular sold for in this
area at the recent peak was around $4.10 a gallon.
And the fact that the Valero refinery is here means that the finished
product only has to be transported a few miles to hit the local
stations which costs the station owners less.
I always thought that refinery was a handy thing to have around.

Regards

Starkiller

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