Frugal Living: Jan 4, 2008

Friday, January 4, 2008

25 new messages in 14 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

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TOPIC: Which is more frugal - keep thermostat at 62 or bump up to 66 and let
fall
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/32bcb9a55cab5416?hl=en
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== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 4 2008 11:39 am
From: "bungalow_steve@yahoo.com"

On Jan 4, 11:10 am, <h> wrote:
> "Joe" <joe5...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:b2a4263c-85fb-497e-918f-0d41416f6175@5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>
> > back down to 62? It will work harder to get up to the higher temp but
> > then it will not cycle for 4 or 5 hours. If I keep it set at 62 it
> > will cycle every 30 min. Which uses less energy?
>
> Why set it so high? I leave mine at 58 all winter, all the time, and just
> wear a sweater.

at 58, a sweater is not enough to keep most skinny people comfortable

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 4 2008 7:29 pm
From: "Nicik Name"

"Joe" <joe5345@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:b2a4263c-85fb-497e-918f-0d41416f6175@5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> back down to 62? It will work harder to get up to the higher temp but
> then it will not cycle for 4 or 5 hours. If I keep it set at 62 it
> will cycle every 30 min. Which uses less energy?
Question is mute....
This is the wealthiest country on earth why would anyone here want to lower
their thermostat down to 62 in winter is beyond me.

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 4 2008 7:39 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

Nicik Name <orbits@ix.netcom.com> wrote
> Joe <joe5345@gmail.com> wrote

>> back down to 62? It will work harder to get up to the higher temp but
>> then it will not cycle for 4 or 5 hours. If I keep it set at 62 it
>> will cycle every 30 min. Which uses less energy?

> Question is mute....

moot, actually.

> This is the wealthiest country on earth

Thats arguable.

> why would anyone here want to lower their thermostat down to 62 in winter is beyond me.

Because even in the wealthiest country on earth, there are some dregs who cant afford it.

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 4 2008 9:15 pm
From: Logan Shaw

Nicik Name wrote:
> "Joe" <joe5345@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:b2a4263c-85fb-497e-918f-0d41416f6175@5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...

>> back down to 62? It will work harder to get up to the higher temp but
>> then it will not cycle for 4 or 5 hours. If I keep it set at 62 it
>> will cycle every 30 min. Which uses less energy?

> Question is mute....
> This is the wealthiest country on earth why would anyone here want to lower
> their thermostat down to 62 in winter is beyond me.

I don't know. I've never been to Luxembourg, so I don't know why you guys
over there would want to set your thermostats to 62F. Or for that matter,
I can't figure out why people in Luxembourg are measuring temperatures on
the Fahrenheit scale at all. :-)

- Logan

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Best frugal technology deal you've gotten
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/432b1da46fece658?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 4 2008 1:37 pm
From: Al Bundy

On Jan 4, 8:36 am, "OhioGuy" <n...@none.net> wrote:
> What's the best technology deal you've gotten in the past couple of
> months?
>
> For me, it was the PNY 2 GB USB flash drive I picked up at Staples for
> $8.48 using a competitor's $15 off coupon. I actually got two of them, to
> replace the old 512 MB ones my wife and I were using.

We are soooo impressed.

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 4 2008 5:38 pm
From: Marsha

Al Bundy wrote:
> On Jan 4, 8:36 am, "OhioGuy" <n...@none.net> wrote:
>
>> What's the best technology deal you've gotten in the past couple of
>>months?
>>
>> For me, it was the PNY 2 GB USB flash drive I picked up at Staples for
>>$8.48 using a competitor's $15 off coupon. I actually got two of them, to
>>replace the old 512 MB ones my wife and I were using.
>
>
> We are soooo impressed.

Sooooo, what's the best technology deal you've gotten?

Marsha/Ohio

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 4 2008 8:14 pm
From: Shawn Hirn

In article <fllcpc$f0h$1@aioe.org>, "OhioGuy" <none@none.net> wrote:

> What's the best technology deal you've gotten in the past couple of
> months?
>
> For me, it was the PNY 2 GB USB flash drive I picked up at Staples for
> $8.48 using a competitor's $15 off coupon. I actually got two of them, to
> replace the old 512 MB ones my wife and I were using.

Getting my employer to buy me a Palm Treo 700p and pay for my monthly
cell phone bill is probably the best frugal deal I did, but the boss
does actually expect me to answer my cell phone. Fortunately, work
related calls during off-hours are infrequent for me.

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 4 2008 9:33 pm
From: Gordon

"OhioGuy" <none@none.net> wrote in news:fllcpc$f0h$1@aioe.org:

> What's the best technology deal you've gotten in the past couple of
> months?
>
> For me, it was the PNY 2 GB USB flash drive I picked up at Staples
> for
> $8.48 using a competitor's $15 off coupon. I actually got two of
> them, to replace the old 512 MB ones my wife and I were using.
>
>

Free iPod from Key Bank.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: How do you cut your utility cost?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/0f775dcaf5b9b909?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 4 2008 2:43 pm
From: Jeff

Brian Elfert wrote:
> "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> writes:
>
>>> how much can one expect to save by cutting their thermostat setting by
>>> 10 degrees?
>
>> Varys with how well the house is insulated.
>
>> If the insulation is perfect, it wont have any effect.
>
> Insulation slows heat loss. It cannot stop heat loss.

Absolutely. The formula is simple:

Heat loss in BTU's/hr = (Area in ft^2/R value) * Temperature difference

There is no infinite R insulation. Heat is lost through all surfaces
where there is a temperature difference.

Even in well insulated homes, one third of the heat loss is through
air infiltration. If you could completely seal the house, you would be
asphyxiated. That does not mean that Air exchange heat losses can't be
mitigated, it does mean they do exist and are sizeable for most homes.
>
> If you heat a house to 65 degrees and the temperature outside is lower
> than 65 degrees you will lose heat. It is just a matter of how long it
> takes for the heat to be lost. This of course assumes nothing in the
> house is generating any heat at all.

Absolutely again. Every person is contributing some 300+ BTUs/hr of
heat. Every appliance and light is contributing heat. 8 people is
equivalent to an electric space heater running full time on half power.
Every BTU adds up.

Jeff
>
> Brian Elfert

== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 4 2008 2:50 pm
From: nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu

Jeff <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote:
>Brian Elfert wrote:
>> "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>>> how much can one expect to save by cutting their thermostat setting by
>>>> 10 degrees?
>>
>>> Varys with how well the house is insulated.
>>
>>> If the insulation is perfect, it wont have any effect.
>>
>> Insulation slows heat loss. It cannot stop heat loss.
>
> Absolutely. The formula is simple:
>
>Heat loss in BTU's/hr = (Area in ft^2/R value) * Temperature difference
>
> There is no infinite R insulation. Heat is lost through all surfaces
>where there is a temperature difference.
>
> Even in well insulated homes, one third of the heat loss is through
>air infiltration.

A 2400 ft^2 Canadian house might only lose 2.5 Btu/h-F to natural air leaks.

Nick

== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 4 2008 4:32 pm
From: val189

On Jan 2, 8:28 am, Lou <loup...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Can anyone tell me how they actually cut thier utility bills?
> For instance, I have a shut off valve attatched to my shower
> head so when it's time to soap up, I don't waste water down the
> drain. Any other ideas?
> Lou

Things I did:

installed metal roof, well insulated

low flow toilets

new windows

Yes, these items were expensive in and of themselves, but they were
installed for other reasons. The electricity and water savings was a
side benefit.

My water, btw, is billed in 1000 gal increments, but it's a continuous
type billing. Some times I luck out and am billed for one unit less
than the previous month.

My sewer rate is $1.80 for ev. dollar of water billed.

== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 4 2008 5:53 pm
From: Logan Shaw

Of course, there is no such thing as perfect insulation. But obviously
the point was to understand the limit that insulation can asymptotically
approach as it gets better and better.

This is just like when you study Newtonian mechanics and you assume an
ideal, frictionless surface. Or when you assume a pulley with zero mass.

Incidentally, a perfect vacuum (which is also impossible!) is a pretty
darned good insulator. It is not a perfect insulator, but it's remarkably
close.

- Logan

== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 4 2008 9:14 pm
From: Jeff

nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu wrote:
> Jeff <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote:
>> Brian Elfert wrote:
>>> "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> writes:
>>>
>>>>> how much can one expect to save by cutting their thermostat setting by
>>>>> 10 degrees?
>>>> Varys with how well the house is insulated.
>>>> If the insulation is perfect, it wont have any effect.
>>> Insulation slows heat loss. It cannot stop heat loss.
>> Absolutely. The formula is simple:
>>
>> Heat loss in BTU's/hr = (Area in ft^2/R value) * Temperature difference
>>
>> There is no infinite R insulation. Heat is lost through all surfaces
>> where there is a temperature difference.
>>
>> Even in well insulated homes, one third of the heat loss is through
>> air infiltration.
>
> A 2400 ft^2 Canadian house might only lose 2.5 Btu/h-F to natural air leaks.

Well, those Canadians got it going on! How do they do that? Do they
need to add air?

Jeff
>
> Nick
>

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TOPIC: Can Soup Kitchens Spoil People?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/5c28abb4f7f76ea1?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 4 2008 4:36 pm
From: val189

On Jan 3, 3:26 pm, BrotherSandMonkey <blin...@volcanomail.com> wrote:

A
> hypothetical question: can people be spoiled by soup
> kitchens?

You sound like you're worried somebody might be gettin' sumthin' fer
nuthin'. It's not like they're serving Beef Wellington there.

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Date: Fri, Jan 4 2008 5:37 pm
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http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/71253675f3279be3?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 4 2008 6:47 pm
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TOPIC: Honda Civic or Toyota Corolla or Mazda, which is best????
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/3262f8c1d706d9af?hl=en
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== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 4 2008 10:06 pm
From: JL

> You post in a frugal newsgroup and talk of resale value? Not frugal
> at all. Keep a car ten years and it has little resale value. Keep it
> less time than that and you're screwing yourself out of money.

Yep. Maintain the car well and keep it 10 years. But some people just
get sick of a car and want something different after 5 years.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 4 2008 10:10 pm
From: JL

> The advantage of a Honda or Toyota is that you end up buying less cars
> over time.

In 1992, my brother bought a '86 Toyota pickup (22r engine) that had
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25 new messages in 18 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

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http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/cf9d5233722736a8?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 4 2008 1:00 am
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TOPIC: lady's shoes & dress
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 4 2008 1:24 am
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TOPIC: School Loans Consolidation
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TOPIC: 1,001 Deals And Steals: A Guide To Online Classifieds
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 4 2008 3:19 am
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TOPIC: Save Me 3
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/678ea5579057b379?hl=en
==============================================================================

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Date: Fri, Jan 4 2008 3:56 am
From: lianzhaowei888@yahoo.cn

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== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 4 2008 5:00 am
From: clams_casino

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>Description:
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http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/4a0470893d0b5f14?hl=en
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TOPIC: Let's take down the MI5 nut poster
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/488c35f9f82f75e6?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 4 2008 5:08 am
From: Chris Caputo

Hi. Sorry about this. The flooder was stopped as quickly as I could do
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Chris Caputo
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imascot <imnot@mycomputer.now> writes:
>I have complained to Altopia.com, the news server this individual is using. Please join me and copy
>just one of his messages, showing full headers, to abuse@altopia.com What I wrote was:

>Dear Altopia:
>Someone posting from your news server is absolutely flooding USENET with spam, posting scores of
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>Here is just one message, with full headers:

>Path: be18.lga!hwmnpeer02.lga!hw-filter.lga!hwmnpeer01.lga!hwmnpeer01.phx!news.highwinds-
>media.com!newsfeed.news2me.com!news-in-01.newsfeed.easynews.com!easynews.com!easynews!
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>From: imvfvefi@gmail.com
>Newsgroups: alt.support.diet.low-carb,dfw.music,cz.comp.lang.python,alt.sex.video,ccu.bbs.food
>Subject: M'I`5,Persecutio n , abu se in set-up situa tions a nd in pub lic
>Followup-To: alt.support.diet.low-
>carb,dfw.music,cz.comp.lang.python,alt.sex.video,ccu.bbs.food,uk.misc
>Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 14:49:47 +0000 (UTC)
>Organization: Altopia Corp. - Usenet Access - www.altopia.com
>Lines: 106
>Message-ID: <tc0800011449465706@4ax.com>
>Xref: Hurricane-Charley alt.support.diet.low-carb:181686 dfw.music:3208 cz.comp.lang.python:5243
>alt.sex.video:5252 ccu.bbs.food:6873
>X-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 07:49:47 MST (be18.lga)

>-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>-= abuse in set-up. situations and in public -=
>-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

>Strangers in the street have. recognized me on sight many times, and shown
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>context; that they should have. paid my "fare", each time emphasizing the
>word (usual paranoid ranting snipped)

>3713

>Please take action on this individual, it is making USENET unbearable.

>Thank you,

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 4 2008 5:32 am
From: "OhioGuy"

It is usually best to leave it at the same temperature, unless of course
you are going to be gone for a while. For example, if nobody is going to be
home from 8 in the morning until 6PM, you might let the temp drop a bit
during the day.

In my case, we use those electric radiant oil filled heaters. The rooms
where we spend the most time are warmest, and the rooms where we spend the
least time are coldest. It makes the bathroom pretty cold, though not cold
enough to worry about the pipes. Besides, with just one bathroom in the
house, this way there isn't much incentive to sit in there and read on the
toilet for a long time.

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 4 2008 8:10 am
From:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why set it so high? I leave mine at 58 all winter, all the time, and just
wear a sweater.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 4 2008 10:25 am
From: Joe

I would, I actually work in my basement that doesn't have heat at all
and gets as low as 52 in the dead of the winter, but my wife insists
on keeping the heat higher.

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 4 2008 5:36 am
From: "OhioGuy"

What's the best technology deal you've gotten in the past couple of
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== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 4 2008 8:08 am
From:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Jeff" <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote in message
news:13nq1hv3pan7k4e@corp.supernews.com...
> Evelyn C. Leeper wrote:
>> Leroy wrote:
>>> Rod Speed wrote:
>>>> Evelyn C. Leeper <eleeper@optonline.net> wrote:
>>>>> It is especially important in the summer to avoid turning on more
>>>>> lights and heavy motors, since they will heat up the house and make
>>>>> the A/C work harder.
>>>>
>>>> Nope, those make a trivial difference with A/C.
>>>
>>> Bullshite. A few hundred watts of heat is quite noticable. I'm in
>>> a 34 foot RV and 400 watts of electric heat is more than enough
>>> to keep the interior 30 degrees F warmer than the exterior.
>>>
>>> In the summer, any standby energy consumed results in heat
>>> which must be removed by AC using yet more energy.
>>
>> To back up Leroy (who was backing me up), in the summertime I notice a
>> definite difference in temperature in our family room when I have the six
>> ceiling lights turned on for any significant time. (In the winter, one
>> doesn't mind as much, but I'm sure the effect is still there.)
>
>
> Let's take 100 watts of extra power. That could be just one incandescent
> bulb. Run that all day and you have over 8000 BTU's That would be a small
> to mid size room AC running for one hour. Obviously that's a good reason
> to decrease heating load by using bulbs that consume less power, like
> CFLs.
>
> But even CFLs use power. Leave on a 14W CFL and you'll use almost
> 11kWhrs a month. THats over a dollar at 10 cents/kWhr and just for one
> bulb. So turning off even small electrical appliances adds up. And it
> would take a small AC five hours to remove the thirty six thousand BTUs.
>
> We'll leave phantom watts for another discussion. But many seldom used
> appliances consume much more power off and idling than on. When you attack
> energy consumption you target the biggest users first, then move down the
> ladder.
>
> None of this means you should be anal about consumption, but everything
> has some cost that adds up over time. Just like turning off a light in a
> room you aren't in makes sense, sometimes it's worth leaving a light on,
> but it still has a cost.
>
> Jeff

I changed all my light bulbs to CFLs a few years ago. It wasn't so much the
energy savings as the savings on the bulbs themselves, plus reducing the
heat the old bulbs produced. Since we don't use AC, we noticed a huge
difference in comfort level immediately in the kitchen and my workroom. We
did this in the summer (Upstate NY), and the last day of incandescents the
kitchen was 90 at 3pm and the next day it was 80 (same highs both days). My
work room dropped 20 degrees from 102 to 82. MUCH more pleasant.

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 4 2008 8:34 am
From: Jeff

h wrote:
> "Jeff" <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote in message
> news:13nq1hv3pan7k4e@corp.supernews.com...
>> Evelyn C. Leeper wrote:
>>> Leroy wrote:
>>>> Rod Speed wrote:
>>>>> Evelyn C. Leeper <eleeper@optonline.net> wrote:
>>>>>> It is especially important in the summer to avoid turning on more
>>>>>> lights and heavy motors, since they will heat up the house and make
>>>>>> the A/C work harder.
>>>>> Nope, those make a trivial difference with A/C.
>>>> Bullshite. A few hundred watts of heat is quite noticable. I'm in
>>>> a 34 foot RV and 400 watts of electric heat is more than enough
>>>> to keep the interior 30 degrees F warmer than the exterior.
>>>>
>>>> In the summer, any standby energy consumed results in heat
>>>> which must be removed by AC using yet more energy.
>>> To back up Leroy (who was backing me up), in the summertime I notice a
>>> definite difference in temperature in our family room when I have the six
>>> ceiling lights turned on for any significant time. (In the winter, one
>>> doesn't mind as much, but I'm sure the effect is still there.)
>>
>> Let's take 100 watts of extra power. That could be just one incandescent
>> bulb. Run that all day and you have over 8000 BTU's That would be a small
>> to mid size room AC running for one hour. Obviously that's a good reason
>> to decrease heating load by using bulbs that consume less power, like
>> CFLs.
>>
>> But even CFLs use power. Leave on a 14W CFL and you'll use almost
>> 11kWhrs a month. THats over a dollar at 10 cents/kWhr and just for one
>> bulb. So turning off even small electrical appliances adds up. And it
>> would take a small AC five hours to remove the thirty six thousand BTUs.
>>
>> We'll leave phantom watts for another discussion. But many seldom used
>> appliances consume much more power off and idling than on. When you attack
>> energy consumption you target the biggest users first, then move down the
>> ladder.
>>
>> None of this means you should be anal about consumption, but everything
>> has some cost that adds up over time. Just like turning off a light in a
>> room you aren't in makes sense, sometimes it's worth leaving a light on,
>> but it still has a cost.
>>
>> Jeff
>
> I changed all my light bulbs to CFLs a few years ago. It wasn't so much the
> energy savings as the savings on the bulbs themselves, plus reducing the
> heat the old bulbs produced. Since we don't use AC, we noticed a huge
> difference in comfort level immediately in the kitchen and my workroom. We
> did this in the summer (Upstate NY), and the last day of incandescents the
> kitchen was 90 at 3pm and the next day it was 80 (same highs both days). My
> work room dropped 20 degrees from 102 to 82. MUCH more pleasant.
>

CFLs are wonderful things. And if you buy a brand name they last much
longer. That's more a caution not to buy any from the offbrand discount
stores. Those tend to be just as bad as the others are good. I've had
good results here with lifespan, I think I've replaced one in the last 5
years.

Nice to hear you've made a big boost to your comfort level just by
switching. Kitchens and workrooms need to be well lit and it's great
that you no longer have to withstand the heat and can stay in the kitchen!

Jeff
>

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 4 2008 10:52 am
From: Brian Elfert

"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> writes:

>> how much can one expect to save by cutting their thermostat setting by
>> 10 degrees?

>Varys with how well the house is insulated.

>If the insulation is perfect, it wont have any effect.

Insulation slows heat loss. It cannot stop heat loss.

If you heat a house to 65 degrees and the temperature outside is lower
than 65 degrees you will lose heat. It is just a matter of how long it
takes for the heat to be lost. This of course assumes nothing in the
house is generating any heat at all.

Brian Elfert

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 4 2008 11:08 am
From: "Rod Speed"

Brian Elfert <belfert@visi.com> wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote

>>> how much can one expect to save by cutting their thermostat setting by 10 degrees?

>> Varys with how well the house is insulated.

>> If the insulation is perfect, it wont have any effect.

> Insulation slows heat loss. It cannot stop heat loss.

Wrong, as always.

> If you heat a house to 65 degrees and the temperature
> outside is lower than 65 degrees you will lose heat. It
> is just a matter of how long it takes for the heat to be lost.

And if the insulation is perfect, that will be a very long time, stupid.

> This of course assumes nothing in the house is generating any heat at all.

Which is a stupid assumption. In practice its prefectly possible to
have the insulation so good that the heat generated by the individuals
and stuff like lights sees the temperature rise due to that heat.

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Date: Fri, Jan 4 2008 9:37 am
From: Jeff

BrotherSandMonkey wrote:
> There is obviously a need for soup kitchens to exist in the light of
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> kitchens?
>
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Frugal Living

Blog Archive

Friday, January 4, 2008

25 new messages in 14 topics - digest

25 new messages in 18 topics - digest