Frugal Living: Feb 21, 2008

Thursday, February 21, 2008

25 new messages in 8 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

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TOPIC: $45us per HID kit
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/8a98fc3d2a5f6faf?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 21 2008 9:45 am
From: eyki_love@126.com

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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/e565eaf98e0e70b6?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 10 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 21 2008 9:49 am
From: zekfrivo@zekfrivolous.com (GregS)

In article <rngvj.12726$0w.4723@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net>, "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>Following is a idealized anatomy of a hot water heater replacement and
>recommended maintenance performed, basically, on the Internet, in real
>time, with the help of everyone here.
>
>This procedure, which combines the best found on the Internet and which
>takes into account *every* single of the hundreds of replies in this
>newsgroup, is posted with the hope that the next amateur replacing their
>natural gas galvanized pipe home hot water heater prints this out and
>follows it to their delight and benefit!
>
>A complete set of photos of every step below is available at
>http://www.flickr.com/donnaohl
>
>Here it is... this is an idealized version of my experience last week!
>
>If you have old galvanized pipes, consider these preventive steps:
>- Remove all debris screens from faucets, & tubs to prevent clogging
>- Shut water to dishwaswher to prevent clogging of dishwasher screens
>- Remove tub valves (I think) to prevent clogging of tubs
>
>Remove the hot-water heater:
>- Shut off the natural gas at the main gas meter (optional)
>- Shut off the natural gas at the local hot-water heater (mandatory)
>- Wait for the pilot light to go out to ensure no gas is left in the line
>- Turn the thermostat on the hot-water heater to the off position
>- Wait overnight, if possible, to allow the hot water in the tank to cool
>- Or run 10 or 20 gallons of hot water in the house to dilute the tank
>- You will be very glad you cooled the water in the tank: Trust me!
>- Shut off the main household cold water (if replacing the gate valve)
>- Shut the cold-water gate-valve right-side inlet to the hot-water heater
>- Open at least one hot-water faucet in the house to drain off pressure
>- Open the temperature and pressure valve as a safety measure (optional)
>- Unscrew the cold-water inlet at the nipple at the top of the tank
>- Unscrew the hot-water outlet at the nipple at the top of the tank
>- Use two wrenches on flex connectors or they twist like a phone cord!
>- Unscrew the natural gas inlet to the water-heater thermostat
>- Cap the newly disconnected natural gas line to prevent contamination
>- Connect a garden hose to the plastic hot-water-heater drain valve
>- Open drain valve to drain hot water where it will not damage anything
>- If 40/50 gallons doesn't come out something is clogged (very common)
>- Shake and prod and push to get the water out (it happened to me)
>- Otherwise you'll be moving a full tank which can tip (it happened to me)
>- Disconnect garden hose and close drain valve when done (40 or 50 gallons)
>- Unscrew the sheet-metal screw holding the vent pipe to the draft hood
>- Separate the vent pipe from the draft hood (the hat on top middle)
>- Unscrew sheet-metal screws holding gas-flue hat onto the vent pipe
>- Separate the vent pipe from the gas-flue hat on top center of your heater
>- Unscrew the seismic straps (if any) as the last thing before removal
>- Remove old heater off the elevated base with two people and a handtruck
>- Remove all water plumbing up to and including the old shut-off valve
>- Remove all gas plumbing up to and including the old shut-off valve
>
>Replace hot-water heater:
>WHILE THE NEW TANK IS SITTING (DRY) ON THE GARAGE FLOOR:
>- Remove the heater from the box by cutting the box completely open
>- Replace the plastic drain valve with a brass ball valve (optional)
>- Install the new temperature and pressure (T&P) relief valve (if needed)
>- Note: The brass T&P relief valve may already be installed on your tank
>- Install the cold water dialectric check-valve nipple (on the top right)
>- Install the hot water dialectric ckeck-valve nipple (on the top left)
>- Note: The 2 check-valve nipples may already be installed on your tank.
>- Wrap three layers of teflon tape on each dialectric check-valve nipple
>- Remember: Always use 2 wrenches when screwing & unscrewing pipe fittings!
>
>MOUNT THE TANK & POSITION THE VENT AND HOOD:
>- Mount and level the new hot water heater on the 18-inch elevated base
>- Ensure at least six inches of clear space all around the new heater
>- Hacksaw the old gas vent so that it fits the new larger water heater
>- Ensure the gas vent aligns with the center of the hot-water heater
>- Insert legs of the draft hood into the holes in the top of the heater
>- Drill a 1/8 inch hole into the draft hood and 3-inch vent pipe
>- Screw in at least 1 sheet-metal screw from the vent hood to the vent pipe
>
>ATTACH THE COLD WATER INLET:
>- Wrap Teflon tape on the threads of the fittings supplied with the tank
>- Insert a blue heat-trap fitting (arrow down) into the cold-water inlet
>- Ensure the last two threads are never covered with Teflon tape
>- Look end-on through all fittings to ensure no Teflon tape overlap
>- Do not use pipe dope on any threads where Teflon tape is noted below
>- Screw the cold-water inlet male:male nipple into the top of the tank
>- Wrap Teflon tape on the thread of the galvanized 3/4" water-inlet pipe
>- Screw a dialectric union on the 3/4" galvanized cold-water inlet pipe
>- Check for Teflon tape on the threads of each male:male brass nipple
>- Screw the brass male:male nipple on the female:female dialectric union
>- Screw a new ball-valve shutoff onto this vertical cold-water inlet pipe
>- Wrap Teflon tape on the threads of another male:male brass nipple
>- Screw this male:male nipple into the new ball-valve shutoff
>- Screw the copper flex pipe onto the cold-water inlet brass nipples
>
>ATTACH THE HOT WATER OUTLET:
>- Wrap Teflon tape on the threads of the fittings supplied with the tank
>- Ensure the last two threads are never covered with Teflon tape
>- Do not use pipe dope on any threads where Teflon tape is noted below
>- Insert a red heat-trap fitting (arrow up) into the tank hot-water outlet
>- Wrap Teflon tape on the thread of the galvanized 3/4" water-outlet pipe
>- Screw a dialectric union on the 3/4" galvanized hot-water outlet pipe
>- Wrap Teflon tape on the threads of each male:male brass nipple
>- Screw the brass male:male nipple on the female:female dialectric union
>- Screw a new one-way check-valve onto this vertical hot-water outlet pipe
>- Wrap Teflon tape on the threads of another male:male brass nipple
>- Screw this male:male nipple into the new ball-valve shutoff
>- Screw the copper flex pipe onto the hot-water inlet brass nipples
>- Bend the copper flex pipe into an S shape to further inhibit heat loss
>
>ATTACH THE T&P SAFETY PIPE:
>- Screw on rigid high-temperature water pipe to the T&P valve
>- The open outlet must be six inches (no more, no less) from the floor
>- The open outlet must not be threaded; no valves or traps are allowed
>- Place a bowl or bucket at the outlet of this open overflow pipe
>- Test the T&P valve & plumbing by flipping the little aluminum lever
>- Scalding hot water should sputter out of the pipe outlet
>
>TURN ON THE WATER SUPPLY:
>- Optionally, remove all the screens from your water faucets
>- Optionally, shut off the water to your dishwasher to prevent clogging
>- Optionally, remove the shower heads to prevent clogging
>- I'm not sure what to remove yet to prevent your tub from clogging
>- Open at least one hot-water faucet in the house to bleed out air
>- Slowly open the main cold-water input to the house
>- Open the new ball-valve cold-water input to the hot-water heater
>- Check for leaks in the plumbing as the tank fills
>- Place a pan or bowl at the T&P overflow tube & test the T&P valve
>
>ATTACH THE NATURAL GAS INLET:
>- Always connect the natural gas line as the very last step in this process
>- Set the thermostat on the hot-water heater to the off position
>- Coat male natural gas line threads with stick pipe dope (no teflon)
>- Ensure the last two threads are not covered with any pipe dope
>- Connect the new (yellow) natural gas flex pipe to the thermostat
>- Turn on natural gas at the main switch (if it was turned off)
>- Turn on natural gas at the local inlet to the water heater
>- Test for leaks by toothbrushing a solution of dish detergent and water
>- Read and carefully follow the manufacturer's lighting instructions
>
>INSULATION:
>- Wrap additional insulation around your hot-water heater, if desired
>- Wrap insulation around your hot-water outlet pipe, if desired
>
>DISPOSAL:
>- Perform an autopsy on the old water heater by removing all plumbing
>- Remove & inspect the 1 1/16 inch 3-foot 8-inch sacrificial anode
>- Remove & inspect the T&P valve
>- Call the local garbage or recycling to haul away the old water heater
>
>Twice a year:
>- Clint combusion-air lint screens (at the bottom inch of the water heater)
>- Place a pan or bowl at the temperature & pressure valve overflow tube
>- Test the T&P valve by flipping the lever as water violently sputters out
>- Turn the natural gas to the PILOT setting (or shut it off completely)
>- Leave the cold-water intake valve open at the top right of the heater
>- Open at least one hot-water faucet on any level above the water heater
>- Gently connect a garden hose to your hot water heater drain valve
>- Route the open end of the garden hose where hot water won't damage things
>- Open the lower drain valve to empty a few gallons of muddy hot water
>- Shut the drain valve when that water runs clear (approx 10 gallons)
>- Once every three years, remove the 1 1/16-inch sacrificial anode
>- Replace the 3'8" sacrificial anode if corroded or calcium passivated
>- To replace, bend the magnesium anode or replace with sausage links
>- Turn the natural gas back on and ensure the burner is working properly

Insulation wrapping the hot water pipe, all the way to common fixtures is
desirable. Also wrap the cold water intake near the hot water heater.
It gets hot and looses heat when there is no inflow.

It especially desirable to better insulate the heater when its
not in the living area. Inside the living area, the loss is added to the room
temperature, and most of the year you need extra heat anyway.

greg

== 2 of 10 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 21 2008 10:16 am
From: msg

James Sweet wrote:

<snip>

> I've only ever seen a couple houses that had galvanized pipes, and in one
> case they were all being replaced. The sediment problem is something mostly
> specific to galvanized, so it's not on the radar for most people.

Huh? Look most anywhere in the 'rust belt' or in areas where the housing
stock is largely greater than 80 years old ;-) Too bad that 'tutorials'
aren't directed at those situations to which they are most needed.

Michael

== 3 of 10 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 21 2008 10:28 am
From: "James Sweet"

>
> Huh? Look most anywhere in the 'rust belt' or in areas where the housing
> stock is largely greater than 80 years old ;-) Too bad that 'tutorials'
> aren't directed at those situations to which they are most needed.
>

I'm not anywhere near the rust belt.

I know several people with old houses that originally had galvanized, but
they're all copper now.

== 4 of 10 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 21 2008 11:30 am
From: "Michael A. Terrell"

"hallerb@aol.com" wrote:
>
> with copper of plastic lines its a non issue, and few today have
> galvanized.
>
> my neighbor got severly burnt at work after a water outage. when it
> was turned back on the hot tea machine sprayed scalding water all over
> her hand. she has permanent nerve damage

All my plumbing is PVC, except the well casing. The people I bought
the place from waited till the old well was totally useless, and there
is 1/8" of rust on the walls of the PVC. Every time the system, is
deperssurized, I get VERY rusty water, unless I flush it, as described.

--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

== 5 of 10 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 21 2008 11:34 am
From: "Michael A. Terrell"

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" wrote:
>
> On Thu, 21 Feb 2008 01:41:13 -0500, Michael A. Terrell wrote:
> > I always open an outside faucet wide open for about five minutes any
> > time the water is turned off to blow as much crap out of the lines
> > before using anything inside the house.
>
> Hi Michael,
> This is a GREAT idea! (if it works).
>
> What I don't get is WHY there was all that sandy stuff after I replaced my
> wagter heater. If anything, there should be LESS sediment in the lines, not
> more (way more).
>
> Where did all that sandy sediment that clogged every single faucet in our
> tiny house come from?
>
> Is this common that sediment blocks everything in one quick pass after
> replacing a water heater?
>
> If so, why did NONE of the tutorials I read mention that simple hint you
> just gave us?

Who knows? They probably overlook it, thinking that everyone already
knows about it. People who are too close ot any subject tend to mitt
important details, because they think everyone knows THAT about the
job. I rewrote a lot of test procedures where I worked, because of the
engineering department doing the same thing. You had to train each tech
on each job, because so much stuff was left out, or just plain wrong.
Eventually, the system was changed to peer review the documents on the
test floor before changes were approved.

--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

== 6 of 10 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 21 2008 11:37 am
From: "Michael A. Terrell"

GregS wrote:
>
> It especially desirable to better insulate the heater when its
> not in the living area. Inside the living area, the loss is added to the room
> temperature, and most of the year you need extra heat anyway.

Not in sunny Florida, where you run the AC almost year round.

--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

== 7 of 10 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 21 2008 11:58 am
From: zekfrivo@zekfrivolous.com (GregS)

In article <47BDD2E0.56FE0E34@earthlink.net>, mike.terrell@earthlink.net wrote:
>GregS wrote:
>>
>> It especially desirable to better insulate the heater when its
>> not in the living area. Inside the living area, the loss is added to the room
>> temperature, and most of the year you need extra heat anyway.
>
>
> Not in sunny Florida, where you run the AC almost year round.

Are geothermal heat pumps becoming poplar there ?
I think I could have saved gas bills by using the underground pipes
and heat pump. My electricity is cheap.

greg

== 8 of 10 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 21 2008 1:38 pm
From: "Michael A. Terrell"

GregS wrote:
>
> In article <47BDD2E0.56FE0E34@earthlink.net>, mike.terrell@earthlink.net wrote:
> >GregS wrote:
> >>
> >> It especially desirable to better insulate the heater when its
> >> not in the living area. Inside the living area, the loss is added to the room
> >> temperature, and most of the year you need extra heat anyway.
> >
> >
> > Not in sunny Florida, where you run the AC almost year round.
>
> Are geothermal heat pumps becoming poplar there ?
> I think I could have saved gas bills by using the underground pipes
> and heat pump. My electricity is cheap.
>
> greg

Higher property taxes tend to wipe out any savings. I do know one
thing though: If this 'Global Warming' keeps up, I'll have to buy a
furnace. :(

--
My sig file can beat up your sig file!

== 9 of 10 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 21 2008 2:48 pm
From: "hallerb@aol.com"

even if you knew this would occur it would be impossible to completely
prevent or flush the junk.......

first not every valve can be opened, like the dishwasher

second the junk will be disturbed and contuue coming off to a lesser
degree for some time

and even if you open valves slowly it will still occur.

might be time to drain the new tank to get out what you can

== 10 of 10 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 21 2008 3:14 pm
From: 58plumbers@gmail.com

On Feb 21, 2:48 pm, "hall...@aol.com" <hall...@aol.com> wrote:
> even if you knew this would occur it would be impossible to completely
> prevent or flush the junk.......

Donna,
You forgot to add the hint about opening the outside water faucets!
Please add that to the tutorial!

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TOPIC: Predictions on oil costs for next decade
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/4d8ed6676617cb7f?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 21 2008 11:13 am
From: Just A User

Cheapo Groovo wrote:
> In article <sbydnQ2aiavHuSXanZ2dnUVZ_j6dnZ2d@giganews.com>, ken@up-
> yours-spammer.net says...
>> Cheapo Groovo wrote:
>>> In article <54-dnb-0PJD8vCranZ2dnUVZ_uPinZ2d@giganews.com>, ken@up-
>>> yours-spammer.net says...
>>>> Drop_the_chalupa_RodSpeed wrote:
>>>>> I bet oil drops a lot in price for the US consumer.
>>>> Not likely as the global demand for oil keeps increasing.
>>>>
>>> http://cheapogroovo.vox.com/library/post/oil-outlook.html
>>> This is the reality. Wake up folks!
>> Why is that reality? Just because you posted it on blog?
>>
> Nice rebuttal to the facts I mentioned. You really dug deep with that
> analysis. I bet you even watched the CNBC video to gain more insight.
>

Well if it were cheap and easy they would already be using is on a mass
scale. They are not. We are just about at the end of cheap oil. The ways
and places to get oil from this point forward are going to be more
expensive.

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 21 2008 2:17 pm
From: "RodSpeed,_the_EWA_fund_is_doing_great"

On Feb 21, 2:13 pm, Just A User <k...@up-yours-spammer.net> wrote:
> Well if it were cheap and easy they would already be using is on a mass
> scale. They are not. We are just about at the end of cheap oil. The ways
> and places to get oil from this point forward are going to be more
> expensive.

Oil = energy.

Plenty of other sources of energy. Thing is, if far way places start
building their energy policy on non-oil sources little by little, how
will that make the oil companies feel?

We have nuclear (not green, but an alternative...maybe ship nuke waste
to moon someday, LOL), solar, wind, hydrolelectric, human power,
methane, natural gas, RodSpeed gravitational field force, etc.

Eventually world will wake up to cheap oil not being sustainable and
folks will need something, anything but they will need energy.

Hence, drop that oil price again and make it non-efficient to even let
people think about going with investment-intensive alternative energy.

Let us face the facts that oil is not really a good friend in the long
run. Just a cheap source of energy that can go up and down in price if
the exporters know the competition.

I cringe burning away $3 or more per gallon just to enjoy a sunday
drive.

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 21 2008 2:34 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

RodSpeed,_the_EWA_fund_is_doing_great <kwokx2@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Just A User <k...@up-yours-spammer.net> wrote:

>> Well if it were cheap and easy they would already be using
>> is on a mass scale. They are not. We are just about at the
>> end of cheap oil. The ways and places to get oil from this
>> point forward are going to be more expensive.

> Oil = energy.

> Plenty of other sources of energy. Thing is, if far way
> places start building their energy policy on non-oil sources
> little by little, how will that make the oil companies feel?

Who cares ?

> We have nuclear (not green, but an alternative...

Its very green, no CO2 produced by the power generation process.

> maybe ship nuke waste to moon someday, LOL),

Or just design the nukes so they can be trivially encased
in concrete when they have passed their useby date etc
and build the new one next to it.

> solar, wind, hydrolelectric, human power, methane,
> natural gas, RodSpeed gravitational field force, etc.

You've left out politician's hot air and bullshit.

> Eventually world will wake up to cheap oil not being sustainable
> and folks will need something, anything but they will need energy.

> Hence, drop that oil price again and make it non-efficient to even let
> people think about going with investment-intensive alternative energy.

> Let us face the facts that oil is not really a good friend in the long run.

Fraid so, its a very decent transport fuel and
good source of carbon, tho coal is the last as well.

> Just a cheap source of energy that can go up and
> down in price if the exporters know the competition.

> I cringe burning away $3 or more per gallon just to enjoy a sunday drive.

I just yawn, chose a very fuel efficient car and carry on regardless.

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 21 2008 3:28 pm
From: "RodSpeed,_the_EWA_fund_is_doing_great"

On Feb 21, 5:34 pm, "Rod Speed" <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I just yawn, chose a very fuel efficient car and carry on regardless.

Yep, there is some economy in that. Once car gets too expensive to
run, just sell/give-it-away and use next mode of transport.

A consumer based economic existence has a few holes in it. Not that I
do not want to go back to days of our fore-fathers, but we
want,want,want. I think we have it all in this land here but need to
cattle prod the politicians and a few degenerates without public
notoriety.

Oil is gonna be the real thing until the dialogue shifts to fending
off boogie man enemies again and maybe economic meltdowns. Perhaps.

We are well fed here. What the heck happened to Midnight Oil?

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Red Light Cameras- Guilty even when innocent
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/33ec8ce41d959a6e?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 21 2008 1:07 pm
From: sarge137

On Feb 20, 11:49 am, Cheapo Groovo <c...@nospam.com> wrote:
> This guy proved his case, yet the state of Georgia doesn't care.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmVSbfvaqVw

There's gotta be more to story. The facts as presented seem pretty
compelling. But what I didn't see or hear:

Any comment or refusal to comment from the shop where the car was at
for repairs on the day of the violation.

Any comment or refusal to comment from an officer of the court with
jurisdiction over the ticket. The Police Chief isn't the person they
should have interviewed. He didn't issue the ticket, nor does he
adjudicate it.

Look at the tape again. They report that the guy's car was in the
shop "on the day of the violation" What they don't say is that it
was in the shop at the TIME of the violation. When and by whom was it
delivered to the shop? When and by whom was it picked up? Besides
the guy on the tape, who has keys and permission to use the car, and
where were they at the time of the violation?

I just can't believe that in any jurisdiction in this country that
this ticket wouldn't be dismissed if he could show reasonable proof
that the car was in the care, custody and exclusive control of the
repair shop at the time of this violation. And if he does have that
kind of proof, he'll have more lawyers than he can handle wanting to
defend the ticket, then sue the city of wrongful or malicious
prosecution.

Regards,
Sarge

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 21 2008 1:29 pm
From: "SpammersDie"

"sarge137" <rbooth9858@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:9f7bb9c8-645e-4ad4-aa27-8e1726e1dbee@p43g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
On Feb 20, 11:49 am, Cheapo Groovo <c...@nospam.com> wrote:
> This guy proved his case, yet the state of Georgia doesn't care.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmVSbfvaqVw

>There's gotta be more to story. The facts as presented seem pretty
>compelling. But what I didn't see or hear:
>
>Any comment or refusal to comment from the shop where the car was at
>for repairs on the day of the violation.
>
>Any comment or refusal to comment from an officer of the court with
>jurisdiction over the ticket. The Police Chief isn't the person they
>should have interviewed. He didn't issue the ticket, nor does he
>adjudicate it.
>
>Look at the tape again. They report that the guy's car was in the
>shop "on the day of the violation" What they don't say is that it
>was in the shop at the TIME of the violation. When and by whom was it
>delivered to the shop? When and by whom was it picked up? Besides
>the guy on the tape, who has keys and permission to use the car, and
>where were they at the time of the violation?
>
>I just can't believe that in any jurisdiction in this country that
>this ticket wouldn't be dismissed if he could show reasonable proof
>that the car was in the care, custody and exclusive control of the
>repair shop at the time of this violation. And if he does have that
>kind of proof, he'll have more lawyers than he can handle wanting to
>defend the ticket, then sue the city of wrongful or malicious
>prosecution.

Disclaimer: IANAL

Assuming it's like most camera ticket laws I've heard of, this is like a
parking ticket - no points, just a monetary fine. So unless the car was
stolen, the vehicle owner is liable for seeing that the fine gets paid.
Collecting reimbursement from the actual driver is the owner's job.

I have no problem with this reasoning at all in most cases - since most
cases involve the spouse and kids driving the car with the owner's consent.
If the owner has so little control over them that he can't get them to pay
him back for the fine, it is irresponsible for him to be letting them drive
the family car at all.

The repair shop scenario does suck, though. There's probably just no room in
the statute to make exceptions. Still, the guy should probably have paid the
fine and gone after the repair shop for reimbursement.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: ObamaNation
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/3420964382ee415d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 21 2008 1:51 pm
From: "RodSpeed,_the_EWA_fund_is_doing_great"

LOL!
Sounds too much like abomination.

Meanwhile:

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080221/china_losing_competitiveness.html

What happens when progress in Asia drives low cost labor out of China?
I think we are due some inflation some how. Maybe, just maybe, we can
start making things again in the USA like shoes, clothes, cars, books
and alternative energy systems.

All my readings have converged upon the idea that we have it all here
in the USA and are suffering from affluenza boredom. I am not talking
about it is all easy-street here. I think we have sold ourselves out
to conveniences.

RodSpeed, any great books you have read lately?

== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 21 2008 2:02 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

RodSpeed,_the_EWA_fund_is_doing_great <kwokx2@hotmail.com> wrote

You wait till the monolines implode |-)

> LOL!
> Sounds too much like abomination.

Yeah, definitely needs a name transplant.

Could be a problem for the 'brand' tho.

> Meanwhile:
> http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080221/china_losing_competitiveness.html

> What happens when progress in Asia drives low cost labor out of China?

Nothing special.

> I think we are due some inflation some how.

Sure, but thats likely to be the least of the worrys.

> Maybe, just maybe, we can start making things again in the USA like shoes, clothes,

Nope, not at the low cost end, endway.

> cars,

I doubt the industry will ever really get its act into gear, and china hasnt even started there yet.

> books

Certainly the writing, not the printing side tho if anyone has a clue.

> and alternative energy systems.

I cant see them being viable except for people who arent on the mains supply.

> All my readings have converged upon the idea that we have it
> all here in the USA and are suffering from affluenza boredom.
> I am not talking about it is all easy-street here. I think we have
> sold ourselves out to conveniences.

You've gotta spend what you earn on something.

> RodSpeed, any great books you have read lately?

Yeah, but not likely to interest you much, local pioneer autobiographys etc.

== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 21 2008 2:41 pm
From: "RodSpeed,_the_EWA_fund_is_doing_great"

On Feb 21, 5:02 pm, "Rod Speed" <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > RodSpeed, any great books you have read lately?
>
> Yeah, but not likely to interest you much, local pioneer autobiographys etc.

We had pioneers in the USA once. They traded whiskey, guns, furs and
gold. Now we have the info highway and Donald Trump.

== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 21 2008 2:44 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

RodSpeed,_the_EWA_fund_is_doing_great <kwokx2@hotmail.com> wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote
>> RodSpeed,_the_EWA_fund_is_doing_great <kwokx2@hotmail.com> wrote

>>> RodSpeed, any great books you have read lately?

>> Yeah, but not likely to interest you much, local pioneer autobiographys etc.

> We had pioneers in the USA once.

Yeah, and some of those were certainly worth reading too. Ours are more
recent, so we can still have the individuals involved writing about it now.

> They traded whiskey, guns, furs and gold.

And got up to some pretty unspeakable stuff like with the mormons.

> Now we have the info highway and Donald Trump.

We do indeed.

== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 21 2008 2:55 pm
From: "RodSpeed,_the_EWA_fund_is_doing_great"

On Feb 21, 5:44 pm, "Rod Speed" <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote:
> And got up to some pretty unspeakable stuff like with the mormons.
>

I once worked with a middle-aged lady who never heard of Ben and
Jerry's ice cream or Mormons. Nice lady, but I wonder now what else
she never heard of.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: when does the tripling of grain prices "hit the fan"?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/b7ba2eeecb9059a7?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 21 2008 2:52 pm
From: "RodSpeed,_the_EWA_fund_is_doing_great"

rick++ wrote:
> Wheat and corn prices have quadrupled in the past two years
> due to ethanol and international grain demand.
> I read a sad Denver news story about hobby horse owners
> having to put down their animals because monthly feed
> costs have trebled. They could board a horse at $500 a
> month but not $1500.
> I havent seen this passed through bakeries like the 1979-1980
> jump, but I guess its coming.

Stock up on sale items. This is a frugal group, right? Let the wealthy
subsidize our wheat.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Offer Too Good To Be True??
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/e9ac0406d7d5b48b?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 21 2008 2:56 pm
From: PaPaPeng

On Thu, 21 Feb 2008 14:52:54 GMT, "rox" <roxanne.gray@att.net> wrote:

>I'd pass on that offer and just buy a good atlas.

Thanks for confirming my thoughts. The last thing I need is more
clutter.

Recently I received the National Geographic's Atlas of Modern China.
It is a fantastic reference source. The satellite map gives me a very
clear view of the terrain that cannot be reproduced in any plotted
map. The other uncluttered maps lets my follow the main rivers and
their tributaries, the continental shelf, military defence perimeters,
etc. I can now follow many of the narratives that often give little
else other than the river the archaelogical excavations are near to or
the river armies had to cross in epic historical battles.

I know free maps are available online. But somehow it is never quite
the same as a printed page. On paper I can quickly scan and notice
peripheral things I would never have noticed on an online map. Its
like going to a bookstore or a library. Around the book or subject I
am interested in are a lot more interesting things I never knew
existed.

==============================================================================

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TOPIC: Wholesale / Sell Gucci FendiSpy Bag @ebaynt.com
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/145e36cb797a4ff9?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
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TOPIC: HD-TV converter box rip-off ....
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 21 2008 2:12 am
From: root

Jeff <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote:
>
> Kudos to Best Buy to be the first to sell such a device at a
> reasonable price.
>
> The last I looked, about a month ago, there were none.
>
> Jeff

Walmart sells a Magnavox converter for $50.

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== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 21 2008 4:15 am
From: "hallerb@aol.com"

On Feb 21, 2:20�am, "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"
<donna....@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Feb 2008 01:41:13 -0500, Michael A. Terrell wrote:
> > � �I always open an outside faucet wide open for about five minutes any
> > time the water is turned off to blow as much crap out of the lines
> > before using anything inside the house.
>
> Hi Michael,
> This is a GREAT idea! (if it works).
>
> What I don't get is WHY there was all that sandy stuff after I replaced my
> wagter heater. If anything, there should be LESS sediment in the lines, not
> more (way more).
>
> Where did all that sandy sediment that clogged every single faucet in our
> tiny house come from?
>
> Is this common that sediment blocks everything in one quick pass after
> replacing a water heater?
>
> If so, why did NONE of the tutorials I read mention that simple hint you
> just gave us?
>
> Donna

ahh when you turn off the water, drain the lines, and turn the water
back on. did you note the shuddering the first time you used water?
thats normal but you have galvanized lines full of crud which broke
loose and clogged stuff.

PEX and copper have smooth insides which dont collect crud.

sorry donna you need all your water lines replaced.

incidently water companies have the same trouble, and this is whu they
flush fire hydrants a couple times a year. confirms the hydrant works
and moves along dirt in lines.

thats why flushing sometimes causes brown or cruddy water

== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 21 2008 4:57 am
From: "hallerb@aol.com"

On Feb 21, 7:15 am, "hall...@aol.com" <hall...@aol.com> wrote:
> On Feb 21, 2:20�am, "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"
>
>
>
>
>
> <donna....@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > On Thu, 21 Feb 2008 01:41:13 -0500, Michael A. Terrell wrote:
> > > � �I always open an outside faucet wide open for about five minutes any
> > > time the water is turned off to blow as much crap out of the lines
> > > before using anything inside the house.
>
> > Hi Michael,
> > This is a GREAT idea! (if it works).
>
> > What I don't get is WHY there was all that sandy stuff after I replaced my
> > wagter heater. If anything, there should be LESS sediment in the lines, not
> > more (way more).
>
> > Where did all that sandy sediment that clogged every single faucet in our
> > tiny house come from?
>
> > Is this common that sediment blocks everything in one quick pass after
> > replacing a water heater?
>
> > If so, why did NONE of the tutorials I read mention that simple hint you
> > just gave us?
>
> > Donna
>
> ahh when you turn off the water, drain the lines, and turn the water
> back on. did you note the shuddering the first time you used water?
> thats normal but you have galvanized lines full of crud which broke
> loose and clogged stuff.
>
> PEX and copper have smooth insides which dont collect crud.
>
> sorry donna you need all your water lines replaced.
>
> incidently water companies have the same trouble, and this is whu they
> flush fire hydrants a couple times a year. confirms the hydrant works
> and moves along dirt in lines.
>
> thats why flushing sometimes causes brown or cruddy water- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

with copper of plastic lines its a non issue, and few today have
galvanized.

my neighbor got severly burnt at work after a water outage. when it
was turned back on the hot tea machine sprayed scalding water all over
her hand. she has permanent nerve damage

== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 21 2008 6:20 am
From: "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"

On Thu, 21 Feb 2008 04:15:10 -0800 (PST), hallerb@aol.com wrote:
> thats why flushing sometimes causes brown or cruddy wate

Hi Hallerb,

Ah. Yes. When the water was turned back on, there was a lot of sputtering
and shuddering going on, mostly sputtering. I thought it had to do with the
new burner.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2276890136/

But, this shaking & flushing of the pipes must have shaken loose sandy
grainy "crud" as every galvanized pipe I replaced was almost clogged
completely with what you called "scale".
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2273250265/

The water *was* brownish for a long while (you can see that in this photo
even after cleaning out the showerheads, so the crud was *still* coming
through the lines even ten minutes after initially turning the water back
on!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2279233720/

I guess all that brownish was sandy grainy stuff that caught in the filters
of *all* my faucets, showerheads, and dishwashers!

Nobody warned me about that so I'm *adding* it to the how to that I wrote
up!

== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 21 2008 7:01 am
From: "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"

Following is a idealized anatomy of a hot water heater replacement and
recommended maintenance performed, basically, on the Internet, in real
time, with the help of everyone here.

This procedure, which combines the best found on the Internet and which
takes into account *every* single of the hundreds of replies in this
newsgroup, is posted with the hope that the next amateur replacing their
natural gas galvanized pipe home hot water heater prints this out and
follows it to their delight and benefit!

A complete set of photos of every step below is available at
http://www.flickr.com/donnaohl

Here it is... this is an idealized version of my experience last week!

If you have old galvanized pipes, consider these preventive steps:
- Remove all debris screens from faucets, & tubs to prevent clogging
- Shut water to dishwaswher to prevent clogging of dishwasher screens
- Remove tub valves (I think) to prevent clogging of tubs

Remove the hot-water heater:
- Shut off the natural gas at the main gas meter (optional)
- Shut off the natural gas at the local hot-water heater (mandatory)
- Wait for the pilot light to go out to ensure no gas is left in the line
- Turn the thermostat on the hot-water heater to the off position
- Wait overnight, if possible, to allow the hot water in the tank to cool
- Or run 10 or 20 gallons of hot water in the house to dilute the tank
- You will be very glad you cooled the water in the tank: Trust me!
- Shut off the main household cold water (if replacing the gate valve)
- Shut the cold-water gate-valve right-side inlet to the hot-water heater
- Open at least one hot-water faucet in the house to drain off pressure
- Open the temperature and pressure valve as a safety measure (optional)
- Unscrew the cold-water inlet at the nipple at the top of the tank
- Unscrew the hot-water outlet at the nipple at the top of the tank
- Use two wrenches on flex connectors or they twist like a phone cord!
- Unscrew the natural gas inlet to the water-heater thermostat
- Cap the newly disconnected natural gas line to prevent contamination
- Connect a garden hose to the plastic hot-water-heater drain valve
- Open drain valve to drain hot water where it will not damage anything
- If 40/50 gallons doesn't come out something is clogged (very common)
- Shake and prod and push to get the water out (it happened to me)
- Otherwise you'll be moving a full tank which can tip (it happened to me)
- Disconnect garden hose and close drain valve when done (40 or 50 gallons)
- Unscrew the sheet-metal screw holding the vent pipe to the draft hood
- Separate the vent pipe from the draft hood (the hat on top middle)
- Unscrew sheet-metal screws holding gas-flue hat onto the vent pipe
- Separate the vent pipe from the gas-flue hat on top center of your heater
- Unscrew the seismic straps (if any) as the last thing before removal
- Remove old heater off the elevated base with two people and a handtruck
- Remove all water plumbing up to and including the old shut-off valve
- Remove all gas plumbing up to and including the old shut-off valve

Replace hot-water heater:
WHILE THE NEW TANK IS SITTING (DRY) ON THE GARAGE FLOOR:
- Remove the heater from the box by cutting the box completely open
- Replace the plastic drain valve with a brass ball valve (optional)
- Install the new temperature and pressure (T&P) relief valve (if needed)
- Note: The brass T&P relief valve may already be installed on your tank
- Install the cold water dialectric check-valve nipple (on the top right)
- Install the hot water dialectric ckeck-valve nipple (on the top left)
- Note: The 2 check-valve nipples may already be installed on your tank.
- Wrap three layers of teflon tape on each dialectric check-valve nipple
- Remember: Always use 2 wrenches when screwing & unscrewing pipe fittings!

MOUNT THE TANK & POSITION THE VENT AND HOOD:
- Mount and level the new hot water heater on the 18-inch elevated base
- Ensure at least six inches of clear space all around the new heater
- Hacksaw the old gas vent so that it fits the new larger water heater
- Ensure the gas vent aligns with the center of the hot-water heater
- Insert legs of the draft hood into the holes in the top of the heater
- Drill a 1/8 inch hole into the draft hood and 3-inch vent pipe
- Screw in at least 1 sheet-metal screw from the vent hood to the vent pipe

ATTACH THE COLD WATER INLET:
- Wrap Teflon tape on the threads of the fittings supplied with the tank
- Insert a blue heat-trap fitting (arrow down) into the cold-water inlet
- Ensure the last two threads are never covered with Teflon tape
- Look end-on through all fittings to ensure no Teflon tape overlap
- Do not use pipe dope on any threads where Teflon tape is noted below
- Screw the cold-water inlet male:male nipple into the top of the tank
- Wrap Teflon tape on the thread of the galvanized 3/4" water-inlet pipe
- Screw a dialectric union on the 3/4" galvanized cold-water inlet pipe
- Check for Teflon tape on the threads of each male:male brass nipple
- Screw the brass male:male nipple on the female:female dialectric union
- Screw a new ball-valve shutoff onto this vertical cold-water inlet pipe
- Wrap Teflon tape on the threads of another male:male brass nipple
- Screw this male:male nipple into the new ball-valve shutoff
- Screw the copper flex pipe onto the cold-water inlet brass nipples

ATTACH THE HOT WATER OUTLET:
- Wrap Teflon tape on the threads of the fittings supplied with the tank
- Ensure the last two threads are never covered with Teflon tape
- Do not use pipe dope on any threads where Teflon tape is noted below
- Insert a red heat-trap fitting (arrow up) into the tank hot-water outlet
- Wrap Teflon tape on the thread of the galvanized 3/4" water-outlet pipe
- Screw a dialectric union on the 3/4" galvanized hot-water outlet pipe
- Wrap Teflon tape on the threads of each male:male brass nipple
- Screw the brass male:male nipple on the female:female dialectric union
- Screw a new one-way check-valve onto this vertical hot-water outlet pipe
- Wrap Teflon tape on the threads of another male:male brass nipple
- Screw this male:male nipple into the new ball-valve shutoff
- Screw the copper flex pipe onto the hot-water inlet brass nipples
- Bend the copper flex pipe into an S shape to further inhibit heat loss

ATTACH THE T&P SAFETY PIPE:
- Screw on rigid high-temperature water pipe to the T&P valve
- The open outlet must be six inches (no more, no less) from the floor
- The open outlet must not be threaded; no valves or traps are allowed
- Place a bowl or bucket at the outlet of this open overflow pipe
- Test the T&P valve & plumbing by flipping the little aluminum lever
- Scalding hot water should sputter out of the pipe outlet

TURN ON THE WATER SUPPLY:
- Optionally, remove all the screens from your water faucets
- Optionally, shut off the water to your dishwasher to prevent clogging
- Optionally, remove the shower heads to prevent clogging
- I'm not sure what to remove yet to prevent your tub from clogging
- Open at least one hot-water faucet in the house to bleed out air
- Slowly open the main cold-water input to the house
- Open the new ball-valve cold-water input to the hot-water heater
- Check for leaks in the plumbing as the tank fills
- Place a pan or bowl at the T&P overflow tube & test the T&P valve

ATTACH THE NATURAL GAS INLET:
- Always connect the natural gas line as the very last step in this process
- Set the thermostat on the hot-water heater to the off position
- Coat male natural gas line threads with stick pipe dope (no teflon)
- Ensure the last two threads are not covered with any pipe dope
- Connect the new (yellow) natural gas flex pipe to the thermostat
- Turn on natural gas at the main switch (if it was turned off)
- Turn on natural gas at the local inlet to the water heater
- Test for leaks by toothbrushing a solution of dish detergent and water
- Read and carefully follow the manufacturer's lighting instructions

INSULATION:
- Wrap additional insulation around your hot-water heater, if desired
- Wrap insulation around your hot-water outlet pipe, if desired

DISPOSAL:
- Perform an autopsy on the old water heater by removing all plumbing
- Remove & inspect the 1 1/16 inch 3-foot 8-inch sacrificial anode
- Remove & inspect the T&P valve
- Call the local garbage or recycling to haul away the old water heater

Twice a year:
- Clint combusion-air lint screens (at the bottom inch of the water heater)
- Place a pan or bowl at the temperature & pressure valve overflow tube
- Test the T&P valve by flipping the lever as water violently sputters out
- Turn the natural gas to the PILOT setting (or shut it off completely)
- Leave the cold-water intake valve open at the top right of the heater
- Open at least one hot-water faucet on any level above the water heater
- Gently connect a garden hose to your hot water heater drain valve
- Route the open end of the garden hose where hot water won't damage things
- Open the lower drain valve to empty a few gallons of muddy hot water
- Shut the drain valve when that water runs clear (approx 10 gallons)
- Once every three years, remove the 1 1/16-inch sacrificial anode
- Replace the 3'8" sacrificial anode if corroded or calcium passivated
- To replace, bend the magnesium anode or replace with sausage links
- Turn the natural gas back on and ensure the burner is working properly

== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 21 2008 9:24 am
From: "James Sweet"

> Hi Hallerb,
>
> Ah. Yes. When the water was turned back on, there was a lot of sputtering
> and shuddering going on, mostly sputtering. I thought it had to do with
> the
> new burner.
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2276890136/
>
> But, this shaking & flushing of the pipes must have shaken loose sandy
> grainy "crud" as every galvanized pipe I replaced was almost clogged
> completely with what you called "scale".
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2273250265/
>
> The water *was* brownish for a long while (you can see that in this photo
> even after cleaning out the showerheads, so the crud was *still* coming
> through the lines even ten minutes after initially turning the water back
> on!
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2279233720/
>
> I guess all that brownish was sandy grainy stuff that caught in the
> filters
> of *all* my faucets, showerheads, and dishwashers!
>
> Nobody warned me about that so I'm *adding* it to the how to that I wrote
> up!

The sputtering is due to air in the lines, it gets trapped in all sorts of
places and sputters and spurts out when a tap is opened.

I've only ever seen a couple houses that had galvanized pipes, and in one
case they were all being replaced. The sediment problem is something mostly
specific to galvanized, so it's not on the radar for most people.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 21 2008 5:17 am
From: "Walter Cohen"

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There used to be an address/person finder website (Anywho, etc) that when
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== 2 of 2 ==
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From: "Walter Cohen"

Found it, whitepages.com (duh) has that feature.
"Walter Cohen" <w_cohen@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:47bd79e8$0$25043$607ed4bc@cv.net...
> Hi.
> There used to be an address/person finder website (Anywho, etc) that when
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> houses/addresses surrounding the found address.
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>
> Thanks.
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This sounds too good to be true. I like an up to date Atlas. The
other freebies are nice but not that attractive a bait. What worries
me is the obligation to buy those four books. They may be stuff I
don't care to read and likely be overpriced to make up for their sales
promotion.

Has anyone any idea what books they offer and their prices?

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 21 2008 6:52 am
From: "rox"

"PaPaPeng" <PaPaPeng@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:dn0rr39ir8otn565apadelofsf5n34k4nu@4ax.com...
>
>
> From my mailbox an offer to subscribe to a "The TIMES Comprehensive
> Atlas Of The World 12th Ed." for $19.95. The claimed regular price is
> $300 including other freebies in the package offer!!
>
> The promoter is The Folio Society, prepaid envelope address PO Box
> 91009 STN MAIN, Pickering Ontario, L1W 9Z9.
>
> The Atlas looks good and I'd willingly pay double ($40) for one. In
> the reply coupon the small print implies I will agree to buy four
> books from their Folio Catalogue (to be mailed). If I decline to join
> I return the Atlas within 21 days but I can still keep their
> leatherbound Compact Oxford Dictionary and Thesaurus and their Folio
> Parker Pen that comes with my reply to their flyer.
>
> This sounds too good to be true. I like an up to date Atlas. The
> other freebies are nice but not that attractive a bait. What worries
> me is the obligation to buy those four books. They may be stuff I
> don't care to read and likely be overpriced to make up for their sales
> promotion.
>
> Has anyone any idea what books they offer and their prices?

They have really lovely books, but none of them are cheap. They produce
special limited editions. You'd need to be a collector of pretty book
editions to get your money's worth. Not a collector of rare books--just
pretty books. These aren't particularly rare.

I'd pass on that offer and just buy a good atlas.

Let me preface this by saying I have a bias--I used to work for Oxford
University Press. Having said that I think that they do put out the best
atlases. The current one is 14th edition and it is about $80. You can find
older or less comprehensive editions for less than $20 (I'm looking at

www.powells.com right now and can see a batch of them). For everyday use
an Oxford's Essential will do you good, or if you don't really consult it
that much and don't need a lot the Concise if very nice as well.

In general there are "levels" of atlas (like there are levels of
dictionary). It's about the level of detail. So when you compare atlases
you should be careful to compare one publishers "Essential" to an
"Essential" atlas from another publisher and not compare a "Concise" atlas
to a "Comprehensive" atlas--it will give you the wrong impression of the
relative merits of each.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 21 2008 9:28 am
From: Anthony Matonak

PaPaPeng wrote:
>
> From my mailbox an offer to subscribe to a "The TIMES Comprehensive
> Atlas Of The World 12th Ed." for $19.95. The claimed regular price is
> $300 including other freebies in the package offer!!

I routinely see "regular" price claims on TV commercials of hundreds
of dollars for items that can't retail for more than a couple of bucks.
I would take any price claims with a heaping truck full of salt.

> This sounds too good to be true. I like an up to date Atlas.

Who needs coffee table books when you have a computer?
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=world+atlas&btnG=Google+Search

For $300 you can purchase a nice computer (or two) to put on your
coffee table. :)

I've never been fond of book/music clubs. They may offer one or two
items that you like at a reasonable price but you're then obligated
to purchase junk at inflated prices.

There are plenty of book search engines out there.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=book+search&btnG=Search

Anthony

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Milenko Kindl owns Rays' 'sailboat' stadium
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/398deeb34cc4abe2?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 21 2008 7:09 am
From: Milenko Kindl

Don't adjust your monitors, people. Pictured above is a rendering of
the Rays' proposed $450 million waterfront stadium in St. Petersburg.
The photos of this plan have been available for some time, but the
team just released this image yesterday, which features the park with
the roof in the "closed" position. As you can tell from the photo,
translucency is king. And after seeing those Lindsay Lohan photos in
New York magazine, I have to ask: Who doesn't love translucency?

The roof is supposed to resemble a sail and I suppose it does. But it
also kinda looks like a kids' pillow fort. Not to mention that the
long post in the outfield originally reminded me of Montreal's Olympic
Stadium.

Still, I really like this plan, which could be completed as early as
2012. It'll be unique to the Bay area and it's obvious that anything
has to be better than Tropicana Field. The sad truth is that until the
Rays and Marlins get new stadiums, I'll never attempt to hit every
ballpark in the bigs.

This design would make the Florida swing worth it, though.

Now if only they could figure out how to equip it with A/C.

Milenko Kindl
Banja Lula
Banjaluka

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Milenko Kindl hit satellite
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/23fbf008aa13736a?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 21 2008 7:10 am
From: Milenko Kindl

WASHINGTON - Debris from an obliterated U.S. spy satellite is being
tracked over the Pacific and Atlantic oceans but appears to be too
small to cause damage on Earth, a senior military officer said
Thursday, just hours after a Navy missile scored a direct hit on the
failing spacecraft.
ADVERTISEMENT

Marine Gen. James Cartwright, vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs of
Staff and an expert on military space technologies, told a Pentagon
news conference that officials have a "high degree of confidence" that
the missile launched from a Navy cruiser Wednesday night hit exactly
where intended.

It was an unprecedented mission for the Navy, so extraordinary that
the final go-ahead to launch the missile Wednesday was reserved for
Defense Secretary Robert Gates rather than a military commander.

Cartwright estimated there was an 80 percent to 90 percent chance that
the missile struck the most important target on the satellite -- its
fuel tank, containing 1,000 pounds of hydrazine, which Pentagon
officials say could have posed a health hazard to humans if it had
landed in a populated area.

Alluding to a video clip of the missile smashing into the satellite,
which he showed at the news conference, Cartwright said, "We have a
fireball, and given that there's no fuel (on the tip of the missile),
that would indicate that that's a hydrazine fire."

The video showed the three-stage SM-3 missile launching from the USS
Lake Erie at 10:26 p.m. EST, northwest of Hawaii, and of the missile's
small "kill vehicle" -- a non-explosive device at the tip -- maneuvering
into the path of the satellite and colliding spectacularly.

He said the satellite and the kill vehicle collided at a combined
speed of 22,000 mph about 130 miles above Earth's surface, and that
the collision was confirmed at a space operations center at 10:50 p.m.
EST.

Asked about the satisfaction felt among those in the military who had
organized the shootdown on short notice by modifying missile software
and other components, Cartwright smiled widely.

"Yes, this was uncharted territory. The technical degree of difficulty
was significant here," Cartwright said. "You can imagine that at the
point of intercept there were a few cheers that went up."

He cautioned, however, that more technical analysis was required to
determine for certain what debris was created and where it might go.
The satellite was described as the size of a school bus and weighed
about 5,000 pounds.

Unlike most spacecraft that fall out of orbit and re-enter the
atmosphere, this satellite had an almost full fuel tank because it
lost power and became uncontrollable shortly after it reached its
initial orbit in December 2006. Cartwright said the hydrazine alone
was justification for undertaking the unprecedented effort to use a
Navy missile interceptor to attempt to destroy the satellite in orbit.

Cartwright said experts were still watching the debris fields and he
could not yet rule out that hazardous material would fall to Earth.
But he said that as of Thursday morning, debris had only been seen in
the atmosphere -- and none had been detected surviving re-entry. He
indicated that debris appeared unlikely to pose a problem.

"Thus far we've seen nothing larger than a football," he said,
referring to debris in the atmosphere spotted by radars and other
sensors.

The military concluded that the missile had successfully shattered the
satellite because trackers detected a fireball. Cartwright said it was
unlikely that the fireball could have been caused by anything other
than the hydrazine in the tank.

And Cartwright cited two other sources of information that indicate
the fuel tank was hit: the appearance of a vapor cloud and the results
of spectral analysis, or the study of light emissions, from devices
aboard two aircraft that operate from the Pacific test range
associated with the Pentagon's missile defense testing.

Debris from the satellite has started re-entry and will continue
through Thursday and into Friday, Cartwright said.

Milenko Kindl
Banja Luka
Banjaluka

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Milenko Kindl claims fall by 9,000
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/29ca69c2ceebacb6?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 21 2008 7:11 am
From: Milenko Kindl

WASHINGTON - The number of newly laid off workers filing claims for
unemployment benefits fell last week, but the larger-than-expected
drop was seen as only a temporary improvement.
ADVERTISEMENT

The Labor Department reported Thursday that the number of jobless
claims dropped by 9,000 last week to a total of 349,000.

While that was bigger than the decline that had been expected,
analysts noted that claims offices in California, the largest state,
were closed for one day last week for a state holiday, giving laid off
workers one less day to file claims..

The four-week average for claims, which gives a better picture of
labor market trends, rose to 360,500, which was the highest level
since claims spiked in October 2005 in the aftermath of Hurricane
Katrina.

Analysts said the rise in the four-week average was depicting a labor
market that is coming under increasing strains because of the slowing
economy.

The Federal Reserve released a revised economic forecast on Wednesday
that slashed growth prospects for this year but still maintained that
the country could avoid a recession.

However, many private economist believe the country has already
entered a downturn that began this quarter and will last through the
spring. They are forecasting that the overall economy, which skidded
to growth at a barely discernible annual rate of 0.6 percent in the
final three months of last year, will turn negative in the first and
second quarter this year. The classic definition of a recession is two
consecutive quarters of negative economic growth.

President Bush last week signed a $168 billion economic stimulus bill
which is designed to provide rebate checks of $600 for individual and
$1,200 for couples with the checks scheduled to begin arriving in
mailboxes this spring as a way to give the economy a boost.

But even with the rebate checks, which Bush called a "booster shot"
for the economy, analysts are forecasting a period of slower growth,
reflecting the blows that have been dealt by a prolonged downturn in
housing and a severe credit squeeze, which has made it harder for
consumers and businesses to get loans.

The economy shed 17,000 jobs in January, the first monthly job loss in
more than four years. Analysts believe that the unemployment rate,
which currently stands at 4.9 percent, will rise to 6 percent before
the current slowdown has run its course.

The performance of jobless claims for the week ending Feb. 9 was
revised to show 10,000 more benefit applications during that week than
previously reported, reflecting a sharp revision from data supplied by
California.

For that week, 37 states and territories had increases in claims while
16 had declines.

California had the largest increase, a jump of 7,857 that was
attributed to higher layoffs in trade, service and manufacturing
industries. The biggest decline in claims occurred in Ohio, which saw
a drop of 2,752.

Milenko Kindl
Banja Luka
Banjaluka

==============================================================================
TOPIC: SCAM WARNING
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/a7dbd44d4cf509e9?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Feb 21 2008 8:23 am
From: successn08

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Thursday, February 21, 2008

25 new messages in 8 topics - digest

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