Frugal Living: Jan 6, 2008

Sunday, January 6, 2008

25 new messages in 8 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: The Real Cost of US Support for Israel: $3 MILLION-MILLION
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/6ddf22a68bcc41b5?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Sun, Jan 6 2008 11:13 am
From: "P. Maffia"

Ah! Ignorance is such a comfort to the uninformed.!

"MasterChief" <1@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:Q_2dnfCLRP7iwB3anZ2dnUVZ_vyinZ2d@comcast.com...
> The foreign leeches can all go to hell for all I care.Let them care of
> their own problems ,if they blow each other up ,the better for the rest of
> us.
>
>
> "P. Maffia" <pmaffia@centurytel.net> wrote in message
> news:c5GdnYMVmreezB3anZ2dnUVZ_qqgnZ2d@centurytel.net...
>> Isolationism is a good way for any Country to end up in the dust bin of
>> history quickly.
>> "MasterChief" <1@nowhere.com> wrote in message
>> news:vcOdnZNRVLy_iB3anZ2dnUVZ_h-vnZ2d@comcast.com...
>>> No more our taxes should go to any nation,but our own.
>>>
>>> "P. Maffia" <pmaffia@centurytel.net> wrote in message
>>> news:T_6dnbPHp7xffOLanZ2dnUVZ_q2hnZ2d@centurytel.net...
>>>> Of course, neither you nor Mr. Boyle took note of the fact that Egypt
>>>> receives almost as much each year from the US as does Israel.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Hobo" <dfgsdgt546456rtg@googlemail.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:aafd50ed-94aa-489c-abf4-f7ed1c19ea00@1g2000hsl.googlegroups.com...
>>>>> By Christopher Bollyn
>>>>>
>>>>> While it is commonly reported that Israel officially receives some $3
>>>>> billion every year in the form of economic aid from the U.S.
>>>>> government, this figure is just the tip of the iceberg. There are many
>>>>> billions of dollars more in hidden costs and economic losses lurking
>>>>> beneath the surface. A recently published economic analysis has
>>>>> concluded that U.S. support for the state of Israel has cost American
>>>>> taxpayers nearly $3 trillion ($3 million millions) in 2002 dollars.
>>>>>
>>>>> "The Costs to American Taxpayers of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict:
>>>>> $3 Trillion" is a summary of economic research done by Thomas R.
>>>>> Stauffer. Stauffer's summary of the research was published in the June
>>>>> 2003 issue of The Washington Report on Middle East Affairs.
>>>>>
>>>>> Stauffer is a Washington, D.C.-based engineer and economist who writes
>>>>> and teaches about the economics of energy and the Middle East.
>>>>> Stauffer has taught at Harvard University and Georgetown University's
>>>>> School of Foreign Service. Stauffer's findings were first presented at
>>>>> an October 2002 conference sponsored by the U.S. Army College and the
>>>>> University of Maine.
>>>>>
>>>>> Stauffer's analysis is "an estimate of the total cost to the U.S.
>>>>> alone of instability and conflict in the region - which emanates from
>>>>> the core Israeli-Palestinian conflict."
>>>>>
>>>>> "Total identifiable costs come to almost $3 trillion," Stauffer says.
>>>>> "About 60 percent, well over half, of those costs - about $1.7
>>>>> trillion - arose from the U.S. defense of Israel, where most of that
>>>>> amount has been incurred since 1973."
>>>>>
>>>>> "Support for Israel comes to $1.8 trillion, including special trade
>>>>> advantages, preferential contracts, or aid buried in other accounts.
>>>>> In addition to the financial outlay, U.S. aid to Israel costs some
>>>>> 275,000 American jobs each year." The trade-aid imbalance alone with
>>>>> Israel of between $6-10 billion costs about 125,000 American jobs
>>>>> every year, Stauffer says.
>>>>>
>>>>> The largest single element in the costs has been the series of oil-
>>>>> supply crises that have accompanied the Israeli-Arab wars and the
>>>>> construction of the Strategic Petroleum Reserve. "To date these have
>>>>> cost the U.S. $1.5 trillion (2002 dollars), excluding the additional
>>>>> costs incurred since 2001," Stauffer wrote.
>>>>>
>>>>> The cost of supporting Israel increased drastically after the 1973
>>>>> Israeli-Arab war. U.S. support for Israel during that war resulted in
>>>>> additional costs for the American taxpayer of between $750 billion and
>>>>> $1 trillion, Stauffer says.
>>>>>
>>>>> When Israel was losing the war, President Richard Nixon stepped in to
>>>>> supply the Jewish state with U.S. weapons. Nixon's intervention
>>>>> triggered the Arab oil embargo which Stauffer estimates cost the U.S.
>>>>> as much as $600 billion in lost GDP and another $450 in higher oil
>>>>> import costs.
>>>>>
>>>>> "The 1973 oil crisis, all in all, cost the U.S. economy no less than
>>>>> $900 billion, and probably as much as $1,200 billion," he says.
>>>>>
>>>>> As a result of the oil embargo the United States created the Strategic
>>>>> Petroleum Reserve (SPR) to "insulate Israel and the U.S. against the
>>>>> wielding of a future Arab 'oil weapon.'" The billion-barrel SPR has
>>>>> cost U.S. taxpayers $134 billion to date. According to an Oil Supply
>>>>> Guarantee, which former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger provided
>>>>> Israel in 1975, Israel gets "first call" on any oil available to the
>>>>> U.S. if Israel's oil supply is stopped.
>>>>>
>>>>> Stauffer's $3 trillion figure is conservative as it does not include
>>>>> the increased costs incurred during the year-long buildup to the
>>>>> recent war against Iraq in which Israel played a significant, albeit
>>>>> covert, role. The higher oil prices that occurred as a result of the
>>>>> Anglo-American campaign against Iraq were absorbed by the consumers.
>>>>> The increase in oil prices provided a huge bonus for the leading oil
>>>>> companies such as British Petroleum and Shell, who are major oil
>>>>> producers as well as retailers. The major international oil companies
>>>>> recorded record profits for the first quarter of 2003.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Washington Report seeks to "provide the American public with
>>>>> balanced and accurate information concerning U.S. relations with
>>>>> Middle Eastern states." The monthly journal is known for keeping close
>>>>> tabs on the amount of U.S. taxpayer money that goes to Israel and how
>>>>> much pro-Israel money flows back to Members of Congress in the form of
>>>>> campaign aid.
>>>>>
>>>>> The journal's website, www.wrmea.com, has an up-to-date counter at the
>>>>> top that indicates how much official aid flows to Israel. While the
>>>>> counter currently stands at $88.2 billion, it only reflects the
>>>>> minimum, as it does not include the many hidden costs.
>>>>>
>>>>> "The distinction is important, because the indirect or consequential
>>>>> losses suffered by the U.S. as a result of its blind support for
>>>>> Israel exceed by many times the substantial amount of direct aid to
>>>>> Israel," Shirl McArthur wrote in the May 2003 issue of Washington
>>>>> Report.
>>>>>
>>>>> McArthur's article, "A Conservative Tally of Total Direct U.S. Aid to
>>>>> Israel: $97.5 Billion - and Counting" tallies the hidden costs, such
>>>>> as interest lost due to the early disbursement of aid to Israel and
>>>>> funds hidden in other accounts. For example, Israel received $5.45
>>>>> billion in Defense Department funding of Israeli weapons projects
>>>>> through 2002, McArthur says.
>>>>>
>>>>> Loans made to Israel by the U.S. government, like the recently awarded
>>>>> $9 billion, invariably wind up being paid by the American taxpayer. A
>>>>> recent Congressional Research Service report indicates that Israel has
>>>>> received $42 billion in waived loans. "Therefore, it is reasonable to
>>>>> consider all government loans to Israel the same as grants," McArthur
>>>>> says.
>>>>>
>>>>> Support for Israel has cost America dearly - well over than $10,000
>>>>> per American - however the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has been
>>>>> extremely costly for the entire world. According to Stauffer, the
>>>>> total bill for supporting Israel is two to four times higher than that
>>>>> for the U.S. alone - costing the global community an estimated $6 to
>>>>> $12 trillion.
>>>>>
>>>>> Finis
>>>>> Courtesy Rumor Mill News Agents Forum
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=831
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>

== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Sun, Jan 6 2008 12:23 pm
From: "MasterChief" <1@nowhere.com>

Hypocrisy is a better alternative according to you wicked vision.

"P. Maffia" <pmaffia@centurytel.net> wrote in message
news:_M2dnUKpoJHBtRzanZ2dnUVZ_t2inZ2d@centurytel.net...
> Ah! Ignorance is such a comfort to the uninformed.!
>
> "MasterChief" <1@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> news:Q_2dnfCLRP7iwB3anZ2dnUVZ_vyinZ2d@comcast.com...
>> The foreign leeches can all go to hell for all I care.Let them care of
>> their own problems ,if they blow each other up ,the better for the rest
>> of us.
>>
>>
>> "P. Maffia" <pmaffia@centurytel.net> wrote in message
>> news:c5GdnYMVmreezB3anZ2dnUVZ_qqgnZ2d@centurytel.net...
>>> Isolationism is a good way for any Country to end up in the dust bin of
>>> history quickly.
>>> "MasterChief" <1@nowhere.com> wrote in message
>>> news:vcOdnZNRVLy_iB3anZ2dnUVZ_h-vnZ2d@comcast.com...
>>>> No more our taxes should go to any nation,but our own.
>>>>
>>>> "P. Maffia" <pmaffia@centurytel.net> wrote in message
>>>> news:T_6dnbPHp7xffOLanZ2dnUVZ_q2hnZ2d@centurytel.net...
>>>>> Of course, neither you nor Mr. Boyle took note of the fact that Egypt
>>>>> receives almost as much each year from the US as does Israel.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Hobo" <dfgsdgt546456rtg@googlemail.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:aafd50ed-94aa-489c-abf4-f7ed1c19ea00@1g2000hsl.googlegroups.com...
>>>>>> By Christopher Bollyn
>>>>>>
>>>>>> While it is commonly reported that Israel officially receives some $3
>>>>>> billion every year in the form of economic aid from the U.S.
>>>>>> government, this figure is just the tip of the iceberg. There are
>>>>>> many
>>>>>> billions of dollars more in hidden costs and economic losses lurking
>>>>>> beneath the surface. A recently published economic analysis has
>>>>>> concluded that U.S. support for the state of Israel has cost American
>>>>>> taxpayers nearly $3 trillion ($3 million millions) in 2002 dollars.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "The Costs to American Taxpayers of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict:
>>>>>> $3 Trillion" is a summary of economic research done by Thomas R.
>>>>>> Stauffer. Stauffer's summary of the research was published in the
>>>>>> June
>>>>>> 2003 issue of The Washington Report on Middle East Affairs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Stauffer is a Washington, D.C.-based engineer and economist who
>>>>>> writes
>>>>>> and teaches about the economics of energy and the Middle East.
>>>>>> Stauffer has taught at Harvard University and Georgetown University's
>>>>>> School of Foreign Service. Stauffer's findings were first presented
>>>>>> at
>>>>>> an October 2002 conference sponsored by the U.S. Army College and the
>>>>>> University of Maine.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Stauffer's analysis is "an estimate of the total cost to the U.S.
>>>>>> alone of instability and conflict in the region - which emanates from
>>>>>> the core Israeli-Palestinian conflict."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Total identifiable costs come to almost $3 trillion," Stauffer says.
>>>>>> "About 60 percent, well over half, of those costs - about $1.7
>>>>>> trillion - arose from the U.S. defense of Israel, where most of that
>>>>>> amount has been incurred since 1973."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Support for Israel comes to $1.8 trillion, including special trade
>>>>>> advantages, preferential contracts, or aid buried in other accounts.
>>>>>> In addition to the financial outlay, U.S. aid to Israel costs some
>>>>>> 275,000 American jobs each year." The trade-aid imbalance alone with
>>>>>> Israel of between $6-10 billion costs about 125,000 American jobs
>>>>>> every year, Stauffer says.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The largest single element in the costs has been the series of oil-
>>>>>> supply crises that have accompanied the Israeli-Arab wars and the
>>>>>> construction of the Strategic Petroleum Reserve. "To date these have
>>>>>> cost the U.S. $1.5 trillion (2002 dollars), excluding the additional
>>>>>> costs incurred since 2001," Stauffer wrote.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The cost of supporting Israel increased drastically after the 1973
>>>>>> Israeli-Arab war. U.S. support for Israel during that war resulted in
>>>>>> additional costs for the American taxpayer of between $750 billion
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> $1 trillion, Stauffer says.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When Israel was losing the war, President Richard Nixon stepped in to
>>>>>> supply the Jewish state with U.S. weapons. Nixon's intervention
>>>>>> triggered the Arab oil embargo which Stauffer estimates cost the U.S.
>>>>>> as much as $600 billion in lost GDP and another $450 in higher oil
>>>>>> import costs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "The 1973 oil crisis, all in all, cost the U.S. economy no less than
>>>>>> $900 billion, and probably as much as $1,200 billion," he says.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As a result of the oil embargo the United States created the
>>>>>> Strategic
>>>>>> Petroleum Reserve (SPR) to "insulate Israel and the U.S. against the
>>>>>> wielding of a future Arab 'oil weapon.'" The billion-barrel SPR has
>>>>>> cost U.S. taxpayers $134 billion to date. According to an Oil Supply
>>>>>> Guarantee, which former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger provided
>>>>>> Israel in 1975, Israel gets "first call" on any oil available to the
>>>>>> U.S. if Israel's oil supply is stopped.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Stauffer's $3 trillion figure is conservative as it does not include
>>>>>> the increased costs incurred during the year-long buildup to the
>>>>>> recent war against Iraq in which Israel played a significant, albeit
>>>>>> covert, role. The higher oil prices that occurred as a result of the
>>>>>> Anglo-American campaign against Iraq were absorbed by the consumers.
>>>>>> The increase in oil prices provided a huge bonus for the leading oil
>>>>>> companies such as British Petroleum and Shell, who are major oil
>>>>>> producers as well as retailers. The major international oil companies
>>>>>> recorded record profits for the first quarter of 2003.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Washington Report seeks to "provide the American public with
>>>>>> balanced and accurate information concerning U.S. relations with
>>>>>> Middle Eastern states." The monthly journal is known for keeping
>>>>>> close
>>>>>> tabs on the amount of U.S. taxpayer money that goes to Israel and how
>>>>>> much pro-Israel money flows back to Members of Congress in the form
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> campaign aid.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The journal's website, www.wrmea.com, has an up-to-date counter at
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> top that indicates how much official aid flows to Israel. While the
>>>>>> counter currently stands at $88.2 billion, it only reflects the
>>>>>> minimum, as it does not include the many hidden costs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "The distinction is important, because the indirect or consequential
>>>>>> losses suffered by the U.S. as a result of its blind support for
>>>>>> Israel exceed by many times the substantial amount of direct aid to
>>>>>> Israel," Shirl McArthur wrote in the May 2003 issue of Washington
>>>>>> Report.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> McArthur's article, "A Conservative Tally of Total Direct U.S. Aid to
>>>>>> Israel: $97.5 Billion - and Counting" tallies the hidden costs, such
>>>>>> as interest lost due to the early disbursement of aid to Israel and
>>>>>> funds hidden in other accounts. For example, Israel received $5.45
>>>>>> billion in Defense Department funding of Israeli weapons projects
>>>>>> through 2002, McArthur says.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Loans made to Israel by the U.S. government, like the recently
>>>>>> awarded
>>>>>> $9 billion, invariably wind up being paid by the American taxpayer. A
>>>>>> recent Congressional Research Service report indicates that Israel
>>>>>> has
>>>>>> received $42 billion in waived loans. "Therefore, it is reasonable to
>>>>>> consider all government loans to Israel the same as grants," McArthur
>>>>>> says.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Support for Israel has cost America dearly - well over than $10,000
>>>>>> per American - however the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has been
>>>>>> extremely costly for the entire world. According to Stauffer, the
>>>>>> total bill for supporting Israel is two to four times higher than
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> for the U.S. alone - costing the global community an estimated $6 to
>>>>>> $12 trillion.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Finis
>>>>>> Courtesy Rumor Mill News Agents Forum
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=831
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>

== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Sun, Jan 6 2008 2:51 pm
From: "P. Maffia"

"MasterChief" <1@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:WoadnfK39JZoqhzanZ2dnUVZ_uKpnZ2d@comcast.com...
> Hypocrisy is a better alternative according to you wicked vision.

Hypocrisy? The word does not even come into play, which speaks volumes for
your mastery of the language.

But anyone who thinks that the US should be insular and not participate in
the world is living in the 19th Century.

Now one can legitimately raise questions about any of the allies we may
associate with and argue that others would be preferable. But in the modern
world one cannot adopt your attitude of let them all fend for themselves.
Madness lies in that direction.

== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Sun, Jan 6 2008 2:59 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

P. Maffia <pmaffia@centurytel.net> wrote
> MasterChief <1@nowhere.com> wrote

> But anyone who thinks that the US should be insular and not participate in the world is living in the 19th Century.

It didnt even happen like that in the 19th Century.

> Now one can legitimately raise questions about any of the allies we may associate with and argue that others would be
> preferable. But in the modern world one cannot adopt your attitude of let them all fend for themselves. Madness lies
> in that direction.

Not madness so much as complete impracticalility.

== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Sun, Jan 6 2008 4:01 pm
From: "P. Maffia"

"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:5ud4quF1h2t78U1@mid.individual.net...
> P. Maffia <pmaffia@centurytel.net> wrote
>> MasterChief <1@nowhere.com> wrote
>
>> But anyone who thinks that the US should be insular and not participate
>> in the world is living in the 19th Century.
>
> It didnt even happen like that in the 19th Century.

True, but with the technology that existed then, any nation with the
resources we had then and protected by two Oceans, could have gotten along
being very insular without much fear that an external enemy could do much to
them.

Just not possible in the modern world where any two-bit wannabe Master of
the World, for a price, can get their hands on ICBMs and nuclear materials
and do a lot of damage.

>
>> Now one can legitimately raise questions about any of the allies we may
>> associate with and argue that others would be preferable. But in the
>> modern world one cannot adopt your attitude of let them all fend for
>> themselves. Madness lies in that direction.
>
> Not madness so much as complete impracticalility.

I won't argue with that. But, in my opinion, anyone who lives in a world of
impracticality is mad.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Great Cable and Satellite Deals with CASH BACK
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/6486937f0c299c40?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Jan 6 2008 11:16 am
From: poddarbiz@gmail.com

Order Comcast, Time Warner, Charter, Dish or DirectTV With CASH BACK -
Great Deals with many great benefits. Some offer free HD upgrades.

Here's a great link with awesome cash back deals. I tried the Comcast
deal and it worked!

http://www.desicrazy.com/2008/01/04/great-cable-and-satellite-deals-with-cash-back/

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Jan 6 2008 11:22 am
From: George Grapman

poddarbiz@gmail.com wrote:
> Order Comcast, Time Warner, Charter, Dish or DirectTV With CASH BACK -
> Great Deals with many great benefits. Some offer free HD upgrades.
>
> Here's a great link with awesome cash back deals. I tried the Comcast
> deal and it worked!
>
> http://www.desicrazy.com/2008/01/04/great-cable-and-satellite-deals-with-cash-back/

I am usually wary about sites that do not have contact information
but the I saw you are posting from gmail so it must be legitimate

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Looking Forward
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/78cb5b0089fdc03b?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Jan 6 2008 11:40 am
From: hchickpea@hotmail.com

On Sun, 06 Jan 2008 10:43:50 -0800, Dawn <linny4@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Hello to the group,
>I wish to thank all the members here for all the ideas and help you
>have given me since 1996. You have definitely added greatly to my
>life. You have saved me lots of money and given me lots of laughs.
>
>This year I want to continue on my frugal journey.
>I plan to finish funding my emergency fund, and
>am already looking at seed catalogs for my garden this year.
>I don't have any big vacation plans this year although we are going to
>Vegas in a couple of weeks. Doing that on FF miles and hotel points.
>Only expense will be food and entertainment.
>Trying to keep the fire burning so I don't give my money to the
>electric company.
>Anyone else like to share their plans for this year?
>Dawn, who still likes her frugal mindset.

I plan to invest $6... no, wait... I plan to send money to this
nice fellow in Nigeria... nah.

I plan to cut more wood for the fireplace, and do a LOT of work around
the place. I'll also cancel my old web service, since I finally
decided to take the plunge and go with Hughesnet high-speed. I may
also drop the phone land line to a minimum service if I find VOIP
reliable enough.

We'll probably sell some stuff we don't need at a flea market this
year. We did enough in 2007 to set ourselves up for low onging costs
to allow us to coast a little while, although we are just starting to
curb our travel down to once or twice a week.

I'm also toying with the idea of making some basic furniture pieces
from our own trees. Why pay for chipboard when I have the trees, a
chainsaw, bandsaw, and other tools? Give a man a fish and he'll
babble on about the universe, ask a man to cut down the tallest tree
in the forest with a herring and he'll start getting creative.

Harry, in the hinterlands, where cellphones fear to tread.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Jan 6 2008 11:46 am
From: gheston@hiwaay.net (Gary Heston)

In article <vt72o3566eq2032ed8dd2tsnupbhh14jjb@4ax.com>,
Dawn <linny4@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Hello to the group,
>I wish to thank all the members here for all the ideas and help you
>have given me since 1996. You have definitely added greatly to my
>life. You have saved me lots of money and given me lots of laughs.

>This year I want to continue on my frugal journey.
>I plan to finish funding my emergency fund, and
>am already looking at seed catalogs for my garden this year.
>I don't have any big vacation plans this year although we are going to
>Vegas in a couple of weeks. Doing that on FF miles and hotel points.
>Only expense will be food and entertainment.

Casinos frequently have free buffets, which can save some of your food
money.

>Trying to keep the fire burning so I don't give my money to the
>electric company.
>Anyone else like to share their plans for this year?

I'm planning to stay employed. As my place of employment was sold a few
weeks ago (for the second time in less than 18 months), this may prove
to be a challenge.

>Dawn, who still likes her frugal mindset.

Gary

--
Gary Heston gheston@hiwaay.net

http://www.thebreastcancersite.com/

Yoko Onos' former driver tried to extort $2M from her, threating to
"release embarassing recordings...". What, he has a copy of her album?

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Chinese Exports Safe
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/656ddf21b6fa6b07?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Sun, Jan 6 2008 12:37 pm
From: PaPaPeng

On Sun, 6 Jan 2008 01:07:36 -0800 (PST), "friesian@zoocrewphoto.com"
<friesian@zoocrewphoto.com> wrote:

>My cat is still dead.
>
>Why would I want to reward them by buying more of their products?
>

Dunno. Its your money to spend as you wish. Its darn strange how the
imports of China origin good keep rising. Its impossible to avoid
them anywhere be it food or any everyday item one has to use at home
or at work. Solve that mystery and maybe America will be able to get
a handle on her enormous personal and public debt.

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Sun, Jan 6 2008 1:42 pm
From: Bernardo Gui

On Sun, 06 Jan 2008 20:37:09 GMT, PaPaPeng <PaPaPeng@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Dunno. Its your money to spend as you wish. Its darn strange how the
>imports of China origin good keep rising. Its impossible to avoid
>them anywhere be it food or any everyday item one has to use at home
>or at work. Solve that mystery and maybe America will be able to get
>a handle on her enormous personal and public debt.

Oh, I think we're already seeing a backlash against your cat-killing
and lead-painted products. Most certainly, chinese products will
always be a significant part of what is available in the US, but there
are companies who are already gearing-up with 'Made In The USA'
labels. The toy market will only be the beginning. Smart consumers are
beginning to realize that low prices are not the most important issue.

Your country's slipshod manufacturing standards and willingness to use
carcinogens (and worse) in products intended for human consumption
will not go unnoticed by everyone.

Bernardo

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Sun, Jan 6 2008 7:11 pm
From: PaPaPeng

On Sun, 06 Jan 2008 16:42:23 -0500, Bernardo Gui
<waile2155@mypacks.net> wrote:

>
>Your country's slipshod manufacturing standards and willingness to use
>carcinogens (and worse) in products intended for human consumption
>will not go unnoticed by everyone.
>
>Bernardo

Must be a strictly for US export grade stuff you are getting. There
seems to be more and more Chinese all the time and they all use
practically 100 percent China origin stuff. Probably the same stuff
that give you cancers are fertility enhancers for orientals. Its a
matter of being born with the right genes thing. But fear not. The
authorities are working with your guys to remove them from the
products. By the way tech your children to play with their toys.
They are not meant to be sucked on.

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Sun, Jan 6 2008 8:11 pm
From: The Real Bev

PaPaPeng wrote:

> By the way tech your children to play with their toys.
> They are not meant to be sucked on.

That's what little kids do with their toys. Until recently it was safe
in civilized countries, who don't generally make a practice of killing
girl babies just because they're not boys.

--
Cheers, Bev
===================================================================
"You know that I could go on the Internet right now under my
alternate screen name, "CherryXXX69," and get complete strangers to
email me a picture of their scrotum. I tell you, this country gave
the finger to privacy a long time ago." -- Bill Maher

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Donation Question
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/ede7dc79ef5b9e1e?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 9 ==
Date: Sun, Jan 6 2008 2:22 pm
From: haranjoe@lycos.com

I asked this same question to my favorite charity and was told that
even if you send a check or money order, there are fees associated
with processing those. So do what you like, the charity is just happy
to get your money.
i used a rewards CC and got a nice bonus for myself as well.

== 2 of 9 ==
Date: Sun, Jan 6 2008 6:17 pm
From: The Real Bev

Dawn wrote:

> Hello to the group,
> If I make a donation to a non-profit charity using a credit card, does
> the charity pay the credit card fees?

What credit card fees? Do you mean interest on your contributions?
You'd borrow money to contribute? What am I missing?

> Dawn, who so far just writes checks.

My mom wrote checks at Christmas. During the rest of the year she was
constantly railing at the recipients to stop wasting her money by
sending her more begging letters. Since I had her mail forwarded to my
address, the post office thoughtfully told all those goddam beggars of
her new address so now WE get begging letters in her name at our address.

Screw 'em.

The downside is more paper for the landfill or recyclers; the upside is
that some of the charities are stupid enough to enclose stamped
envelopes for the supposed contribution. Since I pay most of my bills
on line, a pair of scissors and a glue stick work just fine to re-use
those stamps.

The absolutely most offensive begging letter I've seen so far has SECOND
NOTICE printed on the outside.

--
Cheers,
Bev
_|-_|-_|-_|-_|-_|-_|-_|-_|-_|-_|-_|-_
Too many freaks, not enough circuses.

== 3 of 9 ==
Date: Sun, Jan 6 2008 6:32 pm
From: Dawn

On Sun, 06 Jan 2008 18:17:15 -0800, The Real Bev
<bashley101+usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>Dawn wrote:
>
>> Hello to the group,
>> If I make a donation to a non-profit charity using a credit card, does
>> the charity pay the credit card fees?
>
>What credit card fees? Do you mean interest on your contributions?
>You'd borrow money to contribute? What am I missing?
>

The fees that the merchant (or in this case charity) pays to the
credit card companies to do business with them.
Dawn, who understands about the extra mail.

== 4 of 9 ==
Date: Sun, Jan 6 2008 6:58 pm
From: "Joe"

CLIP
> the upside is that some of the charities are stupid enough to enclose
> stamped envelopes for the supposed contribution. Since I pay most of my
> bills on line, a pair of scissors and a glue stick work just fine to
> re-use those stamps.

Just cover up the "to" and "return" address. Believe it or not, cutting a
pre-stuck stamp off and re-gluing it is a federal offense for some reason.
It's a law put in place to cover the post office when they forget to cancel
a stamp... The postmaster has the right to refuse a letter with a
non-standard glue holding the stamp on.

Same goes for scotch tape.

> The absolutely most offensive begging letter I've seen so far has SECOND
> NOTICE printed on the outside.

Wow. That is nerve... I work for a charity as a volunteer and have for
over 20 years. Even a single follow-up letter would be inconsistent with
what I think is appropriate.
--

Joe in Northern, NJ - V#8013-R

Currently Riding The "Mother Ship"
http://yunx.com/valk.htm

Ride a motorcycle in or near NJ?
http://tinyurl.com/5apkg

== 5 of 9 ==
Date: Sun, Jan 6 2008 7:09 pm
From: "John Weiss"

"Dawn" <linny4@hotmail.com> wrote...
>>> If I make a donation to a non-profit charity using a credit card, does
>>> the charity pay the credit card fees?
>>
>>What credit card fees? Do you mean interest on your contributions?
>>You'd borrow money to contribute? What am I missing?
>
> The fees that the merchant (or in this case charity) pays to the
> credit card companies to do business with them.
> Dawn, who understands about the extra mail.

Charities who solicit donations and professional solicitors hired by charities
all have legitimate administrative costs. Whether they are credit card fees or
hiring someone to take checks to the bank, they should remain outside the
consideration of the donor.

I get solicitations all the time where the solicitors tell me I would 'save them
administrative costs' by donating NOW by credit card instead of sending a check
later. Somehow I doubt it... I suspect it's more a 'bird in the hand'
situation...

Don't forget to ask the solicitor if [s]he is paid or volunteer, working for the
organization or a contractor. If it is not a volunteer working directly for the
soliciting organization,

1) You need not worry about who pays the credit card fees

2) You may want to reconsider your donation.

The state of WA maintains a comprehensive charities database with
cross-references to commercial solicitation contractors. Even if you don't live
it WA, it may be worth a look:

http://www.secstate.wa.gov/charities/

== 6 of 9 ==
Date: Sun, Jan 6 2008 7:58 pm
From: The Real Bev

Dawn wrote:

> <bashley101+usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Dawn wrote:
>>
>>> Hello to the group,
>>> If I make a donation to a non-profit charity using a credit card, does
>>> the charity pay the credit card fees?
>>
>>What credit card fees? Do you mean interest on your contributions?
>>You'd borrow money to contribute? What am I missing?
>
> The fees that the merchant (or in this case charity) pays to the
> credit card companies to do business with them.

Duh!

> Dawn, who understands about the extra mail.

I guess that's the price you pay for the tax deduction :-(

== 7 of 9 ==
Date: Sun, Jan 6 2008 8:08 pm
From: The Real Bev

Joe wrote:

> CLIP
>> the upside is that some of the charities are stupid enough to enclose
>> stamped envelopes for the supposed contribution. Since I pay most of my
>> bills on line, a pair of scissors and a glue stick work just fine to
>> re-use those stamps.
>
> Just cover up the "to" and "return" address. Believe it or not, cutting a
> pre-stuck stamp off and re-gluing it is a federal offense for some reason.
> It's a law put in place to cover the post office when they forget to cancel
> a stamp... The postmaster has the right to refuse a letter with a
> non-standard glue holding the stamp on.
>
> Same goes for scotch tape.

Not quite. I got into a screaming match with the post office people
about this and didn't really think it was worth a gallon of gas to go to
the BIG post office to get the Postmaster to honor the 41 cents worth of
postage that was GLUED on. The absolute dumbest thing about the
situation was that the substation manager claimed that I'd taped the
stamps on. Any idiot could easily see that there was no tape.

I did phone (or email, I can't remember now) the Big Postmaster and
ultimately the sub-manager called me back with an apology. Asshole.

You can glue stamps on, but not tape them. Theory is that if you tape
them you can wipe the cancellation off the tape and re-use the stamps.
They looked up the regulation that allows re-use, and it said nothing
about the type of glue used.

I suspect that if they're going to quibble about the glue that they
should then replace those stamps with usable ones.

>> The absolutely most offensive begging letter I've seen so far has SECOND
>> NOTICE printed on the outside.
>
> Wow. That is nerve... I work for a charity as a volunteer and have for
> over 20 years. Even a single follow-up letter would be inconsistent with
> what I think is appropriate.

All the letters come from big-name charities that even I have heard of.
At least one per charity per month. Glossy paper. Her name and
address printed in several places, requiring me to rip them up by hand
so I can recycle the rest of the crap. Not only do they waste my mom's
money, they waste the trees and other resources that go into the
overly-elaborate mailings.

Oh yeah. They sold her name to charities she didn't contribute to EVER,
which continued to send the monthly letters.

Repeat: screw 'em all. If they want money, let 'em stand on street
corners ringing bells.

== 8 of 9 ==
Date: Sun, Jan 6 2008 8:16 pm
From: "Joe"

>> Just cover up the "to" and "return" address. Believe it or not, cutting
>> a pre-stuck stamp off and re-gluing it is a federal offense for some
>> reason. It's a law put in place to cover the post office when they forget
>> to cancel a stamp... The postmaster has the right to refuse a letter
>> with a non-standard glue holding the stamp on.
>>
>> Same goes for scotch tape.
>
> Not quite. I got into a screaming match with the post office people about
> this and didn't really think it was worth a gallon of gas to go to the BIG
> post office to get the Postmaster to honor the 41 cents worth of postage
> that was GLUED on. The absolute dumbest thing about the situation was
> that the substation manager claimed that I'd taped the stamps on. Any
> idiot could easily see that there was no tape.
>
> I did phone (or email, I can't remember now) the Big Postmaster and
> ultimately the sub-manager called me back with an apology. Asshole.
>
> You can glue stamps on, but not tape them. Theory is that if you tape
> them you can wipe the cancellation off the tape and re-use the stamps.
> They looked up the regulation that allows re-use, and it said nothing
> about the type of glue used.
>
> I suspect that if they're going to quibble about the glue that they should
> then replace those stamps with usable ones.

Funny. Our local guy and local postmaster dude also bounced back a few...
I simply figured it wasn't worth the hassle... So I proceeded to soak them
in warm water, laid them out to dry and glue sticked them to the next letter
so they couldn't tell. Not frugal use of my time, but I felt better.

Plus I had about $1,000 worth of stamps at the time. Worked for a huge
company that got lots of bulk mail from people complaining on postcards
printed by some religious organization. I scanned all the postcards and
took the ones with non-cancelled stamps home. Only the corners of course...
:)

I *think* what I did was a federal offense, but this story is theoretical,
right? :):)

> All the letters come from big-name charities that even I have heard of. At
> least one per charity per month. Glossy paper. Her name and address
> printed in several places, requiring me to rip them up by hand so I can
> recycle the rest of the crap. Not only do they waste my mom's money, they
> waste the trees and other resources that go into the overly-elaborate
> mailings.
>
> Oh yeah. They sold her name to charities she didn't contribute to EVER,
> which continued to send the monthly letters.
>
> Repeat: screw 'em all. If they want money, let 'em stand on street
> corners ringing bells.

I'm *so* glad I'm part of a group that has some sense of a conscience. We
go so far as to ask members permission to send them mail depending on the
mail-type.

You should collect them all and send them back to the charity UPS collect.
--

Joe in Northern, NJ - V#8013-R

Currently Riding The "Mother Ship"
http://yunx.com/valk.htm

Ride a motorcycle in or near NJ?
http://tinyurl.com/5apkg

== 9 of 9 ==
Date: Sun, Jan 6 2008 8:29 pm
From: Melinda Meahan - take out TRASH to reply

The Real Bev wrote:
> sending her more begging letters. Since I had her mail forwarded to my
> address, the post office thoughtfully told all those goddam beggars of
> her new address so now WE get begging letters in her name at our address.

My sister got all the ones from my mom stopped by writing DECEASED on
the envelope and returning it to the charity.

--
Every job is a self-portrait of the person who does it. Autograph your
work with excellence.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Which is more frugal - keep thermostat at 62 or bump up to 66 and let
fall
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/32bcb9a55cab5416?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Jan 6 2008 2:49 pm
From: tmclone@searchmachine.com

On Jan 6, 12:23 pm, Charles Quinn <cmqu...@NEVERmindspring.com> wrote:
> Joe <joe5...@gmail.com> wrote in news:b2a4263c-85fb-497e-918f-
> 0d41416f6...@5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com:
>
> > back down to 62? It will work harder to get up to the higher temp but
> > then it will not cycle for 4 or 5 hours. If I keep it set at 62 it
> > will cycle every 30 min. Which uses less energy?
>
> http://www1.eere.energy.gov/consumer/tips/thermostats.html
>
> They recommend turning down your thermostat down 10 to 15% while away for
> 8 hours.
>

Agreed, although since weI keep the house at 58 and the thermostat
only goes down to 55, we can't drop it much when we go on vacation
(only time the house is empty for more than 3 hours).

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== 1 of 1 ==
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TOPIC: Make it your New Year's resolution to make some extra cash!!!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/e754d390749f8370?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Jan 6 2008 7:23 pm
From: rutgerskevin

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==============================================================================

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Google Groups: http://groups.google.com?hl=en

25 new messages in 20 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

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== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Jan 6 2008 1:07 am
From: "friesian@zoocrewphoto.com"

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== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Jan 6 2008 10:07 am
From: Dennis

On Sat, 5 Jan 2008 16:29:14 -0500, "Chloe" <justsayno@spam.com> wrote:

>"Bernardo Gui" <spr34y@mypacks.net> wrote in message
>news:c28vn3lk9kbmtlfbuklgp4scgok1jj2890@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 05 Jan 2008 15:10:52 GMT, PaPaPeng <PaPaPeng@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Chinese exports safe, good quality: US official
>>>12:06, January 05, 2008
>>
>> PaPaPeng's continuing efforts to convince Americans that Chinese
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>> reality has any effect on his fantasy.
>>
>> PaPaPeng is the George W. Bush of shoddy, lead-painted,
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>>
>> Bernardo
>
>Yeah, but where he's really confused seems to be with the notion that US
>consumers believe ANYTHING the federal government tells us.

Particularly when something like this is reported in a Chinese
newspaper.

Dennis (evil)
--
"There is a fine line between participation and mockery" - Wally

==============================================================================
TOPIC: http://internettricks.50webs.com/
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/8678157f0d320ee7?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
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TOPIC: CVS weekly deals 1/6-1/12 printable coupons
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== 1 of 1 ==
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TOPIC: help you make the money ,help you make beautiful lift
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==============================================================================
TOPIC: How to compare electric vs natural gas heating costs
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/dd9fcb1495df606e?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Jan 6 2008 4:02 am
From: nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu

Paul M. Eldridge <paul.eldridge@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote:

>With specific regards to Oregon, the average retail cost of natural
>gas per therm/CCF...

>2006 $1.453 [/0.9x3.41KBtu/kWh/100KBtu = $0.0551/kWh of heat]
>
>Source: http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/ng/hist/n3010or3A.htm
>
>The average residential cost of electricity per kWh...

>2006 $0.0748 [3.41/8.5 = 0.0300/kWh of heat]
>
>Source: Table 8,
>http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/st_profiles/oregon.html
>
>Assuming an AFUE of 90 per cent and a HSPF of 8.5, the average cost
>per kWh(e) of natural gas and electric heat in each of these years is
>as follows (the third column represents the cost premium of natural
>gas heat versus the aforementioned heat pump):
>
>2006 $0.0551 $0.0299 1.8 X

Then again, we could run a $200 unvented gas heater with a 100% AFUE and
11% latent heat and run an $80 window AC with an HSPF = EER = 10 indoors
when the house RH exceeds 50% to convert that to sensible heat...

Or forget the gas heater and run a few ACs with a heating thermostat when
the house drops below 70 F and use a humidistat and a solenoid valve and
a soaker hose to wet a basement floor when the house RH drops below 50%.

Nick

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TOPIC: How To Save Money At Christmas
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Jan 6 2008 4:04 am
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So what's the secret? The tradition (and it's really no secret) is
drawing names for Christmas gifts in your family or group. Some people
call it Secret Santa. Basically, you put everyone's name in a hat and
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the group, you give just one gift to the person whose name you draw.
That's one gift instead of many. Uno.

Giving just one gift has great merits. First, it's easy to be
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To make drawing names real simple for your group, just follow two
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- First, draw names early in the season. Give everyone plenty of time
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- Second, define rules and limits for the group to follow.

Plan your gift exchange while you are together with your family or
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you'll have months to choose just one gift.

Remember, your goal is to keep the gift giving simple and the get-
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- Most groups set a dollar limit for their gifts. People usually want
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will receive.

- Many groups keep the draw a secret, and then guess the giver after
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- Some groups decide that the gift must be homemade or pre-owned by
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- Some groups decide that the gift must fit in a Christmas stocking.
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can be added for fun.

- Some groups decide on one particular gift each year, like everyone
gives a picture frame, a hat, or a calendar. Then they change the
chosen gift every year.

- Some groups have a "white elephant" exchange, which is to give
silly, crazy, or even bad gifts that no one would ever want! Watch out
if you choose this type of exchange, because it can quickly get out of
hand.

- The whole idea is to have fun together, so be creative! Some groups
change the rules every year.

The reality of having a secret santa is that you limit your shopping
time and keep your budget reasonable. The magic of drawing names is
that everyone in the group has fun and feels special. It's no wonder
that families make a tradition of drawing names.

Plan early, and you'll sail through those once busy months of November
and December this year. Try it, and you'll never go back to the old
days of endless shopping.

Happy holidays!
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Jan 6 2008 9:23 am
From: Charles Quinn

Joe <joe5345@gmail.com> wrote in news:b2a4263c-85fb-497e-918f-
0d41416f6175@5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com:

> back down to 62? It will work harder to get up to the higher temp but
> then it will not cycle for 4 or 5 hours. If I keep it set at 62 it
> will cycle every 30 min. Which uses less energy?

http://www1.eere.energy.gov/consumer/tips/thermostats.html

They recommend turning down your thermostat down 10 to 15% while away for
8 hours.

Charles
The significant problems we face cannot be solved
at the same level of thinking we were at when we
created them. Albert Einstein

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Sun, Jan 6 2008 9:40 am
From: Dawn

Hello to the group,
If I make a donation to a non-profit charity using a credit card, does
the charity pay the credit card fees?
Dawn, who so far just writes checks.

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Sun, Jan 6 2008 10:30 am
From: "Rod Speed"

Dawn <linny4@hotmail.com> wrote:

> If I make a donation to a non-profit charity using a
> credit card, does the charity pay the credit card fees?

Yes, but there is nothing to stop you increasing the donation to allow for that.

> Dawn, who so far just writes checks.

Dinosaur stuff.

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Sun, Jan 6 2008 10:36 am
From: Dawn

On Mon, 7 Jan 2008 05:30:19 +1100, "Rod Speed"
<rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:

>Dawn <linny4@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> If I make a donation to a non-profit charity using a
>> credit card, does the charity pay the credit card fees?
>
>Yes, but there is nothing to stop you increasing the donation to allow for that.
>
>> Dawn, who so far just writes checks.
>
>Dinosaur stuff.
>
Thanks Rod. I don't know why I didn't think of that.
Dawn, happy being a dinosaur. :P

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Sun, Jan 6 2008 10:36 am
From: George

Dawn wrote:
> Hello to the group,
> If I make a donation to a non-profit charity using a credit card, does
> the charity pay the credit card fees?
> Dawn, who so far just writes checks.

Absolutely, thats why the CC companies do all of the marketing because
they want to insert themselves into every financial transaction.

What I do for charitable contributions is buy those $0.39 money orders
and scribble my name on them. The charity gets the full value and there
is no possibly my name will end up on some solicitation list because
they don't know who I am.

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Jan 6 2008 10:43 am
From: Dawn

Hello to the group,
I wish to thank all the members here for all the ideas and help you
have given me since 1996. You have definitely added greatly to my
life. You have saved me lots of money and given me lots of laughs.

This year I want to continue on my frugal journey.
I plan to finish funding my emergency fund, and
am already looking at seed catalogs for my garden this year.
I don't have any big vacation plans this year although we are going to
Vegas in a couple of weeks. Doing that on FF miles and hotel points.
Only expense will be food and entertainment.
Trying to keep the fire burning so I don't give my money to the
electric company.
Anyone else like to share their plans for this year?
Dawn, who still likes her frugal mindset.