Frugal Living: Oct 15, 2007

Monday, October 15, 2007

25 new messages in 10 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Why does olive oil & vinnegar (mixed) need to be refrigerated anyway?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/cbc77de31f1e4169?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 12 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 6:07 pm
From: "just joe"

>> amazon.com has some good deals on dictionaries.
>
> Only a fool bothers with that sort of dinosaur technology when there are
> so many online.
>

kinda why i suggested it to you...................................

== 2 of 12 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 6:20 pm
From: Logan Shaw

Rod Speed wrote:
> GreenieLeBrun <GreenieLeBrun@hotmail.com> wrote:

>> You will find that these commercial dressings contain preservatives
>> that inhibit the growth of microorganisms
>
> Mine doesnt.

Well, you learn something new every day. Rod Speed has his own brand
of salad dressing, just like Paul Newman. I never would've guessed it.

- Logan

== 3 of 12 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 6:33 pm
From: hchickpea@hotmail.com

On Mon, 15 Oct 2007 17:08:17 -0700, "Bob F" <bobnospam@gmail.com>
wrote:

>> Consistant with the fact that mayonaise can be unrefrigerated, but
>> that once it is mixed into other foods the mixture can be deadly.
>
>Doesn't it usually say "refrigerate after opening"?

You obviously know my old girlfriend.

== 4 of 12 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 7:04 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

just joe <don.gato@alaska.com> wrote:
>>> amazon.com has some good deals on dictionaries.
>>
>> Only a fool bothers with that sort of dinosaur technology when there
>> are so many online.
>>
>
> kinda why i suggested it to you...................................

Never ever could bullshit its way out of a wet paper bag.

Even someone as stupid as you should be able to find countless
examples of where I have posted a link to an online dictionary.

== 5 of 12 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 7:05 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

Logan Shaw <lshaw-usenet@austin.rr.com> wrote:
> Rod Speed wrote:
>> GreenieLeBrun <GreenieLeBrun@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> You will find that these commercial dressings contain preservatives
>>> that inhibit the growth of microorganisms
>>
>> Mine doesnt.
>
> Well, you learn something new every day. Rod Speed has his own brand
> of salad dressing, just like Paul Newman. I never would've guessed it.

Pathetic.

== 6 of 12 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 7:09 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

Daniel T. <daniel_t@earthlink.net> wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>> Daniel T. <daniel_t@earthlink.net> wrote:

>>> As I understand it, the garlic and other herbs put in the dressing
>>> may have botulism spores on them, the oil provides the
>>> environment for the botulism to grow. The vinegar doesn't stop
>>> the growth because it separates too easily from the mix.

>> Doesnt explain why the ready to use stuff keeps fine unrefrigerated
>> but you need to refrigerate it once its been opened.

> Commercial salad dressings and acidified sauces are microbiologically safe.

They do however tell you to refrigerate after opening. There's a reason for that.

> Manufacturers follow strict quality controls and diligently
> comply with FDA-mandated Good Manufacturing
> Practices in production of these commercial products.

See above.

> Commercial salad dressing and sauce products are also made with pasteurized eggs

Not the ones being discussed, those dont contain any eggs at all.

> that are free of Salmonella and other pathogenic bacteria
> and further ensure the safety of these products.

See above.

> As such, these commercial products do not have
> the food safety risks associated with their homemade
> counterparts, which contain unpasteurized eggs.

Not the ones being discussed, those dont contain any eggs at all.

> Homemade versions also may not contain sufficient
> quantities of food acids like vinegar (acetic acid) or
> lemon juice (citric acid) to kill harmful microorganisms.

Unlikely with the mixture being discussed, see the subject.

> (http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~mow/chap1sal.html)

Not relevant to what is being discussed.

== 7 of 12 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 8:07 pm
From: "just joe"

>
> Never ever could bullshit its way out of a wet paper bag.
>

look up the word 'grammar'. you could probably find a good book on
amazon.com

== 8 of 12 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 8:08 pm
From: William Souden

Rod Speed wrote:t.
>
> Pathetic.
>
>
You certainly are, welfare boy.

== 9 of 12 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 8:22 pm
From: William Souden

just joe wrote:
>> Never ever could bullshit its way out of a wet paper bag.
>>
>
> look up the word 'grammar'. you could probably find a good book on
> amazon.com
>
>
welfare Rod dropped out of high school.

== 10 of 12 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 9:12 pm
From: "John Weiss"

"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote...
>
> Wrong, as always. A freshly manufactured glass bottle is close
> enough to sterile just because of the process used to make it.

So, what does that have to do with the state of olive oil or vinegar?
Packaging plants don't manufacture bottles; they fill bottles that have
been made elsewhere and shipped.

== 11 of 12 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 9:46 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

just joe <don.gato@alaska.com> wrote:

> look up the word 'grammar'. you could probably find a good book on amazon.com

Never ever could bullshit its way out of a wet paper bag.

== 12 of 12 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 9:50 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

John Weiss <jrweiss@nospamattglobal.net> wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>> GreenieLeBrun <GreenieLeBrun@hotmail.com> wrote
>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>> GreenieLeBrun <GreenieLeBrun@hotmail.com> wrote
>>>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>>>> GreenieLeBrun <GreenieLeBrun@hotmail.com> wrote
>>>>>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>>>>>> Goomba38 <Goomba38@comcast.net> wrote
>>>>>>>>> Rod Speed wrote

>>>>>>>>>>> Why must I refrigerate a mix of that which
>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't itself need to be refrigerated?

>>>>>>>>>> Essentially because the mixing will normally end up contaminating the mixture, if only because the container
>>>>>>>>>> wont be sterile.

>>>>>>>>> They technically weren't sterile beforehand either.

>>>>>>>> The containers they came in were near enough.

>>>>>>> Sterility (from a microbiological view)is like virginity it either is or it isn't no in between.

>>>>>> Wrong with new containers for those components.

>>>>> No, not unless those containers were sterilised via autoclaving, hot air (160C), or gamma irradiation.

>>>> They end up close enough to sterile due to the manufacturing process.

>>> There is no such thing as "close enough to sterile". Sterility is an absolute.

>> Wrong, as always. A freshly manufactured glass bottle is close
>> enough to sterile just because of the process used to make it.

> So, what does that have to do with the state of olive oil or vinegar?

Everything to do with the fact that they are sterile enout for all practical purposes.

> Packaging plants don't manufacture bottles; they fill bottles that have been made elsewhere and shipped.

Duh.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: flush da toilet with rain-water
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/d09a42bdb27b1164?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 6:41 pm
From: Beloved Leader

On Oct 15, 1:51 pm, A Veteran <geor...@humboldt1.com> wrote:
> our local University has built a "green" bldg. it collects rain water to
> flush the toilets. for at least 5 months in a very rainey North West.

The new T. C. Williams High School in Alexandria, Virginia, is like
this. There is a 500,000 gallon cistern underneath the school to hold
rain water used for flushing the toilets.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: cheap sell wholesale handbags wallets purse bags
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/03452fb1ffaf47a1?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
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==============================================================================
TOPIC: "If it's yellow, let it mellow. If it's red ....
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/1ab4eec5e0e4a531?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 7:26 pm
From: Alan Truism

On Fri, 12 Oct 2007 11:27:08 -0400, Otto Bahn wrote:

> "HangEveryRepubliKKKan" <Justice@ExecuteTheBushTraitor.com> wrote
>
>> > I'm all for water conservation, but I don't really care to get his piss on
>> > me from urinal splash back. I now have to flush both before and after I
>> > pee.
>>
>> But you don't mind getting your own piss on you from urnal splashback when
>> you pee.
>>
>> Maybe you should stand back a little further, adjust your aim, or use the
>> toilet.
>
> I never flush urinals. If the next guy doesn't like it,
> he can do it. I'm not a hygiene freak, but I ain't
> touching anything I don't have to in a pubic restroom.
> And yes, if you are standing, you are splashing, but I
> figure sitting is even worse, except at my house. The
> designers of toilets and urinals do their best, but
> there's no escaping physics.
>

What about at work?

What do your coworkers say when they walk in after you to find
a golden glowing bowl of piss?

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 8:48 pm
From: "HangEveryRepubliKKKan"

"Alan Truism" <alan.truism@yahoo.com> wrote
> What do your coworkers say when they walk in after you to find
> a golden glowing bowl of piss?

He never flushes toilets either. He just leaves a nice log for his fellow
AmeriKKKan countrymen to discover.

I think I'll do the same next time I visit the AmeriKKKan state.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: For those who rarely fill their refrigerators.....
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/5e16d6f7a7266491?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 9:38 pm
From: Logan Shaw

Jeff wrote:
> What the water does is store thermal energy and even out any
> temperature swings. But it has to be cooled itself and that is power
> that you never would have spent if you hadn't put it in! And that power
> drain is not just initial, but continuous.

I think you're 100% correct up to the "not just initial, but continuous"
part. I don't think that part is true because if it were, the jugs of
water would be a magical source of heat. Heat enters through the walls
of the fridge at a fixed rate (given a certain temperature inside), and
what's inside the fridge doesn't affect how much heat enter.

However, a larger thermal mass will cause the temperature inside to shift
more slowly because more heat is required to raise the temperature a given
amount. And that is the reasoning for keeping a full fridge: the heat
gain from the exterior is the same, but if the thermal mass is higher,
the cycle time of the refrigeration system will be longer. To the extent
that there is overhead in starting up the refrigeration system, this could
increase the efficiency slightly.

> I think a better question is
> just how much less electricity will an empty fridge use than a full one.

Yes, that is the ultimate test. I suspect the thermal mass of the
inside and its effect on cycle time is pretty well overwhelmed by other
factors, like how much insulation there is in the walls of the fridge,
whether the door seals are sealing properly, and whether the coils have
been cleaned recently.

- Logan

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 9:44 pm
From: Logan Shaw

nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu wrote:
> It's mostly initial, but adding mass surface inside the fridge increases
> airflow and condensation when the door is open, so the fridge gains more
> heat when the door is open and uses more energy over time, IMO.

That probably depends on how you arrange things physically within the
fridge. If you, say, never use the bottom shelf and you put a 5-gallon
jug of water down there, and orient it so that it blocks the air from
sinking out, it could reduce the airflow a lot and maybe only increase
the condensation a little. Also, if you fill the fridge *really* full,
you are reducing the total volume of air in the fridge, and thus reducing
the airflow (because it takes force to move air through narrow passages,
due to friction).

I guess the best plan is to get a fridge with an airlock instead of a
door. Or remodel your kitchen and make it much larger so that you can
fit in a chest fridge / freezer. Or maybe work on antigravity. Or
get some of those clear plastic strips they hang as a curtain in doors
to prevent excess airflow.

- Logan

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 9:59 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

Logan Shaw <lshaw-usenet@austin.rr.com> wrote:
> Jeff wrote:
>> What the water does is store thermal energy and even out any
>> temperature swings. But it has to be cooled itself and that is power
>> that you never would have spent if you hadn't put it in! And that
>> power drain is not just initial, but continuous.

> I think you're 100% correct up to the "not just initial, but continuous" part.

I initially had the same reaction but decided its just clumsy wording
and he really means that there will be an ongoing effect on the
amount of heat they are involved in every time the door is opened,
in the sense that nick spelt that out more clearly, rather than
continuous in the sense of what happens when the door is kept closed.

> I don't think that part is true because if it were, the jugs of water would be a magical source of heat. Heat enters
> through the walls of the fridge at a fixed rate (given a certain temperature inside), and what's inside the fridge
> doesn't affect how much heat enter.

I doubt he doesnt realise that.

> However, a larger thermal mass will cause the temperature inside to shift more slowly because more heat is required to
> raise the
> temperature a given amount. And that is the reasoning for keeping a full fridge: the heat gain from the exterior is
> the same, but if the
> thermal mass is higher, the cycle time of the refrigeration system
> will be longer. To the extent that there is overhead in starting up
> the refrigeration system, this could increase the efficiency slightly.

And you may well get the effect nick proposed, the extra surfaces
of the containers of water may well provide a place for condensation
to occur every time the door is opened, and that condensation has
to be cooled as well.

>> I think a better question is just how much less electricity will an empty fridge use than a full one.

> Yes, that is the ultimate test.

I bet its actually surprisingly difficult to test, because the amount of
energy required to cool the air that replaces what falls out of the
fridge without the containers of water is so low, that it may well
be swamped by the variations in the different airflow with the
containers of water, and the effect of condensation in that situation etc.

> I suspect the thermal mass of the inside and its effect on cycle time is pretty well overwhelmed by other factors,
> like how much insulation there is in the walls of the fridge, whether the door seals are sealing properly, and whether
> the coils have been cleaned recently.

And how often the door is opened in spades, and the
state of the air outside the fridge, particularly humidity wise.

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 11:15 pm
From: Jeff

Logan Shaw wrote:
> Jeff wrote:
>
>> What the water does is store thermal energy and even out any
>> temperature swings. But it has to be cooled itself and that is power
>> that you never would have spent if you hadn't put it in! And that
>> power drain is not just initial, but continuous.
>
>
> I think you're 100% correct up to the "not just initial, but continuous"
> part. I don't think that part is true because if it were, the jugs of
> water would be a magical source of heat. Heat enters through the walls
> of the fridge at a fixed rate (given a certain temperature inside), and
> what's inside the fridge doesn't affect how much heat enter.

I'm unsure of this myself. Most of the loss is initial, but there is
a cycle of slight cooling and slight warming (including the defrost
cycle) and more mass will take more power to drive that. Note also
Nicks post about another surface for moisture to condense on when the
door is open.
>
> However, a larger thermal mass will cause the temperature inside to shift
> more slowly because more heat is required to raise the temperature a given
> amount. And that is the reasoning for keeping a full fridge: the heat
> gain from the exterior is the same, but if the thermal mass is higher,
> the cycle time of the refrigeration system will be longer. To the extent
> that there is overhead in starting up the refrigeration system, this could
> increase the efficiency slightly.

Could be, but I think the start up surge is a small compared to the
run time. I remember when we discussed fluorescent starting surge that
another urban myth of leaving fluorescent lights on saved money was
debunked.
>
>> I think a better question is just how much less electricity will an
>> empty fridge use than a full one.
>
>
> Yes, that is the ultimate test. I suspect the thermal mass of the
> inside and its effect on cycle time is pretty well overwhelmed by other
> factors, like how much insulation there is in the walls of the fridge,
> whether the door seals are sealing properly, and whether the coils have
> been cleaned recently.

Refrigerator power useage has dropped dramatically. In the last decade
it plummeted and if you go back another decade or so you'll see a
another step in efficiency. How much of that is compressor technology
and how much is insulation or even poor maintenance I don't know.

Curiously while researching that I ran across this. "Ten tips to
reduce refrigerator power consumption":

<URL:

http://ezinearticles.com/?10-Tips-To-Reduce-The-Power-Consumption-Of-The-Refrigerator&id=526324

And the urban myth of the jugs of water is nowhere to be found.

Wish I could find the power consumption stats, funny how I kept
running across those while I was looking for something completely different!

Jeff

>
> - Logan

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Old hillbilly trick
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/43174d8ee314b8f1?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 9:46 pm
From: Logan Shaw

Shadowland wrote:
> Instead of buying "Chaplips" lip gloss...stick your finger in your
> ear. Ear wax is an excellent
> lip gloss substitution.

And tastes DELICIOUS!

- Logan

==============================================================================
TOPIC: personal checks
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/c66a055f62296a0a?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 10:03 pm
From: bob@coolgroups.com

Can someone recommend a cheap place to re-order personal checks on the
net?

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Bush To Let Illegal Aliens Get $40 Digital TV Coupons
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/f941e4a655a77d3f?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 10:24 pm
From: wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr)

In article <151020070639353960%takebackamerica@2008.com>,
Audie Murphy's Ghost <takebackamerica@2008.com> said:

> In article <471312d8$0$20631$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>,
> Anthony Matonak <anthonym40@nothing.like.socal.rr.com> wrote:
>
>> Audie Murphy's Ghost wrote:
>>
>>> So now you want to blow people up and shoot them for crossing
>>> a border. How North Korean of you.
>>
>> How much problem does North Korea have with illegal aliens
>> crossing the border?
>
> Gee, that's funny. Do you do parties?

"Thank you ladies and gentlemen, you've been a great audience.
Don't forget to have your waitress deported."

--
William December Starr <wdstarr@panix.com>

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Did I buy the worst two Nikon cameras (or are they all this bad?)
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/3b49006a02b43efc?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 10:38 pm
From: Jeanette Guire

On Mon, 15 Oct 2007 18:54:59 +0100, BIC wrote:
> you have just been unlucky...........or heavy handed.

It's a VERY common problem BIC. Google for the Nikon coolpix battery door
latch and you'll see many people have the same problem. For every one you
find, there are hundreds who don't know about the usenet or the forums.
Even Nikon's own forums are fraught with sorry sad little coolpix owners.

Look at the design in the photos of the notorious Nikon Coolpix 2100 and
3100 series cameras. You, like most others in this thread, will have to
conclude the little flimsy plastic loop is bound to break under almost ANY
circumstance.

Did you actually look at the pictures?

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Acomplia Acheter Online
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/28918389ecbb2a11?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 11:16 pm
From: PLOTARYAN@gmail.com

On Oct 15, 9:20 pm, milis <don.2.da...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Acomplia Acheter Online
>
> http://acomplia.easy--forex.com/fr.html
>
> Acomplia (rimonabant) promet les avantages doubles pour les personnes
> obèses et pour ceux qui souhaitent sérieusement stopper le tabagisme.
> Crainte de beaucoup de gens de mettre plus de livres après le
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> C'est les fumeurs principaux de raison redoutent et ils hésitent ainsi
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> Acomplia est efficace pour les personnes qui souhaitent perdre le
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> Aucune merveille de plus en plus personnes ne font confiance à cette
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>
> http://acomplia.easy--forex.com/fr.html

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24 new messages in 8 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

* What are you planning for Sweetest Day this Saturday? - 4 messages, 4
authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/045f914110927a39?hl=en
* Buy local produce - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/e35af9f5cf8c8f29?hl=en
* wholesale prada shoes,gucci shoes,4us shoes,desuarel2 shoes,air max shoes -
1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/a148f5c21f3a2249?hl=en
* Why does olive oil & vinnegar (mixed) need to be refrigerated anyway? - 14
messages, 7 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/cbc77de31f1e4169?hl=en
* FREE 2008 Prayer Calendar from Billy Graham - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/3ac1a91515f50d34?hl=en
* Bush To Let Illegal Aliens Get $40 Digital TV Coupons - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/f941e4a655a77d3f?hl=en
* For those who rarely fill their refrigerators..... - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/5e16d6f7a7266491?hl=en
* Old hillbilly trick - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/43174d8ee314b8f1?hl=en

==============================================================================
TOPIC: What are you planning for Sweetest Day this Saturday?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/045f914110927a39?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 2:18 pm
From: Anthony Matonak

OhioGuy wrote:
>> To ignore what is just another stupid con job.
>
> How so? I spoke to my Grandfather, and he says most folks around here
> have celebrated it since he was a kid. (and he's 84)

I didn't grow up in the Midwest and neither did my father or his father.
This is entirely new to me and generations before me. I guess I'll have
to just do the same thing I do with all the other special days that have
absolutely no meaning to me, my family or anyone I know.

Anthony

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 2:18 pm
From: Peter Bruells

Anthony Matonak <anthonym40@nothing.like.socal.rr.com> writes:

> OhioGuy wrote:
> >> To ignore what is just another stupid con job.
> > How so? I spoke to my Grandfather, and he says most folks around
> > here have celebrated it since he was a kid. (and he's 84)
>
> I didn't grow up in the Midwest and neither did my father or his father.
> This is entirely new to me and generations before me. I guess I'll have
> to just do the same thing I do with all the other special days that have
> absolutely no meaning to me, my family or anyone I know.

Yeah... but it sounds as if its a "holiday" one can easily ignore,
unless the pest of Halloween which has crept over the Atlantic.

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 4:09 pm
From: Derald

"OhioGuy" <none@none.net> wrote:

> I'm planning on getting my wife a box of malted milk balls - her
>favorite - and writing a poem for her. The day is about showing you
>remembered and that you appreciate the person with a small gift (usually
>edible), not about trying to get huge or expensive gifts.
Baloney; the day is about yet another "occasion" with the
"opportunity" to buy more malted milk balls, for example. It's as
manufactured as Christmas and Mother's Day. Just silly.

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 3:13 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

OhioGuy <none@none.net> wrote:

>> To ignore what is just another stupid con job.

> How so?

Its just another con job designed to get people to spend more on confectionary.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweetest_Day

> I spoke to my Grandfather, and he says most folks around
> here have celebrated it since he was a kid. (and he's 84)

All that means is that its a con job thats been around for quite a while.

> It is also on our wall calendar.

Any effective con job gets onto the calendars.

> Why would you consider an opportunity to show your appreciation to someone you love (at little cost, I might add) to
> be a con job?

Because its obviously designed to increase the sales of that sort of thing.

> 50 years ago, Sweetest Day was mostly celebrated in the Midwest. However, as jobs moved, the Interstates were built,
> and people
> started becoming more mobile, they took their local holidays with
> them, including Sweetest Day.

> That is why Texas, California and Florida are now up in the top 10
> as far as # of people celebrating Sweetest Day. Just 10 years ago,
> it was still all Midwest states.

Irrevant to whether its just another con job designed to get people to spend more on confectionary.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Buy local produce
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/e35af9f5cf8c8f29?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 2:24 pm
From: James

On Oct 15, 2:36 pm, Cindy Hamilton <angelicapagane...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> On Oct 13, 5:11 pm, Shadowland <saints2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > When you buy far flung produce you encourage long distance shipping.
> > Let save all that fuel and buy local. Spending locally help your
> > local economy also.
>
> What the hell are we supposed to eat when the ground is frozen solid
> for months on end?
>
> Get a grip.

What did people eat one hundred years ago, when shipping produce
around the world was almost unheard of (with some exceptions).

Root vegatables like potatoes, turnips, carrots, and squash, apples
are all cold stored and sold at reasonable prices throughout the
winter.

We don't stop buying imports all together, but we do reduce during the
winter.

And of course another technique was to can (or more recently freeze)
local produce to use all year round.

The reason many of our veggies are tasteless these days is they are
picked at a point where they can be transported long distances without
spoilage, which means in many cases they never fully ripened.

I go to farmers markets when I can to get local, and it does taste
better.

James

==============================================================================
TOPIC: wholesale prada shoes,gucci shoes,4us shoes,desuarel2 shoes,air max
shoes
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/a148f5c21f3a2249?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 2:27 pm
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== 1 of 14 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 3:18 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

John Weiss <jrweiss@nospamattglobal.net> wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote...

>>>>>>> Why must I refrigerate a mix of that which
>>>>>>> doesn't itself need to be refrigerated?

>>>>>> Essentially because the mixing will normally end up contaminating
>>>>>> the mixture, if only because the container wont be sterile.

>>>>> They technically weren't sterile beforehand either.

>>>> The containers they came in were near enough.

>>> Not nearly...clean is a far cry from "sterile"

>> They're pretty close to sterile in practice.

> Nope.

Yep.

> Once the containers are opened, they are no longer sterile. After being used many times and opened & closed
> repeatedly, they are no longer sterile.

And few bother to refrigerate olive oil and vinegar once they have
been opened and the container doesnt say that you should either.

> The container used for the mixture may be as clean or cleaner than the bottles of oil & vinegar.

Unlikely given that the container will have been washed
in the home, and not new in the manufacturing plant.

> FWIW, many restaurants keep salad dressings in unrefrigerated
> containers. If you use them up in a reasonable time (a few days)
> there is no need to refrigerate them.

Irrelevant to the question that was asked.

> OTOH, repeated shaking of the mixture will aerate it, and possibly
> accelerate the oxidation of the olive oil, which will change its
> taste and aroma. Refrigeration may help delay that oxidation.

== 2 of 14 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 3:31 pm
From: Brian Mailman

Rod Speed wrote:
> Daniel T. <daniel_t@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> Jeanette Guire <jeanetteguire@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>>> Why must I refrigerate a mix of that which doesn't itself need to be
>>> refrigerated?
>>
>> As I understand it, the garlic and other herbs put in the dressing may
>> have botulism spores on them, the oil provides the environment for the
>> botulism to grow. The vinegar doesn't stop the growth because it
>> separates too easily from the mix.
>
> Doesnt explain why the ready to use stuff keeps fine unrefrigerated
> but you need to refrigerate it once its been opened.

How about what "we" say over here in rfp when a similar question comes
up: "Commercial producers have equipment and techniques not available
to the home cook."

>> You may be able to avoid refrigeration if you
>> first infuse the herbs and garlic in pure vinegar.
>
> You're unlikely to be able to do that in a sterile situation without a lot of trouble.
>
>> However I think the likelihood of spoilage is greater if you do this.
>
> Corse it is.
>
>> (It may not be toxic, but it will taste bad.)
>
>

== 3 of 14 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 3:36 pm
From: "GreenieLeBrun"

Rod Speed wrote:
> GreenieLeBrun <GreenieLeBrun@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Rod Speed wrote:
>>> Goomba38 <Goomba38@comcast.net> wrote
>>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>
>>>>>> Why must I refrigerate a mix of that which
>>>>>> doesn't itself need to be refrigerated?
>>>
>>>>> Essentially because the mixing will normally end up contaminating
>>>>> the mixture, if only because the container wont be sterile.
>>>
>>>> They technically weren't sterile beforehand either.
>>>
>>> The containers they came in were near enough.
>>
>> Sterility (from a microbiological view)is like virginity it either is
>> or it isn't no in between.
>
> Wrong with new containers for those components.

No, not unless those containers were sterilised via autoclaving, hot air
(160C), or gamma irradiation.

== 4 of 14 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 3:38 pm
From: "GreenieLeBrun"

Rod Speed wrote:
> GreenieLeBrun <GreenieLeBrun@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Goomba38 wrote:
>>> Ron Peterson wrote:
>>>> On Oct 14, 10:18 pm, Jeanette Guire <jeanettegu...@sbcglobal.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> Neither olive oil nor vinnegar need to be refrigerated; yet when
>>>>> mixed (as in home-made salad dressing), the recipes all ask for it
>>>>> to be refrigerated (where it congeals to a gooey mess).
>>>>
>>>>> What is different about olive oil + vinnegar + a few spices & salt
>>>>> from a microbial culture standpoint?
>>>>
>>>> The bacteria need to be in water to live and the oil provides the
>>>> food for them to grow.
>>>
>>> Bacteria do not need water to survive.
>>> That said, I'd be curious if this is just habit or has anyone
>>> actually done study of whether the mixed oil/vinegar require
>>> chilling to keep bacterial load in check? What other ingredients are
>>> added tht might introduce higher risks?
>>
>> Microorganisms such as bacteria and fungi (including yeasts) require
>> a certain level of "Available Water" to metabolise and grow. Properly
>> made jams do not have sufficient "Available Water" to permit
>> microbial growth.
>> Fungi and bacteria can grow (usually anaerobically) at an oil/water
>> interface an this causes immense problems when water gets in to fuel
>> storages causing the build up of gunge that can disable jet engines
>> (most embarrising at 20,000 feet when all engines cut out).
>
> The problem with that theory is that the dressing sold ready to use
> already has that interface and doesnt require refrigeration until its
> opened.
>> The question is what bacteria are able to grow at the vinegar/oil
>> interface? My guess would be very few medically important
>> microorganisms if it is good quality vinegar.
>
>> Either make the dressing up in small batches and discard the unused
>> portion or keep it in the fridge and either zap it in the microwave
>> or warm it up with warm water before use.

You will find that these commercial dressings contain preservatives that
inhibit the growth of microorganisms

== 5 of 14 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 4:13 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

GreenieLeBrun <GreenieLeBrun@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Rod Speed wrote:
>> GreenieLeBrun <GreenieLeBrun@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> Rod Speed wrote:
>>>> Goomba38 <Goomba38@comcast.net> wrote
>>>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>>
>>>>>>> Why must I refrigerate a mix of that which
>>>>>>> doesn't itself need to be refrigerated?
>>>>
>>>>>> Essentially because the mixing will normally end up contaminating
>>>>>> the mixture, if only because the container wont be sterile.
>>>>
>>>>> They technically weren't sterile beforehand either.
>>>>
>>>> The containers they came in were near enough.
>>>
>>> Sterility (from a microbiological view)is like virginity it either
>>> is or it isn't no in between.
>>
>> Wrong with new containers for those components.
>
> No, not unless those containers were sterilised via autoclaving, hot
> air (160C), or gamma irradiation.

They end up close enough to sterile due to the manufacturing process.

== 6 of 14 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 4:16 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

GreenieLeBrun <GreenieLeBrun@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Rod Speed wrote:
>> GreenieLeBrun <GreenieLeBrun@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> Goomba38 wrote:
>>>> Ron Peterson wrote:
>>>>> On Oct 14, 10:18 pm, Jeanette Guire <jeanettegu...@sbcglobal.net>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> Neither olive oil nor vinnegar need to be refrigerated; yet when
>>>>>> mixed (as in home-made salad dressing), the recipes all ask for
>>>>>> it to be refrigerated (where it congeals to a gooey mess).
>>>>>
>>>>>> What is different about olive oil + vinnegar + a few spices &
>>>>>> salt from a microbial culture standpoint?
>>>>>
>>>>> The bacteria need to be in water to live and the oil provides the
>>>>> food for them to grow.
>>>>
>>>> Bacteria do not need water to survive.
>>>> That said, I'd be curious if this is just habit or has anyone
>>>> actually done study of whether the mixed oil/vinegar require
>>>> chilling to keep bacterial load in check? What other ingredients
>>>> are added tht might introduce higher risks?
>>>
>>> Microorganisms such as bacteria and fungi (including yeasts) require
>>> a certain level of "Available Water" to metabolise and grow.
>>> Properly made jams do not have sufficient "Available Water" to
>>> permit microbial growth.
>>> Fungi and bacteria can grow (usually anaerobically) at an oil/water
>>> interface an this causes immense problems when water gets in to fuel
>>> storages causing the build up of gunge that can disable jet engines
>>> (most embarrising at 20,000 feet when all engines cut out).
>>
>> The problem with that theory is that the dressing sold ready to use
>> already has that interface and doesnt require refrigeration until its
>> opened.
>>> The question is what bacteria are able to grow at the vinegar/oil
>>> interface? My guess would be very few medically important
>>> microorganisms if it is good quality vinegar.
>>
>>> Either make the dressing up in small batches and discard the unused
>>> portion or keep it in the fridge and either zap it in the microwave
>>> or warm it up with warm water before use.
>
> You will find that these commercial dressings contain preservatives
> that inhibit the growth of microorganisms

Mine doesnt.

== 7 of 14 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 4:56 pm
From: "GreenieLeBrun"

Rod Speed wrote:
> GreenieLeBrun <GreenieLeBrun@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Rod Speed wrote:
>>> GreenieLeBrun <GreenieLeBrun@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Rod Speed wrote:
>>>>> Goomba38 <Goomba38@comcast.net> wrote
>>>>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Why must I refrigerate a mix of that which
>>>>>>>> doesn't itself need to be refrigerated?
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Essentially because the mixing will normally end up
>>>>>>> contaminating the mixture, if only because the container wont
>>>>>>> be sterile.
>>>>>
>>>>>> They technically weren't sterile beforehand either.
>>>>>
>>>>> The containers they came in were near enough.
>>>>
>>>> Sterility (from a microbiological view)is like virginity it either
>>>> is or it isn't no in between.
>>>
>>> Wrong with new containers for those components.
>>
>> No, not unless those containers were sterilised via autoclaving, hot
>> air (160C), or gamma irradiation.
>
> They end up close enough to sterile due to the manufacturing process.

There is no such thing as "close enough to sterile". Sterility is an
absolute. Granted, the vessels will be, in all probability, very clean but
that is the best that can be claimed.

== 8 of 14 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 5:08 pm
From: "Bob F"

<hchickpea@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:s297h3hakjmmgvo8er0np7ljnec8191bf9@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 15 Oct 2007 11:11:03 GMT, ppnerkDELETETHIS@yahoo.com (Phred)
> wrote:
>
>>In article <c%AQi.6197$lE2.1930@newssvr22.news.prodigy.net>, Jeanette Guire
>><jeanetteguire@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>Neither olive oil nor vinnegar need to be refrigerated; yet when mixed (as
>>>in home-made salad dressing), the recipes all ask for it to be refrigerated
>>>(where it congeals to a gooey mess).
>>>
>>>What is different about olive oil + vinnegar + a few spices & salt from a
>>>microbial culture standpoint?
>>>
>>>Why must I refrigerate a mix of that which doesn't itself need to be
>>>refrigerated?
>>
>>I noted various responses to this thread, but my opinion is that it's
>>the *spices* that will most likely cause a potential problem by
>>introducing a suite of chemicals that microbes will find useful for
>>growth. (As well as probably introducing a nice selection of
>>bacterial spores to start the rot, so to speak. :-)
>>
>>Also, as others mentioned, bugs that may be able to metabolise
>>pure olive oil probably require some moisture present to do their
>>thing, and that would be provided by the vinegar.
>>
>>Further, if the pH of the final brew is higher than the magic figure
>>(4.6?) then some common nasties will be able to grow in it.
>>
>>Cheers, Phred.
>
> Consistant with the fact that mayonaise can be unrefrigerated, but
> that once it is mixed into other foods the mixture can be deadly.

Doesn't it usually say "refrigerate after opening"?

Bob

== 9 of 14 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 5:19 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

GreenieLeBrun <GreenieLeBrun@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Rod Speed wrote:
>> GreenieLeBrun <GreenieLeBrun@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> Rod Speed wrote:
>>>> GreenieLeBrun <GreenieLeBrun@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Rod Speed wrote:
>>>>>> Goomba38 <Goomba38@comcast.net> wrote
>>>>>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Why must I refrigerate a mix of that which
>>>>>>>>> doesn't itself need to be refrigerated?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Essentially because the mixing will normally end up
>>>>>>>> contaminating the mixture, if only because the container wont
>>>>>>>> be sterile.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> They technically weren't sterile beforehand either.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The containers they came in were near enough.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sterility (from a microbiological view)is like virginity it either
>>>>> is or it isn't no in between.
>>>>
>>>> Wrong with new containers for those components.
>>>
>>> No, not unless those containers were sterilised via autoclaving, hot
>>> air (160C), or gamma irradiation.
>>
>> They end up close enough to sterile due to the manufacturing process.

> There is no such thing as "close enough to sterile". Sterility is an absolute.

Wrong, as always. A freshly manufactured glass bottle is close
enough to sterile just because of the process used to make it.

> Granted, the vessels will be, in all probability, very clean but that is the best that can be claimed.

Same thing, different words.

== 10 of 14 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 5:33 pm
From: "just joe"

>>> They end up close enough to sterile due to the manufacturing process.
>
>> There is no such thing as "close enough to sterile". Sterility is an
>> absolute.
>
> Wrong, as always. A freshly manufactured glass bottle is close
> enough to sterile just because of the process used to make it.
>
>> Granted, the vessels will be, in all probability, very clean but that is
>> the best that can be claimed.
>
> Same thing, different words.
>

uh, rod buddy, words mean something.

sterile will never mean close enough to sterile.

different words mean different things.

amazon.com has some good deals on dictionaries.

== 11 of 14 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 5:52 pm
From: Daniel MacKay

> Having fun thrashing that straw man are you child ?

Don't take my word for it. do it.

== 12 of 14 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 5:59 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

Daniel MacKay <daniel@bonmot.ca> wrote:
> Rod Speed wrote
>> Daniel MacKay <daniel@bonmot.ca> wrote:

>>>> They're pretty close to sterile in practice.

>>> You're not listening.

>> You in spades.

>>> Either a container is sterile - that is, a can, or a jar with
>>> an airtight seal, and has been "processed" at a certain
>>> temperature for a certain number of minutes, or it is not.
>>> There is no such thing as "pretty close in practice."

>> You can keep asserting that till you are blue in the face if you like, changes nothing.

>>> Dressing and mayonnaise containers in the grocery store are not. They
>>> have cardboard seals, are in no way airtight, and have not been "processed."

>> And they are close enough to sterile for all practical purposes anyway.

>>> They can't be processed - you can't heat mayonnaise.

>> We aint talking about mayonnaise.

>>> Conversely, if you argue that a plastic jar with a cardboard seal

>> Its got a plastic top as well as the cardboard seal.

>>> is sufficient to preserve food, you should put up some fruits and
>>> vegetables that way and check back on them in a couple of weeks.

>> Having fun thrashing that straw man are you child ?

> Don't take my word for it. do it.

No thanks, it aint relevant to what is actually being discussed.

== 13 of 14 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 6:01 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

just joe <don.gato@alaska.com> wrote:
>>>> They end up close enough to sterile due to the manufacturing
>>>> process.
>>
>>> There is no such thing as "close enough to sterile". Sterility is an
>>> absolute.
>>
>> Wrong, as always. A freshly manufactured glass bottle is close
>> enough to sterile just because of the process used to make it.
>>
>>> Granted, the vessels will be, in all probability, very clean but
>>> that is the best that can be claimed.
>>
>> Same thing, different words.

> uh, rod buddy, words mean something.

And in that particular case, they mean essentially the same thing.

> sterile will never mean close enough to sterile.

And close enough to sterile has a different meaning to sterile.

> different words mean different things.

And in that particular case, they mean essentially the same thing.

> amazon.com has some good deals on dictionaries.

Only a fool bothers with that sort of dinosaur technology when there are so many online.

== 14 of 14 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 6:06 pm
From: "Daniel T."

"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:
> Daniel T. <daniel_t@earthlink.net> wrote:

> > As I understand it, the garlic and other herbs put in the
> > dressing may have botulism spores on them, the oil provides the
> > environment for the botulism to grow. The vinegar doesn't stop
> > the growth because it separates too easily from the mix.
>
> Doesnt explain why the ready to use stuff keeps fine unrefrigerated
> but you need to refrigerate it once its been opened.

Commercial salad dressings and acidified sauces are
microbiologically safe. Manufacturers follow strict quality
controls and diligently comply with FDA-mandated Good
Manufacturing Practices in production of these commercial
products. Commercial salad dressing and sauce products are also
made with pasteurized eggs that are free of Salmonella and other
pathogenic bacteria and further ensure the safety of these
products. As such, these commercial products do not have the food
safety risks associated with their homemade counterparts, which
contain unpasteurized eggs. Homemade versions also may not
contain sufficient quantities of food acids like vinegar (acetic
acid) or lemon juice (citric acid) to kill harmful
microorganisms.
(http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~mow/chap1sal.html)

==============================================================================
TOPIC: FREE 2008 Prayer Calendar from Billy Graham
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/3ac1a91515f50d34?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 3:37 pm
From: eHDMI

FREE 2008 Prayer Calendar from Billy Graham
http://www.freebiespl.us/?p=177

Yah! Stay up to date with this nice FREE calendar! God Bless

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 3:48 pm
From: Thanatos

In article <4713bc2b$0$28845$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>,
"Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:

> "Thanatos" <atropos@mac.com> wrote in message
> news:atropos-6907A0.21372114102007@news.giganews.com...
> > In article <47129667$0$15370$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>,
> > "Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:
> >
> >> "Thanatos" <atropos@mac.com> wrote in message
> >> news:atropos-E4164D.15112014102007@news.giganews.com...
> >> > In article <47125a29$0$4988$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>,
> >> > "Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> "Thanatos" <atropos@mac.com> wrote in message
> >> >> news:atropos-D73048.19062613102007@news.giganews.com...
> >> >> > In article <5ncm9aFhpimdU1@mid.individual.net>,
> >> >> > "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> Rick <videojockey1a@yahoo.comzzzz> wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > Build the Fence!
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> They'd just do an end run around it, like the Cubans do.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > The reason it works for the Cubans is that once they make it to U.S.
> >> >> > soil, the law says they get to stay.
> >> >>
> >> >> Jumping ahead of the line when they do that?
> >> >
> >> > I don't know if they get to become citizens or not. But they get to
> >> > stay
> >> > here as foreign residents at a minimum.
> >>
> >> And what is the difference between Cubans "jumping ahead of the line" and
> >> those illegals who are in this country already, "jumping ahead of the
> >> line"?
> >
> > Nothing as far as I'm concerned. But there is the fact that one is
> > illegal and the other is not...
>
> the only important fact is, it is our government who decides who is legal
> and who is illegal. So, it is our government who can decide to turn what is
> otherwise considered illegal to be legal.

But they have to do it according to established law. They can't
(legally) just pass a law declaring something to be illegal and then
ignore it.

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 5:14 pm
From: "Bob F"

"Jeff" <dont_bug_me@all.uk> wrote in message
news:13h6lqsevkqgf93@corp.supernews.com...
> Shadowland wrote:
>
>> If you find that your refrigerator is say usually only half full,
>> place containers of water into the empty areas.
>> Once that water cools, it acts like a cold sink. When you open the
>> refrig door, all the cool air gets out and the all the new air must be
>> cooled again.
>> With containers of water filling up empty space...that just means
>> there's less air that needs to be cooled.
>> That water keeps the coolness much better than the air.
>>
>> With a filled refrig you'll find your frig saving energy.
>
> I think this is an urban myth. Anyone ever do a actual research on this?
>
> Water has a very high specific heat and it will take a lot of energy to
> remove the BTUs of heat. If you never put in the water jugs you'd never have
> to remove their heat. Air on the other hand has a really low specific heat per
> cubic foot (and so would those plastic peanuts that have been mentioned).
>
> What the water does is store thermal energy and even out any temperature
> swings. But it has to be cooled itself and that is power that you never would
> have spent if you hadn't put it in! And that power drain is not just initial,
> but continuous. I think a better question is just how much less electricity
> will an empty fridge use than a full one. Any one with a "kill a watt" want to
> give that a try? I think the losses of door openings are more of length of
> time than number of openings. Just like you shouldn't leave your front door
> open on a cold day, you shouldn't leave your fridge door open while you are
> thinking.

If your fridge is empty, you will obviously save energy, as you will have no
reason to open the door.

I suppose that jugs of water could increase efficiency by lengthening the cycle
time. Has anyone ever done tests on this?

Bob

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 5:14 pm
From: "lee h"

Shadowland wrote:
> Instead of buying "Chaplips" lip gloss...stick your finger in your
> ear. Ear wax is an excellent
> lip gloss substitution.

Remind me not to ask you for cheap *fudge* flavoring. ;-)

lee

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Google Groups: http://groups.google.com?hl=en

25 new messages in 11 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 11:24 am
From: "Rod Speed"

Phred <ppnerkDELETETHIS@yahoo.com> wrote:
> In article <c%AQi.6197$lE2.1930@newssvr22.news.prodigy.net>, Jeanette
> Guire <jeanetteguire@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> Neither olive oil nor vinnegar need to be refrigerated; yet when
>> mixed (as in home-made salad dressing), the recipes all ask for it
>> to be refrigerated (where it congeals to a gooey mess).
>>
>> What is different about olive oil + vinnegar + a few spices & salt
>> from a microbial culture standpoint?
>>
>> Why must I refrigerate a mix of that which doesn't itself need to be
>> refrigerated?
>
> I noted various responses to this thread, but my opinion is that it's
> the *spices* that will most likely cause a potential problem by
> introducing a suite of chemicals that microbes will find useful for
> growth. (As well as probably introducing a nice selection of
> bacterial spores to start the rot, so to speak. :-)

Doesnt explain why the ready to use stuff with the spices already in it keeps
fine until its opened and needs to be refrigerated once its been opened.

> Also, as others mentioned, bugs that may be able to metabolise
> pure olive oil probably require some moisture present to do their
> thing, and that would be provided by the vinegar.

See above.

> Further, if the pH of the final brew is higher than the magic figure
> (4.6?) then some common nasties will be able to grow in it.

See above.

== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 11:26 am
From: "Rod Speed"

Daniel T. <daniel_t@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Jeanette Guire <jeanetteguire@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> Neither olive oil nor vinnegar need to be refrigerated; yet when
>> mixed (as in home-made salad dressing), the recipes all ask for it
>> to be refrigerated (where it congeals to a gooey mess).
>>
>> What is different about olive oil + vinnegar + a few spices & salt
>> from a microbial culture standpoint?
>>
>> Why must I refrigerate a mix of that which doesn't itself need to be
>> refrigerated?
>
> As I understand it, the garlic and other herbs put in the dressing may
> have botulism spores on them, the oil provides the environment for the
> botulism to grow. The vinegar doesn't stop the growth because it
> separates too easily from the mix.

Doesnt explain why the ready to use stuff keeps fine unrefrigerated
but you need to refrigerate it once its been opened.

> You may be able to avoid refrigeration if you
> first infuse the herbs and garlic in pure vinegar.

You're unlikely to be able to do that in a sterile situation without a lot of trouble.

> However I think the likelihood of spoilage is greater if you do this.

Corse it is.

> (It may not be toxic, but it will taste bad.)

== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 1:11 pm
From: E Z Peaces

Jeanette Guire wrote:
> Neither olive oil nor vinnegar need to be refrigerated; yet when mixed (as
> in home-made salad dressing), the recipes all ask for it to be refrigerated
> (where it congeals to a gooey mess).
>
> What is different about olive oil + vinnegar + a few spices & salt from a
> microbial culture standpoint?
>
> Why must I refrigerate a mix of that which doesn't itself need to be
> refrigerated?

Cheap olive oil goes rancid faster than good oil because cheap oil is
more acidic. Also, if you keep your olive oil refrigerated, you may get
condensation in the oil when you have the cold bottle out and open.
Moisture may soon spoil the flavor.

So when you add vinegar and water, the oil will deteriorate faster.
Each time you shake it, you mix air into it.

== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 1:18 pm
From: "John Weiss"

"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote...
>>>>>> Why must I refrigerate a mix of that which
>>>>>> doesn't itself need to be refrigerated?
>>>
>>>>> Essentially because the mixing will normally end up contaminating
>>>>> the mixture, if only because the container wont be sterile.
>>>
>>>> They technically weren't sterile beforehand either.
>>>
>>> The containers they came in were near enough.
>
>> Not nearly...clean is a far cry from "sterile"
>
> They're pretty close to sterile in practice.

Nope. Once the containers are opened, they are no longer sterile. After
being used many times and opened & closed repeatedly, they are no longer
sterile. The container used for the mixture may be as clean or cleaner
than the bottles of oil & vinegar.

FWIW, many restaurants keep salad dressings in unrefrigerated containers.
If you use them up in a reasonable time (a few days) there is no need to
refrigerate them.

OTOH, repeated shaking of the mixture will aerate it, and possibly
accelerate the oxidation of the olive oil, which will change its taste and
aroma. Refrigeration may help delay that oxidation.

== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 2:00 pm
From: "OhioGuy"

Perhaps if you mix it up enough, the acetic acid in the vinegar denatures
some of the oil. The resulting mixture may be less acidic, and therefore
easier for microbes to grow in. Plus, as some have mentioned, the act of
pouring both ingredients into a mixing container probably contaminates it
with at least a few microbes anyway.

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 11:36 am
From: Cindy Hamilton

On Oct 13, 5:11 pm, Shadowland <saints2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> When you buy far flung produce you encourage long distance shipping.
> Let save all that fuel and buy local. Spending locally help your
> local economy also.

What the hell are we supposed to eat when the ground is frozen solid
for months on end?

Get a grip.

Cindy Hamilton

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Dollars Stores and Liquid Soap
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/f0bed274e0c47e99?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 12:08 pm
From: "Evelyn C. Leeper"

A Veteran wrote:
> In article <slrnfh51nb.os0.don@manx.misty.com>,
>> Also, dollar stores are now the main place to get "heavy duty"
>> batteries. The battery technology that has that name got its name when it
>> was an improvement over an even weaker and more obsolete battery
>> technology. "Heavy Duty" batteries are now cheap lightweights that
>> underperform alkalines, and alkalines are the usual now.
>
> our local hardware store has 'em for $.75

Remember when Radio Shack had its "Battery Club"?

--
Evelyn C. Leeper
He who knows only his own side of the case
knows little of that. -John Stuart Mill

== 1 of 7 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 12:14 pm
From: "Jerry Okamura"

"Thanatos" <atropos@mac.com> wrote in message
news:atropos-6907A0.21372114102007@news.giganews.com...
> In article <47129667$0$15370$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>,
> "Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:
>
>> "Thanatos" <atropos@mac.com> wrote in message
>> news:atropos-E4164D.15112014102007@news.giganews.com...
>> > In article <47125a29$0$4988$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>,
>> > "Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> "Thanatos" <atropos@mac.com> wrote in message
>> >> news:atropos-D73048.19062613102007@news.giganews.com...
>> >> > In article <5ncm9aFhpimdU1@mid.individual.net>,
>> >> > "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> Rick <videojockey1a@yahoo.comzzzz> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> > Build the Fence!
>> >> >>
>> >> >> They'd just do an end run around it, like the Cubans do.
>> >> >
>> >> > The reason it works for the Cubans is that once they make it to U.S.
>> >> > soil, the law says they get to stay.
>> >>
>> >> Jumping ahead of the line when they do that?
>> >
>> > I don't know if they get to become citizens or not. But they get to
>> > stay
>> > here as foreign residents at a minimum.
>>
>> And what is the difference between Cubans "jumping ahead of the line" and
>> those illegals who are in this country already, "jumping ahead of the
>> line"?
>
> Nothing as far as I'm concerned. But there is the fact that one is
> illegal and the other is not...

the only important fact is, it is our government who decides who is legal
and who is illegal. So, it is our government who can decide to turn what is
otherwise considered illegal to be legal.

== 2 of 7 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 12:15 pm
From: "Jerry Okamura"

"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:5ngj7lFi1sduU1@mid.individual.net...
> Rick <videojockey1a@yahoo.comzzzz> wrote:
>> "Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in message
>> news:47129667$0$15370$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>>>
>>> "Thanatos" <atropos@mac.com> wrote in message
>>> news:atropos-E4164D.15112014102007@news.giganews.com...
>>>> In article <47125a29$0$4988$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>,
>>>> "Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> "Thanatos" <atropos@mac.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:atropos-D73048.19062613102007@news.giganews.com...
>>>>>> In article <5ncm9aFhpimdU1@mid.individual.net>,
>>>>>> "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Rick <videojockey1a@yahoo.comzzzz> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Build the Fence!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> They'd just do an end run around it, like the Cubans do.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The reason it works for the Cubans is that once they make it to
>>>>>> U.S. soil, the law says they get to stay.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jumping ahead of the line when they do that?
>>>>
>>>> I don't know if they get to become citizens or not. But they get to
>>>> stay here as foreign residents at a minimum.
>>>
>>> And what is the difference between Cubans "jumping ahead of the
>>> line" and those illegals who are in this country already, "jumping
>>> ahead of the line"?
>
>> It's part of a program President Kennedy or Johnson put in place for the
>> bang up job they did in the Bay of Pigs.
>
> No it isnt, it preceeded that.

What preceded that?

== 3 of 7 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 12:18 pm
From: "Jerry Okamura"

"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:5nfk08Fhnqo7U1@mid.individual.net...
> Jerry Okamura <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote
>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>> Jerry Okamura <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote
>>>> Rod Speed <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote
>
>>>>>> But any market reform in Mexico would be better than what they have
>>>>>> now.
>
>>>>> Wouldnt fix the problem. NAFTA had no effect on the number of
>>>>> illegals.
>
>>>> First of all the comment was "any market reform in Mexico...", it did
>>>> not even mention NAFTA.
>
>>> Its a similar economic change.
>
>> Why is it "similar"?
>
> Because its another way of getting economic change.

Ageed
>
>>>> Second, while it is true that NAFTA will not fix the problem (it is not
>>>> intended to fix the problem), are you going to argue that it won't
>>>> "help"?
>
>>> Nope, that while it may well help the economic situation in Mexico,
>>> that wont have any effect on the number that still decide that their
>>> prospects are much better in the US than back in Mexico.

Agreed again, but it helps....
>
>> Huh? Does it provide jobs for some in Mexico that they would not
>> otherwise have,
>
> Thats arguable given that china manages fine without that.

huh?
>
>> and doesn't that provide them with the incentive not to enter this
>> country illegally?
>
> Nope, because work in those operations that do benefit from NAFTA still
> provides them with much worse living standards than moving to the US does.
>
so? Does it or does it not convince some that they prefer to stay in Mexico
rather than enter this country illegally?

== 4 of 7 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 12:22 pm
From: "Jerry Okamura"

"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:5nfk6qFhutn1U1@mid.individual.net...
> Jerry Okamura <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote
>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>> Jerry Okamura <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote
>>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>>>> Jerry Okamura <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote
>
>>>>>>>> But where is the fence?
>>>>>>>> It works in Israel.
>
>>>>>>> And wouldnt work with Mexico.
>
>>>>>> why son't it work?
>
>>>>> Because its so easy to do an end run around it.
>
>>>> Going around it means you have to go over water to enter the United
>>>> States.
>
>>> And clearly plenty are prepared to do that, most obviously with the
>>> Cubans.
>
>>>> Which is easier, walking across land, or entering the United States
>>>> over water?
>
>>> Easier is irrelevant if they will use the harder route if they have to.
>
>>>>>>> There's already much better than a fence with Cuba
>>>>>>> and there are hordes of Cubans in the country anyway.
>
>>>>>> A couple of thoughts on Cuba. First, even though it is much more
>>>>>> difficult for them to come, they do keep coming.
>
>>>>> And even with a perfect fence between the US and
>>>>> Mexico, so would the Mexicans and other south americans
>>>>> that currently move over where the fence would be.
>
>>>> Which means you cannot stop people from doing what they want to do?
>
>>> No, that you can stop some, but not all of them.
>
>>>> That there is no real solution to the problem, by playing defense?
>
>>> That there is no real solution to the problem regardless,
>>> while ever so many realise that their prospects are so
>>> much better in the US than where they are coming from.
>
>> Of course there is a solution. People flee the country of their birth to
>> seek a better life somewhere else. The solution is to have a government
>> in their country that adopts the right policy, that eliminates the
>> causes.
>
> Pity you cant even point to any equivalent country with a
> birth rate that Mexico has that has ever managed to do that.

It is not the birthrate that is the problem, it is the fact that their
government has not adopted polices to help these who live in their country
to live a reasonably good life. If the birth rate is high, then they just
have to adopt policies that can accomodate that higher birth rate.
>
> Even eliminating the birth rate problem as china has done, STILL sees
> a situation where hordes of chinese would move to the US if they were
> allowed to, because the living standards are so much better in the US.
>

Which tells you that ultimately it depends on having the right politcy.

== 5 of 7 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 1:17 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

Jerry Okamura <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>> Jerry Okamura <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote
>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>>> Jerry Okamura <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote
>>>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>>>>> Jerry Okamura <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote

>>>>>>>>> But where is the fence?
>>>>>>>>> It works in Israel.

>>>>>>>> And wouldnt work with Mexico.

>>>>>>> why son't it work?

>>>>>> Because its so easy to do an end run around it.

>>>>> Going around it means you have to go over water to enter the United States.

>>>> And clearly plenty are prepared to do that, most obviously with the Cubans.

>>>>> Which is easier, walking across land, or entering the United States over water?

>>>> Easier is irrelevant if they will use the harder route if they have to.

>>>>>>>> There's already much better than a fence with Cuba
>>>>>>>> and there are hordes of Cubans in the country anyway.

>>>>>>> A couple of thoughts on Cuba. First, even though it is much
>>>>>>> more difficult for them to come, they do keep coming.

>>>>>> And even with a perfect fence between the US and
>>>>>> Mexico, so would the Mexicans and other south americans
>>>>>> that currently move over where the fence would be.

>>>>> Which means you cannot stop people from doing what they want to do?

>>>> No, that you can stop some, but not all of them.

>>>>> That there is no real solution to the problem, by playing defense?

>>>> That there is no real solution to the problem regardless,
>>>> while ever so many realise that their prospects are so
>>>> much better in the US than where they are coming from.

>>> Of course there is a solution. People flee the country of their
>>> birth to seek a better life somewhere else. The solution is to
>>> have a government in their country that adopts the right policy,
>>> that eliminates the causes.

>> Pity you cant even point to any equivalent country with a
>> birth rate that Mexico has that has ever managed to do that.

> It is not the birthrate that is the problem,

Corse it is.

> it is the fact that their government has not adopted polices to help these who live in their country to live a
> reasonably good life.

Not even possible with the birth rate they have.

You cant list even a single country thats got a birth rate that high that has
worked out how to produce decent living standards. It isnt even possible.

> If the birth rate is high, then they just have to adopt policies that can accomodate that higher birth rate.

No such animal.

You cant list even a single country thats got a birth rate that high that has
worked out how to produce decent living standards. It isnt even possible.

>> Even eliminating the birth rate problem as china has done, STILL sees
>> a situation where hordes of chinese would move to the US if they were
>> allowed to, because the living standards are so much better in the US.

> Which tells you that ultimately it depends on having the right politcy.

You cant list even a single country thats got a birth rate that high that has
worked out how to produce decent living standards. It isnt even possible.

== 6 of 7 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 1:18 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

>>>>>>> But any market reform in Mexico would be better than what they have now.

>>>>>> Wouldnt fix the problem. NAFTA had no effect on the number of illegals.

>>>>> First of all the comment was "any market reform in Mexico...", it did not even mention NAFTA.

>>>> Its a similar economic change.

>>> Why is it "similar"?

>> Because its another way of getting economic change.

> Ageed

>>>>> Second, while it is true that NAFTA will not fix the problem (it is not intended to fix the problem), are you
>>>>> going to argue that it won't "help"?

>>>> Nope, that while it may well help the economic situation in Mexico,
>>>> that wont have any effect on the number that still decide that
>>>> their prospects are much better in the US than back in Mexico.

> Agreed again, but it helps....

Not with what is being discussed, the number of illegals from Mexico.

>>> Huh? Does it provide jobs for some in Mexico that they would not otherwise have,

>> Thats arguable given that china manages fine without that.

> huh?

China doesnt have anything like NAFTA with the US and
has plenty of jobs in areas that export to the US anyway.

>>> and doesn't that provide them with the incentive not to enter this country illegally?

>> Nope, because work in those operations that do benefit from NAFTA still provides them with much worse living
>> standards than moving to the US does.

> so?

So your line about improving the economic situation in Mexico wont
actually have any effect on the number of illegals choosing to move
to the US, essentially because whatever is done in Mexico will STILL
see them with much worse living standards in mexico than in the US.

> Does it or does it not convince some that they prefer to stay in Mexico rather than enter this country illegally?

Nope, wont make any difference to that, essentially because
working conditions in mexico are so much worse than in the
US even if jobs are made available for them in mexico.

== 7 of 7 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 1:19 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

Jerry Okamura <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:
> "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:5ngj7lFi1sduU1@mid.individual.net...
>> Rick <videojockey1a@yahoo.comzzzz> wrote:
>>> "Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in message
>>> news:47129667$0$15370$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>>>>
>>>> "Thanatos" <atropos@mac.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:atropos-E4164D.15112014102007@news.giganews.com...
>>>>> In article <47125a29$0$4988$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>,
>>>>> "Jerry Okamura" <okamuraj005@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> "Thanatos" <atropos@mac.com> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:atropos-D73048.19062613102007@news.giganews.com...
>>>>>>> In article <5ncm9aFhpimdU1@mid.individual.net>,
>>>>>>> "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Rick <videojockey1a@yahoo.comzzzz> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Build the Fence!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> They'd just do an end run around it, like the Cubans do.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The reason it works for the Cubans is that once they make it to
>>>>>>> U.S. soil, the law says they get to stay.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jumping ahead of the line when they do that?
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't know if they get to become citizens or not. But they get
>>>>> to stay here as foreign residents at a minimum.
>>>>
>>>> And what is the difference between Cubans "jumping ahead of the
>>>> line" and those illegals who are in this country already, "jumping
>>>> ahead of the line"?
>>
>>> It's part of a program President Kennedy or Johnson put in place
>>> for the bang up job they did in the Bay of Pigs.
>>
>> No it isnt, it preceeded that.
>
> What preceded that?

That business about them being allowed to stay if
they made it to the US preceeded the Bay of Pigs.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Apples
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/408e635a462df7fd?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 12:18 pm
From: "Jon von Leipzig@mayday.com"

On Oct 9, 2:05 pm, "charleymccorm...@gmail.com"
<charleymccorm...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 2, 1:31 pm, PaPaPeng <PaPaP...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > On thisapplethingy, do give your theory on how China managed to grow
> > from nothing to its domination in so short a time. That's the OP's
> > question I tried to answer. He and I am certainly very interested in
> > another explanation.

>>The fact that China is developing newer methods to detect pesticides on apples
>>proves the point that they are in use...

Wonder if they're also developing (or copying?) ways to detect
pesticides inside the apples, too.

Systemics (absorbed thru leaves/roots) have been in use for years.
Years ago, Gerbers, to their credit, stopped buying apples
from suppliers who used a potentially harmful class of pesticides
(organophosphates, I think). Even after wasing, peeling, coring,
they still had hig levels of these critters, which were never tested
on children/infants.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 12:37 pm
From: "Jon von Leipzig@mayday.com"

On Oct 11, 5:14 pm, PaPaPeng <PaPaP...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 20:11:33 -0700, shinypenny
>
>
>
> <shinypenny0...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >On Oct 10, 11:09 am, PaPaPeng <PaPaP...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >> "I made 400 yuan when I planted corn and wheat," Mr. Wang said,
> >> recalling the time in the 1980's before he transformed his one-acre
> >> field into an apple orchard. "Now, I make 5,000 yuan. And in some
> >> years 10,000." (One yuan is worth about 12 cents.) In the best of
> >> times, some apple growers in Lining said they made 50,000 yuan.
>
> >Heh. Corn and wheat have long been subsidized by the U.S. gov't. We
> >could easily be accused of dumping our surplus for cheap on the rest
> >of the world.
>
> >So the chinese have learned to play our own game, but with fruit
> >instead of carbs. Good for them.
>
> >jen
>
>
> * Read "China's Boomtowns" in the June 2007 issue of National
> Geographic. Any entrepreuner with a successful idea, say making bra
> clips, has a good time only for a year or two. Very soon his
> neighbors and his former workers set up their own production
> facilities and compete with the pioneer. Whole towns become the
> global manufacturing center for metal bra clips, cigarette lighters,
> cheap watches, or what have you. The competition and growth is
> humongous. No government intervention or subsidy needed.

It seems in China there's no need to strain your brain. There's a
booming
business in making copies of other peeps ideas. Think NG mag also
did
a piece on "Copycat Boomtowns" in China??? There's dozens of towns,
even a few provinces specializing in mfging fake goods.For years,
Wenzhou was
noted for copying P&G products. Then there's Kaihua, the "Phillips"
light bulb town.
The entire province of Henan was at one time, the capital of fakery.

If I could, I'd require the US gubmint or buyers of apple concentrate
from China to test a high pct upon arrival.

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 12:30 pm
From: Shadowland

Instead of buying "Chaplips" lip gloss...stick your finger in your
ear. Ear wax is an excellent
lip gloss substitution.

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 12:35 pm
From: "OhioGuy"

I'm planning on getting my wife a box of malted milk balls - her
favorite - and writing a poem for her. The day is about showing you
remembered and that you appreciate the person with a small gift (usually
edible), not about trying to get huge or expensive gifts.

Just wondering what everyone else is planning on doing to show their
appreciation for their significant other on Sweetest Day this year?
Something sweet, I hope!

http://www.theromantic.com/sweetestday.htm

http://www.theholidayspot.com/sweetest_day/

Sweetest Day is Saturday, October 20 this year

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 12:36 pm
From: "OhioGuy"

Just wondering what everyone else is planning on doing to show their
appreciation for their significant other on Sweetest Day this year?
Something sweet, I hope!

http://www.theromantic.com/sweetestday.htm

http://www.theholidayspot.com/sweetest_day/

Sweetest Day is Saturday, October 20 this year

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 1:20 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

To ignore what is just another stupid con job.

OhioGuy <none@none.net> wrote:
> I'm planning on getting my wife a box of malted milk balls - her
> favorite - and writing a poem for her. The day is about showing you
> remembered and that you appreciate the person with a small gift
> (usually edible), not about trying to get huge or expensive gifts.
>
> Just wondering what everyone else is planning on doing to show their
> appreciation for their significant other on Sweetest Day this year?
> Something sweet, I hope!
>
>
> http://www.theromantic.com/sweetestday.htm
>
> http://www.theholidayspot.com/sweetest_day/
>
> Sweetest Day is Saturday, October 20 this year

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 1:55 pm
From: "OhioGuy"

>To ignore what is just another stupid con job.

How so? I spoke to my Grandfather, and he says most folks around here
have celebrated it since he was a kid. (and he's 84)

It is also on our wall calendar.

Why would you consider an opportunity to show your appreciation to someone
you love (at little cost, I might add) to be a con job?

50 years ago, Sweetest Day was mostly celebrated in the Midwest. However,
as jobs moved, the Interstates were built, and people started becoming more
mobile, they took their local holidays with them, including Sweetest Day.

That is why Texas, California and Florida are now up in the top 10 as far
as # of people celebrating Sweetest Day. Just 10 years ago, it was still
all Midwest states.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Wholesale Jordans
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/781db823857a9922?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 1:27 pm
From: polly.ch@hotmail.com

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air dunks,Nike shox,
Nike Air max tn plus,Nike air max Nike air rift.we can offer you with
high quality products at a competitive price.
elcome to vist our website htttp://www.nikekickcoo.com
E-mail:linda.ch26@hotmail.com
yahoo massege:linda10226@yahoo.com.cn
Welcome to hongfeng trade co.,ltd!We Wholesale many various famous
brands of sport shoes,bags,clothes and so on !
We Wholesale Nike Sneakers,Jordan,adidas,puma.bape nike air force 1s
Sneakers
Wholesale Handbags Sneakers,Wholesale Purses,Wholesale Sandals,nike
air dunks,Nike shox,
Nike Air max tn plus,Nike air max Nike air rift.we can offer you with
high quality products at a competitive price.
elcome to vist our website htttp://www.nikekickcoo.com
E-mail:linda.ch26@hotmail.com
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==============================================================================
TOPIC: we accept paypal Wholesale nike air jordans adidas puma bape,from www.
freshnesskicks.com,China
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/4c172e620ff9cc9c?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 1:27 pm
From: polly.ch@hotmail.com

==============================================================================
TOPIC: 07 new A&F coat ,new bape jeans,hoody
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/7a014527b1299979?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 1:31 pm
From: polly.ch@hotmail.com

Dear sir or madam,
we accept paypal We are the one of the biggest suppliers in China for
shoes and
clothing our website:1.http://www.nikekickcoo.com MSN&E-
mail:linda.ch26@hotmail.com and linda10226@yahoo.com &We sell all
kinds of brand shoes,as belows,
&Nike:Shox(TN,TL,NZ,oz,R3,R4,Turbo,Ride)//max James(1-4)//Dunk//
Kobe//
Jordan(1-22)//Airforce1//&Adidas:TMC//Coloradidas//Goodyear&Puma///
Gucci///Prade///Timberland///Bapestar/// &&We also sell brand
clothes,
Welcome to hongfeng trade co.,ltd!We Wholesale many various famous
brands of sport shoes,bags,clothes and so on !
We Wholesale Nike Sneakers,Jordan,adidas,puma.bape nike air force 1s
Sneakers
Wholesale Handbags Sneakers,Wholesale Purses,Wholesale Sandals,nike
air dunks,Nike shox,
Nike Air max tn plus,Nike air max Nike air rift.we can offer you with
high quality products at a competitive price.
elcome to vist our website htttp://www.nikekickcoo.com
E-mail:linda.ch26@hotmail.com
yahoo massege:linda10226@yahoo.com.cn

==============================================================================
TOPIC: we accept paypal Wholesale nike air jordans adidas puma bape,from www.
nikekickcoo.com,China
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/3baa8c18a382d4cb?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 15 2007 1:31 pm
From: polly.ch@hotmail.com

Welcome to hongfeng trade co.,ltd!We Wholesale many various famous
brands of sport shoes,bags,clothes and so on !
We Wholesale Nike Sneakers,Jordan,adidas,puma.bape nike air force 1s
Sneakers
Wholesale Handbags Sneakers,Wholesale Purses,Wholesale Sandals,nike
air dunks,Nike shox,
Nike Air max tn plus,Nike air max Nike air rift.we can offer you with
high quality products at a competitive price.
elcome to vist our website htttp://www.nikekickcoo.com
E-mail:linda.ch26@hotmail.com
yahoo massege:linda10226@yahoo.com.cn
Dear sir or madam,
we accept paypal We are the one of the biggest suppliers in China for
shoes and
clothing our website:1.http://www.nikekickcoo.com MSN&E-
mail:linda.ch26@hotmail.com and linda10226@yahoo.com &We sell all
kinds of brand shoes,as belows,
&Nike:Shox(TN,TL,NZ,oz,R3,R4,Turbo,Ride)//max James(1-4)//Dunk//
Kobe//
Jordan(1-22)//Airforce1//&Adidas:TMC//Coloradidas//Goodyear&Puma///
Gucci///Prade///Timberland///Bapestar/// &&We also sell brand clothes,

==============================================================================

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