http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en
misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com
Today's topics:
* In fact, it really does look as if the foundations of US capitalism have
shattered. The World As We Know It Is Going Down - 8 messages, 8 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/88a58a209e9d86e2?hl=en
* Palin splurgin' on $2,500 silk jackets and other high fashion - 6 messages,
3 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/968a95c4d776c842?hl=en
* Surviving a bear attack - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/6fc0d7e660741dbe?hl=en
* Frugal HDTV (Pocket LCD 1" BW?) - 4 messages, 3 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/2779d19f66d2bd16?hl=en
* Blast from the (recent) past: Bonuses at Wall Street Big Five Surge to $36
Billion - 2 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/c50a29dd80450846?hl=en
* Not getting ripped off - 2 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/a0ffb65c7fe90216?hl=en
* Video - Banking: The Swindle - "That's why I quit paying my credit cards.
Fuck em if they can't take a joke" - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/8aa4bfee504165cf?hl=en
* brot selber backen rezepte käse rezept brotsorten aus gemüse rezepte brot
backen im brotbackautomat - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/a91037e87ca908ec?hl=en
==============================================================================
TOPIC: In fact, it really does look as if the foundations of US capitalism
have shattered. The World As We Know It Is Going Down
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/88a58a209e9d86e2?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 8 ==
Date: Fri, Sep 19 2008 10:31 am
From: "John R. Carroll"
Bill Smith wrote:
> On Fri, 19 Sep 2008 09:49:53 -0700, "John R. Carroll"
> <jcarroll@ubu,machiningsolution.com> wrote:
>
>> Bill Smith wrote:
>>> On Thu, 18 Sep 2008 20:58:39 -0700, Curly Surmudgeon
>>> <curlysurmudgeon@live.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, 18 Sep 2008 20:06:39 -0700, Bill Smith wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, 18 Sep 2008 19:43:48 -0700, Curly Surmudgeon
>>>>> <curlysurmudgeon@live.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, 19 Sep 2008 02:07:41 +0000, Morton Davis wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "St Georges Day April 23rd" <bbbbbdfgdfgdgddfg@googlemail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote in message
>>>>>>>
>> news:e2e9183e-0095-46af-bd8f-a191288c1cbd@8g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Over 97%of mortgages are being paid. Over 95% of banks are
>>>>>>> sound. Over 94% of American workers are employed. This is a
>>>>>>> bump. We'll get over it. The markets are rebounding, oil is
>>>>>>> down. Were it not for Ike my area would be knocking on $3 a
>>>>>>> gallon for regular gas.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sell your gloom and doom elsewhere.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sell your denials elsewhere.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Trends are all in the wrong direction and the economic disasters
>>>>>> brought upon us by the Bush Administration are rapidly spiraling
>>>>>> downward with no end in sight.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> You'd advise a panic then? That'll be useful.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bill Smith
>>>>
>>>> Sarcasm not withstanding, where did I say such a thing, or did
>>>> voices in your head tell you that? You sound like the trolls in
>>>> another newsgroup who project their fantasies on anyone who doesn't
>>>> agree with their reality bubble.
>>>
>>>
>>> You can blame Bush if you like, and he certainly has contributed to
>>> it, but the deregulation began with the Clinton Administration
>>
>> Nope, it was Reagan.
>
> I stand corrected. Thank you.
You really have to go back even farther if you want to get to the academic
roots of current Republican economic underpinning.
About 1970 and the third Chicago Shool.
http://cepa.newschool.edu/het/schools/chicago.htm
--
John R. Carroll
www.machiningsolution.com
== 2 of 8 ==
Date: Fri, Sep 19 2008 10:36 am
From: George
Dennis wrote:
> On Fri, 19 Sep 2008 03:28:21 -0400, Jeff <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote:
>
>> And as financial giants fall, the leader of the free world watches from
>> the sidelines ready to give a cheer and an atta boy when the hometown
>> crowd needs it.
>
> And the US Congress, who actually made all the rules that got us into
> this, adjourns and slinks home, ducking and muttering "Not our
> fault!".
>
>
> Dennis (evil)
> --
> What government gives, it must first take away.
Exactly, all of the talking heads love to declare it was Bush's fault,
Clinton's fault or maybe Rutherford B. Hayes' fault but Congress writes
the legislation and spends our money. It was interesting to see how
"both sides" "came together" to bail out their contributors and friends
to help the "average guy".
== 3 of 8 ==
Date: Fri, Sep 19 2008 11:39 am
From: hchickpea@hotmail.com
On Fri, 19 Sep 2008 10:03:24 -0700, Dennis <dgw80@hotmail.com> wrote:
>On Fri, 19 Sep 2008 03:28:21 -0400, Jeff <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote:
>
>>And as financial giants fall, the leader of the free world watches from
>>the sidelines ready to give a cheer and an atta boy when the hometown
>>crowd needs it.
>
>And the US Congress, who actually made all the rules that got us into
>this, adjourns and slinks home, ducking and muttering "Not our
>fault!".
>
>
>Dennis (evil)
What just occurred with the bailouts is that the government put the
comfort of the current crop of the wealthy ahead of the core values of
the country.
Libertarians have been crying for less government and greater personal
responsibility, and politicians have claimed to share those values.
The truth is now out. What this bailout shows is that government has
only been paying lip service to those concepts as well as what our
forefathers died for.
We now have a government endorsing corporate socialism, where the
elite are protected from womb to grave, while relegating the common
citizen to serfdom, paying off the bailouts. We should round up all
the people responsible for the mess, chain 'em together, toss 'em in
Galveston, put up a fence around the place, and let FEMA take care of
them for ten years. I'd even recommend putting Brownie back in charge
of that task.
== 4 of 8 ==
Date: Fri, Sep 19 2008 11:19 am
From: clams_casino
Felix D. wrote:
>
>
>All well and good until you try a little BushBash here. I'm always amused
>when people claim that Bush is somehow, some way, running the economy and is
>to blame when things go wrong.
>
>
>
>
You have a point. There has been nothing postive for which GW can
take any credit.
== 5 of 8 ==
Date: Fri, Sep 19 2008 12:44 pm
From: Jeff
Dennis wrote:
> On Fri, 19 Sep 2008 03:28:21 -0400, Jeff <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote:
>
>> And as financial giants fall, the leader of the free world watches from
>> the sidelines ready to give a cheer and an atta boy when the hometown
>> crowd needs it.
>
> And the US Congress, who actually made all the rules that got us into
> this, adjourns and slinks home, ducking and muttering "Not our
> fault!".
You've missed a couple of points.
Congress is not responsible for administering and executing the laws.
You've got an administration that has been doing everything it could to
do exactly what it wants. That goes from reinterpreting rules and
regulations, to signing statements to just plain foot dragging and
gutting government entities.
For example:
http://www.senate.gov/~gov_affairs/envrollbacksreport.pdf
On January 20, 2001, the crowd that was gathered at the Capitol for
President Bush's
Inauguration had barely dispersed when the President's Chief of Staff
Andrew Card took one of
the most far-reaching and significant steps of the administration's
early days: he issued a
directive to all Federal agency heads to immediately freeze the Federal
regulatory process in its
tracks. Although couched in terms more familiar to the bureaucracy than
the citizenry, the so called
Card memo had the potential to diminish the health and safety of tens of
millions of
Americans.
The second point you've missed is that it is the administration that
sets the agenda, and an intransigent president that does only what he
wants. It's all perfectly opaque and in some respects criminal.
Now, if you feel that the president has little to do in setting the
direction of the country, I suggest that you just don't cast a vote for
that office. Myself, I think it's better to have someone running the
government that doesn't hate the government.
Jeff
>
>
> Dennis (evil)
> --
> What government gives, it must first take away.
== 6 of 8 ==
Date: Fri, Sep 19 2008 12:55 pm
From: "Rod Speed"
Bill Smith <quandary@newsguy.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Sep 2008 20:58:39 -0700, Curly Surmudgeon
> <curlysurmudgeon@live.com> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 18 Sep 2008 20:06:39 -0700, Bill Smith wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 18 Sep 2008 19:43:48 -0700, Curly Surmudgeon
>>> <curlysurmudgeon@live.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Fri, 19 Sep 2008 02:07:41 +0000, Morton Davis wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> "St Georges Day April 23rd" <bbbbbdfgdfgdgddfg@googlemail.com>
>>>>> wrote in message
>>>>> news:e2e9183e-0095-46af-bd8f-a191288c1cbd@8g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>>>>>
>>>>> Over 97%of mortgages are being paid. Over 95% of banks are sound.
>>>>> Over 94% of American workers are employed. This is a bump. We'll
>>>>> get over it. The markets are rebounding, oil is down. Were it not
>>>>> for Ike my area would be knocking on $3 a gallon for regular gas.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sell your gloom and doom elsewhere.
>>>>
>>>> Sell your denials elsewhere.
>>>>
>>>> Trends are all in the wrong direction and the economic disasters
>>>> brought upon us by the Bush Administration are rapidly spiraling
>>>> downward with no end in sight.
>>>
>>>
>>> You'd advise a panic then? That'll be useful.
>>>
>>> Bill Smith
>>
>> Sarcasm not withstanding, where did I say such a thing, or did
>> voices in your head tell you that? You sound like the trolls in
>> another newsgroup who project their fantasies on anyone who doesn't
>> agree with their reality bubble.
>
>
> You can blame Bush if you like, and he certainly has contributed to
> it, but the deregulation began with the Clinton Administration with
> his shameless pandering to the Republicans. Phrases like "Rapidly
> spiraling downward" sure looks like panic to me.
>
> Things like "financial meltdown" shouted often enough and loudly
> enough in the press, for example, tend to become self-fulfilling
> prophesies. This really isn't useful. Neither is ignoring reality,
> which doesn't appear to be the case. I'm not reading very much about
> what's solid in our economy, why is that? I'll tell you; it doesn't
> sell newspapers.
It stopped being about selling newspapers a hell of a long time ago now.
== 7 of 8 ==
Date: Fri, Sep 19 2008 1:07 pm
From: "John James"
hchickpea@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Fri, 19 Sep 2008 10:03:24 -0700, Dennis <dgw80@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 19 Sep 2008 03:28:21 -0400, Jeff <jeff@spam_me_not.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> And as financial giants fall, the leader of the free world watches
>>> from the sidelines ready to give a cheer and an atta boy when the
>>> hometown crowd needs it.
>>
>> And the US Congress, who actually made all the rules that got us into
>> this, adjourns and slinks home, ducking and muttering "Not our
>> fault!".
>>
>>
>> Dennis (evil)
>
> What just occurred with the bailouts is that the government put the
> comfort of the current crop of the wealthy ahead of the core values of
> the country.
Ahead of the economy tanking, actually.
> Libertarians have been crying for less government and greater personal
> responsibility, and politicians have claimed to share those values.
> The truth is now out. What this bailout shows is that government has
> only been paying lip service to those concepts as well as what our
> forefathers died for.
Those forefathers got to wear a whole series of depressions in the
century before 1929 when their approach to government was all the rage.
> We now have a government endorsing corporate socialism,
> where the elite are protected from womb to grave,
The owners of Bear Stearns, Fanny Mae, Freddy Mac, Lehmans might just disagree with that.
> while relegating the common
> citizen to serfdom, paying off the bailouts. We should round up all
> the people responsible for the mess, chain 'em together, toss 'em in
> Galveston, put up a fence around the place, and let FEMA take care of
> them for ten years. I'd even recommend putting Brownie back in charge
> of that task.
You could always return to lynch mobs.
== 8 of 8 ==
Date: Fri, Sep 19 2008 1:36 pm
From: Curly Surmudgeon
On Fri, 19 Sep 2008 09:51:48 -0700, Bill Smith wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Sep 2008 20:58:39 -0700, Curly Surmudgeon
> <curlysurmudgeon@live.com> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 18 Sep 2008 20:06:39 -0700, Bill Smith wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 18 Sep 2008 19:43:48 -0700, Curly Surmudgeon
>>> <curlysurmudgeon@live.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Fri, 19 Sep 2008 02:07:41 +0000, Morton Davis wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> "St Georges Day April 23rd" <bbbbbdfgdfgdgddfg@googlemail.com> wrote
>>>>> in message
>>>>> news:e2e9183e-0095-46af-bd8f-a191288c1cbd@8g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>>>>>
>>>>> Over 97%of mortgages are being paid. Over 95% of banks are sound.
>>>>> Over 94% of American workers are employed. This is a bump. We'll get
>>>>> over it. The markets are rebounding, oil is down. Were it not for Ike
>>>>> my area would be knocking on $3 a gallon for regular gas.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sell your gloom and doom elsewhere.
>>>>
>>>>Sell your denials elsewhere.
>>>>
>>>>Trends are all in the wrong direction and the economic disasters
>>>>brought upon us by the Bush Administration are rapidly spiraling
>>>>downward with no end in sight.
>>>
>>>
>>> You'd advise a panic then? That'll be useful.
>>>
>>> Bill Smith
>>
>>Sarcasm not withstanding, where did I say such a thing, or did voices in
>>your head tell you that? You sound like the trolls in another newsgroup
>>who project their fantasies on anyone who doesn't agree with their
>>reality bubble.
>
>
> You can blame Bush if you like, and he certainly has contributed to it,
> but the deregulation began with the Clinton Administration with his
> shameless pandering to the Republicans. Phrases like "Rapidly spiraling
> downward" sure looks like panic to me.
>
> Things like "financial meltdown" shouted often enough and loudly enough in
> the press, for example, tend to become self-fulfilling prophesies. This
> really isn't useful. Neither is ignoring reality, which doesn't appear to
> be the case. I'm not reading very much about what's solid in our economy,
> why is that? I'll tell you; it doesn't sell newspapers.
>
> Bill Smith
Where did I "advise a panic?" You're moving the target without retracting
or substantiating your attack.
--
Regards, Curly
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bush, a Disaster of Biblical Proportions
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
................................................................
Posted via TITANnews - Uncensored Newsgroups Access
>>>> at http://www.TitanNews.com <<<<
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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Palin splurgin' on $2,500 silk jackets and other high fashion
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/968a95c4d776c842?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Sep 19 2008 10:34 am
From: Cindy Hamilton
On Sep 18, 1:51 pm, "Dano" <janeandd...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Cindy Hamilton wrote:
> > On Sep 18, 10:20 am, cake_and_eat_it_...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> >> Yeah, it seems like Sarah Palin, who professes to love her kids so
> >> much, could get her daughter Bristol into something other than blue
> >> jeans. That speaks volumes about "our soccer mom" and where her
> >> priorities are.
>
> > Bristol is a teenager. Is there any evidence that she doesn't want to
> > wear blue jeans? My mother could hardly crowbar me out of mine
> > and into a dress, and that was a long time ago when we had standards.
>
> Oh. So you're saying the Palins haver no standards.
No, I'm saying that dress codes in general have relaxed quite a bit
since
I was a girl. I'm always amazed when I see what people wear to church
nowadays.
> But then...I mean...it's not like a special event or anything...why dress
> up...just because mom buys that designer jacket. Besides...we don't
> know...those jeans might have cost a grand.
They might have.
Cindy Hamilton
== 2 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Sep 19 2008 10:35 am
From: Cindy Hamilton
On Sep 18, 3:03 pm, Anonymous <nob...@remailer.paranoici.org> wrote:
> In article <0c4a1f9b-6902-4a49-a319-
> 3e30c2bd8...@y38g2000hsy.googlegroups.com>
>
> Cindy Hamilton <angelicapagane...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Sep 18, 10:20 am, cake_and_eat_it_...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > > Yeah, it seems like Sarah Palin, who professes to love her kids so
> > > much, could get her daughter Bristol into something other than blue
> > > jeans. That speaks volumes about "our soccer mom" and where her
> > > priorities are.
>
> > Bristol is a teenager. Is there any evidence that she doesn't want to
> > wear blue jeans? My mother could hardly crowbar me out of mine
> > and into a dress, and that was a long time ago when we had standards.
>
> > Cindy Hamilton
>
> You can't reason with a liberal.
Ah, but I am a liberal. At least by your lights I probably am.
Cindy Hamilton
== 3 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Sep 19 2008 10:39 am
From: Cindy Hamilton
On Sep 19, 9:42 am, i_hate_gwb...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Sep 18, 1:35 pm, Cindy Hamilton <angelicapagane...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > On Sep 18, 10:20 am, cake_and_eat_it_...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > > Yeah, it seems like Sarah Palin, who professes to love her kids so
> > > much, could get her daughter Bristol into something other than blue
> > > jeans. That speaks volumes about "our soccer mom" and where her
> > > priorities are.
>
> > Bristol is a teenager. Is there any evidence that she doesn't want to
> > wear blue jeans? My mother could hardly crowbar me out of mine
> > and into a dress, and that was a long time ago when we had standards.
>
> > Cindy Hamilton
>
> Ummm... Cindy? You really think blue jeans were/are that good
> looking?
Depends on the girl. I know they didn't look that good on my fat
butt, but I was a tomboy and didn't care how I looked. I still don't
care very much, except that I be neat and clean and appropriately
dressed for the occasion. I spend most of my time in suits.
> And I guess by your reference to "when we had standards" that none of
> the 17 year old girls in your school were getting preggers,
> right: :)
I see by your smiley that you know the answer already: "Of course
they were."
In my day, however, pregnant girls were hustled out of sight, as if it
were
contagious or something.
Cindy Hamilton
== 4 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Sep 19 2008 10:42 am
From: Cindy Hamilton
On Sep 18, 5:24 pm, ayatollah obama
<osama.obabma.by.anyn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sep 18, 11:03 am, clams_casino <PeterGrif...@DrunkinClam.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > charliekilo wrote:
> > >"clams_casino" <PeterGrif...@DrunkinClam.com> wrote in message
> > >news:%kqAk.14740$Dj1.10810@newsfe01.iad...
>
> > >>ayatollah obama wrote:
>
> > >>>compared to what piglosi has run up in deficit for this
> > >>>year.
>
> > >>Bush and Cheney died? I missed that. When did she become president?
>
> > >Congress *spends* the money -- back to civics class for you!
>
> > Your point? It'll take more than 18 months (and a new president) to
> > reverse the trend set by the Bush policies.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> ??? wtf are you talking about??? spending money??? that could've
> occured on the first DemonCrap budget had piglosi wanted to??? other
> than that, Do you really think that Klinton kept any of Bush/Reagan,
> or that W kept any of klintons policies other than the ones we were
> bound to by treaty?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Are you aware that you make yourself look like a buffoon when you
mock and misspell people's names? One always assumes that such
a write has nothing of substance to say.
Cindy Hamilton
== 5 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Sep 19 2008 12:22 pm
From: alohacyberian
On Sep 19, 5:58 am, Dave U. Random <anonym...@anonymitaet-im-
inter.net> wrote:
> In article <3b190149-62cb-4b0e-be1f-
> 69fbde2e7...@b30g2000prf.googlegroups.com>
>
>
>
>
>
> alohacyberian <alohacyber...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > On Sep 18, 10:09 pm, jdoe <j...@aol.com> wrote:
> > > On Thu, 18 Sep 2008 12:05:04 -0230, clouddreamer
>
> > > <Climat...@nge.is.real> wrote:
> > > >If Palin pretends to represent the vast vast majority of soccer moms,
> > > >she's not doing well to be wearing something that could feed a family of
> > > >four for months.
>
> > > people need to stop getting so hung up the superficial, palin isn't an
> > > ordinary soccer mom anymore, she's running for national office and she
> > > is not preening anymore than any of the other candidates, find a more
> > > substantial issue to harp about ..
>
> > > __________________________________________
> > > Never argue with an idiot.
> > > They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
>
> > No she's the mother of a bastard, drug addict son, a high-school drop-
> > out whore and the lover of Brad Hanson.
>
> > Check out the stains on her blue suit.
>
> She has a lot in common with your mom, doesn't she?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
No. My mother is a virgin and I'm the second coming. Idiot.
My mother would never send the savior off to war.
== 6 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Sep 19 2008 1:13 pm
From: "Rod Speed"
Cindy Hamilton <angelicapaganelli@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Sep 18, 5:24 pm, ayatollah obama
> <osama.obabma.by.anyn...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sep 18, 11:03 am, clams_casino <PeterGrif...@DrunkinClam.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> charliekilo wrote:
>>>> "clams_casino" <PeterGrif...@DrunkinClam.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:%kqAk.14740$Dj1.10810@newsfe01.iad...
>>
>>>>> ayatollah obama wrote:
>>
>>>>>> compared to what piglosi has run up in deficit for this
>>>>>> year.
>>
>>>>> Bush and Cheney died? I missed that. When did she become
>>>>> president?
>>
>>>> Congress *spends* the money -- back to civics class for you!
>>
>>> Your point? It'll take more than 18 months (and a new president) to
>>> reverse the trend set by the Bush policies.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>>> - Show quoted text -
>>
>> ??? wtf are you talking about??? spending money??? that could've
>> occured on the first DemonCrap budget had piglosi wanted to??? other
>> than that, Do you really think that Klinton kept any of Bush/Reagan,
>> or that W kept any of klintons policies other than the ones we were
>> bound to by treaty?
> Are you aware that you make yourself look like a buffoon when you
> mock and misspell people's names? One always assumes that such
> a write has nothing of substance to say.
Silly assumption. Its just a style thing.
==============================================================================
TOPIC: Surviving a bear attack
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/6fc0d7e660741dbe?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Sep 19 2008 11:08 am
From: y_p_w
On Sep 19, 8:30 am, James <jl...@idirect.com> wrote:
> On Sep 14, 4:11 pm, "Ryan Robbins" <redbird...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > "James" <jl...@idirect.com> wrote in message
>
> >news:7d1443cf-5c90-441e-a666-cdfaf6508b89@p25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> > On Sep 12, 8:35 am, ultim...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > >The advice that these professionals give is this: fight. Your only
> > >chance is to convince the bear you are not worth the effort.
>
> > That won't work with a grizzly. In fact, it will likely get you killed.
>
> Are you suggesting that not fighting is preferable?
With a grizzly bear? In general the recommendations are to play dead
and cover the neck with a pack or hands. It may simply be playing the
odds. Grizzlies supposedly engage in far more defensive attacks than
predatory attacks on humans.
Grizzlies aren't afraid to fight. If they don't sense a need to
fight, they've been known to stop.
> > >The more dangerous bears are those who scavange campgrounds for food
> > >and become used to human presense. They lose their fear of humans, and
> > >if they are truly hungry can't be scared from a food source like a
> > >cooler.
>
> > Although this belief is widespread, the evidence is far from conclusive.
>
> Well feel free to speculate, I've tried to scare away a habituated
> bear, I've talked to people who do this for a living. The bear I
> couldn't scare away was killed, by park wardens, who had consulted
> with naturalists. Those same naturalists have stated that when the see
> wild black bears that have little contact with humans, they generally
> run. You are much more likely to see a bear at a dump or near a
> campsite than in the wild.
Like I said - they'll typically try pain aversion like rubber bullets
and bean bag launchers. Certainly not every bear is the same, and I
too have heard of ones that were no longer dissuaded from raiding food
with mere noise.
==============================================================================
TOPIC: Frugal HDTV (Pocket LCD 1" BW?)
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/2779d19f66d2bd16?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Sep 19 2008 11:40 am
From: "Dave"
"William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgeezer@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:YPidnUP8suXcCU7VnZ2dnUVZ_rXinZ2d@comcast.com...
> I believe I've seen USB HD tuners for around $50. It was just a few days
> ago, but I don't remember where.
>
Even if you could find one, it wouldn't be a good idea. USB will be slow
and quirky, if used for a HD TV tuner. -Dave
== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Sep 19 2008 11:41 am
From: "Dave"
"Pszemol" <Pszemol@PolBox.com> wrote in message
news:gavk5s.6pk.0@poczta.onet.pl...
> <vjp2.at@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com> wrote in message
> news:gav7rb$pkj$1@reader1.panix.com...
> > I watch TV half an hour a month and don't care much for it. I have
> > three pocket 1" BW LCD TVs and I'm looking for the cheapest way to get
> > HDTV after February. If I had to pay more than fifty bucks I would
> > forego TV altogether.
>
> $50 converter - $40 federal check ~= $10.
> https://www.dtv2009.gov/
>
I don't think that's a good solution. The converter will be about FOUR
TIMES the size of the TV. Plus, I've never seen a portable
onverter. -Dave
== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Sep 19 2008 12:51 pm
From: "Rod Speed"
Dave <noway@nohow.not> wrote
> William Sommerwerck <grizzledgeezer@comcast.net> wrote
>> I believe I've seen USB HD tuners for around $50.
>> It was just a few days ago, but I don't remember where.
> Even if you could find one, it wouldn't be a good idea.
> USB will be slow and quirky, if used for a HD TV tuner.
Wrong, they work fine.
== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Sep 19 2008 1:36 pm
From: " Frank"
<vjp2.at@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com> wrote in message
news:gav7rb$pkj$1@reader1.panix.com...
> I watch TV half an hour a month and don't care much for it. I have
> three pocket 1" BW LCD TVs and I'm looking for the cheapest way to get
> HDTV after February. If I had to pay more than fifty bucks I would
> forego TV altogether.
>
> - = -
> Vasos Panagiotopoulos, Columbia'81+, Reagan, Mozart, Pindus, BioStrategist
> http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/vjp2/vasos.htm
> ---{Nothing herein constitutes advice. Everything fully disclaimed.}---
> [Homeland Security means private firearms not lazy obstructive guards]
> [Urb sprawl confounds terror] [Remorse begets zeal] [Windows is for
> Bimbos]
>
How about a 1.8" color TV for $24?
http://www.amazon.com/Axion-ACN-5318-1-8-Inch-Portable-Color/dp/B00006CFMB/ref=dp_return_2?ie=UTF8&n=172282&s=electronics
Not HDTV, also need converter box.
==============================================================================
TOPIC: Blast from the (recent) past: Bonuses at Wall Street Big Five Surge to $
36 Billion
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/c50a29dd80450846?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Sep 19 2008 12:03 pm
From: timeOday
Something to think about what it means to "earn" money.
This article is jam-packed with choice quotes.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
<http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&refer=us&sid=atEk12XYMerk>
November 6, 2006
Bonuses at Wall Street Big Five Surge to $36 Billion
By Christine Harper
Nov. 6 (Bloomberg) -- Never in the history of Wall Street have so many
earned so much in so little time.
Goldman Sachs Group Inc., Morgan Stanley, Merrill Lynch & Co., Lehman
Brothers Holdings Inc. and Bear Stearns Cos. are about to reward their
173,000 employees with $36 billion of bonuses. That's a 30 percent
increase from last year's record, and it doesn't include the billions
more that will be paid by Citigroup Inc., Bank of America Corp. and
JPMorgan Chase & Co., the three largest U.S. banks, as well as the
hundreds of hedge funds and private-equity firms that constitute the
financial industry.
Enriched by the unprecedented value of takeovers, equity trading and
credit derivatives, ``this year will be the best ever for the major
brokerage firms,'' said Brad Hintz, an analyst at New York-based Sanford
C. Bernstein & Co.
The average windfall for each individual at the five largest U.S.
securities firms will be enough to buy a $165,000 Bentley Continental
GT, the two-door coupe favored by Paris Hilton and Cher. They'll have
plenty of change for a box of Romeo y Julieta cigars and a case of Pol
Roger champagne -- the stuff enjoyed by Winston Churchill, Britain's
prime minister in the 1940s and 1950s.
Credit-default swap specialists, who speculate on companies' ability to
repay debt, won't be the only winners this year.
New York City cut the estimate for its budget deficit by 87 percent last
week, in part because of the investment banks' better-than-expected
earnings. The state comptroller's office said Oct. 17 that tax receipts
from the financial industry's wages will rise 14 percent to $2.4 billion
in fiscal 2006.
Ferrari Sales
Dolly Lenz, Manhattan's doyenne of high-end properties, is timing some
of her best listings to coincide with bonus season. Ever since the
1970s, the UJA-Federation of New York has held its annual bankers'
fundraiser on the first Wednesday in December, a date chosen because it
was when Bear Stearns told employees what their bonuses would be.
``When Wall Street does well, we do well,'' said Richard Koppelman,
owner of Greenwich, Connecticut-based Miller Motorcars. Koppelman is
readying a $150,000 red 2005 Ferrari 360 Modena F1 convertible for a
customer who will be getting his first bonus since graduating from
business school two years ago.
London's investment bankers, traders and hedge fund managers will get
8.8 billion pounds ($16.7 billion) in bonuses this year, up 18 percent
from last year, the city's Centre for Economics and Business Research
Ltd. predicts.
`Multiplier Effect'
``We estimate that about 50 percent or more will end up in property,
driving up property markets,'' said Jonathan Said, senior economist at
the CEBR. ``There is also a multiplier effect trickling down to the
construction companies, and people spend more on luxury goods, eating
out and holidays.''
Conditions for money-making worldwide are some of the best ever. The
global economy is in its fourth straight year of growth of more than 4
percent, stock indexes in the U.S., Hong Kong, Canada, Mexico, Spain and
Brazil are at or near records, and corporate-debt defaults are at
historic lows.
Leveraged-buyout firms attracted more than $170 billion of new money
this year, helping to drive $2.9 trillion in takeovers and a surge in
loans, according to data compiled by Bloomberg and London-based Private
Equity Intelligence Ltd. More than $110 billion poured into hedge funds
in the first nine months, beating the last annual peak in 2002 and
fueling demand for stocks, bonds, commodities and derivatives, which are
used to hedge risks and for speculation, and can be linked to specific
events like changes in the weather or interest rates.
Creating Wealth
Securities firms took bigger risks of their own on trading bets and
private investments. Goldman and Merrill reaped gains from stakes in
companies such as Beijing-based Industrial & Commercial Bank of China
Ltd. and Hertz Global Holdings Inc. of Park Ridge, New Jersey.
Combined, Goldman, Morgan Stanley, Merrill, Lehman and Bear Stearns
earned $21.3 billion in the first nine months, surpassing the full-year
record of $20.4 billion in 2005.
``There's no industry that's as consistent in creating wealth as broadly
as investment banks,'' said Gary Goldstein, chief executive officer of
New York-based Whitney Group, which specializes in recruiting for
financial-services firms.
Goldman, Morgan Stanley, Merrill, Lehman and Bear Stearns are
representative of Wall Street's largesse because they account for more
than two-thirds of its capital, data compiled by the Securities Industry
Association show. They'll report $128 billion of combined revenue this
year, according to the average estimates of analysts surveyed by Thomson
Financial.
Four-Star General
The five firms set aside 40 percent to 50 percent of revenue to pay
compensation and benefits. Each holds back about 60 percent of that
amount for year-end bonuses, said Hintz, who previously was chief
financial officer at Lehman and treasurer at Morgan Stanley. Boutique
banks such as Lazard Ltd. distribute an even larger share of revenue to
employees.
``We'd like to see comp ratios coming down given that earnings are going
to be at record levels, but my expectation is they won't,'' said Mark
Bronzo, who helps manage $700 million, including shares of Goldman and
Lehman, at Gartmore Separate Accounts LLC in Irvington, New York. ``It's
a business that's driven by people who are driven to make a lot of money.''
Goldstein said ``a small number'' of the industry's employees will get
awards of $20 million or more, ``meaning there's an awful lot of people
at the lower end who are going to make $150,000.'' Even so, the average
bonus will exceed the $177,852 the U.S. Army pays a four-star general
with at least 26 years of experience to serve in Iraq or Afghanistan,
including allowances for family separation, hazardous duty and imminent
danger.
Like Peacetime Boom
While public opposition to the Iraqi occupation weighs on tomorrow's
U.S. election, war doesn't cast a pall over Wall Street the way it once did.
In 1940, when Churchill declared, ``Never in the field of human conflict
was so much owed by so many to so few,'' to describe his country's debt
of gratitude to the airmen who fought in the Battle of Britain, the Dow
Jones Industrial Average fell 13 percent. This year, the Dow average is
up 12 percent and it has gained 45 percent since the U.S. and Britain
invaded Iraq in 2003.
``Unless the price of oil gets mixed in here, I think they're just
operating on totally different spheres,'' said Charles Geisst, professor
of economics and finance at Manhattan College in New York's Riverdale
neighborhood and the author of ``100 Years of Wall Street,'' published
by McGraw-Hill in 1999. ``This is the sort of investment-banking market
you expect in a strong peacetime boom.''
Goldman's Bonanza
The biggest bonuses, some exceeding $40 million, will go to traders who
risk the firms' own capital on everything from crude oil to
credit-default swaps, structured-finance specialists who package
undesirable loans into hot-selling bonds and bankers who advise buyout
firms.
Payouts for top performers in London will be up at least 25 percent from
last year, according to Aidan Kennedy, a partner in the
financial-services practice at Christian & Timbers, a recruiter in the city.
Nowhere will the bonanza be bigger than at New York-based Goldman, which
is set to report an industry record of $8.43 billion in profit, up 50
percent from last year.
At Goldman, total pay will average $659,000 per employee, based on
analysts' estimates for $35.7 billion in revenue, the firm's average
compensation ratio of 47.4 percent for the past five years and a payroll
of 25,647 at the end of the third quarter. That includes an average
bonus of about $398,000.
Asian Investments
``You pay what one has to pay in order to attract the best and the
brightest,'' Sanford Weill, the former Citigroup chairman who ran
brokerages and banks for almost four of his five decades in financial
services, said in an Oct. 27 interview. ``Companies have to be
competitive or they're going to lose their good people.''
Goldman's principal-investments unit, led by 48-year-old Richard
Friedman, invests money on behalf of the firm and its employees. It may
be among the biggest beneficiaries of this year's bonuses, said Whitney
Group's Goldstein.
The firm's 5 percent stake in China's Industrial & Commercial Bank has
swelled by $4.5 billion since the country's biggest bank went public
last month -- just six months after Goldman acquired its holding. That
should mean outsized awards for the bankers who oversee investments in
Asia, including 50- year-old Henry Cornell and his Hong Kong-based
colleagues Hsueh Sung and Andrew Wolff, who was made partner this year.
Retention Strategy
Goldman's trading division is another likely winner. It produced $17
billion of revenue in the first three quarters of this year, up 58
percent from $11 billion a year earlier. The division's three co-heads,
Michael Sherwood, 41, who's based in London; J. Michael Evans, 49, in
Hong Kong; and Thomas Montag, 49, notched a 50 percent increase in
revenue from equity trading and 63 percent gain in fixed income.
Montag is moving to New York from Tokyo at the end of the year to become
head of trading in the U.S. He'll succeed Gary Cohn, 46, who became
Goldman's co-president with Jon Winkelried, 47, in June.
``If you're a top trader at Goldman Sachs, and you're not getting paid,
you're going to go start your own firm,'' said Kyle Cerminara, a
financial-services analyst at Baltimore-based T. Rowe Price Group Inc.,
which oversees about $300 billion, including shares of Goldman, Morgan
Stanley, Merrill and Lehman. ``You want them to retain the best people.''
Goldman spokeswoman Andrea Raphael declined to comment.
Surge in M&A
At Zurich-based UBS AG, Europe's biggest bank by assets, Chief Financial
Officer Clive Standish said bonuses will increase more for bankers who
arrange mergers and acquisitions, while fixed-income traders will ``find
themselves flat on the year.'' After three years in the shadow of
trading, M&A, the business with the fattest profit margins in the
industry, is at record levels for the first time since 2000.
UBS's revenue from fixed-income trading rose 16 percent in the first
nine months to 6.45 billion Swiss francs ($5.18 billion). The bank has
arranged $401 billion of takeovers completed this year, up from $226
billion at the same point in 2005, and increased its market share in M&A
to 19 percent from 13 percent.
``Compensation in this business follows revenues and performance,''
Citigroup Chief Financial Officer Sallie Krawcheck said in an interview
last month. ``It's very simple that way.''
Charities Track Bonuses
Still, no one in the industry is suffering. At $36 billion, the bonus
payouts from the five biggest securities firms alone will top the annual
budget of the National Institutes of Health, the U.S. medical-research
agency, and approach the $42.7 billion of funding that the Department of
Homeland Security requested for 2007. The United Nations World Food
Program budgeted about $3.5 billion this year to feed 79 million people
in the world's poorest countries.
Few charities miss the opportunity to remind traders and bankers that
bonus season is a time to give. The UJA-Federation, a Jewish
philanthropy, is holding its annual benefit for about 1,400 guests a
month from now. This year, the organization aims to raise at least $21.9
million, up from last year's record $20.4 million, said Joy Prevor, an
associate executive director in the fundraising division.
``It's really the climax of our campaign because it follows bonuses,''
Prevor said.
At the charity poker game that followed last year's fundraiser, prizes
included lunch with Lloyd Blankfein, 52, who became Goldman's chairman
and CEO this year, and Warren Spector, 49, president and co-chief
operating officer at Bear Stearns.
Widening Gap
While the enormity of this year's bonus pool will further distance Wall
Street from the rest of the economy, it's also widening gaps within the
industry. For managing directors, the highest pay grade at most
securities firms, bonuses used to range from $1.5 million to $2.5
million. Now managing directors are divided by a gulf from $700,000 to
$7 million, Whitney Group's Goldstein said.
``They pay the guys who are investing the firm's capital a lot more than
they pay the people who are acting as agent, generating leads,''
Goldstein said. ``There's always this concern they're going to lose some
of their best people to hedge funds or private-equity firms.''
No matter how big the bonus, the inevitable question is how to spend it.
Lenz, a vice chairman at New York-based realtor Prudential Douglas
Elliman, said she sold a $27.5 million apartment last year to one hedge
fund client who was expecting a $30 million bonus. This year, Lenz has
an $11.9 million apartment on New York's Park Avenue and condominiums in
Soho starting at $3.5 million lined up.
Bonus Table
``Thank God for bonus season,'' Lenz said. ``Last year until the end of
November was kind of lackluster and then that six-week period made the
year better than any year we've had.''
The following table shows the calculations for total and average bonuses
for each of the five biggest U.S. securities firms, based on estimated
revenue, compensation and benefits and number of employees. Figures are
in billions except for percentages and averages:
Firm Goldman Morgan Merrill Lehman Bear
Total Revenue $35.7 $33.6 $32.5 $17.4 $9.0
Comp/Revenue 47.4% 41.8% 49.5% 50.1% 48.8%
Total Comp $16.9 $14.0 $16.1 $8.7 $4.4
Bonus Pool $10.2 $8.4 $9.7 $5.2 $2.6
Employees 25,647 54,349 55,300 24,775 13,000
Average Comp $658,946 $257,594 $291,139 $351,160 $338,462
Average Bonus $397,707 $154,556 $174,683 $210,696 $203,077
(How the figures were calculated: Total revenue: the average estimate of
analysts surveyed by Thomson Financial. Comp/revenue: the average of the
last five annual ratios of compensation and benefits to revenue at each
firm. Total comp: Estimated revenue multiplied by the average ratio of
compensation to revenue. Bonus pool: 60 percent of estimated total comp.
Employees: Total number of full-time employees reported at the end of
the third quarter. Average comp: Estimated comp divided by total number
of employees. Average bonus: Estimated bonus pool divided by total
number of employees.)
To contact the reporter on this story: Christine Harper in New York at
charper@bloomberg.net.
Last Updated: November 6, 2006 15:12 EST
== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Sep 19 2008 12:28 pm
From: clams_casino
timeOday wrote:
>Something to think about what it means to "earn" money.
>
>
>
For the past seven years, it's crossed my mind how the financial group
could rewarded themselves with mega bonuses, even though the market &
overall economy has been relatively stagnant.
Now I'm beginning to understand - it was all with borrowed money.
==============================================================================
TOPIC: Not getting ripped off
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/a0ffb65c7fe90216?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Sep 19 2008 1:10 pm
From: madelineroseboutique@yahoo.com
I stumbled upon this cool website that allows you to search the
internet (not just their own content - like some of the similar sites)
for complaints about businesses. It's pretty cool in that it also
allows the user to leave comments about businesses without having to
leave personal information.
== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Sep 19 2008 1:49 pm
From: SMS
madelineroseboutique@yahoo.com wrote:
> I stumbled upon this cool website that allows you to search the
> internet (not just their own content - like some of the similar sites)
> for complaints about businesses. It's pretty cool in that it also
> allows the user to leave comments about businesses without having to
> leave personal information.
Thank goodness that besides being a spammer, you're too stupid to
actually include the URL of your website in your spam.
==============================================================================
TOPIC: Video - Banking: The Swindle - "That's why I quit paying my credit
cards. Fuck em if they can't take a joke"
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/8aa4bfee504165cf?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Sep 19 2008 1:12 pm
From: "Rod Speed"
007 <007@embarqmail.com> wrote:
> On Sep 18, 5:44 pm, nos...@noway.net (Ralph) wrote:
>> St Georges Day April 23rd <bbbbbdfgdfgdgd...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Swindling the Goyim
>>
>>> How the bankers steal with simple tricks. If this is true, then what
>>> are they doing with credit cards and home mortgages?
>>
>>> http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=a2kfUNo4_r8
>>
>> This is way oversimplfied. The central banks of Europe and the US
>> create
>> money out of nothing.
>>
>> Money, Banking & The Federal Reserve (42
>> minutes)http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-466210540567002553
>>
>> G Edward Griffin - Creature From Jekyll Island A Second Look at the
>> Federal Reserve (42
>> minutes)http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6507136891691870450
>>
>> Monopoly Men (Federal Reserve Fraud) (47
>> minutes)http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7065177340464808778
>>
>> ZEITGEIST, The Movie - Official Release - Part 3 of 3 (47
>> minutes)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__YFnUfYXZk (I don't
>> recommend Zeitgeist parts 1 and 2 which are basically a fuzzy
>> logic anti-religion rant and 9-11 conspiracy theories, but he's
>> right on
>> in his segment on the Fed)
>>
>> FIAT EMPIRE - Why the Federal Reserve Violates the U.S. Constitution
>> (59
>> minutes)http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5232639329002339531
>>
>> America: Freedom to Fascism - Director's Authorized Version (1 hour
>> 51
>> minutes)http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1656880303867390173
>>
>> The Money Masters - How International Bankers Gained Control of
>> America (3 hours 35
>> minutes)http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-515319560256183936
>
> I've seen some of these videos. Many, if not all, of them say that
> banks may loan many times what they take in as deposits. What is the
> source for this claim?
The real world.
> I've heard it for 20 years and I've never come across any justification for it besides the assertion.
> I believe banks are limited to loan only what they've taken in, with some of it
> being subject to a 10% reserve.
Its MUCH more complicated than that.
Once the loan has been signed, they are grouped with other loans,
securitized and sold off to those who want to get a decent return
in their cash. The money that the bank gets that way is then available
to be lent out again and the whole cycle repeats endlessly.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Securitization
> "If the reserve requirement is 10%, for example, a bank that receives
> a $100 deposit may lend out $90 of that deposit." See:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reserve_ratio
Its MUCH more complicated than that with securitization.
> Here is an example of how money is created through fractional reserve banking:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_creation
>
> In the example, from $100 that is deposited into a bank, there ends up
> being a total of $457.05 deposited and $357.05 loaned out. The banks,
> collectively, owe $457.05 to their depositors and are owed $357.05 by
> their borrowers.
==============================================================================
TOPIC: brot selber backen rezepte käse rezept brotsorten aus gemüse rezepte
brot backen im brotbackautomat
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/a91037e87ca908ec?hl=en
==============================================================================
== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Sep 19 2008 2:11 pm
From: zakeen964@googlemail.com
brot selber backen rezepte käse rezept brotsorten aus gemüse rezepte
brot backen im brotbackautomat
+++
+++
+++
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http://www.brot-backen.net
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+++
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http://www.brot-backen.net
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+++
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http://www.brot-backen.net
http://www.brot-backen.net
http://www.brot-backen.net
+++
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rezept rezepte aus
kochen brot backen kruste
brot backen de sauerteig brot
brot backen hefe getreide rezept
backen mit brot backen auf dem
rezept brot baguette
brot backen auf brot backen mehl
rezepte zum brot backen brot backen mit brotbackautomat
- brot zubereitung regionale rezepte
- kartoffeln backofen brot weizen
- obst rezepte rezepte
- hobbythek brot backen brot backen auf
- selber brotbacken brot backen sauerteig
- kartoffel rezepte brotbacken ohne
- rezepte küche einfaches brot backen
- käse rezept einfach brot backen
- weißbrot backen brot glutenfrei
- brotbacken zubehör ohne brot
- rezepte mit kartoffeln konfitüren rezepte
- gemüse rezepte brot selber
- nudel rezept apfelkuchen backen
- brotbackautomat brot backen zutaten
==============================================================================
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