Frugal Living: 25 new messages in 17 topics

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

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TOPIC: Are you tired of programs that just don't work! THIS DOES!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/c79387f8ec4a1ce9?hl=en
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TOPIC: Heat Pump Water Heaters
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/40d651ea196b45b8?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Tues, Apr 8 2008 6:15 am
From: Paul M. Eldridge

On Tue, 8 Apr 2008 00:37:35 -0400, <h> wrote:

>Is the water ever really hot with that kind of setup? I have friends in
>Massachusetts with that setup, and the only time the water is ever above
>body temp is in the dead of winter when the furnace runs almost constantly.
>It's ok in the summer, but lukewarm showers in January are not particularly
>appealing. They plan to replace with an electric water heater as soon as
>they can afford to, but it's their first house and money is very tight.

To answer your question, they should provide plenty of hot water and
can heat this water up to 60C/140F (most electric tanks are set to 50C
or less to prevent the risk of scalding). During periods of unusually
high draw when the heat pump can't keep up with the demand, the
electric element(s) inside the tank will kick on and so the water
heater will perform in the same way as a standard electric unit.

Have your friends checked and cleaned/replaced the air filter on their
unit? If not, the condenser could be clogged with dust and lint,
which would severely impact its operating performance and,
potentially, its service life. Have they also checked the tank's
upper element and thermostat? If either has failed (not uncommon on
older tanks) or if the thermostat was turned down too low -- or was
disconnected by the previous owner so that heat pump would operate on
its own, in an attempt to maximize savings -- you could conceivably
run out of hot water during periods of high demand.

Installed correctly and with proper routine maintenance (basically,
nothing more than cleaning or changing the air filter), these products
should provide many years of trouble-free and economical service. I
understand Massachusetts has some of the highest electricity rates in
North America and replacing a water heater with one that could
potentially use twice as much electricity doesn't strike me as a good
solution.

Cheers,
Paul

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Tues, Apr 8 2008 7:07 am
From:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Paul M. Eldridge" <paul.eldridge@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:mkpmv3tln2v6p7us6jjjt07joq7qu2b4tb@4ax.com...

> Installed correctly and with proper routine maintenance (basically,
> nothing more than cleaning or changing the air filter), these products
> should provide many years of trouble-free and economical service. I
> understand Massachusetts has some of the highest electricity rates in
> North America and replacing a water heater with one that could
> potentially use twice as much electricity doesn't strike me as a good
> solution.
>
> Cheers,
> Paul

They've had several "specialists" come out to take a look (boiler guy, water
heater guy, heat pump guy) and the "experts" all say the heater is working
properly, and the settings are correct. At this point, they could have
simply replaced the water heater, since they've spent over $500 on
professionals to tell them that the system is just fine. The water heater
guy told them he had the "same setup", and looked at them funny when they
complained about the water temp. He said, "It's already at 95 degrees (F).
How much hotter would you like it? Sheesh." Maybe it's a local thing (tough
New Englanders), but I think most people want their hot water to be at least
120 degrees F. The guy jacked the thermostat all the way up (grumbling that
they would "scald themselves"), so now the water is at 100 degrees F. Still
way too cold, but it's apparently running "properly". I'm just glad I don't
have to shower in it!

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Tues, Apr 8 2008 8:24 am
From: Paul M. Eldridge

On Tue, 8 Apr 2008 10:07:50 -0400, <h> wrote:

>
>"Paul M. Eldridge" <paul.eldridge@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
>news:mkpmv3tln2v6p7us6jjjt07joq7qu2b4tb@4ax.com...
>
>> Installed correctly and with proper routine maintenance (basically,
>> nothing more than cleaning or changing the air filter), these products
>> should provide many years of trouble-free and economical service. I
>> understand Massachusetts has some of the highest electricity rates in
>> North America and replacing a water heater with one that could
>> potentially use twice as much electricity doesn't strike me as a good
>> solution.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Paul
>
>They've had several "specialists" come out to take a look (boiler guy, water
>heater guy, heat pump guy) and the "experts" all say the heater is working
>properly, and the settings are correct. At this point, they could have
>simply replaced the water heater, since they've spent over $500 on
>professionals to tell them that the system is just fine. The water heater
>guy told them he had the "same setup", and looked at them funny when they
>complained about the water temp. He said, "It's already at 95 degrees (F).
>How much hotter would you like it? Sheesh." Maybe it's a local thing (tough
>New Englanders), but I think most people want their hot water to be at least
>120 degrees F. The guy jacked the thermostat all the way up (grumbling that
>they would "scald themselves"), so now the water is at 100 degrees F. Still
>way too cold, but it's apparently running "properly". I'm just glad I don't
>have to shower in it!

Thanks for the additional info. FWIW, a typical heat pump water
heater provides 8,000 to 10,000 BTUs/hr of heating (nominal). That's
the same amount of heat as would be provided by a 2.3 to 2.9 kW
electric element. A standard electric water heater is normally
equipped with either a 3.0 or 3.8 kW element although 4.5 or 5.5 kW
elements are used on some larger capacity models. What this means is
that HPWHs require longer recovery times and, thus, to maximize
potential savings (i.e., to avoid the backup elements from kicking on
to help out), it's best to spread out demand over a wider timeframe
where possible.

That said, if the heat pump cannot keep up with demand, it would
automatically switch over to the backup resistance elements so it
should provide the same level of performance as a conventional
electric unit. If everything were truly working properly and they're
still running out of hot water, they would likewise run out of hot
water with a conventional electric tank.

Clearly, something is not working as it should. Either they're
drawing unusually large amounts of hot water over a short timeframe
and therefore the electric elements cannot keep up, or the thermostat
is not properly set up to facilitate this switch-over to electric
resistance. In any event, anyone claiming that 100F is too hot
frankly doesn't know their ass from a hole in the ground. The tank
thermostat should be set to 120F, or higher if equipped with an
anti-scalding valve. With that, the likelihood of a "run out" qould
be vastly diminished.

Cheers,
Paul

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Tues, Apr 8 2008 9:06 am
From: "Bob F"

<h> wrote in message news:47faf53b$0$6131$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>
> "Lou" <lpogodajr292185@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:R8mdndsJ2v4RKmfanZ2dnUVZ_tyknZ2d@comcast.com...
>>
>> "Paul M. Eldridge" <paul.eldridge@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
>> news:krfkv393j0es7ib64nolictduet2uhnj65@4ax.com...
>>> I have an indirect hot water tank that is connected to my oil-fired
>>> boiler. With heating oil currently selling at $1.10 per litre and
>>> with a summer EF rating of 0.60, oil is now 1.6 times more expensive
>>> than electric resistance.
>>>
>>> Although the easiest and least costly option would be to install a
>>> conventional electric tank, I've always considered a Nyle heat pump
>>> water heater a better alternative. Unfortunately, I lack sufficient
>>> space in my laundry room for another full size storage tank (it's not
>>> CSA/UL approved for what I have now), an external heat pump and all
>>> the related plumbing. That said, a fully integrated product such as
>>> this GE design could fit if I remove the storage cabinet that sits
>>> next to the washer and dryer.
>
> Is the water ever really hot with that kind of setup? I have friends in
> Massachusetts with that setup, and the only time the water is ever above body
> temp is in the dead of winter when the furnace runs almost constantly. It's ok
> in the summer, but lukewarm showers in January are not particularly appealing.
> They plan to replace with an electric water heater as soon as they can afford
> to, but it's their first house and money is very tight.

Do the friends have a heat-pump water heater, or are they just using the
superheat from a heatpump that heats the house to warm the water? If so, I
wouldn't recommend replacing the thing, but just supplementing it.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: is it frugal to replace old top loading washer with new front loading
energy star?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/57c32f9bf6996aba?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Tues, Apr 8 2008 6:51 am
From: Vic Smith

On Tue, 8 Apr 2008 05:49:26 -0700 (PDT), Joe <joe5345@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Apr 7, 2:41 am, "Rod Speed" <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Sounds like you are looking for an excuse to buy a new one.
>
>I am, this old washer doesn't really clean the clothes very well and
>the clothes come out sopping wet so if I don't run the dryer 2 cycles
>my clothes end up with a slight mildewy smell. But it still works... I
>was hoping someone would chime in and tell me that their electric
>usage went down just from the fact that the spin cycle on these front
>loaders is so thorough that the clothes need less time in the dryer.
>The thing that really kills me is reading about how in other states
>people can get rebates from their state and utilities up to $200 for
>buying an energy star rated machine. Not so in CT...

Some top-loaders have high rate spin cycles. Have one of those
myself.
http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_02637782000P?vName=Appliances&cName=Washers+%26+Dryers&sName=Top-Load+Washers

I won't recommend it, because I haven't had it long enough.
It'll have to work at least 5 more years before I'll feel it's done
right by me. I saw some failures in the comments, so bought the 5
year full-bore warrantee for a couple hundred.
It's certainly not my most frugal purchase, but dirty clothes were
piling up. Better if you have more time.
Given the wife's demand for pre-soak and capacity, it was the best I
could come up with. We rejected front loaders due to
cost/platforms/reliability.
Wife says this one leaves more dog hair on the clothes than the old
one that broke. That Kenmore was probably 25 years old.
She also doesn't like its water mixing. Says it adds cold water to
wash even if set to hot wash/warm rinse. So you get warm/warm.
No other complaints.
On the plus side it's quiet, and has an extra high speed spin cycle
that she says has shortened dry time considerably.
Might be similar high speed spinners out.

--Vic

== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Tues, Apr 8 2008 9:14 am
From: "Bob F"

"Dave" <noway@nohow.not> wrote in message
news:ftfma3$bhh$1@registered.motzarella.org...
>
>> I don't have one. But when I bought my last machine I considered it, and
>> decided not to when I calculated that it would take something like 20-25
>> years for the extra cost to be made up by water savings.
>
> Yes, but did you calculate the cost of heating water? A front loader uses a
> lot less water, so you need to HEAT less water to run it. -Dave

Plus, the newer machines supposedly spin faster, to reduce the dryer time. And
I've heard that clothes last significantly longer when washed in front loaders.

== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Tues, Apr 8 2008 10:08 am
From: "Dave"

>>
>> Yes, but did you calculate the cost of heating water? A front loader
>> uses a lot less water, so you need to HEAT less water to run it. -Dave
>
> Plus, the newer machines supposedly spin faster, to reduce the dryer time.
> And I've heard that clothes last significantly longer when washed in front
> loaders.

Yup, the clothes are practically dry before they hit the dryer.

Don't know about clothes lasting significantly longer, but I do know that
they get SIGNIFICANTLY cleaner in a front loader. I hate using top loaders
(when I'm on the road) for the reason that in a top loader the clothes never
really get clean. -Dave

== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Tues, Apr 8 2008 11:42 am
From: me@privacy.net

Joe <joe5345@gmail.com> wrote:

>But it still works... I
>was hoping someone would chime in and tell me that their electric
>usage went down just from the fact that the spin cycle on these front
>loaders

Beware: The "life" of these front loaders doesn't come
anywhere near what the old top loaders are.

Id say if you get 10 yrs form a front loader before it
breaks down... you are doing very well indeed. So make
sure to include the shorter "life" in you cost and
payback calcs.

== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Tues, Apr 8 2008 11:44 am
From: me@privacy.net

Vic Smith <thismailautodeleted@comcast.net> wrote:

>We rejected front loaders due to
>cost/platforms/reliability.

My Kenmore front loader only lasted 7 years..... with
light duty use

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TOPIC: Turning off gas / water in house that is still somewhat in use?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/0d95784a16c4e201?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Apr 8 2008 8:27 am
From: Derald

"Joe" <really-faked-but-works@yunx.com> wrote:

>It doesn't get below freezing and I have a fridge or two in the house so I
>can't kill the power totally... Anything else I can do to save $$$ on
>utilities?
Well, if you won't be depending on the fridges to keep food,
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TOPIC: washing rubber gloves in washer
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/00ebcf12080a52d8?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Apr 8 2008 9:03 am
From: "Bob F"

<piclistguy@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c2d39455-b0f9-4b29-9efb-ded2ebf9bff3@k10g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
>I often use rubber gloves for washing dishes (sensitive skin).
> The ones I buy are from from Target for about $6. They last a long
> time and are high quality.
> Once in a while, water gets into the lining and bacteria start to
> grow.
> I dont want to throw them out each time this happens.
> I tried putting them in the washer. and then try to air dry them.
> However latent moisture in the lining cant escape quick enough and
> bacteria start to grow.
> When I put the gloves on my hands and remove them, my hands smell of
> the contaminated lining. Does anyone know of some tricks I can try to
> keep from throwing these out.
> Thanks

If they get wet inside, just turn them inside out to dry. Just shove the fingers
into the wrist opening and blow it up like a balloon. A quick rinse in bleach
water should kill anything growing on them.

Hanging them with a clothespin so they are open at the top and air can reach all
of the inside should also help.

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== 1 of 1 ==
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== 1 of 1 ==
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Apr 8 2008 9:47 am
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Apr 8 2008 9:47 am
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TOPIC: Opinions about collision/comprehensive auto coverage.
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==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Apr 8 2008 9:49 am
From: Anthony Matonak

George wrote:
> hchickpea@hotmail.com wrote:
...
>> I'd keep comp, dump collision and drive defensively. AAMOF, our total
>> policy is now close to $500/yr. Time to shop insurance.
>
> That is what I am thinking. I already drive defensively. The only thing
> I need to find out is what happens if I am driving someone else's
> valuable vehicle and there is an accident. I used to frequently rent
> cars and my collision covered the rental but have no need to do that now.

I'm no lawyer, but I believe the insurance is on the vehicle and not
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vehicle has insurance then you should be OK.

You have to be careful when you don't buy into the rental insurance.
I've heard of people who got stuck with $500 in "damages" consisting
of old nicks and dings they didn't notice when doing the walk around.

Anthony

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Apr 8 2008 10:46 am
From: sarge137

On Apr 8, 10:49 am, Anthony Matonak
<anthony...@nothing.like.socal.rr.com> wrote:
> George wrote:
> > hchick...@hotmail.com wrote:
> ...
> >> I'd keep comp, dump collision and drive defensively. AAMOF, our total
> >> policy is now close to $500/yr. Time to shop insurance.
>
> > That is what I am thinking. I already drive defensively. The only thing
> > I need to find out is what happens if I am driving someone else's
> > valuable vehicle and there is an accident. I used to frequently rent
> > cars and my collision covered the rental but have no need to do that now.
>
> I'm no lawyer, but I believe the insurance is on the vehicle and not
> the driver. As long as you make sure that someone else's valuable
> vehicle has insurance then you should be OK.

Depends on the company and the policy. My policy covers me in any
vehicle I'm legally licensed to drive, within the the limits of my
coverages and deductibles, anywhere in the 50 states; and says so in
plain english in the policy. Not so in every case however, so one
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a CSR from your company tells you. If it's not there, you may not be
covered.

> You have to be careful when you don't buy into the rental insurance.
> I've heard of people who got stuck with $500 in "damages" consisting
> of old nicks and dings they didn't notice when doing the walk around.

Dead on. I've heard the same kind of stories. I only rent a car once
or twice a year, and never buy the company's insurance. But I do a
careful walk around, and don't move the car until any noticeable
dings, dents or scratches are noted on my rental agreement by a
company official. I always have a camera handy when I'm travelling
and photograph them as well.

Regards,
Sarge

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Enterprise and Insurance, AND problem with maintenance
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/46b6241fba92f52d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Apr 8 2008 10:05 am
From: Brightstahr@gmail.com

They convinced me to sign up for the policy on the basis that if the
car is out of commission for a week,
they could charge me by the day for rental, since the car would not be
in the rental pool.

I found out later that American Express covers that and the insurance
person at Amex suggests
that perhaps they knew/know this. Could be. They made the sale.
Bully for them.

Next....

the car would NOT move out of Park. The gear shifter was jammed!
Several people nearby tried to help
and neither of them could move the stick out of Park. After dark,
Raining, ... and a real nice part of
downtown, too. I called for Enterprise roadside assistance, and they
tried some things too.
The people tried rocking the car forward and back while I forced the
gear shifter and that broke it loose.
Lucky for me the people were not car jackers? or that there was anyone
there at all !! I would have
been stuck waiting for a tow.

When I took the car back the next day, the woman at the counter as
much as called me a liar.

Real nice.

Discount cars, Discount service, but without any discount.

Frugal? not a chance. This was a very poor experience and I cannot
recommend them.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: "Obama for America Correspondence Team" <media@barackobama.com>, "RNC
Campaign Staff" <ecampaign@gop.com>,
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/727894ede3f5a3c4?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Apr 8 2008 12:04 pm
From: 2Barter08 <2Barter08@gmail.com>

e-Enjoy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPnJGHXiSXI&feature=related
http://docs.google.com/View?docID=ddsqmxd6_79f3rq6zfx&revision=_latest&hgd=1

And Thank you sincerely http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sN6e0teFLxc
2Barter08/McCain SENT To; "Obama for America Correspondence Team"
<media@barackobama.com>, "RNC Campaign Staff" <ecampaign@gop.com>,

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Frugal Living

Blog Archive

Tuesday, April 8, 2008

25 new messages in 17 topics - digest

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