Frugal Living: 12/01/2008

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

* 100 finanzierung haus,bauspardarlehen 1,immobilien krediten,günstige kredite
hauskauf,immobilienkredit konditionen, + + + + +++ GUENSTIGE KREDITE ONLINE +++
KREDITE IM INTERNET OHNE SCHUFA +++ + + http://WWW.IMMOBILIEN-KREDIT-ONLINE.
NET http://WWW.IMMOBILIEN-KREDIT-ONLINE.NET http://WWW.IMMOBILIEN-KREDIT-
ONLINE.NET http://WWW.IMMOBILIEN-KREDIT-ONLINE.NET http://WWW.IMMOBILIEN-
KREDIT-ONLINE.NET http://WWW.IMMOBILIEN-KREDIT-ONLINE.NET http://WWW.
IMMOBILIEN-KREDIT-ONLINE.NET http://WWW.IMMOBILIEN-KREDIT-ONLINE.NET http://
WWW.IMMOBILIEN-KREDIT-ONLINE.NET http://WWW.IMMOBILIEN-KREDIT-ONLINE.NET http:/
/WWW.IMMOBILIEN-KREDIT-ONLINE.NET http://WWW.IMMOBILIEN-KREDIT-ONLINE.NET + + +
+ kredit haus bauen mein haus planen & finanzieren 2.0 in St. Kitts und Nevis
immobilienfinanzierung tipps baufinanzierung umschuldung in Südafrika antrag
auf eigenheimzulage aktuelle hypotheken zinsen in Niedersachsen
baufinanzierung wiki zinsentwicklung immobilienkredit in Gunzenhausen einem
bauspardarlehen haus finanzieren rechner in Hoechstadt hypotheken darlehen
baukredit finanzierung in Uelzen eigenheimzulage nach 2006 ratgeber
immobilienfinanzierung in Pforzheim finanzierung haus vergleich zinsen für
immobilienfinanzierung in Weißenfels - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/faf3ef891ff6d215?hl=en
* Economy is tough - help yourself by saving $100 per week on groceries, learn
my secret - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/fcb8073256d0461a?hl=en
* Wholesale world famous brand bag(handbags) 25$-30$ - www.cicigogo.cn - 1
messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/e042aa0915a68228?hl=en
* Better think twice about supporting M$ / Windows - 19 messages, 7 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/91b29b33b75bb0d0?hl=en
* Obama birth/school records found in Jakarta - 2 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/a9dcbec05844fdda?hl=en
* Binary Newsserver needed. - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/9104c76d877203e4?hl=en

==============================================================================
TOPIC: 100 finanzierung haus,bauspardarlehen 1,immobilien krediten,günstige
kredite hauskauf,immobilienkredit konditionen, + + + + +++ GUENSTIGE KREDITE
ONLINE +++ KREDITE IM INTERNET OHNE SCHUFA +++ + + http://WWW.IMMOBILIEN-
KREDIT-ONLINE.NET http://WWW.IMMOBILIEN-KREDIT-ONLINE.NET http://WWW.
IMMOBILIEN-KREDIT-ONLINE.NET http://WWW.IMMOBILIEN-KREDIT-ONLINE.NET http://
WWW.IMMOBILIEN-KREDIT-ONLINE.NET http://WWW.IMMOBILIEN-KREDIT-ONLINE.NET http:/
/WWW.IMMOBILIEN-KREDIT-ONLINE.NET http://WWW.IMMOBILIEN-KREDIT-ONLINE.NET http:
//WWW.IMMOBILIEN-KREDIT-ONLINE.NET http://WWW.IMMOBILIEN-KREDIT-ONLINE.NET
http://WWW.IMMOBILIEN-KREDIT-ONLINE.NET http://WWW.IMMOBILIEN-KREDIT-ONLINE.
NET + + + + kredit haus bauen mein haus planen & finanzieren 2.0 in St. Kitts
und Nevis immobilienfinanzierung tipps baufinanzierung umschuldung in
Südafrika antrag auf eigenheimzulage aktuelle hypotheken zinsen in
Niedersachsen baufinanzierung wiki zinsentwicklung immobilienkredit in
Gunzenhausen einem bauspardarlehen haus finanzieren rechner in Hoechstadt
hypotheken darlehen baukredit finanzierung in Uelzen eigenheimzulage nach 2006
ratgeber immobilienfinanzierung in Pforzheim finanzierung haus vergleich
zinsen für immobilienfinanzierung in Weißenfels
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/faf3ef891ff6d215?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Dec 30 2008 11:16 pm
From: kaosereyrath12@googlemail.com

100 finanzierung haus,bauspardarlehen 1,immobilien krediten,günstige
kredite hauskauf,immobilienkredit konditionen,

kredit haus bauen mein haus planen & finanzieren 2.0 in St. Kitts und
Nevis
immobilienfinanzierung tipps baufinanzierung umschuldung in Südafrika
antrag auf eigenheimzulage aktuelle hypotheken zinsen in Niedersachsen
baufinanzierung wiki zinsentwicklung immobilienkredit in Gunzenhausen
einem bauspardarlehen haus finanzieren rechner in Hoechstadt
hypotheken darlehen baukredit finanzierung in Uelzen
eigenheimzulage nach 2006 ratgeber immobilienfinanzierung in Pforzheim
finanzierung haus vergleich zinsen für immobilienfinanzierung in
Weißenfels

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Economy is tough - help yourself by saving $100 per week on groceries,
learn my secret
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/fcb8073256d0461a?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Dec 31 2008 12:32 am
From: "Rod Speed"

There is no 'secret', just your original terminal stupidity.

Saving Mom wrote:

> I have learned how to save $100 or more per week on my grocery bill.

All that proves is that what you were originally spending was terminally stupid.

> Click the link below to see copies of my receipts and to learn more.

No thanks, nothing to 'learn' there except your terminal stupidity.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Wholesale world famous brand bag(handbags) 25$-30$ - www.cicigogo.cn
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/e042aa0915a68228?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Dec 31 2008 1:38 am
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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Better think twice about supporting M$ / Windows
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/91b29b33b75bb0d0?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 19 ==
Date: Wed, Dec 31 2008 2:23 am
From: "Maxim S. Shatskih"

> Right now, many distros of linux are not only faster and more stable than
> any version of windows,

Wrong. Some features in Linux (i.e. SMB protocol client) are by far slower. They still have no stable (only experimental) crash-proof journaling filesystem, and so on.

"Stable" in the absense of 3rd party software only, only if you use the out-of-the-box software included to the distro. Well, Windows+MS Office _and no other software_ is also very stable. I would even say that Windows+a bunch of Microsoft-only softtware on it - is amazingly stable.

>but they are also easier (MUCH!) and faster to
> install, and easier to use, than windows.

Wrong. All Linux GUI software (probably with the exception of the Konqueror web browser) suffers from lots of tiny misfeatures.

Now let's consider games on Linux. Sorry guys.
Now let's consider .NET business apps on Linux. Sorry guys.
Now let's consider the front-end of any business/accounting software on Linux. Sorry guys.
Now let's consider the certified Oracle for Linux. Sorry guys, _this_ Linux distro (RHEL) costs more then Windows Server.

> likely see a mass migration where linux would gain at least 80% market share

These tales were spoken about since early 2000ies. Starting from around 2004, I see the new attitude arising - a person tried Linux, a person understood that it's nasty, a person returned to Windows _with the knowlegde that Windows is not perfect (but Linux is even worse).

> with most of the rest going to whatever Apple OS variant is most

A niche OS. 10% of market is a dream for them, and I'm speaking about SOHO/personal. About enterprise desktop - 1% is a dream for them.

It is too tied to proprietary expensive hardware to begin with.

I'm seen lots of people around me considering iPhone as being pathetic toy _in comparison with recent WinMobile devices_ like HTC's ones. Though I myself consider iPhone a good device, comparable to WinMobile 1-to-1 in features (I'm also speaking about the set of 3rd party software) and aestetically more pleasant.

Now note that attitudes of all these vendors and communities.

MS: mass-market commodity of affordable quality. For entry-level users and for professionals. Like a Japanese or Korean car. Nothing glamorous or elite. It just works.

Apple: aestetically pleasant toy for fans who are not IT professionals. Amazing lack of some simple and convinient features, just before "Steve Jobs thinks you do not need it at all".

Linux: for tinkering fans, for professionals more concerned about mastering some schizoid language syntax and not to do the job done. Lots of distros different in tiny features - this difference causes issues and does not bring any value. The community attitude of "hey moron, go away!".

--
Maxim S. Shatskih
Windows DDK MVP
maxim@storagecraft.com
http://www.storagecraft.com

== 2 of 19 ==
Date: Wed, Dec 31 2008 2:31 am
From: "Maxim S. Shatskih"

> - Games (though ATI releasing 3D specs today is a step in the right
>
> direction)

Linux has major architectural issues in their X11 which hinders the hi-perf 3D graphics a lot. Windows NT 3 has the same issues, but the architecture was redone in Windows NT 4 in year 1996.

X11 is a well-known mis-architecture. A couple of years ago I read about the KDE guys going on to develop _their own low-level 2D graphics_ to replace X11 (anyway the programming patterns in KDE deal with KDE objects and never with raw X11, so, the shift would be not noticeable for apps at al). Also note that the most successul UNIX on desktop/GUI apps - Mac OS - does not use X11.

Mac OS's (aka NextStep's) GUI engine architecture is probably the world's best. MS is catching up with it only with WPF, but sorry, WPF is 2006, while NextStep was 1992 or so.

> - MS Office (OpenOffice is fine for me, and probably fine for most
> people, but it supposedly isn't as featureful as MS
> Office)

Printed papers from OpenOffice differ a bit from the same paper from MS Office, yes, from the same document file. Sometimes it is critical (not always). Also OO is much slower - on file open/save, for instance.

> - Photoshop (GIMP supposedly isn't as good)

For an amateur GIMP is OK, but I know of no professional who uses GIMP. The thing is about plugins.

--
Maxim S. Shatskih
Windows DDK MVP
maxim@storagecraft.com
http://www.storagecraft.com

== 3 of 19 ==
Date: Wed, Dec 31 2008 2:36 am
From: "Maxim S. Shatskih"

> To avoid shooting themselves (and others) in the foot,
> developers might want to think twice about using Windows as
> a development platform. Instead, consider using Linux.
> It's much more cost effective. :-)

This tale is told for 10 years at least, but the world is still here.

Looks like the tale has major issues.

--
Maxim S. Shatskih
Windows DDK MVP
maxim@storagecraft.com
http://www.storagecraft.com

== 4 of 19 ==
Date: Wed, Dec 31 2008 2:41 am
From: "Maxim S. Shatskih"

> I believe that most folks use Windows at home because they were trained on
> it at work and/or it just came on their systems automatically.

...and some folks use Windows at home because they tried Linux, decided it is bad and switched back. The number of such people really grows since around 2003-04.

> the server, Windows is on the machine that is looking at the user. To get
> enough corporations to dump Windows and retrain all their employees [at
> significant expense] on another OS in order to have enough momentum to get
> this going will be a huge and unlikely task

There were also the major failure stories with this - like the one in German governement.

Windows (as also Windows-based technologies like .NET) is backed not only by MS, but by huge number of other software companies, IT solution providers, training centers and so on. This is a huge ecosystem, and is really a business-oriented one.

Sorry, Linux lacks this ecosystem - a couple of large companies (one of them also has their propietary UNIX competing with Linux), and a mass of tinkering fans.

The community support for Windows is better.

--
Maxim S. Shatskih
Windows DDK MVP
maxim@storagecraft.com
http://www.storagecraft.com

== 5 of 19 ==
Date: Wed, Dec 31 2008 2:46 am
From: "Maxim S. Shatskih"

> People do not like to leave their comfort zone, although that's not a
> wise choice.

In most situations this is a wise choice.

Innovations are only good if they produce new value. What new value is produced by switching the home PC to Linux, given the fact that most Linux software are not-so-well made clones of Windows software (like KDE to Windows shell, OO to MS Office and so on?)

The only value produced by such a move is due to Linux being free, but sorry, this is not about any _supported_ distros like RHEL.

As about the corporate network - saving money on software while losing it on 2-times-as-large IT department (and yes, the switch will require so) - is a bad idea.

--
Maxim S. Shatskih
Windows DDK MVP
maxim@storagecraft.com
http://www.storagecraft.com

== 6 of 19 ==
Date: Wed, Dec 31 2008 2:59 am
From: "Maxim S. Shatskih"

>everything I needed to do with what I had, and ii) I refuse to help bill
>gates get even richer)

OK, help Linus Torvalds or Ingo Molnar get richer :-)

For me, this is not an issue anyway. There are always some High Guys, some elite, some bosses, and they are always rich. Being the classic of human society, this does not touch me at all, at least until they start to subjugate the usual people (which Bill does _not_).

>play" as any OS can be and Apple's OS-X is not as immune to hacks as they

Apple OS always had the same sad story of malware and virii as MS's OSes, even back to 1990ies. Given the Apple's 10-times-smaller market share, this _is_ the issue.

>And, by the way, OS-X is basically BSD, another unix clone like Linux

Sorry-sorry. This is a known logical fallacy - you compare parts, find it to be similar, and then declare that the whole things are the same.

If you take the inner kernel - then yes, OS X is similar to Linux. Now let's take the GUI - and the similarity disappears, with Apple different from Linux same way as from Windows.

Apple has the world's best architecture for GUI and graphics engine (Microsoft followed with WPF only, which is based on the same concepts). That's why it - and not Linux - has some noticeable market share on the desktops/laptops.

>The big insult with the new Windows (i.e. all late versions) is that they
>do not give you an "install disk" so you can re-install your OS if some
>hacker messes up your hard drive.

All laptop vendors give such a disk I think.

>software, and backup your OS before you put it on the internet (before the
>spyware, rootkits, viruses, and other malicious code [coming in via java,
>javascript, etc] get on the box and mess you up).

99.99% reliable protection of _all_ of the malware in Windows is achievable by following 4-5 simple rules. Same is with Linux or Mac OS, BTW.

Just read the stories of known Windows malware titles. SQL Slammer? sorry guys, do not expose the database to the public network, and _do install patches_. MSBlaster? just plain _do install patches_. Recent IE issues in some rarely-used components like some XML data access (I think they are used mostly by malware and not by useful code)? Turn on Data Execution Protection, which is on by default on server SKUs, and be safe.

And so on.

There is nothing technically bad in Windows which makes it a preferred thing for malware. From the technical side of things, Windows, Linux and Mac OS are around being the same about this.

--
Maxim S. Shatskih
Windows DDK MVP
maxim@storagecraft.com
http://www.storagecraft.com

== 7 of 19 ==
Date: Wed, Dec 31 2008 3:03 am
From: "Maxim S. Shatskih"

If the hardware title is _newer_ then the OS - then there will be a driver issue for sure, with any OS.

> Fortunately, however, there are hundreds, if not thousands of drivers in
> the Linux kernel and many more in other free software projects.

Go on setting up CUPS for a new cheap HP printer in any Linux or FreeBSD. A day of work. For FreeBSD, it is also an 1-2 hour recompile process usually.

> Here is a Linux developer dispelling various myths[0].

...and seeding anothers :-)

> which didn't put itself in that list). Now let's remove it. "Please tell
> us why you didn't like the software *opens window*"

This is a software vendor's issue and not the issue of Windows.

--
Maxim S. Shatskih
Windows DDK MVP
maxim@storagecraft.com
http://www.storagecraft.com

== 8 of 19 ==
Date: Wed, Dec 31 2008 4:31 am
From: "Dave"

> It would be nice, but I cannot hold my breath waiting for that fateful
> day. I believe that most folks use Windows at home because they were
> trained on it at work and/or it just came on their systems automatically.
> That is a huge paradigm to overcome; tons of inertia. While Linux might
> be running the server, Windows is on the machine that is looking at the
> user. To get enough corporations to dump Windows and retrain all their
> employees [at significant expense] on another OS in order to have enough
> momentum to get this going will be a huge and unlikely task, IMO.
> Tomes

What training? The IT department is already trained (they are supporting
the linux servers already). Linux is intuitive enough that any experienced
windows user should be able to figure it out (as a user, anyway) on their
own in just an hour or so of tinkering. No training required. -Dave

== 9 of 19 ==
Date: Wed, Dec 31 2008 4:39 am
From: "Dave"

>In most situations this is a wise choice.

>Innovations are only good if they produce new value. What new value is
>produced by switching the home PC >to Linux, given the fact that most Linux
>software are not-so-well made clones of Windows software (like KDE >to
>Windows shell, OO to MS Office and so on?)

Have you ever USED Open Office? It is superior to Microsoft Office in
almost every way, other than market share.

>As about the corporate network - saving money on software while losing it
>on 2-times-as-large IT department >>(and yes, the switch will require so) -
>is a bad idea.

You are talking out of your ass here. First, most of the servers are
running linux already. You shouldn't have to hire even a single employee
extra in the IT department if you want to switch the client systems to
linux. Depending on HOW MANY client systems you want to change over at a
single time, you might want to bring in an outside contractor to help for a
half-day or so with the installation. But this would be no more labor
intensive than if you were rolling out a new version of Windows. If you
don't care how fast the client machines get switched over, no outside help,
and no extra INSIDE help will be needed to facilitate the switch.

AFTER the switch to linux, you will probably want to DOWNSIZE the IT
department slightly. You will need fewer people to support the client
systems, as they will almost never need service, barring a true hardware
problem. -Dave

== 10 of 19 ==
Date: Wed, Dec 31 2008 5:24 am
From: "Pavel A."

Dear all, could you please exclude
microsoft.public.development.device.drivers from the follow-ups.

When we're in the blah-blah mood here, we'll come to your "misc" NGs.

Happy New Year!

Regards,
-- PA

== 11 of 19 ==
Date: Wed, Dec 31 2008 5:32 am
From: "Tomes"

"John Galt"...
> Tomes:
>> "Dave" ...
>>> >
>>>> Amen!
>>>> To avoid shooting themselves (and others) in the foot,
>>>> developers might want to think twice about using Windows as
>>>> a development platform. Instead, consider using Linux.
>>>> It's much more cost effective. :-)
>>>>
>>>> In this economy, management / everyone need to spend wisely.
>>>> Dumping M$ / Windows and going with Linux seems
>>>> like a wise choice for corporations / everyone.
>>>>
>>>> Do not wait until you see the coffin before crying.
>>>> Pass it on ...
>>>>
>>> Last I checked, most businesses were running linux on their servers
>>> already. It's only a matter of time until the client machines start
>>> running linux. At that point, most of the HOME computers (not used for
>>> business) will start converting to linux. -Dave
>> It would be nice, but I cannot hold my breath waiting for that fateful
>> day. I believe that most folks use Windows at home because they were
>> trained on it at work and/or it just came on their systems
>> automatically. That is a huge paradigm to overcome; tons of inertia.
>> While Linux might be running the server, Windows is on the machine that
>> is looking at the user. To get enough corporations to dump Windows and
>> retrain all their employees [at significant expense] on another OS in
>> order to have enough momentum to get this going will be a huge and
>> unlikely task, IMO.
>> Tomes
>
> Well, it's a task that nobody wants to budget for. In reality, 99% of
> all computer users in a business use nothing but (a) the simplest 10% of
> Office, and (b) application clients that run in a browser.
>
> This is simply fear of the unknown holding people back. An hour of
> familiarity training with Linux and its business as usual.
>
That fear of the unknown is a powerful force.
Tomes

== 12 of 19 ==
Date: Wed, Dec 31 2008 5:49 am
From: "Tomes"

"Maxim S. Shatskih" ...
>All laptop vendors give such a disk I think.

My Gateway laptop purchased last year had no such disks. My Dell purchased
a few years ago also had no such disks.
Tomes

== 13 of 19 ==
Date: Wed, Dec 31 2008 5:53 am
From: "Tomes"

"Dave"...
> Tomes...
>> It would be nice, but I cannot hold my breath waiting for that fateful
>> day. I believe that most folks use Windows at home because they were
>> trained on it at work and/or it just came on their systems automatically.
>> That is a huge paradigm to overcome; tons of inertia. While Linux might
>> be running the server, Windows is on the machine that is looking at the
>> user. To get enough corporations to dump Windows and retrain all their
>> employees [at significant expense] on another OS in order to have enough
>> momentum to get this going will be a huge and unlikely task, IMO.
>> Tomes
>
> What training? The IT department is already trained (they are supporting
> the linux servers already). Linux is intuitive enough that any
> experienced windows user should be able to figure it out (as a user,
> anyway) on their own in just an hour or so of tinkering. No training
> required. -Dave
The end user training. There will be a major fear factor in the end users
that would need to be addressed. One cannot just say 'here is it, figure it
out'. I saw this first hand when Union Carbide went to SAP from their
previous systems to address the year 200 (non)issue.
Tomes

== 14 of 19 ==
Date: Wed, Dec 31 2008 6:11 am
From: "Alexander Grigoriev"

This is NOT Microsoft decision not to give those disks. This is OEM's
decision. Blame HP and Dell, not MS.

"Tomes" <ask.me@here.net> wrote in message
news:gjft9d$sdn$1@news.motzarella.org...
> "Maxim S. Shatskih" ...
>>All laptop vendors give such a disk I think.
>
> My Gateway laptop purchased last year had no such disks. My Dell
> purchased a few years ago also had no such disks.
> Tomes

== 15 of 19 ==
Date: Wed, Dec 31 2008 6:21 am
From: Tom

Does microsoft.public.development.device-drivers mind that this
discussion is here? I suspect they're either annoyed that troll-like
threads such as this are around and/or they're having fun laughing at it.

Maxim S. Shatskih wrote:
> Some features in Linux (i.e. SMB protocol client) are by far slower.
Citation needed.

> They still have no stable (only experimental) crash-proof journaling
> filesystem, and so on.
Again, citation needed. Is ext3 considered crash-proof?

> "Stable" in the absense of 3rd party software only, only if you use the
> out-of-the-box software included to the distro. Well, Windows+MS Office
> and no other software_ is also very stable. I would even say that
> Windows+a bunch of Microsoft-only softtware on it - is amazingly
> stable.
I agree that Windows by itself is stable. It seems only when bad
applications are installed that bad things start to happen.

>> but they are also easier (MUCH!) and faster to
>> install, and easier to use, than windows.
>
> Wrong. All Linux GUI software (probably with the exception of the Konqueror
> web browser) suffers from lots of tiny misfeatures.
If you think Konqueror has no tiny misfeatures then you're wrong.

> Now let's consider games on Linux. Sorry guys.
Yep. This isn't the Linux's fault, though this is still a point against
why someone would use Linux.

> Now let's consider .NET business apps on Linux. Sorry guys.
Mmm, I'm not sure if this is a particularly valid point, given I don't
know how easy of a job the Mono people have. Still, Mono exists
(although it only supports upto and including .NET 2.0)

> Now let's consider the front-end of any business/accounting software on
> Linux. Sorry guys.
I don't know.

> Now let's consider the certified Oracle for Linux. Sorry guys, _this_
> Linux distro (RHEL) costs more then Windows Server.
I don't know the details of this either. If you bought it from RHEL
would it include support? Does support come with Windows Server? If
support comes with both, which support is better?

> These tales were spoken about since early 2000ies.
Just because those tales were around 8 years ago doesn't make them false
now. As expected, Linux has changed a lot since then.

> Starting from around 2004, I see the new attitude arising - a person tried
> Linux, a person understood that it's nasty, a person returned to
> Windows _with the knowlegde that Windows is not perfect (but Linux is
> even worse).
This isn't particularly useful. In 2004 Linux wasn't as good as it is
now. If you have seen that behaviour recently (where I claim Linux is
much better) then it still isn't particularly useful: Which distribution
did they try? Was that person trying Linux with an open mind?

If you provided reasons for their dislike then someone might be able to
comment on them.

> *snip Apple stuff*
Meh.

> Linux: for tinkering fans, for professionals more concerned about mastering
> some schizoid language syntax and not to do the job done.
If you're talking about perl (or even python) then it's a shame you feel
that way. Perl, though not suited to every job, is very suited to some.

I believe it'd be a good idea for you to learn more about these
languages to see why people use them. If you're not willing to do that,
I'd like to know your reasons.

I hope that reason isn't due to shortsightedness.

> Lots of distros different in tiny features - this difference causes
> issues and does not bring any value.
If you believe that's the main feature in how Linux distributions differ
then you're opinion on Linux doesn't count for much because it would
seem that you don't know much about it.

Linux distributions differ in philosophy.

The difference does cause issues, but they don't cause particularly
noticeable differences. For the end-user they'll be using one
distribution and these differences will be sorted by the distribution
developers.

> The community attitude of "hey moron, go away!".
There are places designed for newbies to ask their questions (Ubuntu
forums have subforums for new users, for example).

If you wander into an IRC channel for a program and ask a developer a
question which is answered in documentation (which they typed up), don't
be surprised if they sound harsh in their response.

Here are some advantages using Linux has for businesses. I'd like you to
comment on each of them:
- Free software in the sense of having the source and being able to
change it. This is useful because if a company finds a flaw in a
piece of software, they then have the power to fix it themselves
(or hire somebody to fix it for them) rather than wait for a
single entity, Microsoft in this case, to fix it. Microsoft may
not even consider it a bug. What's this company to do in that
case?
- I'm not sure of the details, nor do I have the time to look them
up, but IIRC there are some nasty bits in the Windows XP EULA,
which allow Microsoft access to that machine.
It is irresponsible (and risks being subject to the Data
Protection Act) for a company to allow another entity access to
their machines/data.
- Cost. Definitely in some cases it's cheaper to use free software.
(Take OOo.org vs MS Office. Sure, MS Office may be better and
faster, but a company may decide that the slower and
less-featureful OOo.org is more suited to their needs, given it
costs nothing).

I know there is some debate over total cost of ownership. I don't
have many facts so I won't argue about it.

- Security. Again, I don't have many facts so I can't comment much
on it. Here is a report[0] from The Register, however.

Please comment on each point.

[0]
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/10/22/security_report_windows_vs_linux/
--
Tom

== 16 of 19 ==
Date: Wed, Dec 31 2008 6:32 am
From: Tom

Maxim S. Shatskih wrote:
> If the hardware title is _newer_ then the OS - then there will be a
> driver issue for sure, with any OS.
Yes, that's true. However, Ubuntu is released every 6 months. Windows's
release cycle is much longer.

> Go on setting up CUPS for a new cheap HP printer in any Linux or FreeBSD.
> A day of work. For FreeBSD, it is also an 1-2 hour recompile process usually.
I'll need a citation for me to take that comment seriously.

>> Here is a Linux developer dispelling various myths[0].
> ...and seeding anothers :-)
Give reasons for what you mean and I might be able to comment on them.

>> which didn't put itself in that list). Now let's remove it. "Please tell
>> us why you didn't like the software *opens window*"
>
> This is a software vendor's issue and not the issue of Windows.
This argument isn't just about Windows (by itself) vs Linux. We're
talking about both operating systems being as they would day-to-day.

If you want new software on Windows, that is the process you have to go
through. Sure, the developer is at fault for having a nasty
uninstallation process.

On, say, Ubuntu, however, if you stick to using the repositories (which
is recommended and possible, I do it) then installation and
uninstallation is guaranteed to be free of these issues.

This is because Windows does not have a package manager as powerful and
extensive (in terms of number of good quality packages), which
fundamentally (I believe) is because the software that people usually
use on Windows is non-free and has distribution problems. Since most of
the software an Ubuntu user would use is free (i.e. is DFSG or
GPL-compatible) then distribution problems aren't an issue and the
repositories can (and do) contain many good quality software.

Even software with distribution problems can be handled nicely by
Ubuntu's package manager.

Now, food time for me, I'm hungry. :)

--
Tom

== 17 of 19 ==
Date: Wed, Dec 31 2008 6:32 am
From: "Don Burn"

Personally I am annoyed, I suspect it would be deleted but this is a holiday
week and the people who administer the list are on vacation. All this has
done, is stop me from checking this list as often to answer questions.

As far as the original cause of this, the thing is a patent! Companies get
patents all the time on things, that does not mean they put them into
production. Both IBM and Oracle I believe have patents in this area, and
IIRC one of the companies Red Hat acquired was working on similar stuff.

If you guys want to talk conspiracy move to Roswell and look for aliens, if
you want to argue the merits of various software, find an appropriate forum,
and the least you can do is quote real studies (there are enough conflicting
ones out there that you can still keep the debate going).

--
Don Burn (MVP, Windows DDK)
Windows Filesystem and Driver Consulting
Website: http://www.windrvr.com
Blog: http://msmvps.com/blogs/WinDrvr
Remove StopSpam to reply

"Tom" <tom@spam.please> wrote in message
news:XdL6l.89887$oT4.6339@newsfe23.ams2...
> Does microsoft.public.development.device-drivers mind that this
> discussion is here? I suspect they're either annoyed that troll-like
> threads such as this are around and/or they're having fun laughing at it.
>
> Maxim S. Shatskih wrote:
>> Some features in Linux (i.e. SMB protocol client) are by far slower.
> Citation needed.
>
>> They still have no stable (only experimental) crash-proof journaling
>> filesystem, and so on.
> Again, citation needed. Is ext3 considered crash-proof?
>
>> "Stable" in the absense of 3rd party software only, only if you use the
>> out-of-the-box software included to the distro. Well, Windows+MS Office
>> and no other software_ is also very stable. I would even say that
>> Windows+a bunch of Microsoft-only softtware on it - is amazingly
>> stable.
> I agree that Windows by itself is stable. It seems only when bad
> applications are installed that bad things start to happen.
>
>>> but they are also easier (MUCH!) and faster to
>>> install, and easier to use, than windows.
>>
>> Wrong. All Linux GUI software (probably with the exception of the
>> Konqueror
>> web browser) suffers from lots of tiny misfeatures.
> If you think Konqueror has no tiny misfeatures then you're wrong.
>
>> Now let's consider games on Linux. Sorry guys.
> Yep. This isn't the Linux's fault, though this is still a point against
> why someone would use Linux.
>
>> Now let's consider .NET business apps on Linux. Sorry guys.
> Mmm, I'm not sure if this is a particularly valid point, given I don't
> know how easy of a job the Mono people have. Still, Mono exists
> (although it only supports upto and including .NET 2.0)
>
>> Now let's consider the front-end of any business/accounting software on
>> Linux. Sorry guys.
> I don't know.
>
>> Now let's consider the certified Oracle for Linux. Sorry guys, _this_
>> Linux distro (RHEL) costs more then Windows Server.
> I don't know the details of this either. If you bought it from RHEL
> would it include support? Does support come with Windows Server? If
> support comes with both, which support is better?
>
>> These tales were spoken about since early 2000ies.
> Just because those tales were around 8 years ago doesn't make them false
> now. As expected, Linux has changed a lot since then.
>
>> Starting from around 2004, I see the new attitude arising - a person
>> tried
>> Linux, a person understood that it's nasty, a person returned to
>> Windows _with the knowlegde that Windows is not perfect (but Linux is
>> even worse).
> This isn't particularly useful. In 2004 Linux wasn't as good as it is
> now. If you have seen that behaviour recently (where I claim Linux is
> much better) then it still isn't particularly useful: Which distribution
> did they try? Was that person trying Linux with an open mind?
>
> If you provided reasons for their dislike then someone might be able to
> comment on them.
>
>> *snip Apple stuff*
> Meh.
>
>> Linux: for tinkering fans, for professionals more concerned about
>> mastering
>> some schizoid language syntax and not to do the job done.
> If you're talking about perl (or even python) then it's a shame you feel
> that way. Perl, though not suited to every job, is very suited to some.
>
> I believe it'd be a good idea for you to learn more about these
> languages to see why people use them. If you're not willing to do that,
> I'd like to know your reasons.
>
> I hope that reason isn't due to shortsightedness.
>
>> Lots of distros different in tiny features - this difference causes
>> issues and does not bring any value.
> If you believe that's the main feature in how Linux distributions differ
> then you're opinion on Linux doesn't count for much because it would
> seem that you don't know much about it.
>
> Linux distributions differ in philosophy.
>
> The difference does cause issues, but they don't cause particularly
> noticeable differences. For the end-user they'll be using one
> distribution and these differences will be sorted by the distribution
> developers.
>
>> The community attitude of "hey moron, go away!".
> There are places designed for newbies to ask their questions (Ubuntu
> forums have subforums for new users, for example).
>
> If you wander into an IRC channel for a program and ask a developer a
> question which is answered in documentation (which they typed up), don't
> be surprised if they sound harsh in their response.
>
>
>
>
> Here are some advantages using Linux has for businesses. I'd like you to
> comment on each of them:
> - Free software in the sense of having the source and being able to
> change it. This is useful because if a company finds a flaw in a
> piece of software, they then have the power to fix it themselves
> (or hire somebody to fix it for them) rather than wait for a
> single entity, Microsoft in this case, to fix it. Microsoft may
> not even consider it a bug. What's this company to do in that
> case?
> - I'm not sure of the details, nor do I have the time to look them
> up, but IIRC there are some nasty bits in the Windows XP EULA,
> which allow Microsoft access to that machine.
> It is irresponsible (and risks being subject to the Data
> Protection Act) for a company to allow another entity access to
> their machines/data.
> - Cost. Definitely in some cases it's cheaper to use free software.
> (Take OOo.org vs MS Office. Sure, MS Office may be better and
> faster, but a company may decide that the slower and
> less-featureful OOo.org is more suited to their needs, given it
> costs nothing).
>
> I know there is some debate over total cost of ownership. I don't
> have many facts so I won't argue about it.
>
> - Security. Again, I don't have many facts so I can't comment much
> on it. Here is a report[0] from The Register, however.
>
>
> Please comment on each point.
>
> [0]
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/10/22/security_report_windows_vs_linux/
> --
> Tom

== 18 of 19 ==
Date: Wed, Dec 31 2008 6:55 am
From: Tom

Maxim S. Shatskih wrote:
>> everything I needed to do with what I had, and ii) I refuse to help bill
>> gates get even richer)
>
> OK, help Linus Torvalds or Ingo Molnar get richer :-)
I suspect his point was that Gates is ridiculously rich (i.e. top 5).
Linus and Igno aren't.

I don't see why this is a reason though either.

> For me, this is not an issue anyway. There are always some High Guys,
> some elite, some bosses, and they are always rich. Being the classic
> of human society, this does not touch me at all, at least until they
> start to subjugate the usual people (which Bill does _not_).
Arguable they do due to the anti-competitive behaviour (see various
lawsuits).

> There is nothing technically bad in Windows which makes it a preferred
> thing for malware. From the technical side of things, Windows, Linux
> and Mac OS are around being the same about this.

An extract from The Register's Linux vs Windows Security Report[0]:

> Finally, we also include a brief overview of relevant conceptual
> differences between Windows and Linux, to offer an insight into why
> Windows tends to be more vulnerable to attacks at both server and
> desktop, and why Linux is inherently more secure.

I would read the report again and try to formulate a precise argument
against your claim that "from the technical side of things, Windows and
Linux are around the being the same about this", but I'm starting to
wonder the point of this whole discussion.

From a glance it looks to at least talk about the response time for
patches. If it's true that Windows responds to problems slower than
Linux (this is a total abuse of the word "Linux". I should probably use
"free software community" but let's ignore that) then that would be one
reason malware authors target Windows.

(I ate btw :))

--
Tom

== 19 of 19 ==
Date: Wed, Dec 31 2008 6:59 am
From: Tom

Don Burn wrote:
> Personally I am annoyed, I suspect it would be deleted but this is a holiday
> week and the people who administer the list are on vacation. All this has
> done, is stop me from checking this list as often to answer questions.
>
> As far as the original cause of this, the thing is a patent! Companies get
> patents all the time on things, that does not mean they put them into
> production. Both IBM and Oracle I believe have patents in this area, and
> IIRC one of the companies Red Hat acquired was working on similar stuff.
>
> If you guys want to talk conspiracy move to Roswell and look for aliens, if
> you want to argue the merits of various software, find an appropriate forum,
> and the least you can do is quote real studies (there are enough conflicting
> ones out there that you can still keep the debate going).
>
>

Sorry. I'll stop posting to microsoft.public.development.device.drivers
about this then... which leaves misc.invest.stocks and
misc.consumers.frugal-living ... how is this on-topic at all? :\

Regards

--
Tom

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Obama birth/school records found in Jakarta
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/a9dcbec05844fdda?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Wed, Dec 31 2008 4:35 am
From: "Jon von Leipzig@mayday.com"

On Dec 29, 4:49 am, Al Nakba <williamhubb...@bluebottle.com> wrote:
> On Dec 27, 12:57 pm, "Frank Arthur" <A...@Arthurian.com> wrote:

>
> his father flew the coop but obama was reared by frank davis..

I suspect Davis is his real father, or even Malcom X. Look at their
pix.
Barry resembles Malcom, more than the other suspects.
(something fishy about Stanley, she was enrolled at U Wash & U of
Hawaii at the same time)

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Wed, Dec 31 2008 4:50 am
From: "Jon von Leipzig@mayday.com"

On Dec 30, 7:36 pm, Dennis <dg...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 16:19:43 -0800, Bryan Olson
>
>
>
> <fakeaddr...@nowhere.org> wrote:
> >Marsha wrote:
> >> Bryan Olson wrote:
> >>> JonL wrote:
>
> >>>> <snip>
> >>>> In the litigation business, one quickly learns that if somebody has a
> >>>> document that will be good for them, they can't wait to give it to you.
>
> >>> Been there; done that.
>
> >>> http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html
>
> >> Didn't Obama receive funds from Annenburg at one time?
>
> >Either way, it has nothing to do with his birth certificate. Someone
> >brought up the documentation. There it is.
>
> Really? Then looking at the document posted, maybe you can tell me
> which hospital he was born at and who the attending physician was.
> The official long form birth certificate should have that information.
> Mine does.
>

This Certificate of Live Birth is not the same thing as BC. In Hawaii
the COLB can be issued for a live humanoid born elsewhere.

The fix is in, anyway. The Supremes aren't about to thwart the will of
the (BIG) people.
He's already been pre-approved by Zbigniew B, (representing the
globalist Trilateral Commission, and the
Rockefeller Empire), and the Israeli lobby, and no doubt passed his
audition at the Bilderberg meeting in Va., last summer.

ps: Zbigniew's previous Manchurian Candidate, Jimmy Carter,
did so well, maybe Obummer will do just as well.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Binary Newsserver needed.
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/9104c76d877203e4?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Dec 31 2008 5:40 am
From: "mailbox24@gmail.com"

I do value the opinions of posters in this group. You have protected
me from several mistakes in the past by your posts and so I am
wondering if you have had any experience with the NNTPjunkie Usenet
service.

Your comments are greatly appreciated. Thank you.

==============================================================================

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Frugal Living

Blog Archive

Wednesday, December 31, 2008

misc.consumers.frugal-living - 25 new messages in 5 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living - 25 new messages in 6 topics - digest