Frugal Living: 23 new messages in 9 topics

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

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Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Math on the bailout doesn't add up...
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/3213ff522966e10e?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 13 2008 4:59 pm
From: Michael Coburn

On Mon, 13 Oct 2008 23:09:41 +0000, habshi wrote:

> If he had not voted against investigating Fannie May and Freddie Mac two
> years ago , when McCain tried to get it done, these trillions of dollars
> would not have been taken by the crooks. He doesnt deserve to be
> elected.

LIE! The McCain fish story bill was never debated or voted outside of
committee. Obama was nor any other Democrat not on the committee was
ever given a "vote".

http://desertbeacon.blogspot.com/2008/09/ultimate-fish-story-john-
mccain.html

> http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/bruce-anderson/bruce-
anderson-yes-the-tories-should-blame-brown-959312.htmlIn
>
> In the late 1990s, a Democrat-controlled Congress virtually
> compelled US banks to advance mortgages irrespective of the applicants'
> financial status. Racial factors played a role in this; a large
> percentage of sub-prime borrowers were Black or Hispanic. But everything
> was underpinned by economic optimism. The assumption was that the
> economy would just keep on growing, so that even the poorest families
> could have their stake in the American dream. Greed did kick in. Higher
> lending did boost bankers' incomes, otherwise they might have protested
> more about being locked in to imprudent practices, and there was a
> further factor. Over the years, banks had come to assume that any
> inter-bank transaction was gold-plated: that all bank assets were
> secure. That should not have applied to the market in sub-prime lo

The "Community Reinvestment Act" was a nit:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_Reinvestment_Act
The Act requires the appropriate federal financial supervisory agencies
to encourage regulated financial institutions to meet the credit needs of
the local communities in which they are chartered, consistent with safe
and sound operation.
---------------------------------------------------------------

The problems were not in depressed neighborhoods targeted by this act.
The problems were in places that the "would be" titans of real estate
speculation did their "flipping".

== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 13 2008 9:34 pm
From: Bob Brock

On Mon, 13 Oct 2008 23:09:41 GMT, habshi@anony.com (habshi) wrote:

> If he had not voted against investigating Fannie May and
>Freddie Mac two years ago , when McCain tried to get it done, these
>trillions of dollars would not have been taken by the crooks.
>He doesnt deserve to be elected.
>
>http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/bruce-anderson/bruce-anderson-yes-the-tories-should-blame-brown-959312.htmlIn
>
> In the late 1990s, a Democrat-controlled Congress virtually
>compelled US banks to advance mortgages irrespective of the
>applicants' financial status. Racial factors played a role in this; a
>large percentage of sub-prime borrowers were Black or Hispanic. But
>everything was underpinned by economic optimism. The assumption was
>that the economy would just keep on growing, so that even the poorest
>families could have their stake in the American dream.
>Greed did kick in. Higher lending did boost bankers' incomes,
>otherwise they might have protested more about being locked in to
>imprudent practices, and there was a further factor. Over the years,
>banks had come to assume that any inter-bank transaction was
>gold-plated: that all bank assets were secure. That should not have
>applied to the market in sub-prime lo

Are you sure that the Democrats controlled the Congress in the late
1990's? For some reason, I was thinking that Newt Gingrich (R) was
the Speaker of the House and Trent Lott (R) was Senate Majority
Leader.

Is that the Democrat controlled Congress that you are talking about?

== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 13 2008 9:39 pm
From: Michael Coburn

On Tue, 14 Oct 2008 00:34:54 -0400, Bob Brock wrote:

> On Mon, 13 Oct 2008 23:09:41 GMT, habshi@anony.com (habshi) wrote:
>
>> If he had not voted against investigating Fannie May and
>>Freddie Mac two years ago , when McCain tried to get it done, these
>>trillions of dollars would not have been taken by the crooks. He doesnt
>>deserve to be elected.
>>
>>http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/bruce-anderson/bruce-
anderson-yes-the-tories-should-blame-brown-959312.htmlIn
>>
>> In the late 1990s, a Democrat-controlled Congress virtually
>>compelled US banks to advance mortgages irrespective of the applicants'
>>financial status. Racial factors played a role in this; a large
>>percentage of sub-prime borrowers were Black or Hispanic. But everything
>>was underpinned by economic optimism. The assumption was that the
>>economy would just keep on growing, so that even the poorest families
>>could have their stake in the American dream. Greed did kick in. Higher
>>lending did boost bankers' incomes, otherwise they might have protested
>>more about being locked in to imprudent practices, and there was a
>>further factor. Over the years, banks had come to assume that any
>>inter-bank transaction was gold-plated: that all bank assets were
>>secure. That should not have applied to the market in sub-prime lo
>
> Are you sure that the Democrats controlled the Congress in the late
> 1990's? For some reason, I was thinking that Newt Gingrich (R) was the
> Speaker of the House and Trent Lott (R) was Senate Majority Leader.
>
> Is that the Democrat controlled Congress that you are talking about?

Yeah... That's the one...

== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 13 2008 9:50 pm
From: Bob Brock

On 14 Oct 2008 04:39:35 GMT, Michael Coburn <mikcob@verizon.net>
wrote:

>On Tue, 14 Oct 2008 00:34:54 -0400, Bob Brock wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 13 Oct 2008 23:09:41 GMT, habshi@anony.com (habshi) wrote:
>>
>>> If he had not voted against investigating Fannie May and
>>>Freddie Mac two years ago , when McCain tried to get it done, these
>>>trillions of dollars would not have been taken by the crooks. He doesnt
>>>deserve to be elected.
>>>
>>>http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/bruce-anderson/bruce-
>anderson-yes-the-tories-should-blame-brown-959312.htmlIn
>>>
>>> In the late 1990s, a Democrat-controlled Congress virtually
>>>compelled US banks to advance mortgages irrespective of the applicants'
>>>financial status. Racial factors played a role in this; a large
>>>percentage of sub-prime borrowers were Black or Hispanic. But everything
>>>was underpinned by economic optimism. The assumption was that the
>>>economy would just keep on growing, so that even the poorest families
>>>could have their stake in the American dream. Greed did kick in. Higher
>>>lending did boost bankers' incomes, otherwise they might have protested
>>>more about being locked in to imprudent practices, and there was a
>>>further factor. Over the years, banks had come to assume that any
>>>inter-bank transaction was gold-plated: that all bank assets were
>>>secure. That should not have applied to the market in sub-prime lo
>>
>> Are you sure that the Democrats controlled the Congress in the late
>> 1990's? For some reason, I was thinking that Newt Gingrich (R) was the
>> Speaker of the House and Trent Lott (R) was Senate Majority Leader.
>>
>> Is that the Democrat controlled Congress that you are talking about?
>
>Yeah... That's the one...

That's what I was thinking.

== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 13 2008 10:23 pm
From: Curly Surmudgeon

On Tue, 14 Oct 2008 00:50:10 -0400, Bob Brock wrote:

> On 14 Oct 2008 04:39:35 GMT, Michael Coburn <mikcob@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 14 Oct 2008 00:34:54 -0400, Bob Brock wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 13 Oct 2008 23:09:41 GMT, habshi@anony.com (habshi) wrote:
>>>
>>>> If he had not voted against investigating Fannie May and
>>>>Freddie Mac two years ago , when McCain tried to get it done, these
>>>>trillions of dollars would not have been taken by the crooks. He doesnt
>>>>deserve to be elected.
>>>>
>>>>http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/bruce-anderson/bruce-
>>anderson-yes-the-tories-should-blame-brown-959312.htmlIn
>>>>
>>>> In the late 1990s, a Democrat-controlled Congress virtually
>>>>compelled US banks to advance mortgages irrespective of the applicants'
>>>>financial status. Racial factors played a role in this; a large
>>>>percentage of sub-prime borrowers were Black or Hispanic. But
>>>>everything was underpinned by economic optimism. The assumption was
>>>>that the economy would just keep on growing, so that even the poorest
>>>>families could have their stake in the American dream. Greed did kick
>>>>in. Higher lending did boost bankers' incomes, otherwise they might
>>>>have protested more about being locked in to imprudent practices, and
>>>>there was a further factor. Over the years, banks had come to assume
>>>>that any inter-bank transaction was gold-plated: that all bank assets
>>>>were secure. That should not have applied to the market in sub-prime lo
>>>
>>> Are you sure that the Democrats controlled the Congress in the late
>>> 1990's? For some reason, I was thinking that Newt Gingrich (R) was the
>>> Speaker of the House and Trent Lott (R) was Senate Majority Leader.
>>>
>>> Is that the Democrat controlled Congress that you are talking about?
>>
>>Yeah... That's the one...
>
> That's what I was thinking.

We all know that a bare majority is insufficient to over ride a veto or
filibuster. Even relatively simple issues can fail due to attendance and
regional issues which are not judged upon by party lines.

Deadlocks require a supermajority or, as we've seen during the Bush
Administration, judicial application of terror to push through legislation.

Even if the majority party had a bare majority that alone doesn't
guarantee that the minority party can't submarine many bills.

--
Regards, Curly
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Remember to use birth control when nailing the underage daughter
of an anti-abortion VP candidate during an election year.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

................................................................
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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Wholesale Nokia N95(8GB)=180USD,Nikon D300=400USD,Apple MAC BOOK=650USD-
1600USD(Made in china Gold Member)
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/e5ec3af360d63306?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 13 2008 6:04 pm
From: cicitrade01@yahoo.cn

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==============================================================================
TOPIC: My prognosis... what is real 'value' and what drives recovery
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/0c1bfa4edb0b27b8?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 6 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 13 2008 6:34 pm
From: Tony

So shall it be written in the history books the downfall of todays'
society and economies are fucking immigrants. You don't have to look
farther than the country i live in ... CanaDUH. We were once third in the
entire world in productivity now we rank near dead last with pakistan and
india. Why because Trudeau opened the floodgates to these bastards who
destroyed my country. Similarly this has happened to America but to a
lesser extent as they took in less fucking immigrants so their
productivity is still relatively high. America's only hope is to deport
all immigrants or anything that looks like an immigrant. An immigrant has
inborn traits that makes them lazy, lying, leadweight maggots.

phil scott wrote:

> we are habituated to think in terms of money, currency.. denominated
> value..and for good reason, its all we have to trade with..so we get
> value confused with these denominations.... and we are forced to
> trade and do business in these denominations...
>
> so we say things like 'what is the value of a stock' and we mean in
> terms of the bogus currency.
>
> its difficult to even frame real value in this situation... and yes
> real value will indeed tank as an economy dependent on currency goes
> into collapse... no business.... the factory is not just worthless it
> becomes a liability.
>
> We have seen a spectacular solution though in Brazil recently... as
> factorys were closing the employees offered to take them over... they
> did...and with the rip off management gone, and able to barter for
> wages and goods etc... brazil recovered... someone posted links to
> that last week.
>
> which takes us to the issue of what IS real value:
>
> For an individual it is his skill set, intelligence and discipline in
> taking care of his base of production..his brain and body..his
> health...and living in a way that he cant be taxed to total ruins by a
> desperate and collapsing govt.... that is not to say the approach
> is a cake walk. it isnt. it requires brains, and working...smart
> working..not for a starvation wage paid by some slug who refuses to
> work.
>
> those willing to work can make it in a culture with a built up
> infrastructure such as our own, not in the cities necessarily, but
> they sure can in the smaller towns.....
>
> taking a look at the net real tax base...its well over 80% in the USA
> on the middle class...did you know that?
>
> of course not, we are told its 15% state 20% federal... after lying
> and fudging the tax is only half that, or less.....
> sorry....bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzt.... incorrecto.
>
> You are paying 5x for food, medical care, gas, and services in the US
> as compared to less governed countries because we *all pay taxes..and
> hidden taxes, that drives all prices to these certifiably higher
> figures...a plumber charging you 80 dollars an hour would be 20
> dollars without his need to pay his doctor 500 dollars an hour...
> these costs compound,
>
> driving these prices at the base is govt bloat and a corrupt finanical
> over class.... when that evaporates as it did in Brasil, there is a
> massive resurgence....but only after govt collapses, dissapears by 80%
> or more....and ceases its blood sucking....
>
> (the nation has lost is premier condition as the worlds only large
> scale industrial manufacturer..that bailed us out of the great
> depression (and war to ignite it)....thats vastly diminished now, and
> the rest of the world is now our industrialized competition.)....
>
> No nation in the history of the earth has ever done anything but age
> (260 years for most give or take just a few years) go corrupt, start
> wars in an attempt to survive, then get counter attacked... then
> die. Not a single exception... they reboot a generation or two
> later in many cases though... whole different set of rules.
>
> the reboot lasts about 260 years.... the USA is headed into its crash/
> burn and reboot cycle...
>
> However, given our killer infrastructure it should not take the
> historic usual generation or two of starvation to dig out... I predict
> maybe 5 years of tough times (but fed well because of our factory
> farms)... then only 10 to 20 years to restablish a somewhat lush
> economy... not bad.. except for the lowest economic class, those are
> always screwed regardless.. a natural phenomena...some are simply
> unable..or abused to oblivion etc.
>
> Recent precidents are the rebooted USSR, that went fast even with less
> infrastructure than we have in the US..and japan..with killer
> industrial infrastructure but need to import raw materials, fuel and
> food massively..still their reboot while 10 years under way, has not
> led to total ruin.
>
> Phil scott

--
The Grandmaster of the CyberFROG

Come get your ticket to CyberFROG city

No, I just decided not to play your silly game is all. *Some* of us know
proper manners

Very few. I used to take calls from *rank* noobs,

Hamster isn't a newsreader it's a mistake!

El-Gonzo Jackson FROGS both me and Chuckcar

Using my technical prowess and computer abilities to answer questions
beyond the realm of understandability

Regards Tony... Making usenet better for everyone everyday

== 2 of 6 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 13 2008 6:46 pm
From: phil scott

On Oct 13, 6:34 pm, Tony <T...@TheDeli.Sandwich> wrote:
> So shall it be written in the history books the downfall of todays'
> society and economies are fucking immigrants. You don't have to look
> farther than the country i live in ... CanaDUH. We were once third in the
> entire world in productivity now we rank near dead last with pakistan and
> india. Why because Trudeau opened the floodgates to these bastards who
> destroyed my country. Similarly this has happened to America but to a
> lesser extent as they took in less fucking immigrants so their
> productivity is still relatively high. America's only hope is to deport
> all immigrants or anything that looks like an immigrant. An immigrant has
> inborn traits that makes them lazy, lying, leadweight maggots.
>
>
>
>
>
> phil scott wrote:
> > we are habituated to think in terms of money, currency.. denominated
> > value..and for good reason, its all we have to trade with..so we get
> > value confused with these denominations.... and we are forced to
> > trade and do business in these denominations...
>
> > so we say things like 'what is the value of a stock' and we mean in
> > terms of the bogus currency.
>
> > its difficult to even frame real value in this situation... and yes
> > real value will indeed tank as an economy dependent on currency goes
> > into collapse... no business.... the factory is not just worthless it
> > becomes a liability.
>
> > We have seen a spectacular solution though in Brazil recently... as
> > factorys were closing the employees offered to take them over... they
> > did...and with the rip off management gone, and able to barter for
> > wages and goods etc... brazil recovered... someone posted links to
> > that last week.
>
> > which takes us to the issue of what IS real value:
>
> > For an individual it is his skill set, intelligence and discipline in
> > taking care of his base of production..his brain and body..his
> > health...and living in a way that he cant be taxed to total ruins by a
> > desperate and collapsing govt.... that is not to say the approach
> > is a cake walk. it isnt. it requires brains, and working...smart
> > working..not for a starvation wage paid by some slug who refuses to
> > work.
>
> > those willing to work can make it in a culture with a built up
> > infrastructure such as our own, not in the cities necessarily, but
> > they sure can in the smaller towns.....
>
> > taking a look at the net real tax base...its well over 80% in the USA
> > on the middle class...did you know that?
>
> > of course not, we are told its 15% state 20% federal... after lying
> > and fudging the tax is only half that, or less.....
> > sorry....bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzt.... incorrecto.
>
> > You are paying 5x for food, medical care, gas, and services in the US
> > as compared to less governed countries because we *all pay taxes..and
> > hidden taxes, that drives all prices to these certifiably higher
> > figures...a plumber charging you 80 dollars an hour would be 20
> > dollars without his need to pay his doctor 500 dollars an hour...
> > these costs compound,
>
> > driving these prices at the base is govt bloat and a corrupt finanical
> > over class.... when that evaporates as it did in Brasil, there is a
> > massive resurgence....but only after govt collapses, dissapears by 80%
> > or more....and ceases its blood sucking....
>
> > (the nation has lost is premier condition as the worlds only large
> > scale industrial manufacturer..that bailed us out of the great
> > depression (and war to ignite it)....thats vastly diminished now, and
> > the rest of the world is now our industrialized competition.)....
>
> > No nation in the history of the earth has ever done anything but age
> > (260 years for most give or take just a few years) go corrupt, start
> > wars in an attempt to survive, then get counter attacked... then
> > die. Not a single exception... they reboot a generation or two
> > later in many cases though... whole different set of rules.
>
> > the reboot lasts about 260 years.... the USA is headed into its crash/
> > burn and reboot cycle...
>
> > However, given our killer infrastructure it should not take the
> > historic usual generation or two of starvation to dig out... I predict
> > maybe 5 years of tough times (but fed well because of our factory
> > farms)... then only 10 to 20 years to restablish a somewhat lush
> > economy... not bad.. except for the lowest economic class, those are
> > always screwed regardless.. a natural phenomena...some are simply
> > unable..or abused to oblivion etc.
>
> > Recent precidents are the rebooted USSR, that went fast even with less
> > infrastructure than we have in the US..and japan..with killer
> > industrial infrastructure but need to import raw materials, fuel and
> > food massively..still their reboot while 10 years under way, has not
> > led to total ruin.
>
> > Phil scott
>
> --
> The Grandmaster of the CyberFROG
>
> Come get your ticket to CyberFROG city
>
> No, I just decided not to play your silly game is all. *Some* of us know
> proper manners
>
> Very few. I used to take calls from *rank* noobs,
>
> Hamster isn't a newsreader it's a mistake!
>
> El-Gonzo Jackson FROGS both me and Chuckcar
>
> Using my technical prowess and computer abilities to answer questions
> beyond the realm of understandability
>
> Regards Tony... Making usenet better for everyone everyday- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

there are several factors.... it is true that an inrush of cheap slave
labor from undeveloped countries, along with wars etc mark the end
phase in any national life cycle... thats because bloat of govt has
over taxed the native people into non breeding status, and to fund
govt, fuel the economy slave labor is needed...a degradation of the
culture however.

Here is a brief notion on the source of another perhaps over riding
factor...

" The origins of paper money can be traced to receipts that goldsmiths
provided to their customers, who would leave their gold with a
goldsmith for safekeeping. Centuries ago goldsmiths began giving out
receipts for the gold that they safeguarded, and people soon learned
that the receipts were more useful for business transactions than
heavy amounts of gold. Some enterprising goldsmith figured out that it
was not necessary to maintain a supply of gold equal to all the
receipts issued, because all the customers would never come to claim
their gold at the same time. Because large amounts of gold weren't
necessary to ensure the utility of receipts, the goldsmith was able to
issue many times as many receipts as he had gold in his vault, and the
fractional reserve system was born. Since goldsmiths began to loan
gold and receipts at interest, the system of "debt money" was born in
which customers had to pay back more money (receipts) than were in
circulationthus ensuring that the community as a whole would always
be in debt to the goldsmith.

end quote

the goldsmith was the original Rothchild...now owning most of the
worlds wealth by proxy.. gates and buffet not even in the running.

Phil scott

== 3 of 6 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 13 2008 7:35 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

Tony <Tony@TheDeli.Sandwich> wrote:

> So shall it be written in the history books the downfall of
> todays' society and economies are fucking immigrants.

What about the immigrants that dont fuck much ?

> You don't have to look
> farther than the country i live in ... CanaDUH. We were once third in
> the entire world in productivity now we rank near dead last with
> pakistan and india. Why because Trudeau opened the floodgates to
> these bastards who destroyed my country. Similarly this has happened
> to America but to a lesser extent as they took in less fucking
> immigrants so their productivity is still relatively high. America's
> only hope is to deport all immigrants or anything that looks like an
> immigrant. An immigrant has inborn traits that makes them lazy,
> lying, leadweight maggots.

Corse there isnt even a single immigrant in your family tree, eh ?

>
> phil scott wrote:
>
>> we are habituated to think in terms of money, currency.. denominated
>> value..and for good reason, its all we have to trade with..so we get
>> value confused with these denominations.... and we are forced to
>> trade and do business in these denominations...
>>
>> so we say things like 'what is the value of a stock' and we mean in
>> terms of the bogus currency.
>>
>> its difficult to even frame real value in this situation... and yes
>> real value will indeed tank as an economy dependent on currency goes
>> into collapse... no business.... the factory is not just worthless it
>> becomes a liability.
>>
>> We have seen a spectacular solution though in Brazil recently... as
>> factorys were closing the employees offered to take them over... they
>> did...and with the rip off management gone, and able to barter for
>> wages and goods etc... brazil recovered... someone posted links to
>> that last week.
>>
>> which takes us to the issue of what IS real value:
>>
>> For an individual it is his skill set, intelligence and discipline in
>> taking care of his base of production..his brain and body..his
>> health...and living in a way that he cant be taxed to total ruins by
>> a desperate and collapsing govt.... that is not to say the
>> approach is a cake walk. it isnt. it requires brains, and
>> working...smart working..not for a starvation wage paid by some slug
>> who refuses to work.
>>
>> those willing to work can make it in a culture with a built up
>> infrastructure such as our own, not in the cities necessarily, but
>> they sure can in the smaller towns.....
>>
>> taking a look at the net real tax base...its well over 80% in the USA
>> on the middle class...did you know that?
>>
>> of course not, we are told its 15% state 20% federal... after lying
>> and fudging the tax is only half that, or less.....
>> sorry....bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzt.... incorrecto.
>>
>> You are paying 5x for food, medical care, gas, and services in the US
>> as compared to less governed countries because we *all pay taxes..and
>> hidden taxes, that drives all prices to these certifiably higher
>> figures...a plumber charging you 80 dollars an hour would be 20
>> dollars without his need to pay his doctor 500 dollars an hour...
>> these costs compound,
>>
>> driving these prices at the base is govt bloat and a corrupt
>> finanical over class.... when that evaporates as it did in Brasil,
>> there is a massive resurgence....but only after govt collapses,
>> dissapears by 80% or more....and ceases its blood sucking....
>>
>> (the nation has lost is premier condition as the worlds only large
>> scale industrial manufacturer..that bailed us out of the great
>> depression (and war to ignite it)....thats vastly diminished now, and
>> the rest of the world is now our industrialized competition.)....
>>
>> No nation in the history of the earth has ever done anything but age
>> (260 years for most give or take just a few years) go corrupt, start
>> wars in an attempt to survive, then get counter attacked... then
>> die. Not a single exception... they reboot a generation or two
>> later in many cases though... whole different set of rules.
>>
>> the reboot lasts about 260 years.... the USA is headed into its
>> crash/ burn and reboot cycle...
>>
>> However, given our killer infrastructure it should not take the
>> historic usual generation or two of starvation to dig out... I
>> predict maybe 5 years of tough times (but fed well because of our
>> factory farms)... then only 10 to 20 years to restablish a somewhat
>> lush economy... not bad.. except for the lowest economic class,
>> those are always screwed regardless.. a natural phenomena...some are
>> simply unable..or abused to oblivion etc.
>>
>> Recent precidents are the rebooted USSR, that went fast even with
>> less infrastructure than we have in the US..and japan..with killer
>> industrial infrastructure but need to import raw materials, fuel and
>> food massively..still their reboot while 10 years under way, has not
>> led to total ruin.
>>
>> Phil scott

== 4 of 6 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 13 2008 7:39 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

phil scott <phil@philscott.net> wrote:
> On Oct 13, 6:34 pm, Tony <T...@TheDeli.Sandwich> wrote:
>> So shall it be written in the history books the downfall of todays'
>> society and economies are fucking immigrants. You don't have to look
>> farther than the country i live in ... CanaDUH. We were once third
>> in the entire world in productivity now we rank near dead last with
>> pakistan and india. Why because Trudeau opened the floodgates to
>> these bastards who destroyed my country. Similarly this has happened
>> to America but to a
>> lesser extent as they took in less fucking immigrants so their
>> productivity is still relatively high. America's only hope is to
>> deport
>> all immigrants or anything that looks like an immigrant. An
>> immigrant has inborn traits that makes them lazy, lying, leadweight
>> maggots.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> phil scott wrote:
>>> we are habituated to think in terms of money, currency.. denominated
>>> value..and for good reason, its all we have to trade with..so we get
>>> value confused with these denominations.... and we are forced to
>>> trade and do business in these denominations...
>>
>>> so we say things like 'what is the value of a stock' and we mean in
>>> terms of the bogus currency.
>>
>>> its difficult to even frame real value in this situation... and yes
>>> real value will indeed tank as an economy dependent on currency goes
>>> into collapse... no business.... the factory is not just worthless
>>> it becomes a liability.
>>
>>> We have seen a spectacular solution though in Brazil recently... as
>>> factorys were closing the employees offered to take them over...
>>> they did...and with the rip off management gone, and able to barter
>>> for wages and goods etc... brazil recovered... someone posted links
>>> to that last week.
>>
>>> which takes us to the issue of what IS real value:
>>
>>> For an individual it is his skill set, intelligence and discipline
>>> in taking care of his base of production..his brain and body..his
>>> health...and living in a way that he cant be taxed to total ruins
>>> by a desperate and collapsing govt.... that is not to say the
>>> approach
>>> is a cake walk. it isnt. it requires brains, and working...smart
>>> working..not for a starvation wage paid by some slug who refuses to
>>> work.
>>
>>> those willing to work can make it in a culture with a built up
>>> infrastructure such as our own, not in the cities necessarily, but
>>> they sure can in the smaller towns.....
>>
>>> taking a look at the net real tax base...its well over 80% in the
>>> USA on the middle class...did you know that?
>>
>>> of course not, we are told its 15% state 20% federal... after lying
>>> and fudging the tax is only half that, or less.....
>>> sorry....bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzt.... incorrecto.
>>
>>> You are paying 5x for food, medical care, gas, and services in the
>>> US as compared to less governed countries because we *all pay
>>> taxes..and hidden taxes, that drives all prices to these
>>> certifiably higher figures...a plumber charging you 80 dollars an
>>> hour would be 20 dollars without his need to pay his doctor 500
>>> dollars an hour... these costs compound,
>>
>>> driving these prices at the base is govt bloat and a corrupt
>>> finanical over class.... when that evaporates as it did in Brasil,
>>> there is a massive resurgence....but only after govt collapses,
>>> dissapears by 80% or more....and ceases its blood sucking....
>>
>>> (the nation has lost is premier condition as the worlds only large
>>> scale industrial manufacturer..that bailed us out of the great
>>> depression (and war to ignite it)....thats vastly diminished now,
>>> and the rest of the world is now our industrialized
>>> competition.)....
>>
>>> No nation in the history of the earth has ever done anything but age
>>> (260 years for most give or take just a few years) go corrupt, start
>>> wars in an attempt to survive, then get counter attacked... then
>>> die. Not a single exception... they reboot a generation or two
>>> later in many cases though... whole different set of rules.
>>
>>> the reboot lasts about 260 years.... the USA is headed into its
>>> crash/ burn and reboot cycle...
>>
>>> However, given our killer infrastructure it should not take the
>>> historic usual generation or two of starvation to dig out... I
>>> predict maybe 5 years of tough times (but fed well because of our
>>> factory farms)... then only 10 to 20 years to restablish a somewhat
>>> lush economy... not bad.. except for the lowest economic class,
>>> those are always screwed regardless.. a natural phenomena...some
>>> are simply unable..or abused to oblivion etc.
>>
>>> Recent precidents are the rebooted USSR, that went fast even with
>>> less infrastructure than we have in the US..and japan..with killer
>>> industrial infrastructure but need to import raw materials, fuel and
>>> food massively..still their reboot while 10 years under way, has not
>>> led to total ruin.
>>
>>> Phil scott
>>
>> --
>> The Grandmaster of the CyberFROG
>>
>> Come get your ticket to CyberFROG city
>>
>> No, I just decided not to play your silly game is all. *Some* of us
>> know proper manners
>>
>> Very few. I used to take calls from *rank* noobs,
>>
>> Hamster isn't a newsreader it's a mistake!
>>
>> El-Gonzo Jackson FROGS both me and Chuckcar
>>
>> Using my technical prowess and computer abilities to answer questions
>> beyond the realm of understandability
>>
>> Regards Tony... Making usenet better for everyone everyday-

> there are several factors.... it is true that an inrush of cheap
> slave labor from undeveloped countries, along with wars etc
> mark the end phase in any national life cycle...

Corse there was never any of that in the 18th and 19th century to america, eh ?

Didnt realise that that was the end phase of america, silly me.

> thats because bloat of govt has over taxed the native people
> into non breeding status, and to fund govt, fuel the economy
> slave labor is needed...a degradation of the culture however.

You one of those red indians that changed your name to that of a white man, tonto ?

> Here is a brief notion on the source of another perhaps over riding factor...

== 5 of 6 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 13 2008 9:13 pm
From: Tony

Yes i can honestly say on both sides of my family all my descendants were
from Canada as far back as records are kept. I'm not really Italian but i
have to use an Italian name to sell more Deli Sandwiches.

Rod Speed wrote:

> Tony <Tony@TheDeli.Sandwich> wrote:
>
> > So shall it be written in the history books the downfall of
> > todays' society and economies are fucking immigrants.
>
> What about the immigrants that dont fuck much ?
>
> > You don't have to look
> > farther than the country i live in ... CanaDUH. We were once third in
> > the entire world in productivity now we rank near dead last with
> > pakistan and india. Why because Trudeau opened the floodgates to
> > these bastards who destroyed my country. Similarly this has happened
> > to America but to a lesser extent as they took in less fucking
> > immigrants so their productivity is still relatively high. America's
> > only hope is to deport all immigrants or anything that looks like an
> > immigrant. An immigrant has inborn traits that makes them lazy,
> > lying, leadweight maggots.
>
> Corse there isnt even a single immigrant in your family tree, eh ?
>
> >
> > phil scott wrote:
> >
> >> we are habituated to think in terms of money, currency.. denominated
> >> value..and for good reason, its all we have to trade with..so we get
> >> value confused with these denominations.... and we are forced to
> >> trade and do business in these denominations...
> >>
> >> so we say things like 'what is the value of a stock' and we mean in
> >> terms of the bogus currency.
> >>
> >> its difficult to even frame real value in this situation... and yes
> >> real value will indeed tank as an economy dependent on currency goes
> >> into collapse... no business.... the factory is not just worthless it
> >> becomes a liability.
> >>
> >> We have seen a spectacular solution though in Brazil recently... as
> >> factorys were closing the employees offered to take them over... they
> >> did...and with the rip off management gone, and able to barter for
> >> wages and goods etc... brazil recovered... someone posted links to
> >> that last week.
> >>
> >> which takes us to the issue of what IS real value:
> >>
> >> For an individual it is his skill set, intelligence and discipline in
> >> taking care of his base of production..his brain and body..his
> >> health...and living in a way that he cant be taxed to total ruins by
> >> a desperate and collapsing govt.... that is not to say the
> >> approach is a cake walk. it isnt. it requires brains, and
> >> working...smart working..not for a starvation wage paid by some slug
> >> who refuses to work.
> >>
> >> those willing to work can make it in a culture with a built up
> >> infrastructure such as our own, not in the cities necessarily, but
> >> they sure can in the smaller towns.....
> >>
> >> taking a look at the net real tax base...its well over 80% in the USA
> >> on the middle class...did you know that?
> >>
> >> of course not, we are told its 15% state 20% federal... after lying
> >> and fudging the tax is only half that, or less.....
> >> sorry....bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzt.... incorrecto.
> >>
> >> You are paying 5x for food, medical care, gas, and services in the US
> >> as compared to less governed countries because we *all pay taxes..and
> >> hidden taxes, that drives all prices to these certifiably higher
> >> figures...a plumber charging you 80 dollars an hour would be 20
> >> dollars without his need to pay his doctor 500 dollars an hour...
> >> these costs compound,
> >>
> >> driving these prices at the base is govt bloat and a corrupt
> >> finanical over class.... when that evaporates as it did in Brasil,
> >> there is a massive resurgence....but only after govt collapses,
> >> dissapears by 80% or more....and ceases its blood sucking....
> >>
> >> (the nation has lost is premier condition as the worlds only large
> >> scale industrial manufacturer..that bailed us out of the great
> >> depression (and war to ignite it)....thats vastly diminished now, and
> >> the rest of the world is now our industrialized competition.)....
> >>
> >> No nation in the history of the earth has ever done anything but age
> >> (260 years for most give or take just a few years) go corrupt, start
> >> wars in an attempt to survive, then get counter attacked... then
> >> die. Not a single exception... they reboot a generation or two
> >> later in many cases though... whole different set of rules.
> >>
> >> the reboot lasts about 260 years.... the USA is headed into its
> >> crash/ burn and reboot cycle...
> >>
> >> However, given our killer infrastructure it should not take the
> >> historic usual generation or two of starvation to dig out... I
> >> predict maybe 5 years of tough times (but fed well because of our
> >> factory farms)... then only 10 to 20 years to restablish a somewhat
> >> lush economy... not bad.. except for the lowest economic class,
> >> those are always screwed regardless.. a natural phenomena...some are
> >> simply unable..or abused to oblivion etc.
> >>
> >> Recent precidents are the rebooted USSR, that went fast even with
> >> less infrastructure than we have in the US..and japan..with killer
> >> industrial infrastructure but need to import raw materials, fuel and
> >> food massively..still their reboot while 10 years under way, has not
> >> led to total ruin.
> >>
> >> Phil scott

--
The Grandmaster of the CyberFROG

Come get your ticket to CyberFROG city

No, I just decided not to play your silly game is all. *Some* of us know
proper manners

Very few. I used to take calls from *rank* noobs,

Hamster isn't a newsreader it's a mistake!

El-Gonzo Jackson FROGS both me and Chuckcar

Using my technical prowess and computer abilities to answer questions beyond
the realm of understandability

Regards Tony... Making usenet better for everyone everyday

== 6 of 6 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 13 2008 11:11 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

Tony <Tony@TheDeli.Sandwich> wrote:

> Yes i can honestly say on both sides of my family all my
> descendants were from Canada as far back as records are kept.

There might just have been canadians around before any records were kept.

Bet they werent in your family tree.

> I'm not really Italian but i have to use an Italian name to sell more Deli Sandwiches.

Something brought to Canada by immigrants. Funny that.

> Rod Speed wrote:
>
>> Tony <Tony@TheDeli.Sandwich> wrote:
>>
>>> So shall it be written in the history books the downfall of
>>> todays' society and economies are fucking immigrants.
>>
>> What about the immigrants that dont fuck much ?
>>
>>> You don't have to look
>>> farther than the country i live in ... CanaDUH. We were once third
>>> in the entire world in productivity now we rank near dead last with
>>> pakistan and india. Why because Trudeau opened the floodgates to
>>> these bastards who destroyed my country. Similarly this has happened
>>> to America but to a lesser extent as they took in less fucking
>>> immigrants so their productivity is still relatively high. America's
>>> only hope is to deport all immigrants or anything that looks like an
>>> immigrant. An immigrant has inborn traits that makes them lazy,
>>> lying, leadweight maggots.
>>
>> Corse there isnt even a single immigrant in your family tree, eh ?
>>
>>>
>>> phil scott wrote:
>>>
>>>> we are habituated to think in terms of money, currency..
>>>> denominated value..and for good reason, its all we have to trade
>>>> with..so we get value confused with these denominations.... and
>>>> we are forced to trade and do business in these denominations...
>>>>
>>>> so we say things like 'what is the value of a stock' and we mean in
>>>> terms of the bogus currency.
>>>>
>>>> its difficult to even frame real value in this situation... and yes
>>>> real value will indeed tank as an economy dependent on currency
>>>> goes into collapse... no business.... the factory is not just
>>>> worthless it becomes a liability.
>>>>
>>>> We have seen a spectacular solution though in Brazil recently... as
>>>> factorys were closing the employees offered to take them over...
>>>> they did...and with the rip off management gone, and able to
>>>> barter for wages and goods etc... brazil recovered... someone
>>>> posted links to that last week.
>>>>
>>>> which takes us to the issue of what IS real value:
>>>>
>>>> For an individual it is his skill set, intelligence and discipline
>>>> in taking care of his base of production..his brain and body..his
>>>> health...and living in a way that he cant be taxed to total ruins
>>>> by a desperate and collapsing govt.... that is not to say the
>>>> approach is a cake walk. it isnt. it requires brains, and
>>>> working...smart working..not for a starvation wage paid by some
>>>> slug who refuses to work.
>>>>
>>>> those willing to work can make it in a culture with a built up
>>>> infrastructure such as our own, not in the cities necessarily, but
>>>> they sure can in the smaller towns.....
>>>>
>>>> taking a look at the net real tax base...its well over 80% in the
>>>> USA on the middle class...did you know that?
>>>>
>>>> of course not, we are told its 15% state 20% federal... after lying
>>>> and fudging the tax is only half that, or less.....
>>>> sorry....bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzt.... incorrecto.
>>>>
>>>> You are paying 5x for food, medical care, gas, and services in the
>>>> US as compared to less governed countries because we *all pay
>>>> taxes..and hidden taxes, that drives all prices to these
>>>> certifiably higher figures...a plumber charging you 80 dollars an
>>>> hour would be 20 dollars without his need to pay his doctor 500
>>>> dollars an hour... these costs compound,
>>>>
>>>> driving these prices at the base is govt bloat and a corrupt
>>>> finanical over class.... when that evaporates as it did in Brasil,
>>>> there is a massive resurgence....but only after govt collapses,
>>>> dissapears by 80% or more....and ceases its blood sucking....
>>>>
>>>> (the nation has lost is premier condition as the worlds only large
>>>> scale industrial manufacturer..that bailed us out of the great
>>>> depression (and war to ignite it)....thats vastly diminished now,
>>>> and the rest of the world is now our industrialized
>>>> competition.)....
>>>>
>>>> No nation in the history of the earth has ever done anything but
>>>> age (260 years for most give or take just a few years) go corrupt,
>>>> start wars in an attempt to survive, then get counter attacked...
>>>> then die. Not a single exception... they reboot a generation
>>>> or two later in many cases though... whole different set of rules.
>>>>
>>>> the reboot lasts about 260 years.... the USA is headed into its
>>>> crash/ burn and reboot cycle...
>>>>
>>>> However, given our killer infrastructure it should not take the
>>>> historic usual generation or two of starvation to dig out... I
>>>> predict maybe 5 years of tough times (but fed well because of our
>>>> factory farms)... then only 10 to 20 years to restablish a somewhat
>>>> lush economy... not bad.. except for the lowest economic class,
>>>> those are always screwed regardless.. a natural phenomena...some
>>>> are simply unable..or abused to oblivion etc.
>>>>
>>>> Recent precidents are the rebooted USSR, that went fast even with
>>>> less infrastructure than we have in the US..and japan..with killer
>>>> industrial infrastructure but need to import raw materials, fuel
>>>> and food massively..still their reboot while 10 years under way,
>>>> has not led to total ruin.
>>>>
>>>> Phil scott

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Hussein ObamaÆs First 10 Executive Orders
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/eef1f93b8617a8e7?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 13 2008 6:56 pm
From: "Dano"

Fiftycal@abcnnbcbs.com wrote:
> On Mon, 13 Oct 2008 15:06:16 -0400, Jeff <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote:
>
>>> Right, two years of a Democratic congress offset 12 years of
>>> Republicans and six years where Republicans controlled everything.
>>
>> When it was asked of McCain who would be his Treasury Secretary he
>> mentioned Warren Buffet. Buffet is, of course, a top Obama supporter.
>>
>>
>> Economists Support Obama Over McCain By More Than 2 to 1
>
> Hundreds of Economists Sign Letter Opposing Obama's Tax Plan
> Hundreds of economists (including Nobel Prize winners Gary Becker,
> James Buchanan, Robert Mundell, Edward Prescott, and Vernon Smith)
> have signed letters opposing Barack Obama's economic and tax plans
> (here, here, and here):
>
> We are equally concerned with his proposals to increase tax rates on
> labor income and investment. His dividend and capital gains tax
> increases would reduce investment and cut into the savings of millions
> of Americans. His proposals to increase income and payroll tax rates
> would discourage the formation and expansion of small businesses and
> reduce employment and take-home pay, as would his mandates on firms to
> provide expensive health insurance.
>
> After hearing such economic criticism of his proposals, Barack Obama
> has apparently suggested to some people that he might postpone his tax
> increases, perhaps to 2010. But it is a mistake to think that
> postponing such tax increases would prevent their harmful effect on
> the economy today. The prospect of such tax rate increases in 2010 is
> already a drag on the economy. Businesses considering whether to hire
> workers today and expand their operations have time horizons longer
> than a year or two, so the prospect of higher taxes starting in 2009
> or 2010 reduces hiring and investment in 2008.
>
> http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2008/10/hundres-of-econ.html

Did all these great intellects sign this before or after McCain supported
the bailout bill after the market meltdown? These are the same folks that
helped get us where we are. I'm surprised he could only get 533 signatories
to his plan. It's really not that many. We're supposed to be impressed? I
wonder how many are even legit.

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 13 2008 7:02 pm
From: clouddreamer

Dano wrote:
> Fiftycal@abcnnbcbs.com wrote:
>> On Mon, 13 Oct 2008 15:06:16 -0400, Jeff <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> Right, two years of a Democratic congress offset 12 years of
>>>> Republicans and six years where Republicans controlled everything.
>>>
>>> When it was asked of McCain who would be his Treasury Secretary he
>>> mentioned Warren Buffet. Buffet is, of course, a top Obama supporter.
>>>
>>>
>>> Economists Support Obama Over McCain By More Than 2 to 1
>>
>> Hundreds of Economists Sign Letter Opposing Obama's Tax Plan
>> Hundreds of economists (including Nobel Prize winners Gary Becker,
>> James Buchanan, Robert Mundell, Edward Prescott, and Vernon Smith)
>> have signed letters opposing Barack Obama's economic and tax plans
>> (here, here, and here):
>>
>> We are equally concerned with his proposals to increase tax rates on
>> labor income and investment. His dividend and capital gains tax
>> increases would reduce investment and cut into the savings of millions
>> of Americans. His proposals to increase income and payroll tax rates
>> would discourage the formation and expansion of small businesses and
>> reduce employment and take-home pay, as would his mandates on firms to
>> provide expensive health insurance.
>>
>> After hearing such economic criticism of his proposals, Barack Obama
>> has apparently suggested to some people that he might postpone his tax
>> increases, perhaps to 2010. But it is a mistake to think that
>> postponing such tax increases would prevent their harmful effect on
>> the economy today. The prospect of such tax rate increases in 2010 is
>> already a drag on the economy. Businesses considering whether to hire
>> workers today and expand their operations have time horizons longer
>> than a year or two, so the prospect of higher taxes starting in 2009
>> or 2010 reduces hiring and investment in 2008.
>>
>> http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2008/10/hundres-of-econ.html
>
> Did all these great intellects sign this before or after McCain
> supported the bailout bill after the market meltdown? These are the
> same folks that helped get us where we are. I'm surprised he could only
> get 533 signatories to his plan. It's really not that many. We're
> supposed to be impressed? I wonder how many are even legit.

Probably the same few hundred "scientists" the Repugs had sign a
declaration that they didn't agree with the findings on climate change
by the IPCC. Turns out most of them were boogus, were not in the field
of climate science, didn't know they had "signed," or were energy sector
paid "scientists" like Fred Singer.

We must change the way we live,
or the climate will do it for us.

www.ipcc.ch/

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 13 2008 8:09 pm
From: Jeff

Or even before or after yet another of McCains populist moves to spend
$300 Billion on absorbing mortgages. The text mentions nothing about
supporting McCain, in fact it doesn't even mention McCain.

Of course it would be tough for any economist to back John "I don't
know as much about the economy as I should" McCain who admittedly has
been relying on his chief economic adviser Phil "mental recession" Gramm.

http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2008/07/foreclosure-phil.html

But Gramm's most cunning coup on behalf of his friends in the financial
services industry—friends who gave him millions over his 24-year
congressional career—came on December 15, 2000. It was an especially
tense time in Washington. Only two days earlier, the Supreme Court had
issued its decision on Bush v. Gore. President Bill Clinton and the
Republican-controlled Congress were locked in a budget showdown. It was
the perfect moment for a wily senator to game the system. As Congress
and the White House were hurriedly hammering out a $384-billion omnibus
spending bill, Gramm slipped in a 262-page measure called the Commodity
Futures Modernization Act. Written with the help of financial industry
lobbyists and cosponsored by Senator Richard Lugar (R-Ind.), the
chairman of the agriculture committee, the measure had been considered
dead—even by Gramm. Few lawmakers had either the opportunity or
inclination to read the version of the bill Gramm inserted. "Nobody in
either chamber had any knowledge of what was going on or what was in
it," says a congressional aide familiar with the bill's history.

It's not exactly like Gramm hid his handiwork—far from it. The balding
and bespectacled Texan strode onto the Senate floor to hail the act's
inclusion into the must-pass budget package. But only an expert, or a
lobbyist, could have followed what Gramm was saying. The act, he
declared, would ensure that neither the sec nor the Commodity Futures
Trading Commission (cftc) got into the business of regulating newfangled
financial products called swaps—and would thus "protect financial
institutions from overregulation" and "position our financial services
industries to be world leaders into the new century."

It didn't quite work out that way. For starters, the legislation
contained a provision—lobbied for by Enron, a generous contributor to
Gramm—that exempted energy trading from regulatory oversight, allowing
Enron to run rampant, wreck the California electricity market, and cost
consumers billions before it collapsed. (For Gramm, Enron was a family
affair. Eight years earlier, his wife, Wendy Gramm, as cftc chairwoman,
had pushed through a rule excluding Enron's energy futures contracts
from government oversight. Wendy later joined the Houston-based
company's board, and in the following years her Enron salary and stock
income brought between $915,000 and $1.8 million into the Gramm household.)

But the Enron loophole was small potatoes compared to the devastation
that unregulated swaps would unleash. Credit default swaps are
essentially insurance policies covering the losses on securities in the
event of a default. Financial institutions buy them to protect
themselves if an investment they hold goes south. It's like bookies
trading bets, with banks and hedge funds gambling on whether an
investment (say, a pile of subprime mortgages bundled into a security)
will succeed or fail. Because of the swap-related provisions of Gramm's
bill—which were supported by Fed chairman Alan Greenspan and Treasury
secretary Larry Summers—a $62 trillion market (nearly four times the
size of the entire US stock market) remained utterly unregulated,
meaning no one made sure the banks and hedge funds had the assets to
cover the losses they guaranteed.

In essence, Wall Street's biggest players (which, thanks to Gramm's
earlier banking deregulation efforts, now incorporated everything from
your checking account to your pension fund) ran a secret casino. "Tens
of trillions of dollars of transactions were done in the dark," says
University of San Diego law professor Frank Partnoy, an expert on
financial markets and derivatives. "No one had a picture of where the
risks were flowing." Betting on the risk of any given transaction became
more important—and more lucrative—than the transactions themselves,
Partnoy notes: "So there was more betting on the riskiest subprime
mortgages than there were actual mortgages." Banks and hedge funds,
notes Michael Greenberger, who directed the cftc's division of trading
and markets in the late 1990s, "were betting the subprimes would pay off
and they would not need the capital to support their bets."

These unregulated swaps have been at "the heart of the subprime
meltdown," says Greenberger. "I happen to think Gramm did not know what
he was doing. I don't think a member in Congress had read the 262-page
bill or had thought of the cataclysm it would cause." In 1998,
Greenberger's division at the cftc proposed applying regulations to the
burgeoning derivatives market. But, he says, "all hell broke loose. The
lobbyists for major commercial banks and investment banks and hedge
funds went wild. They all wanted to be trading without the government
looking over their shoulder."

This won't be the last misdirection campaign of the season.

Jeff

These are the
> same folks that helped get us where we are. I'm surprised he could only
> get 533 signatories to his plan. It's really not that many. We're
> supposed to be impressed? I wonder how many are even legit.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: ot: for those of the praying persuasion
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/f341f7d990727614?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 13 2008 7:35 pm
From: "AllEmailDeletedImmediately"

time to hit the decks

http://www.etpv.org/2008/ac2arms.html

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Frugal air fares still exist
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/baf1b52a87b7d766?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 13 2008 8:18 pm
From: George Grapman

I wanted to head east for Thanksgiving but the fares were all in
the %800 to 1,000 range. Kept playing around with the sites and found
that travelocity had a fare for $450 ($20 more than if I chose to return
on the Tuesday after Thanksgiving rather than on Monday.
Non-stop both ways,aisle seats and the red eye going east which is
always my preference.

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TOPIC: getting cats spayed and neutered
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/291bfc820205c6fb?hl=en
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== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 13 2008 8:54 pm
From: John Savage

OhioGuy <none@none.net> writes:
>with us having to come up with $4k over the next 4 months for my wife's
>pregnancy. It seems like our family should come first.

It is a frequent refrain that pregnant women and cats should not mix.
There's some bug carried by many cats that can easily transfer to humans
and pose a major danger to the fetus. Rather than rely on my vague
recollection (that it can result in abortion) I refer you to google.

I'm offline ATM or I'd search further myself.
--
John Savage (my news address is not valid for email)

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 13 2008 9:37 pm
From: "h"

"John Savage" <rookswood@suburbian.com.au> wrote in message
news:0810140140200.14Oct08$rookswood@suburbian.com...
> OhioGuy <none@none.net> writes:
>>with us having to come up with $4k over the next 4 months for my wife's
>>pregnancy. It seems like our family should come first.
>
> It is a frequent refrain that pregnant women and cats should not mix.
> There's some bug carried by many cats that can easily transfer to humans
> and pose a major danger to the fetus. Rather than rely on my vague
> recollection (that it can result in abortion) I refer you to google.
>
> I'm offline ATM or I'd search further myself.
> --
> John Savage (my news address is not valid for email)

First, the cat has to have toxoplasmosis. Second, the pregnant woman has to
come into direct contact with the feces of the infected cat. Third, "fresh"
feces do not pose the same danger as day-old or older feces. Bottom line:
change the litter box once a day and you're fine.

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TOPIC: KFC 9.99 bucket
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/5651e6f0a42596cd?hl=en
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== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 13 2008 9:12 pm
From: "HiTech RedNeck"

"kilikini" <kilikini1@NOSPAMhotmail.com> wrote in message
news:gcm3nu$v27$1@news.datemas.de...

> I'd say homemade fried chicken is cheaper (and better!) than KFC.

The default KFC chicken (crispy recipe) is actually less good than the
original, which you have to specifically ask for.

Even generic frozen fried chicken that is meant to be baked is pretty
decent, especially if each still-frozen piece is spritzed with some Pam or
the equivalent prior to baking.

The KFC folks claim there would be some "surprises" in the recipe. I'd take
it that it probably includes small amounts of sweet spices such as cinnamon
and ginger. With the capabilities of modern chemistry I'm surprised it
hasn't long been reverse engineered, but there may be so little of most of
the "herbs and spices" that they don't make a difference to the flavor.
"Imitation of famous name dishes KFC" recipes often have no more spices than
ordinary black pepper, and frankly that's the only spice I can identify by
taste in KFC.

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 13 2008 9:24 pm
From: Blinky the Shark

HiTech RedNeck wrote:

>
> "kilikini" <kilikini1@NOSPAMhotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:gcm3nu$v27$1@news.datemas.de...
>
>> I'd say homemade fried chicken is cheaper (and better!) than KFC.
>
> The default KFC chicken (crispy recipe) is actually less good than the
> original, which you have to specifically ask for.
>
> Even generic frozen fried chicken that is meant to be baked is pretty
> decent, especially if each still-frozen piece is spritzed with some Pam or
> the equivalent prior to baking.
>
> The KFC folks claim there would be some "surprises" in the recipe. I'd take
> it that it probably includes small amounts of sweet spices such as cinnamon
> and ginger. With the capabilities of modern chemistry I'm surprised it
> hasn't long been reverse engineered, but there may be so little of most of
> the "herbs and spices" that they don't make a difference to the flavor.
> "Imitation of famous name dishes KFC" recipes often have no more spices than
> ordinary black pepper, and frankly that's the only spice I can identify by
> taste in KFC.

I think they're talking about the insect parts and rodent hairs.

--
Blinky
Killing all posts from Google Groups
The Usenet Improvement Project: http://improve-usenet.org
Need a new news feed? http://blinkynet.net/comp/newfeed.html

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 13 2008 11:11 pm
From: SoCalMike

James wrote:
> How much would the raw chicken cost you at regular supermarket
> prices? At sale prices? Assume you cook regularly and have all the
> other stuff necessary for fried chicken so their cost is minor.

whats a bucket consist of? one whole bird? .69 - .99/lb, figure about
3lb a bird.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Benefits of frugality?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/9afc6b52c0d2d5fb?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 13 2008 11:18 pm
From: SoCalMike

timeOday wrote:

> * Living beneath your means gives you a cushion to absorb temporary
> shocks in gas and food prices.
>
> more?

i can easily take more time off work, unpaid and do stuff id rather do.
let other people that need the money have the hours. no biggie. theyre
there for me if i need them.

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Frugal Living

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Tuesday, October 14, 2008

23 new messages in 9 topics - digest

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