Frugal Living: misc.consumers.frugal-living - 25 new messages in 8 topics

Sunday, November 23, 2008

misc.consumers.frugal-living - 25 new messages in 8 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Doorbell always uses electricity!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/3198294a289e9e57?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 11 ==
Date: Sun, Nov 23 2008 7:13 am
From: Art

Bill wrote:
> This thread has seemed to hit a nerve!
>
> Why are so many people getting upset that I am working to eliminate "vampire
> loads" in my house and reduce my electric bill?

Just because someone replies does not mean they are getting "upset".
They are just taking part in a discussion. This is what USENET is.

--
Art

== 2 of 11 ==
Date: Sun, Nov 23 2008 7:28 am
From: terry

On Nov 23, 11:40 am, PeterD <pet...@hipson.net> wrote:
> On Sat, 22 Nov 2008 16:40:02 -0800, "Bill"
>
> <billnomailnosp...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >This thread has seemed to hit a nerve!
>
> >Why are so many people getting upset that I am working to eliminate "vampire
> >loads" in my house and reduce my electric bill?
>
> >Anyway here are the facts about "vampire power" for those who are interested
> >in this (can be 5% of your electric bill and 75% of the power for electronic
> >things is used while the devices are turned off!)....
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standby_power
>
> Please do not confuse Wikipedia for facts. As to that 75% number, it is
> highly suspect.
>
> Again, a simple cost/benefit analysis would show the best path to
> follow. However, simple math is beyond many people who blindly follow
> whatever the current fad is (be it global warming, electric cars, or
> whatever) in an attempt to appear 'on top of things', and 'all wise'.
>
> In the end, sure you can save a few penny's of electricity, and spend
> dollars doing so. And perhaps you feel good doing it that way. Fine,
> it's your house, as long as no one else gets hurt, go for it. But, if
> you are really interested in saving money (or energy) then I'd
> recommend thinking about what you are doing, looking at real numbers,
> analyzing the various factors (including items such as startup
> current) and seeing what is the real best solution.

Exactly. What interested people here I think was the the fallacy and
futility of worrying about a minuscule amount of wasted energy;
equivalent perhaps to the home heat lost during time taken to have the
front door open on a cold day to bring in a few bags of groceries!

It's heartening though that in this day and age of wasteful and
prodigal monster homes, jacuzzi and swimming pool styles of living,
V8 Hummers etc. (A situation possibly being currently amended by
'tightening our belts'?) is that there is awareness and interest in
WHAT IS WORTH DOING to conserve.

What seems to escape many is that by spending many dollars to use
manufactured items one only saves a few cents worth of energy. All
manufactured items require resources and energy to manufacture. For
example how much elctrcity is required say, to refine iron ore, make
galvanized sheet steel and stamp out an electrical outlet box, along
with the energy required to run the factory in which it is made,
package it, transport it to a local retail outlet, stock the shelves,
buy or have screws to mount, bring it home, etc. etc. ??????

A neighbour (driven by a wife with virtually zero technical
appreciation) has gone all CFLs. Even for those locations where lights
are only used occasionally. Each CFL costs around $3 compared to the
25 cent el-cheapos I use and requires several manufacturing operations
involving electronic components and a very small amount of mercury.
But their electricity consumption has changed little.

Why? Because they like most here they use electrcity for heating. So
any waste heat from 'inefficient' old fashioned incandescent light
bulbs does not contribute to warming the home; likewise an
'inefficient' fridge etc. lost heat from an electric hot water tank
etc.

One item that does waste heat energy is a clothes dryer; it just
chucks warm damp air outside for some 20 to 30 minutes each time it is
run. Hey must cost that out! We run ours as little as possible and
whenver weather allows dry heavy items, blankets, towels etc. on our
two cothes lines. See item on clothe line supports.

Cheers.

== 3 of 11 ==
Date: Sun, Nov 23 2008 8:12 am
From: "hallerb@aol.com"

My best friend has degrees in electronics, electrial power and once
was a design engineer for at the time a major power transformer
manufacturer.

I asdked him about standby losses, he rreports it depends on ntheb
transformer. they can be built to be ultra low, which cost more, or
lossy and cheap to build.

government should require energy efficency numbers on everything with
minimum standards

== 4 of 11 ==
Date: Sun, Nov 23 2008 8:24 am
From: Jim Redelfs

In article <g5kii41t2bunt2744adv6m076h4e7vfti6@4ax.com>,
KLS <xymergy@suds.com> wrote:

> And he'd laugh at your earlier comment about how sad you
> think it is that deaf people probably voted?

If that is how my comment was taken, I apologize. It was NOT directed
at deaf people.

>> You are mistaking cynicism for ignorance.

> No, I'm seeing contempt, not cynicism.

In that case, again I apologize. I hold no contempt for those doing
what they like.
--
:)
JR

== 5 of 11 ==
Date: Sun, Nov 23 2008 8:27 am
From: Jim Redelfs

In article <niqii4l1g9aapqul39t7ot2oalisq1blue@4ax.com>,
PeterD <peter2@hipson.net> wrote:

> In the end, sure you can save a few penny's of electricity,
> and spend dollars doing so.

There is an old phrase for that. It predates the concept of "green" and
energy conservation by some centuries:

Penny wise and pound foolish.

'Nuff said.
--
:)
JR

== 6 of 11 ==
Date: Sun, Nov 23 2008 8:35 am
From: Jim Redelfs

In article
<2fcb43d1-bc1d-4225-a037-a4686d8e9eb4@t3g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>,
"hallerb@aol.com" <hallerb@aol.com> wrote:

> government should require energy efficency numbers on
> everything with minimum standards

I respectfully disagree.

It's more than enough that the government has mandated energy efficiency
labels on MAJOR energy consuming items such as HVAC components, water
heaters, laundry equipment, refrigerators and freezers.

Mandating testing and labeling for energy efficiency on "everything"
from toasters (virtually 100% efficient, BTW) to doorbell transformers
would be too intrusive, costly and accomplish little if anything.

Government rarely "gets it right" with the big and important things. I
shudder to think of it getting into such trivial things.
--
:)
JR

== 7 of 11 ==
Date: Sun, Nov 23 2008 8:40 am
From: KLS

On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 10:24:08 -0600, Jim Redelfs
<jim.redelfs@NOSPAMredelfs.com> wrote:

>In article <g5kii41t2bunt2744adv6m076h4e7vfti6@4ax.com>,
> KLS <xymergy@suds.com> wrote:
>
>> And he'd laugh at your earlier comment about how sad you
>> think it is that deaf people probably voted?
>
>If that is how my comment was taken, I apologize. It was NOT directed
>at deaf people.
>
>>> You are mistaking cynicism for ignorance.
>
>> No, I'm seeing contempt, not cynicism.
>
>In that case, again I apologize. I hold no contempt for those doing
>what they like.

Apology accepted; thanks.

== 8 of 11 ==
Date: Sun, Nov 23 2008 10:39 am
From: "HeyBub"

terry wrote:
>
> One item that does waste heat energy is a clothes dryer; it just
> chucks warm damp air outside for some 20 to 30 minutes each time it is
> run. Hey must cost that out! We run ours as little as possible and
> whenver weather allows dry heavy items, blankets, towels etc. on our
> two cothes lines. See item on clothe line supports.
>

Only about half the time. During the winter, I dump the output of our
clothes dryer into the house. It adds humidity, heat, and overall comfort.

The CO monitor barely moves.

== 9 of 11 ==
Date: Sun, Nov 23 2008 10:40 am
From: "HeyBub"

Bill wrote:
> This thread has seemed to hit a nerve!
>
> Why are so many people getting upset that I am working to eliminate
> "vampire loads" in my house and reduce my electric bill?
>

The worry that you might reproduce?

== 10 of 11 ==
Date: Sun, Nov 23 2008 10:56 am
From: "Rod Speed"

hallerb@aol.com wrote:

> My best friend has degrees in electronics, electrial power and once was a
> design engineer for at the time a major power transformer manufacturer.

But didnt manage to explain to you the most important difference, if he is even aware of it.

> I asdked him about standby losses, he rreports it depends on ntheb
> transformer. they can be built to be ultra low, which cost more, or
> lossy and cheap to build.

Switch mode wall warts, with no transformer at all, both cost peanuts to build and have almost no standby losses.

> government should require energy efficency numbers on everything with minimum standards

No thanks. I'll decide for myself what makes sense instead.

== 11 of 11 ==
Date: Sun, Nov 23 2008 3:18 pm
From: "Bill"

I've gone through my home and examined *every* electrical gadget, appliance,
etc.

98% of the products I have use electricity when not being used! 98%!!!!

Things which have no reason to use power when off! Things which used to have
a regular on/off switch.

Seems to me someone wants me to be using more electricity!

So I post on the internet that I am shutting this stuff off and I get a good
number of responses NOT wanting me to do this!

Seems to me someone wants me to be using more electricity!

Now a consumer suggests manufacturers should be required to make products
which use less electricity when off. Then that person gets hit with flak!

Seems to me someone wants everyone to be using more electricity!

==============================================================================
TOPIC: do you plant to lower your indoor temp this winter?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/a259dedc39c3ba0d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Sun, Nov 23 2008 7:18 am
From: "Daniel T."

chilisincarne@gmail.com wrote:

> I usually have about 73F indoors, but now with the expensive heating
> costs ive been thinking of maybe going a bit lower.
> So last week i tried sinking it all the way down to 60F and see how it
> felt, and it was unbelievably damn COLD! I had to wear socks and t-
> shirt while sleeping LOL!
> Maybe something around 66F would be better?
>
> Have you experimented with lower indoor temp? What is a alrite lowest
> temp?

Last winter we kept the heat at 76F, so far this year we have kept it at
73, sometimes 74. Before you think this is extravagant... I live in
Florida, during the summer we keep the AC set 80.

== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Sun, Nov 23 2008 9:50 am
From: "h"

"Daniel T." <daniel_t@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:daniel_t-B54E01.10182023112008@earthlink.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
> chilisincarne@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> I usually have about 73F indoors, but now with the expensive heating
>> costs ive been thinking of maybe going a bit lower.
>> So last week i tried sinking it all the way down to 60F and see how it
>> felt, and it was unbelievably damn COLD! I had to wear socks and t-
>> shirt while sleeping LOL!
>> Maybe something around 66F would be better?

60 works just fine here in upstate NY. I've always had it set to 60, even
when heating oil was $.89.

== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Sun, Nov 23 2008 10:51 am
From: "Rod Speed"

chilisincarne@gmail.com wrote:

> I usually have about 73F indoors, but now with the expensive
> heating costs ive been thinking of maybe going a bit lower.

> So last week i tried sinking it all the way down to 60F and
> see how it felt, and it was unbelievably damn COLD! I had
> to wear socks and t-shirt while sleeping LOL!

You could get real radical and use a quilt.

> Maybe something around 66F would be better?

> Have you experimented with lower indoor temp? What is a alrite lowest temp?

There is no nice tidy number. It depends on what you are wearing
and how much exercise you are getting, or just sitting around etc.

== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Sun, Nov 23 2008 11:45 am
From: Vic Smith

On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 04:44:44 -0800 (PST), chilisincarne@gmail.com
wrote:

>I usually have about 73F indoors, but now with the expensive heating
>costs ive been thinking of maybe going a bit lower.
>So last week i tried sinking it all the way down to 60F and see how it
>felt, and it was unbelievably damn COLD! I had to wear socks and t-
>shirt while sleeping LOL!
>Maybe something around 66F would be better?
>
>Have you experimented with lower indoor temp? What is a alrite lowest
>temp?

I tried experimenting, but every time one of my controls went haywire.
That control would be my wife.
So you have to balance frugality with domestic tranquility.
Not heating unused rooms is a start.
I spend a lot of time in the basement, where I have all HVAC vents
closed. If I feel cold I turn on a small electric heater under my
desk.
Heated mattress pads for lower night time temps.
Programmable thermostats are a big plus.
But we basically settled at 68-69F winter, 80F summer.
The 80F never changes. We have ceiling fans.
Sometimes the winter gets boosted to 72F for a while if somebody
is miserable. Hey, you live once. So keep some perspective.
Do what works for your family, while maintaining domestic tranquility.
If the heating bills are getting expensive, you can save some coin
by paying the kids a couple bucks to not eat breakfast, then charge
them a buck for dinner. It adds up.
Teaches fiscal responsibility too.

--Vic

== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Sun, Nov 23 2008 12:01 pm
From: "Bob F"

<chilisincarne@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:670e34e3-e073-4146-a31b-1152d9065a1a@w35g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
>I usually have about 73F indoors, but now with the expensive heating
> costs ive been thinking of maybe going a bit lower.
> So last week i tried sinking it all the way down to 60F and see how it
> felt, and it was unbelievably damn COLD! I had to wear socks and t-
> shirt while sleeping LOL!
> Maybe something around 66F would be better?
>
> Have you experimented with lower indoor temp? What is a alrite lowest
> temp?

It's 55F in my house right now. I'll probably build a fire later, but this is OK
with a thick sweater on.

Try a few comforters on your bed. I sleep fine down to 45F or so with the 3 thin
comforters I use in winter. I do have a small heater on a stand next to the bed.
I turn it on for a couple minutes and hold the blankets up to collect the heat
right after I climb into bed on cold evening to quickly warn the bed.

You can get used to whatever temp you are insulated for. Visiters may be less
adaptable.

73F in the winter is too hot for my taste.

==============================================================================
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http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/f5a4fe6040021312?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
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http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/accf6866b9cf1155?hl=en
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TOPIC: Do you want your tax money to pay a forklift operator $103,000.00 a
year
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/ddfc45ecb2d7616d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Nov 23 2008 10:07 am
From: Daniel

On Nov 22, 7:58 pm, BE-VA <blackwater-evangal...@testland.net> wrote:
> On Sat, 22 Nov 2008 06:52:42 -0800 (PST), Daniel
>
>
>
>
>
> <sabot12...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >On Nov 21, 5:51 pm, BE-VA <blackwater-evangal...@testland.net> wrote:
> >> On Thu, 20 Nov 2008 08:57:39 -0800 (PST), Daniel
>
> >> <sabot12...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> >On Nov 19, 9:34 pm, BE-VA <blackwater-evangal...@testland.net> wrote:
> >> >> On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 09:23:55 -0800 (PST), Daniel
>
> >> >> <sabot12...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> >On Nov 18, 5:22 pm, TruthTel...@nospam.net wrote:
> >> >> >> In <96c903fc-9181-4782-a256-6a80cc40e...@a17g2000prm.googlegroups.com>, on
> >> >> >> 11/18/2008
> >> >> >> at 01:32 PM, Daniel <sabot12...@hotmail.com> said:
>
> >> >> >> >On Nov 18, 1:29 pm, TruthTel...@nospam.net wrote:
> >> >> >> >> You people need to do some homework. The so-called $73 ph, is not cash.
> >> >> >> >> it includes benefits and retirement costs.
> >> >> >> >Which is STILL too much money for an unskilled laborer that does nothing
> >> >> >> >more than hold a tool.
>
> >> >> >> Do your homework. Its not unskilled labor anymore.
>
> >> >> >Your job consists of holding a tool that does all the work for you.
> >> >> >That by itself is the definition of unskilled. If you don't like it,
> >> >> >tough.
>
> >> >> While I agree with you with regards to pay for work done I don't agree
> >> >> with your premise -- by your premise a military pilot flying a 25
> >> >> million dollar aircraft is unskilled labor since all he does is sit in
> >> >> the cockpit and pull levers and push buttons.
>
> >> >Except that pilot has a 4 year college education, and at least a year
> >> >of flight school to learn to fly said aircraft, and does it for far
> >> >less than the toothess goober that holds the machine to tighten lug
> >> >nuts.
>
> >> Never the less he is what you said is an unskilled worker because, in
> >> most modern day aircraft, the pilot is only there to make sure that
> >> the take-off and landing are performed properly. Everything else is
> >> done by the machine.
>
> >Never flown a fighter jet I see.
>
> And you're never seen the cockpit of one (excepting in your computer
> games.) I have more time as crew in military aircraft than you have in
> your local bar, cillivillian.

Of course you do, and I'm no civilian.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Nov 23 2008 10:08 am
From: Daniel

On Nov 22, 12:44 pm, TruthTel...@nospam.net wrote:
> Once again for the right wing asshole:
>
> " Move along asshole. You have proven yourself incapable of learning or
> thinking clearly. Its a trait common to right wingers."

Translation: I have been beaten down by my betters, so now I will
continue to
foam at the mouth.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: 50 Years Later... ...black children are still choosing the white doll.
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/53568b9fdc824ebb?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Nov 23 2008 11:02 am
From: "Jude Alexander"

"ed wolf" <eduartwolf@gmx.net> wrote in message
news:578f5385-5ec7-4089-904a-6bd2a729f85e@n10g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
> On 20 Nov., 21:07, George wrote:
>
>> And we should give a shit about this why?
>
>
> Why indeed,
> but I think it is very interesting to see what different
> perspectives and attitudes do to the same test results.
> If say Mattell Inc wants to know which model Barbie
> will be next they might find parents want the brown one,
> and kids the pink. If you are interested what is considered
> "cute" in which group of people, it might be a hint.
> Maybe lighter skin is a signal like physical proportions of
> babies, or pups, and triggers that smile- and cuddle- response.
> Nothing more behind it, probably, but in a society dominated
> by whites impossible to find out what exactly causes it.
> If any racist wants to use these old result again, so what.
> You cant stop them by reasoning, anyway.
> ed

I did a little research on this and it's usual for a minority (in number of
power) to identify with the majority (whether it be in numbers or power base
or both). Also, the man who gave the test back in the 60s (Clark, I think
his name is) says that there were black children who did not choose the
white doll and it was because the parents conscientiously sought to give
their children good pride in themselves. Apparently, if the parents don't
realize that this is a common phenomenon between minorities and majorities,
then the children can "fall prey" to identifying the "other" as better. If
the parents are aware then they can easily stop their children from doing
so.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Skype higher than onesuite.com
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/7af523d960b00177?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Nov 23 2008 12:41 pm
From: SMS

DoctorTime wrote:
> I was fairly impressed with Skype - until I compared their prices with
> onesuite.com.
> I already have been using onesuite.com and been happy with the service
> but people kept telling me how cheap and great skype.com was and I
> tried it at someone else's home and it seemed fine, quality wise.
>
> So I went out and bought a headset/microphone for my computer and then
> as I was signing up for skype I began to look at the rates.
>
> What I found out is that in almost every case, onesuite.com is cheaper
> than skype!

Yeah, I've turned a lot of people on to OneSuite. One of the biggest
advantages of OneSuite is that they have access numbers in a lot of
countries, and of course it's a lot simpler than Skype to use.

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Nov 23 2008 1:52 pm
From: Vic Smith

On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 12:41:01 -0800, SMS <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
wrote:

>DoctorTime wrote:
>> I was fairly impressed with Skype - until I compared their prices with
>> onesuite.com.
>> I already have been using onesuite.com and been happy with the service
>> but people kept telling me how cheap and great skype.com was and I
>> tried it at someone else's home and it seemed fine, quality wise.
>>
>> So I went out and bought a headset/microphone for my computer and then
>> as I was signing up for skype I began to look at the rates.
>>
>> What I found out is that in almost every case, onesuite.com is cheaper
>> than skype!
>
>Yeah, I've turned a lot of people on to OneSuite. One of the biggest
>advantages of OneSuite is that they have access numbers in a lot of
>countries, and of course it's a lot simpler than Skype to use.

You need to look at the big picture.

--Vic

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Nov 23 2008 2:09 pm
From: "John Weiss"

> On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 12:41:01 -0800, SMS wrote:
>
>Yeah, I've turned a lot of people on to OneSuite. One of the biggest
>advantages of OneSuite is that they have access numbers in a lot of
>countries, and of course it's a lot simpler than Skype to use.

So, why do you need an access number for OneSuite? With Skype, any place you
have an Internet connection (with VERY few exceptions like UAE and Ethiopia),
you have Skype connectivity.

As for ease of use, either dial the number or select your contact. What's hard
about it?

I use Skype around the world, and spend less than $5/year on calling to actual
phones!

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misc.consumers.frugal-living - 25 new messages in 8 topics - digest

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