Frugal Living: 24 new messages in 10 topics

Friday, January 18, 2008

24 new messages in 10 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Resurgence of telemarketers and telephishers
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/132159bd102f1747?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 13 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 18 2008 7:39 am
From: Melinda Meahan - take out TRASH to reply

sfgeorge@paccbell.net wrote:
>
> I have had numerous callers ask for my credit card or checking info.
> When i ask for their company name they often hang up the phone.
> Obviously they were told to do that similar the office I mentioned where
> we were told never to answer the phone. I can not believe that some who
> is told those things can thing it is a legitimate business.

I will concede that if they are asking for your money, they should tell
you who you are paying. But lots of people carrying the label
"telemarketer" are only people opening a door, appointment setting,
trying to collect names of people who are interested, etc., and those
people might be working for a telemarketing service and not actually
know who the end-user business is.

--
Every job is a self-portrait of the person who does it. Autograph your
work with excellence.

== 2 of 13 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 18 2008 7:39 am
From: Melinda Meahan - take out TRASH to reply

sfgeorge@paccbell.net wrote:
> Melinda Meahan - take out TRASH to reply wrote:
>> The person calling you on the phone is not legally responsible.
>
> That is like saying that if someone asks you to bring a package over
> the border you are not responsible for determining the contents. As
> another poster noted once a few people have mentioned to Do Not Call law
> you have been made ware that the law is being broken.

No, it's not. If you prosecute, the person who is talking on the phone
is merely a pawn and will not be prosecuted for what they did; only the
company who authorized it to be done.

--
Every job is a self-portrait of the person who does it. Autograph your
work with excellence.

== 3 of 13 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 18 2008 7:56 am
From: George Grapman

Melinda Meahan - take out TRASH to reply wrote:
> sarge137 wrote:
>>
>> Oh please! It's 2008 - anyone without job skills is stupid and lazy,
>> not worth my sympathy.
>
> I guess this is more the problem than the people telemarketing, because
> your statement is totally untrue. Not that SOME people without job
> skills might not be, but there are still lots of people around who are
> handicapped by how and/or where they were raised and aren't fortunate
> enough to be able to pay for job training, and public schools are doing
> worse and worse these days.
>
I agree with that but I find it hard to believe that anyone with the
skills to at least read off of a canned pitch can not see a problem when
person after person tells them they are violating the law.

== 4 of 13 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 18 2008 8:01 am
From: George Grapman

Melinda Meahan - take out TRASH to reply wrote:
> sfgeorge@paccbell.net wrote:
>>
>> I have had numerous callers ask for my credit card or checking info.
>> When i ask for their company name they often hang up the phone.
>> Obviously they were told to do that similar the office I mentioned
>> where we were told never to answer the phone. I can not believe that
>> some who is told those things can thing it is a legitimate business.
>
> I will concede that if they are asking for your money, they should tell
> you who you are paying. But lots of people carrying the label
> "telemarketer" are only people opening a door, appointment setting,
> trying to collect names of people who are interested, etc., and those
> people might be working for a telemarketing service and not actually
> know who the end-user business is.
>
Agreed, but wouldn't you be suspicious if your employer told you not
to reveal anything?
By the way, we are currently hiring people to call businesses to set
appointments and are paying them a decent amount just to get in the
door. I do not believe in canned pitches but have told people that at
the very start they are to give their name and the name of the company.

== 5 of 13 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 18 2008 8:04 am
From: George Grapman

Melinda Meahan - take out TRASH to reply wrote:
> sfgeorge@paccbell.net wrote:
>> Melinda Meahan - take out TRASH to reply wrote:
>>> The person calling you on the phone is not legally responsible.
>>
>> That is like saying that if someone asks you to bring a package over
>> the border you are not responsible for determining the contents. As
>> another poster noted once a few people have mentioned to Do Not Call
>> law you have been made ware that the law is being broken.
>
> No, it's not. If you prosecute, the person who is talking on the phone
> is merely a pawn and will not be prosecuted for what they did; only the
> company who authorized it to be done.
>

I am not an attorney and will have to look this up later but there is
some legal principal involved regarding complicity if it is obvious that
a law is being broken. Granted, I have never read of a telemarketer
being charged but as I noted if caller after caller asks why you are
violating the law that should be a warning sign.

== 6 of 13 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 18 2008 9:43 am
From: Melinda Meahan - take out TRASH to reply

George Grapman wrote:
>
> Agreed, but wouldn't you be suspicious if your employer told you not
> to reveal anything?

Well, I suppose my attitudes are colored by the fact that decades ago as
a young adult, I worked at a market research company conducting market
research surveys and inviting people to paid focus groups, things that
would not be covered by the DNC list today, and we were not even told
who we were conducting the research for in order to get objective
opinions.

> By the way, we are currently hiring people to call businesses to set
> appointments and are paying them a decent amount just to get in the
> door. I do not believe in canned pitches but have told people that at
> the very start they are to give their name and the name of the company.

That sounds reasonable to me. But since I have very poor audio
retention, I honestly never, EVER listen to telemarketers because I know
they are generally paid on commission and have to be desperate for work
to work at a place like that, so I don't take up their time.

--
Every job is a self-portrait of the person who does it. Autograph your
work with excellence.

== 7 of 13 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 18 2008 10:02 am
From: "Rod Speed"

Melinda Meahan - take out TRASH to reply <mmeahan@TRASHsonic.net> wrote:
> sfgeorge@paccbell.net wrote:
>> Melinda Meahan - take out TRASH to reply wrote:
>>> The person calling you on the phone is not legally responsible.
>>
>> That is like saying that if someone asks you to bring a package
>> over the border you are not responsible for determining the
>> contents. As another poster noted once a few people have mentioned
>> to Do Not Call law you have been made ware that the law is being
>> broken.
>
> No, it's not. If you prosecute, the person who is talking on the
> phone is merely a pawn and will not be prosecuted for what they did;
> only the company who authorized it to be done.

Irrelevant to whether the monkey is involved in illegal activity.

The reason the employer is prosecuted is because once the employer
is forced to change its behaviour, the illegal activity stops. If they
prosecute the monkey, the employer just employs another monkey.

== 8 of 13 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 18 2008 10:04 am
From: "Rod Speed"

Melinda Meahan - take out TRASH to reply <mmeahan@TRASHsonic.net> wrote:
> sfgeorge@paccbell.net wrote:
>>
>> I have had numerous callers ask for my credit card or checking
>> info. When i ask for their company name they often hang up the phone.
>> Obviously they were told to do that similar the office I mentioned
>> where we were told never to answer the phone. I can not believe that
>> some who is told those things can thing it is a legitimate business.
>
> I will concede that if they are asking for your money, they should
> tell you who you are paying. But lots of people carrying the label
> "telemarketer" are only people opening a door, appointment setting,
> trying to collect names of people who are interested, etc., and those
> people might be working for a telemarketing service and not actually
> know who the end-user business is.

Then they would say that and not just hang up.

== 9 of 13 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 18 2008 10:07 am
From: "Rod Speed"

Melinda Meahan - take out TRASH to reply <mmeahan@TRASHsonic.net> wrote:
> George Grapman wrote:
>>
>> Agreed, but wouldn't you be suspicious if your employer told you
>> not to reveal anything?
>
> Well, I suppose my attitudes are colored by the fact that decades ago
> as a young adult, I worked at a market research company conducting
> market research surveys and inviting people to paid focus groups,
> things that would not be covered by the DNC list today, and we were
> not even told who we were conducting the research for in order to get
> objective opinions.

You were told who you were working for tho and
could have said that, the research operation.

>> By the way, we are currently hiring people to call businesses to
>> set appointments and are paying them a decent amount just to get in
>> the door. I do not believe in canned pitches but have told people
>> that at the very start they are to give their name and the name of
>> the company.

> That sounds reasonable to me. But since I have very poor audio
> retention, I honestly never, EVER listen to telemarketers because I
> know they are generally paid on commission and have to be desperate
> for work to work at a place like that, so I don't take up their time.

So you arent in any position to be able to say what they say.

== 10 of 13 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 18 2008 10:08 am
From: "Rod Speed"

Melinda Meahan - take out TRASH to reply <mmeahan@TRASHsonic.net> wrote:
> sarge137 wrote:
>>
>> Oh please! It's 2008 - anyone without job skills is stupid and lazy,
>> not worth my sympathy.
>
> I guess this is more the problem than the people telemarketing,
> because your statement is totally untrue. Not that SOME people
> without job skills might not be, but there are still lots of people
> around who are handicapped by how and/or where they were raised and
> aren't fortunate enough to be able to pay for job training, and
> public schools are doing worse and worse these days.

You dont have to pay for it, anyone with a clue can
find a decent job when the unemployment rate is 4.x%

== 11 of 13 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 18 2008 10:28 am
From: Melinda Meahan - take out TRASH to reply

Excuse me, but are you really saying that whether someone is legally
liable for something has no bearing to whether they would be prosecuted
for the crime?

Rod Speed wrote:
> Melinda Meahan - take out TRASH to reply <mmeahan@TRASHsonic.net> wrote:
>> sfgeorge@paccbell.net wrote:
>>> Melinda Meahan - take out TRASH to reply wrote:
>>>> The person calling you on the phone is not legally responsible.
>>> That is like saying that if someone asks you to bring a package
>>> over the border you are not responsible for determining the
>>> contents. As another poster noted once a few people have mentioned
>>> to Do Not Call law you have been made ware that the law is being
>>> broken.
>> No, it's not. If you prosecute, the person who is talking on the
>> phone is merely a pawn and will not be prosecuted for what they did;
>> only the company who authorized it to be done.
>
> Irrelevant to whether the monkey is involved in illegal activity.

--
Every job is a self-portrait of the person who does it. Autograph your
work with excellence.

== 12 of 13 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 18 2008 10:29 am
From: Melinda Meahan - take out TRASH to reply

Rod Speed wrote:
>
> You dont have to pay for it, anyone with a clue can
> find a decent job when the unemployment rate is 4.x%

Not in my area. It's hard for anybody to get a "starter job" around
here because all the immigrants, legal or il-, have them all snapped up.

--
Every job is a self-portrait of the person who does it. Autograph your
work with excellence.

== 13 of 13 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 18 2008 10:30 am
From: George Grapman

Melinda Meahan - take out TRASH to reply wrote:
> George Grapman wrote:
>>
>> Agreed, but wouldn't you be suspicious if your employer told you
>> not to reveal anything?
>
> Well, I suppose my attitudes are colored by the fact that decades ago as
> a young adult, I worked at a market research company conducting market
> research surveys and inviting people to paid focus groups, things that
> would not be covered by the DNC list today, and we were not even told
> who we were conducting the research for in order to get objective opinions.

I have participated in many focus groups. Sometimes they are very
clear about who the client is other times they are not. Sometimes it was
very obvious as they had me go to a web site to conduct transaction.
Other times it was a secret. I did a mock trial on a tobacco law
suit.During the "deliberations" the person running the group got into
the face of those who sided with the plaintiff. I assumed the tobacco
people were picking up the tab but then considered the possibility that
he was playing devils advocate.
One time the phone screens asked a bunch of questions. The last one
was whether I was taking any prescription medications. When I said,no"
she told me the good news was I was health but the bad news was I did
not qualify.
>
>> By the way, we are currently hiring people to call businesses to set
>> appointments and are paying them a decent amount just to get in the
>> door. I do not believe in canned pitches but have told people that at
>> the very start they are to give their name and the name of the company.
>
> That sounds reasonable to me. But since I have very poor audio
> retention, I honestly never, EVER listen to telemarketers because I know
> they are generally paid on commission and have to be desperate for work
> to work at a place like that, so I don't take up their time.
>

It is a different situation when calling businesses because the
people answering the phone are doing that all day had have to pay
attention to each call. I am often able to get cooperation because I
sell phone systems and while the person answering the phone is not the
decision maker they sometimes will be very helpful because if they have
a bad system that person is the one dealing with problems every day.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: non-toxic glassware/ dinnerware?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/35038ef875d8eac3?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 18 2008 7:41 am
From: Melinda Meahan - take out TRASH to reply

Shawn Hirn wrote:
>
> Why is this a problem? Retailers can simply refuse to sell any produce
> that is not clearly marked, "safe for food consumption" or something
> along those lines. In fact, I would hope this proposition 65 requires
> such labeling in order to make it easy for retailers to identify any
> products that do contain toxic substances.

The stores were basically forced into doing what they did to totally
protect themselves from lawsuits.

Prop 65 was a ballot initiative put on the ballot by getting enough
people to sign a petition asking for it. It sounds like a good idea,
but it was too easy to render useless and so time-consuming to comply
with in an ideal fashion that most businesses opted for the easy,
brain-dead solution, which is why it never should have been put on the
ballot in the first place.

--
Every job is a self-portrait of the person who does it. Autograph your
work with excellence.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Sexycollegegirl.net free video archive
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/3642fac2674d8fe3?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 18 2008 7:46 am
From: jvhukgvjfc@gmail.com

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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Cool Furniture Blog
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/22915b466da3b5ab?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 18 2008 8:43 am
From: webmediagroup@gmail.com

I found a cool furniture blog where I was able to find some great
deals through affiliate programs on it:
http://homefurniture180.com

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Generic Lipitor any time soon?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/aa4400046e779ff1?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 18 2008 8:43 am
From: me@privacy.net

Shawn Hirn <srhi@comcast.net> wrote:

>> For anyone who is in same boat.... unemployed and
>> without health insurance to cover drug costs.... check
>> into Costco as a source of simvastatin form Ranbuxy. I
>> got 180 day supply simvastatin form Costco for abt $20
>> total!!!!!
>
>What about Wal-Mart? I believe they offer Simvastatin for four bucks.

Last time I looked Walmart only offered lovastatin and
something else.... but NOT simvastatin.

My doctor didn't want me taking lovastatin as he said
it was even less potent than simvastatin.

My docs order of preference was..... Lipitor, than
simvastatin

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 18 2008 8:45 am
From: me@privacy.net

Shawn Hirn <srhi@comcast.net> wrote:

>What about Wal-Mart? I believe they offer Simvastatin for four bucks.

Just looked online... Walmart only has lovastatin and
pravastatin.... no simvastatin as of yet.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: All about DOGS
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/17575d47b81b90b5?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 18 2008 8:54 am
From: mayabeever@yahoo.com

How much do you know about Dogs?

http://www.dogsinfos.com

==============================================================================
TOPIC: GM Standard Operating Proceedure
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/4535c44419bd7038?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 18 2008 8:58 am
From: "misterfact@yahoo.com"

Saturn (GM) STANDARD OPERATING PROCEEDURE

When we at GM discover an epidemic costly flaw in our cars (like
casting flaws in our cylinder heads that will cause the head to
eventually CRACK); and before we become aware of the problem, tens of
thousands of cars with the flaw have gone off the assembly line to
dealers and customers

We withold that information (sending out a service notice) for as
long
as we can- so as to get as many of those cars affected, OVER the
warranty period. That way, we are not liable to cover the cost of the
repair or replacement and we are able to cut our loses!

Also: If a new car customer who has been taking his car to the
dealer
for regular scheduled maintainance, CHANGES ADDRESS, and the dealer
fails to notify the company of the new address and because of this
dealer failure- we send out a service notice to the old address and
thus the notice never reaches the customer:

When the service notice is returned to us as "undeliverable"; we
will
NOT make any attempt to reach the customer at his new address and
notify him of the service notice. We are not liable for our dealer's
failure nor will we take any action against our dealer for this
failure
in an attempt to compensate the customer,should he have been unaware
of
the notice and suffers a costly repair bill after his warranty has
run
out!

Anyone who doubts the above policy can contact (among many others):
Grand Rapids (Michigan) Saturn.

(That is; if anyone there admits his knowledge of and has the
COURAGE
to verify the above policy)
signed.

Michael Cohrman
misterf...@yahoo.com

The above policy is known by many but I have never seen it posted
anywhere. If you want to verify or deny the above policy from your
own
experience- please do!

Want specific examples of GM witholding costly information on their
cars? Contact: misterfact@yahoo.com

Patricia of Bath ME (9/15/03):
Cylinder head cracked, Saturn is aware there is a problem but their
position is, if it didn't happen in 6 years or 100,000 miles
(whichever
came first) I'm out of luck. Of course the local dealer will fix it
for
$1,800. I own a 1994 Saturn SW1 with 94,502 miles. The service
bullentin came out in 1999. I believe that they knew it to be a
defect
in the parts they used and it should be fixed no matter what the age
of
the car.

Of couse they would like the public to think that after their
timeframe
the car will never have the problem or by magic it will repair
itself.
If the only humans worked this way after 6 years all birth defects
would just disappear. What a wonderful world it would be. All I have
to
say is -- dream on, Saturn. I can't wait to get the car fixed and
trade
it in for another car.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Why do people stay in overpriced real estate markets?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/56d80a4d61e1222e?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 18 2008 9:49 am
From: michaelcaltman@gmail.com

On Jan 15, 7:59 pm, Too_Many_Tools <too_many_to...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Jan 15, 5:49 pm, inva...@notreal.none (Beachcomber) wrote:
>
>
>
> > >There is your explanation right there, in that word -
> > >"speculation." There are folks out there who simply cannot
> > >comprehend the value of a house or condo going down. Or staying
> > >stagnant, while inflation causes that amount of dollars to be
> > >worth less. They absolutely assume thatrealestateis a
> > >guaranteed, quick, easy, huge profit-maker.
>
> > >Lots of people cannot see the overall big picture, because their
> > >vision is blocked by the dollar-signs rolling up in their eyes.
>
> > >And they want to buy NOW, because they don't have the patience or
> > >attention span to think and act in terms of economic cycles
> > >spanning several years or more.
>
> > >If you try to warn them otherwise, they refuse to listen.
>
> > And a lot of otherwise intelligent people would sign for a mortgage on
> > whatever terms their sub-prime lender served up for them. Many of
> > them were whipped into a frenzy and were afraid of missing out on
> > jumping on the home ownership train.
>
> > Everyone sort of gets into the act to encourage this "ownership at any
> > price mentality"...realestateagents don't want to sell you a house,
> > they want you to buy into having a home in a "neighborhood",
> > regardless of what you think you can afford. Appraisers and home
> > inspectors have a vested interest in turnover.
>
> > Beachcomber- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Everyone ...and I mean everyone ...related to the housing market has a
> vested interest for a transaction to occur.
>
> Everyone that is except for the buyer...who is supplying the cash to
> make it happen.
>
> A vested interest does not mean the best interest for the buyer.
>
> Remember this whenever you are the buyer and it will serve you well.
>
> TMT

Okay, I got really tired of the WINTER BLUES. UGH! We found out that
it is vital to get Vitamin D to get and feel healthy all year! We
tried Cod Liver Oil and that worked pretty good but not enough! Then
we realized we needed to make a complete latitude adjustment and
moved
SOUTH to get more sun! We found http://www.your-new-home-in-florida.com
and have decided to move to Orlando Florida! Love the folks at Royal
Palm homes! We are getting the condo of our dreams!

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 18 2008 10:28 am
From: Cindy Hamilton

On Jan 18, 12:49 pm, michaelcalt...@gmail.com wrote:

> Okay, I got really tired of the WINTER BLUES. UGH! We found out that
> it is vital to get Vitamin D to get and feel healthy all year! We
> tried Cod Liver Oil and that worked pretty good but not enough! Then
> we realized we needed to make a complete latitude adjustment and
> moved
> SOUTH to get more sun! We foundhttp://www.your-new-home-in-florida.com
> and have decided to move to Orlando Florida! Love the folks at Royal
> Palm homes! We are getting the condo of our dreams!

Dreaming of a condo strikes me as setting your sights a little low.

My dreams include acreage. My husband would like to be able to step
out the back door and shoot skeet.

Cindy Hamilton

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Economy Stimulus - Buy!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/4b029279ea6e8dd0?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 18 2008 9:55 am
From: Napoleon

Enlighten me. How is a tax rebate check of the 300 dollars going to
stimulate the economy out of a recession? Since when have Americans no
longer been considered "citizens" and are now just consumers?

How is it that 300 bucks in the hands of low-income, middle-income and
basically most Americans, is going to translate into jobs that are
not outsourced, universal health care, businesses actually
manufacturing goods, technology actually looking into alternative
fuels, property taxes going down or being eliminated, etc, etc.

It's not. Remember when the "War for freedom for all repressed
regimes, oops just Iraq" was first waged and Americans were all
advised to shop til you drop! Shouldn't Americans have conserved
energy, and goods and been willing to pay more taxes instead? Of
course.

But Americans are no longer people who live meaningful lives. They are
only consumers of cheap foreign goods. Reminds me of the Roman empire,
before its collapse.

-N

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Why we don't need Mexicans
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/a33d78e3d758123f?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 18 2008 10:15 am
From: "Rod Speed"

Benj <bjacoby@iwaynet.net> wrote
> Billzz <billzzstr...@starband.net> wrote

>> Probably not what anyone wanted to hear.

> That is EXACTLY what everyone needed to hear.

Nope, it was just the usual mindless hysterical hyperventilation.

There wont be any great depression, you watch.

And even if there was, modern welfare ensures that it wont be anything like the last one.

> These days everyone things that leftists disappeared with the fall of the USSR.

Only the pig ignorant fools.

> But it seems that now the USA is the last bastion of communism.

You wouldnt know what communism was if it bit you on your lard arse.

> Only they've all changed there names to "progressive". Who
> could be against "progress"? Right? Just listen to the media
> go on and on about all the "progressive" Democrat candidates
> and memories of Gus Hall will come flooding back!

Only for fools that have never had a clue. You qualify.

> Like you say name-calling is a Commie Techniques 101. Just look
> at "Rod Speed's" post below. He's clearly VERY "progressive"!

You wouldnt know what 'progressive' was if one bit you on your lard arse either.

> What people DO need to hear is some Truth about how the
> USSR was NEVER The "envy of the world" they pretend it was

They never ever attempted to spread communism eh ?

> and some facts about what "progressives" are really after.

Easy to claim, hell of a lot harder to actually substantiate that claim.

> Right, Cold war Soviet Union.

Just another of your pathetic little pig ignorant drug crazed fantasys.

What the entire modern first world with the exception of the US has is
nothing even remotely resembling anything like cold war soviet union, fool.

> Now THAT was the good life!

You're always welcome to bugger off to North Korea any time you like, comrade.

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Friday, January 18, 2008

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