Frugal Living: 24 new messages in 11 topics

Wednesday, February 6, 2008

24 new messages in 11 topics - digest

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: BEST LCD OR PLASMA 42" TV SET ON MARKET???
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/3cb34b276c0ce20e?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 6 2008 12:40 pm
From: Dennis

On Wed, 06 Feb 2008 05:39:41 -0500, Shawn Hirn <srhi@comcast.net>
wrote:

>My Scientific Atlanta HD DVD box from Comcast has an HDMI connector;
>however, my HD TV does not, so I use its component video connectors.
>Works fine for TV viewing and recording.

Please explain how you record HD signal from component (not composite
or S-video) outputs in full resolution.

Dennis (evil)
--
The honest man is the one who realizes that he cannot
consume more, in his lifetime, than he produces.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 6 2008 5:22 pm
From: Logan Shaw

Shawn Hirn wrote:
> In article <47a96826$0$30720$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>,
> Logan Shaw <lshaw-usenet@austin.rr.com> wrote:

>> "They certainly don't let you copy it to an external device *which
>> has non-emphemeral storage*."

> Perfectly clear, but totally wrong.

OK, I'll bite: how do I get encrypted QAM into a format I
can control (has no DRM) without going through an analog gap?
Set-top box with Firewire?

- Logan

==============================================================================
TOPIC: What is your water usage?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/bd562b37685d1e02?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 6 2008 12:47 pm
From: Paul M. Eldridge

On Wed, 06 Feb 2008 13:58:27 -0500, hchickpea@hotmail.com wrote:

>I just had a chance to do some comparisons, and I'm stunned how much
>less water we are using in our manufactured home in Alabama than we
>were in our old home in south Florida. There are a number of factors
>involved, including climate, but the variations in useage bear
>examining. [...]

Congrats, Harry! With our most recent statement in hand, and looking
at just this past year, we used a total of eleven cubic metres over an
86 day period ending December 20th; that works out to be 128 litres
per day or about 34 U.S. gallons/day for a two person household. Our
highest recorded usage was for the billing cycle ending August 25th --
over the course of those 83 days, we used an average of 181 litres per
day or 48 U.S. gallons. Our increased consumption can be largely
attributed to watering the garden and overnight guests. Our lowest
consumption was the 85 day stretch ending March 28th, when we used
just 82 litres per day (22 U.S. gallons/day).

Low-flow shower heads, 6 litre flush toilets, an energy and water
efficient BOSCH dishwasher and a front load washer take much of the
credit, but we're also both pretty frugal by nature so, for example,
the five litres drawn off before each shower waiting for the water to
get hot is collected in a watering can and used to flush toilets. I
also do most of our dishes by hand and the rinse water is likewise
captured and recycled for flushing.

We use so little water the city has inspected our meter twice and
replaced it once, and the meter reader has been sent back a couple
times to confirm readings. I confess part of the satisfaction of
using so little water is messing with their heads. ;-)

Cheers,
Paul

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 6 2008 2:26 pm
From: "John Weiss"

<hchickpea@hotmail.com> wrote...
>
> We were hooked to city water and tried to be prudent, but not
> obsessive about our water use. A low usage month was measured at
> 33000 gallons, with a couple months over a five year period close to 3
> times that figure.
>
> At our new home, we have a high-efficiency clothes washer, dishwasher,
> 1.6gpf toilets, spa tub, and we shower regularly using a low-flow
> showerhead (but less than in Florida where we were sweating all the
> time). Water is at about 45PSI through the regulator. We have an
> 1100 gal storage cistern, which gets filled about 3 times a month.
>
> 3300 gallons compared to 33000 gallons is a tenfold difference with no
> pain,

I just looked at mine, and it averages 3938 gal/mo for the year. Low is 2625 in
Feb-Mar, and high is 6750 in Aug-Sep (when our neighbor waters the maple trees
is his "nursery annex" in our yard). So, the 2 of us alone use less than 100
gal/day -- still more than I would have guessed, until I recall how long it
takes my wife to shower... :-)

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 6 2008 4:10 pm
From: Too_Many_Tools

On Feb 6, 12:58 pm, hchick...@hotmail.com wrote:
> I just had a chance to do some comparisons, and I'm stunned how much
> less water we are using in our manufactured home in Alabama than we
> were in our old home in south Florida. There are a number of factors
> involved, including climate, but the variations in useage bear
> examining.
>
> If you want to compare from your own water bills, a hundred cubic feet
> of water is 750 gallons.
>
> In the old home, we had a regular big old top load clothes washer,
> washed some dishes by hand until the last few months there, had
> regular showerheads, had the old style toilets that were flushed
> whenever they were used, watered plants in the winter, had to add
> water to the pool every few months, and during the summer only,
> minimally used the roof sprinkler to extend the life of the roof (low
> flow setting, total of about 40 min of watering a day. Water pressure
> was about 60 psi.
>
> We were hooked to city water and tried to be prudent, but not
> obsessive about our water use. A low usage month was measured at
> 33000 gallons, with a couple months over a five year period close to 3
> times that figure. Looking back, I'm astounded how much water we
> used, or supposedly used, especially since we had our own irrigation
> well for watering the lawn, which isn't included in those figures.
>
> When we lived in the camper this past summer, our well could only
> produce 25 gal/day and we used less than 750 gal/mo. The toilet was a
> camper toilet, which might use a pint of water per flush, showers were
> limited to about five minutes or less, and we had no clothes washer,
> dishwasher, pool, or roof sprinkler. We did water plants, but there
> weren't as many to water.
>
> At our new home, we have a high-efficiency clothes washer, dishwasher,
> 1.6gpf toilets, spa tub, and we shower regularly using a low-flow
> showerhead (but less than in Florida where we were sweating all the
> time). Water is at about 45PSI through the regulator. We have an
> 1100 gal storage cistern, which gets filled about 3 times a month.
>
> 3300 gallons compared to 33000 gallons is a tenfold difference with no
> pain, and the camper use of 750 gallons per month is 1/4 of that
> amount. The differences are amazing, and I've become convinced that
> the water saving devices are all they claim to be. Even though our
> water here is essentially free, I'm tickled, since the septic system
> will be that much less loaded and the costs of heating water will be
> reduced.

I know what you mean.

With a family of four, showers, hand dish washing, flushing of toilets
when necessary...we see a typical usage of 500-600 gals/month....with
no real sacrifice of quality of life.

While that may seem low, we manage our lives so if we lose our water
supply the impact of replacing it will be minimal.

If you have ever had to haul water on a long period basis you learn
quickly to conserve and reuse.

Our other utilities bills are also much smaller than our neighbors'
similar bills...being fugal is a lifestyle choice.

TMT

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Your vacation
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/83ec6afd854d1b73?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 6 2008 12:46 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

eterica <eterica@altermedica.net> wrote

> Your vacation

> Your vacation in Croatia.

Just another of your pathetic little drug crazed fantasys.

> Please visit us on http://www.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Bugger off. No please, thats an order.

> Search your Croatian destination and travel.

> If you know something interesting about Croatia, write & share with us.

They like killing people, particularly serbs and moslems.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Why Traditional SPAM is not desired on the newgroup
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/501e63bdc45b7cb2?hl=en
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== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 6 2008 1:28 pm
From: clams_casino

rox wrote:

>"clams_casino" <PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote in message
>news:nrlqj.44297$m6.34873@newsfe18.lga...
>
>
>>Cheapo Groovo wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Corporate downsizing is here to stay.
>>>
>>>
>>Does abuse@cogentco.com, abuse@wideopenwest.com & abuse@giganews.com agree
>>with the way you continually spam this newsgroup?
>>
>>
>
>From the amount of crap I see--giganews could not care less. Nor, I bet,
>can those others mentioned above.
>
>
>
>
The amusing part about giganews is that they reject all complaints sent
to abuse@gignews.com as spam (they don't accept spam)..

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 6 2008 1:39 pm
From: "rox"

"clams_casino" <PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote in message
news:UDpqj.21227$OC1.7784@newsfe20.lga...
> rox wrote:
>
>>"clams_casino" <PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote in message
>>news:nrlqj.44297$m6.34873@newsfe18.lga...
>>
>>>Cheapo Groovo wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Corporate downsizing is here to stay.
>>>>
>>>Does abuse@cogentco.com, abuse@wideopenwest.com & abuse@giganews.com
>>>agree with the way you continually spam this newsgroup?
>>>
>>
>>From the amount of crap I see--giganews could not care less. Nor, I
>>bet, can those others mentioned above.
>>
>>
> The amusing part about giganews is that they reject all complaints sent to
> abuse@gignews.com as spam (they don't accept spam)..

That makes perfect sense. I am now at one with the universe :)

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 6 2008 1:49 pm
From: clams_casino

rox wrote:

>"clams_casino" <PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote in message
>news:UDpqj.21227$OC1.7784@newsfe20.lga...
>
>
>>rox wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>"clams_casino" <PeterGriffin@DrunkinClam.com> wrote in message
>>>news:nrlqj.44297$m6.34873@newsfe18.lga...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Cheapo Groovo wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Corporate downsizing is here to stay.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>Does abuse@cogentco.com, abuse@wideopenwest.com & abuse@giganews.com
>>>>agree with the way you continually spam this newsgroup?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>From the amount of crap I see--giganews could not care less. Nor, I
>>
>>
>>>bet, can those others mentioned above.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>The amusing part about giganews is that they reject all complaints sent to
>>abuse@gignews.com as spam (they don't accept spam)..
>>
>>
>
>That makes perfect sense. I am now at one with the universe :)
>
>
>
>
Just got another complaint rejected by giganews - "Sender address
rejected: We don't accept junk mail"

==============================================================================
TOPIC: How to get your grocer to carry an item?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/d92bd3df49819244?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 6 2008 1:29 pm
From: The Real Bev

OhioGuy wrote:

> Have you ever been in a similar situation, where your local grocers won't
> carry something you really want? How have you been successful in obtaining
> it? Anyone have any suggestions on how I might proceed?

Ask the manager. Little Debbie Marshmallow Supremes are extremely good
junk food for the price, but very few stores carry them. The manager of
my Ralph's/Kroger ordered a box (what, a couple dozen boxes?) of them.
I bought several and the rest were also sold, apparently. No repeat
order, though. Short attention span...

--
Cheers,
Bev
ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
"Few skills are so well rewarded as the ability to convince
parasites that they are victims." --Thomas Sowell

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 6 2008 6:33 pm
From: Charles Quinn

"OhioGuy" <none@none.net> wrote in news:foci5t$tdb$1@aioe.org:

> http://www.delmonte.com/products/TomatoesList.asp?typeID=16
>
>
> I'm especially looking for the Garlic & Herb, Tomato & Basil, plus
> the 4
> Cheese varieties. About 6 years ago, when I lived in a different
> neighborhood, I stopped in a tiny local grocery store. Inside, I saw
> a variety of cans of Del Monte spaghetti sauces. I had never seen
> this brand before, since I typically went with Hunt's or store brand,
> so I gave them a try. I fell in love especially with the Garlic &
> Herb. The Del Monte brand is sweeter and less salty than Hunt's and
> other brands I've had in the past, and I truly prefer it a lot.
>
> The problem is that the tiny grocery store went out of business, and
> I
> can't find these varieties locally. Wal-Mart carries the basic meat
> and mushroom versions of Del Monte, but I don't like those that much.
> We have Kroger and Meijer grocery chains here in the Dayton, Ohio
> area, but it seems like they only want to carry Ragu, Hunt's, and the
> store brand. I've brought up my requests to carry the Del Monte
> several times, but they never add it.
>
> Have you ever been in a similar situation, where your local grocers
> won't
> carry something you really want? How have you been successful in
> obtaining it? Anyone have any suggestions on how I might proceed?
>
>

Call the manufacturer and ask them if there is a store in your area that
carries the items you desire.

Charles
The significant problems we face cannot be solved
at the same level of thinking we were at when we
created them. Albert Einstein

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 6 2008 8:05 pm
From: Stan Horwitz

In article <foci5t$tdb$1@aioe.org>, "OhioGuy" <none@none.net> wrote:

> http://www.delmonte.com/products/TomatoesList.asp?typeID=16
>
>
> I'm especially looking for the Garlic & Herb, Tomato & Basil, plus the 4
> Cheese varieties. About 6 years ago, when I lived in a different
> neighborhood, I stopped in a tiny local grocery store. Inside, I saw a
> variety of cans of Del Monte spaghetti sauces. I had never seen this brand
> before, since I typically went with Hunt's or store brand, so I gave them a
> try. I fell in love especially with the Garlic & Herb. The Del Monte brand
> is sweeter and less salty than Hunt's and other brands I've had in the past,
> and I truly prefer it a lot.
>
> The problem is that the tiny grocery store went out of business, and I
> can't find these varieties locally. Wal-Mart carries the basic meat and
> mushroom versions of Del Monte, but I don't like those that much. We have
> Kroger and Meijer grocery chains here in the Dayton, Ohio area, but it seems
> like they only want to carry Ragu, Hunt's, and the store brand. I've
> brought up my requests to carry the Del Monte several times, but they never
> add it.
>
> Have you ever been in a similar situation, where your local grocers won't
> carry something you really want? How have you been successful in obtaining
> it? Anyone have any suggestions on how I might proceed?

I googled for "Delmonte sauce" and came up with

http://www.shopfoodex.com/pasta-sauce-pasta-sauce-hunts-monte-c-1944_1626
_2061.html?osCsid=9f0eff938c641120393d14676d830169

or just to to http://www.shopfoodex.com/ and look up sauces. The four
cheese variety is there. You might also try contacting this company to
see if they will carry the other Delmonte sauces on your shopping list.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Wc value PLUS-V
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/3ae51113bd408333?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 6 2008 2:20 pm
From: dienacameron@yahoo.com

PLEASE NOTE THAT I AM MAKING A COMPLAINT AGAINST Wc value PLUS-V. SO
FAR THEY HAVE TAKEN $159.69 OUT OF MY ACCOUNT WITHOUT MY PERMISSION.
MY BANK SAYS THEY CAN ONLY GO BACK AS FAR AS 60 DAYS, WHICH COMES OUT
TO $39.98. Wc value SAYS THEY WILL CANCEL MY " MEMBERSHIP" FOR ME AND
REFUND THE WHOLE AMOUNT BUT IT WILL TAKE 1-2 BILLING CYCLES. WHO AND
WHAT IS THIS COMPANY AND WHY ARE THEY STILL IN BUSINESS??????. I WISH
I HAD THE MONEY TO SUE THESE GUYS.

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 6 2008 2:43 pm
From: Al Bundy

On Feb 6, 5:20 pm, dienacame...@yahoo.com wrote:
> PLEASE NOTE THAT I AM MAKING A COMPLAINT AGAINST Wc value PLUS-V. SO
> FAR THEY HAVE TAKEN $159.69 OUT OF MY ACCOUNT WITHOUT MY PERMISSION.
> MY BANK SAYS THEY CAN ONLY GO BACK AS FAR AS 60 DAYS, WHICH COMES OUT
> TO $39.98. Wc value SAYS THEY WILL CANCEL MY " MEMBERSHIP" FOR ME AND
> REFUND THE WHOLE AMOUNT BUT IT WILL TAKE 1-2 BILLING CYCLES. WHO AND
> WHAT IS THIS COMPANY AND WHY ARE THEY STILL IN BUSINESS??????. I WISH
> I HAD THE MONEY TO SUE THESE GUYS.

Those bastards.
When did they bill you for the $159.69? If your bank allows you to go
back 60 days and that amounts to $39.98, does that mean you let it go
almost eight months? DUH.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 6 2008 5:05 pm
From: "Stormin Mormon"

1) I wish I had a sausage

2) I wish the sausage was at the end of your nose

3) I WISH YOUR KEYBOARD CAPS LOCK WAS REPAIRED

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus

www.lds.org
.

<dienacameron@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:0f4048ed-c27c-494c-b718-163b8dbf4546@i72g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
PLEASE NOTE THAT I AM MAKING A COMPLAINT AGAINST Wc value PLUS-V. SO
FAR THEY HAVE TAKEN $159.69 OUT OF MY ACCOUNT WITHOUT MY PERMISSION.
MY BANK SAYS THEY CAN ONLY GO BACK AS FAR AS 60 DAYS, WHICH COMES OUT
TO $39.98. Wc value SAYS THEY WILL CANCEL MY " MEMBERSHIP" FOR ME AND
REFUND THE WHOLE AMOUNT BUT IT WILL TAKE 1-2 BILLING CYCLES. WHO AND
WHAT IS THIS COMPANY AND WHY ARE THEY STILL IN BUSINESS??????. I WISH
I HAD THE MONEY TO SUE THESE GUYS.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: IDT wants to charge me a dollar to send me a bill
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/ac164cb61a75e7fd?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 6 2008 2:53 pm
From: Al Bundy

On Feb 6, 2:10 pm, Terry <kilow...@charter.net> wrote:
> IDT added a dollar to my three dollar phone bill. It was to send me a
> paper statment.
>
> I asked for a hard copy bill, only because it is a pain in the ass to
> have to log on to the utility company's web site to check my bill.
>
> I would love it if they just sent the statement in an email, but they
> don't do it that way. I have to set up a username and password.
> I pay the bill using direct draft so the only reason I want to see my
> statement is to check the call log. I then just throw the statement
> away.
>
> We are talking about a phone bill not a CIA secret document.
>
> Just sending an email should be enough security just to view the bill.
> I told them I was not going to pay for them to send me a bill. They
> could just cancel my service. They waived the charge, but ignored my
> suggestion just to email it to me.

My utility, DTE, is similarly disadvantaged. They recently encouraged
E-billing. The idea sounded worthwhile to me so I went to sign up.
After going through screen after screen to register, I went to pay my
bill. They expected me to enter the current date! If their programmers
can't figure out how to auto-fill the GD current date, I can't trust
them with my credit information. I told them they will get a stamp and
an envelope from me for the rest of my life.
More recently, they had a power outage. The web site was too busy to
handle any further reporting. However, a simple phone call completed
the report and also provided an estimate of the repair time
Some companies are mere pretenders when it comes to technology.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Homemade Valenitne's Day Gifts
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/0b982c2d3f8ffaee?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 6 2008 3:53 pm
From: gjensen

Valentine's Day

Go Green this Valentine's Day
http://www.familiesonlinemagazine.com/save-environment/valentine.html
As sweet and touching as flowers and candy are for Valentine's Day
gifts, you don't need to have them in order to give a great gift.
Think naturally, and ...

Have A Little Heart This Valentine's Day
http://www.familiesonlinemagazine.com/teens/valentine-gift.html
In the light of Valentine's Day, take some time to remind yourself how
great you are --- and pick up one of these adorable finds! These are
also fun gifts for a special friend!

Valentine's Day Crafts
http://www.familiesonlinemagazine.com/ValJaki.html

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Today Message :
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/46b316f1def908a3?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 6 2008 5:09 pm
From: nandhiniraj79@gmail.com

Today Message :

Complaining about others is often an admission of one's own
incompetence.

Condemn action, not people.

see and start Quickly new business
------------------------------------------------------
http://www.freewebs.com/business-xx
------------------------------------------------------

you want a money from loan

see and get loan
------------------------------------------------------
http://padmagirl.blogspot.com
------------------------------------------------------

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 6 2008 6:12 pm
From: The Real Bev

A stupid spammer wrote:

> Condemn action, not people.

Ridiculous. If you cut off a person's head he doesn't bother you any
more. Very different with actions, which can be repeated essentially
forever.

--
Cheers,
Bev
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
When cryptography is outlawed, only outlaws will
qwertzuio asdfghjk pyxcvbnml -- M. O'Dorney

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Can't pay? Just walk away.
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/5a07413ffe1cd66b?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 6 2008 5:29 pm
From: Snowbound

Hey, Borrower!

Screwed up your mortgage? Made all the wrong choices? You lucky real
estate investor, you STILL made the right choice! Thanks to recent
federal Debt Relief Legislation, by just walking away from your
overpriced speculative loser property and your lender, your credit can
recover faster than you can say "Bankruptcy? What's that?"

Why, in less that two years, you might just be able to qualify for
another fat, unaffordable mortgage! And you thought you lost everything.
Not to worry, even though this legislation benefits real estate
speculators the most, you too can win, win, win albeit at the expense of
your $500,000, 1 bedroom 1 bath bungalow, good economic practice and
national economic health!

Just don't declare bankruptcy, like someone in real financial trouble
might consider. If you declare bankruptcy, like some joker who lost
everything to unforseen disaster or illness, you are putting yourself at
the mercy of courts and banks (who make today's bankruptcy laws). If you
just walk away from a massive mortgage YOU freely chose, you get off
scott free, without any substantial penalty! After all, what
asset-draining cancer or chronic workplace injury could POSSIBLY be
worse than losing a home you couldn't afford in the first place?

Even if you can afford your mortgage payment, this legal "Debt Relief"
may make it smarter to skip out: let's say your white elephant is
depreciating faster than a balloon in a needle factory. Don't wait for
forclosure-- walk away now! The government wrote a special law, just for
YOU! Yay! Just go out the front door, get in your Escalade, and leave
your house (don't worry, mommy and daddy will put you up). Don't look
back, there is only a hard lesson to be learned there. Now stay clean on
your other debt (like your credit cards and your SUV payment), and in
two or three years, any lenders left who haven't gone belly-up will be
breaking down your door to LEND YOU MONEY AGAIN!

Golly gee, thanks Congress! Thanks, Mr. President! You all may be total
fuckheads intent on ruining the country, but you are OUR kinds of
fuckheads! These are the kinds of moments that make you glad we sent all
those soldiers to die in Iraq. This is what it means to be American.

<http://money.cnn.com/2008/02/06/real_estate/walking_away/index.htm?secti
on=money_topstories>

<http://tinyurl.com/2jht8x>

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 6 2008 6:11 pm
From: invalid@notreal.none (Beachcomber)

>Screwed up your mortgage? Made all the wrong choices? You lucky real
>estate investor, you STILL made the right choice! Thanks to recent
>federal Debt Relief Legislation, by just walking away from your
>overpriced speculative loser property and your lender, your credit can
>recover faster than you can say "Bankruptcy? What's that?"

Personally I think its wrong that Americans allow private companies
(the credit reporting agencies) keep secret files on citizens that
determine whether they are "credit worthy or not" and largely
determine what they will pay in interest charges for credit cards,
mortgages, etc.

What if you walked into a grocery store that charged high or low
prices for the same item dependant upon the the race or gender of the
person making the purchase? Nobody would put up with that...

The credit issuing companies are perfectly right in denying each
applicant credit or not, but if credit is granted... Everyone should
pay whatever market rate is in effect at the time.

It makes no sense to declare someone a deadbeat and then say "for you,
you get a 9%, 10%, or 15% mortgage when every else is paying 5 1/2%
or, we will start you at a low rate for a year, but after that, you
are going to pay bonzo big bucks at twice or three times the market
rate.

Beachcomber

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 6 2008 7:30 pm
From: timeOday

Beachcomber wrote:

> Personally I think its wrong that Americans allow private companies
> (the credit reporting agencies) keep secret files on citizens that
> determine whether they are "credit worthy or not" and largely
> determine what they will pay in interest charges for credit cards,
> mortgages, etc.

What's really ridiculous is that the credit reporting agencies receive a
special exemption from liability for the damages caused by reporting
false information about you. Their only obligation is to remove the
information once *you* prove them wrong. That's right, maintaining the
accuracy of their highly profitable database is somehow *your* job.

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 6 2008 7:47 pm
From: jik@kamens.brookline.ma.us (Jonathan Kamens)

invalid@notreal.none (Beachcomber) writes:
>>Screwed up your mortgage? Made all the wrong choices? You lucky real
>>estate investor, you STILL made the right choice! Thanks to recent
>>federal Debt Relief Legislation, by just walking away from your
>>overpriced speculative loser property and your lender, your credit can
>>recover faster than you can say "Bankruptcy? What's that?"
>
>Personally I think its wrong that Americans allow private companies
>(the credit reporting agencies) keep secret files

Secret? You can pay these agencies to get a complete copy of your
credit report any time you want. All of them are legally obligated by
Federal law to give you a free copy every year, and there are various
situations in which they would be legally obligated to give you a copy
more frequently than that. Not only will they give you a complete
copy of your credit report, they'll also, for little and often no
money, tell you what your FICO score is and even tell you specifically
what you can do to improve it.

>on citizens that
>determine whether they are "credit worthy or not" and largely
>determine what they will pay in interest charges for credit cards,
>mortgages, etc.

Your credit file does not determine what interest you pay; your
FINANCIAL HEALTH determines what interest you pay. The information in
your credit file is used to determine your financial health, but that
information is driven by your own behavior and financial circumstances;
it doesn't appear there like magic. And if there are mistakes, you
are legally entitled to correct them.

People who are better risks get better interest rates. It's really
that simple. It makes perfect sense.

>What if you walked into a grocery store that charged high or low
>prices for the same item dependant upon the the race or gender of the
>person making the purchase? Nobody would put up with that...

You seem to have gone off on a tangent here, because there's nothing
about race in credit files, and sex is not a factor in your FICO score.
While it's certainly true that some lenders discriminate based on race,
and who knows perhaps some also discriminate based on sex (although I
don't recall hearing anything specific about that), this really has
nothing to do with your credit file, and it's ILLEGAL to boot.

>The credit issuing companies are perfectly right in denying each
>applicant credit or not, but if credit is granted... Everyone should
>pay whatever market rate is in effect at the time.

No. The credit issuing companies are perfectly right to charge higher
interest rates to people who are higher risks, because a larger
percentage of those people are going to default on their debts, and the
interest the companies earn from the other borrowers in those risk
pools needs to make up for the losses.

Furthermore, purely from the point of view of supply and demand,
lower-risk borrowers are more attractive to lenders, and therefore
lenders have to compete to earn their business by offering them lower
rates.

This is simple, straightforward capitalism. There's nothing illogical
or unethical about it.

>It makes no sense to declare someone a deadbeat and then say "for you,
>you get a 9%, 10%, or 15% mortgage when every else is paying 5 1/2%
>or, we will start you at a low rate for a year, but after that, you
>are going to pay bonzo big bucks at twice or three times the market
>rate.

People aren't "declared" deadbeats by the credit agencies. Their own
actions earn that status for them. No one has the "right" to spend
more than they earn; it is a privilege that a person earns by proving
that s/he is a safe enough borrower that lenders will want to lend him
or her money. If a person doesn't like the interest rates being
offered, then s/he doesn't have to borrow money.

And please spare me the canard about how it's a Catch-22 because you
can't fix a bad credit rating without being able to borrow money,
because it isn't true. Even the worst deadbeats can get credit cards,
and it doesn't matter if the cards have an obscene interest rate,
because if you spend money on the card every month and then pay it off
at the end of the month without paying a penny of interest, that does
wonders for your credit rating.

--
Help stop the genocide in Darfur!
http://www.genocideintervention.net/

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