Frugal Living: 25 new messages in 13 topics

misc.consumers.frugal-living
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misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

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TOPIC: The LIFE of a TracFone?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/fa87e01204a61f4c?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 27 2008 11:34 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

joshhemming@fastmail.fm wrote:
> I started using TracFone prepaid cellular service back in the Spring
> and, although it's not the a good deal for people who use their cell
> phones a A LOT, it's working out well for me. For just over a hundred
> bucks, they gave me a reconditioned phone, one year of airtime and 400
> minutes. The phone looked brand new to me, and was sealed in factory
> packaging. I have no complaints about it. It's great for short calls
> when I'm traveling, but at 20 cents a minute I seldom use it here at
> home since I have a landline.
>
> I've noticed that some of their deals for buying more airtime &
> minutes state "Double Minutes for the life of your phone." I assume
> that means if I pay $140.00 for their deal of a year's airtime, 800
> minutes and double minutes on any card I buy in the future, and
> download the minutes into my TracFone and damned thing goes belly-up
> the next day, I've just wasted $140.00.

> My question is how long can you reasonably expect a cell
> phone to last, if you're careful not to drop it or let it get stolen?

Forever.

> How long before the rechargeable battery stops taking or holding a charge?

You should get a good year or two with the original phone manufacturer's battery.

And popular phones like Nokias use the same battery on lots
of models, so they cost peanuts to replace when they do die.
Can be a lot harder to find replacement batterys with some
other brands which have a unique battery for each model etc.

If you dont recieve calls on it much but mostly just make them, you can
turn it off when not making a call and extend the battery life tremendously.

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TOPIC: Money makes everyone healthy
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/64657211ce09f39b?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Sep 28 2008 1:44 am
From: anujbatta

Earn Money Within Minutes By Joining any Program

For more information Please Visit:

http://www.365jobs4u.com/idevaffiliate/pages/2137.php

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TOPIC: Grand Theft Bailout....
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/38337df99289052a?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Sep 28 2008 2:40 am
From: hpope@lycos.com

On Sep 27, 10:08 am, Skeptik <skep...@stop.scams> wrote:
> Bail Out the American People, Not Wall Street!
>
> An Economic Recovery Strategy for Protectionists, Dirigists,
> Mercantilists, and Populists
>
> September 24, 2008
>
> by Webster G. Tarpley
>
> Washington, DC, September 23, 2008 -The grand theft bailout now being
> rammed through Congress by Treasury Secretary Paulson, Federal Reserve
> Chairman Bernanke, and other officials of the Bush regime with the
> help of accomplices Pelosi, Majority Leader Harry Reid, and other
> parliamentarians is a monstrosity for the ages, combining every
> hideous feature of monetarism, elitism, oligarchism, and sheer
> feckless incompetence. It is to all intents and purposes a national
> suicide note of the United States of America , a contract with the
> devil that absolutely guarantees irrevocable national decline. For any
> person of goodwill there can be only one impulse at the present
> moment, and that is to stop this bailout - to block it, to sabotage
> it, to bottle it up, to load it with killer amendments, and to do
> everything legally possible to stop this insane design from going
> through.
>
> IF MCCAIN VOTES AGAINST THE BAILOUT, HE WILL WIN THE PRESIDENCY
>
> In political terms, McCain is now running well to the left of Obama on
> this issue, with a much stronger populist profile. McCain has attacked
> the outrageous greed and corruption of Wall Street. Obama does not
> dare attack Wall Street, since these are his masters. Obama, sounding
> like Milton Friedman, only attacks Washington . Obama has said that he
> will support whatever Paulson demands. That is not a surprise, since
> Paulson represents Goldman Sachs, and Obama is a wholly owned property
> of Goldman Sachs, which is his single biggest source of campaign
> contributions. Obama is a creature of Brzezinski, Soros, and
> Rockefeller, and without them he has no existence; Obama is an abject
> Wall Street puppet, an agent of finance capital. This week, both
> senators will have to decide how they vote on the odious derivatives
> bailout. Obama will surely vote in favor of it, since this is what
> Wall Street demands. If McCain votes against it, he will most probably
> propel himself into the White House on the model of Give `Em Hell
> Harry in 1948. Filthy corrupt Democrats like Schumer are already
> attacking McCain as the new Huey Long. Huey Long, the Louisiana
> populist of the 1930s, had many positive features, and we could
> certainly use a good dose of Huey Long in this country to counteract
> the elitism, oligarchism, condescension, and arrogant snobbery of
> foundation operatives like Obama. The bailout is already very
> unpopular - 72% of all voters are opposed to it - and it will become
> more and more hated when it becomes clear that it is also a failure.
> McCain's course is clear. Will he have the brains and guts to cross
> Obama's T on this vital issue?
>
> PAULSON OF GOLDMAN SACHS, WOULD-BE FINANCE DICTATOR
>
> Paulson is a ruthless and brutal eco-freak usurer who learned his
> trade at the Goldman Sachs stock-jobbing operation. He is now the
> leading member of the committee of public safety which rules in
> Washington, and which includes Gates, Rice, and Mullen. He now demands
> the astronomical sum of 700 billion dollars for the bailout of
> mortgage-backed derivatives, collateralized debt obligations, credit
> default swaps, and other poisonous derivatives. Make no mistake - this
> is not a bailout of homeowners who are threatened with foreclosure; it
> is a bailout of the lunatic house of cards which desperate bankers
> have built on these mortgages using derivatives. The entire crisis is
> not a crisis of subprime mortgages, it is a crisis of the derivatives
> bubble which was launched by Wendy Gramm of the Commodities Futures
> Trading Commission and Greenspan of the Fed with the connivance of
> Robert Rubin of Goldman Sachs and Citibank, and others in the Clinton
> administration, some 15 years ago. These derivatives now amount to a
> total worldwide notional value that can be estimated between 1
> quadrillion and two quadrillion US dollars. This sum is so large that
> it dwarfs the total value of the entire planet earth and all those who
> live here. Compared to the cancerous, bloated, and fictitious mass of
> derivatives which is at the root of this crisis, the $700 billion
> demanded by politicians, large as this may seem, is nothing but a drop
> in the bucket. And a drop in the bailout bucket is what it will be.
> The mass of world derivatives between $1 and $2 quadrillion represents
> an insatiable black hole which is capable of putting an end, not just
> to civilization, but the human life itself. The moral choice could not
> be clearer: humanity will either destroy the derivatives bubble in our
> time, or the derivatives bubble will surely destroy humanity. Those
> are the stakes in the current exercise.
>
> Paulson and Bernanke, both lawyers for the Wall Street jackals,
> lampreys, vultures and hyenas, argue that the public interest demands
> a bailout of their cronies at Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, J.P.
> Morgan Chase, Citibank, Bank of America, Wachovia, and the other large
> money center institutions. Before the American public antes up $700
> billion just for openers in the game of genocidal poker which run by
> the infernal croupiers Paulson and Bernanke, we would be very well
> advised to examine the veracity of this premise.
>
> Article continued
>
> http://incogman.wordpress.com/2008/09/24/say-no-to-the-derivatives-ba...

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TOPIC: Google adsense money techniques : top 10 secrets revealed
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/9473b0f05633d40f?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Sep 28 2008 3:09 am
From: clams_casino

madhurimaniknepal wrote:

>Google adsense money techniques : top 10 secrets revealed
>
>
>
Gotta love these get-rich quick scams posted from India.

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TOPIC: Worth Measured by Work
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/f1420188eef8656b?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Sep 28 2008 3:16 am
From: wismel@yahoo.com

On Fri, 26 Sep 2008 22:14:43 -0500, "crosstar"
<crosstar@nationalist.org> wrote:

>WORTH MEASURED BY WORK
>
>Speech at University of Mississippi
>
>Richard Barrett
>
>My friends and fellow-Americans. The mindset that you cannot keep a
>Negro from getting a mortgage is the same mindset that you cannot
>keep a Negro out of a white school. But, that mindset has yielded
>catastrophe and must be changed. The premise has been that everyone
>has the same instincts, aspirations and abilities. But, it is no more
>accurate to say that Negroes have an appreciation for private
>property, than Negroes have for the two-parent, marriage-sanctified
>home.
>
>Yet, just as the Moorish occupation produced the Reconquest and the
>Reconstruction produced the Redemption, so the Obama installation
>will produce a like Reconquest and Redemption. A shoe-shine boy,
>taking over the shop, is not some "adjustment," but an oppression to
>be overthrown. Ironically, it was the intrusion of Hillary Clinton,
>which dashed the aspiration of her own lesbian lobby, the ascension
>of John McCain, which derailed his own oil-baron cabal, and the
>installation of Barack Obama, which will bring down his own Black
>Caucus.
>
>The battle is for the oneness of the nation, against the forces of
>diversity, for the freedom of the people, against the unearned-wealth
>of the greedy, and for the survival of democracy, against privileges
>for the favored-few. Economy not based upon production is doomed.
>But, economy based upon productivity generates prosperity. Forcing
>minorities and aliens into jobs, housing, schools and offices has
>wrecked not only the economy, but education and the American
>way-of-life. To take the country back, requires turning the nation
>around.
>
>Replace "entitlements," "equal-housing," "integration" and so-called
>"civil-rights" with "Made-in-America," craftsmanship and industry and
>instead of budget-busting bailouts there will be production-backed
>prosperity. The mistake of minority-favoritism cannot be nailed out,
>but only abolished. Sloth may not be dovetailed with work, but only
>extirpated. The infusion of cash into feckless invasions or down the
>rat-holes of welfare, food-stamps and subsides has bankrupted the
>country. From now on, measuring worth by work will be our only
>salvation.
>
>Instead of exporting jobs, needed here, repatriate aliens and
>minorities, who do not fit in. Put American workers ahead of
>globalists and the hemorrhaging will cease and the rebuilding will
>commence. The three, great defining moments of the American
>experience. The resettlement of the Indians. The interment of the
>Japanese. And, the divesting of the descendants of African slaves.
>Obama is the high-point of black-power. His installation will bring
>about the backlash, the revolt, which will be the ultimate put-down
>of the last forty years of usurpation.
>
>America over Africa, Asia, India and Mexico. Ole Miss is ground-zero
>for re-segregation, reclamation and resurrection of America. The
>Russian occupation of Budapest was beaten back and so shall the
>occupation of Oxford. Freedom-fighters will out. The Obama intrusion
>is an obscenity, a profanity and an abomination, but just as with the
>Red-coats occupying Boston, but, then, evacuating, the evacuation
>shall come, for the statues still stand, the flag still waves and the
>cause of freedom marches on.
>
>To unsubscribe from Crosstarlist:
>http://www.nationalist.org/contact/unsubscribe.php
>
>To subscribe to Crosstarlist:
>http://www.nationalist.org/contact/subscribe.php
>
>To comment on Crosstarlist:
>http://www.nationalist.org/contact/comment.php
>
>To read this article on the Crosstar website:
>http://www.nationalist.org/speeches/labor/work.html
>
>Crosstarlist
>Trademark/service of nationalist.org
>Not necessarily Crosstarlist views
>Copyright 2008 The Nationalist Movement
>
America needs a total rebuild. There is no good
economic news in the future.

ted

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TOPIC: Watching The NFL Can Be Really Disgusting
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/04744c1b61cd4c14?hl=en
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== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Sep 28 2008 4:20 am
From: in2-dadark@webtv.net

From: evilninjax@yahoo.com (Goro)
You also fail to mention the in game ads, where they superimpose some ad
on the field or behind the goalposts prior to a game being played.
At one time (i think this was college football), where they were
promoting the new $20 bill and they displayed it whenever a team got
inside the 20yd line.
-goro-
-----------------------------

Not to mention the NFL gear all the players are required to wear on the
sidelines. You don't think all those guys only wear NFL gear when they
aren't on the sidelines of a game; And also we have the 'Prudential
halftime report coming up in 15 minutes' type ad. And when a ball is
kicked through a goal post you have the Allstate good hands net there to
catch it. And probably a lot more that I missed.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Sep 28 2008 4:27 am
From: in2-dadark@webtv.net

From: here@home (Way Back Jack)

Actually, ticket prices in the 1950s ranged between $5.50 and $7.50.
The best player on the team got $7,500.
Your grandfather may have mentioned him: John Unitas.
But even in the 60s, the average time was 2 hrs. 15 minutes.
---------------------

The fans who were fortunate enough to have seen the likes of Lombardi
and Unitas witnessed the best of pro ball. That was before it was so
vastly exploited. Back then you could spear a guy in the head with your
helmet and it was a good hit. Now it's like basketball was back then.
You can't horse collar, you can't rough the quarterback ...what's the
point. I'm surprised they still play in the rain. Wont they get wet?

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TOPIC: Earplugs
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/9867c3b9f1dfc4a0?hl=en
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== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Sep 28 2008 5:00 am
From: Steve IA

NoSpamForMe@LousyISP.gov wrote in
news:e7qtd4t7vq5b4g3faesou06s5r4tta4ncm@4ax.com:

> Anyone wear earplugs?
>
Yes, I was 'forced' to wear them for the last 10 years or so I worked in
a factory setting. I was opposed (stubborn)to them at first, but soon
learned they are great.

>
> One has to live with what one has and since I'm not likely to be able
> to have all live music banned, I guess I have to take measures to
> modify myself to eliminate the horrors. The logical thing seems to be
> earplugs, which if the promotional blah blah is correct apparently
> only cut out the loud noises. You should then be able to eliminate the
> music and actually hear the guy next to you. Is that correct? I'd
> settle for just eliminating the noise including the guy next to you.

For me they dampened all noise, especially machine noise. Voice sounds
where dampened, but I learned to pay attention when someone was speaking
to me. A good (evil) thing was that if my back was turned I could pretend
to not hear people that I didn't want to talk to, and keep walking.
>
> However the big thing in my view doesn't seem to be addressed
> anywhere: When I was just a little 'un my mommie told me never ever to
> put anything in my ear! If I did, not only would I go deaf, but I'd
> never get it out and satan would carry me off to hell the next day.
> (OK, I made up the bit about satan...) In checking out Google no one
> seems to be the slightest bit concerned you're stuffing some foam into
> your ear. No one worries that it could go in too far. No one is
> concerned that the plug might break off inside. No one gives advice on
> how to extract the sucked-in-too-far plug (tweezers? ice pick? propane
> torch? major surgery?).

There are several kinds/styles I'm familiar with. Some soft formed rubber
and most of varing firmness degrees of foam, usually funnel or tube
shaped to fit into the external ear canal. Through experimentation I
found the style that worked best and was most comfortable to me. It
happens to be foam plugs with a plastics string attached to keep the 2
together and allow you to remove the plugs (like when going into an
office) and drape them around your neck, thus not losing them. The
strings make extraction easier,but many folks used un-corded ones and
I've never had nor heard of removal trouble. They just don't go in far
enough that you can't remove them with your fingers. I even smoosh them
in as far as I can with my little fingers to block as much sound as I
can.

I retired 4 years ago and still wear earplugs when I'm around noisy
things: Tractors, lawn mowers, power tools, snoring wife.
Protecting your hearing is REALLY important. Once it's gone, it's gone.
Someday the kids with there BOOM-BOOM car stereos are gonna wake up and
say, "Huh?"

Steve
SouthIowa

--
I don't know half of you half as well as I'd like;
And I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.

- Bilbo Baggins

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Sep 28 2008 6:35 am
From: Al Bundy

On Sep 27, 10:29 pm, NoSpamFo...@LousyISP.gov wrote:
> Anyone wear earplugs?
>
> I was at a social event the other day, one with a live band, where not
> only could I not hear what anyone was saying but after a while each
> note of the band was like someone plunging a file into the nerve of a
> tooth without anesthesia. According to the "experts" man has the
> innate ability to distinguish between sounds and the example given is
> speech and music in circumstances similar to those I describe. Well, I
> must have been behind the door when those genes were handed out.
>
> One has to live with what one has and since I'm not likely to be able
> to have all live music banned, I guess I have to take measures to
> modify myself to eliminate the horrors. The logical thing seems to be
> earplugs, which if the promotional blah blah is correct apparently
> only cut out the loud noises. You should then be able to eliminate the
> music and actually hear the guy next to you. Is that correct? I'd
> settle for just eliminating the noise including the guy next to you.
>
> However the big thing in my view doesn't seem to be addressed
> anywhere: When I was just a little 'un my mommie told me never ever to
> put anything in my ear! If I did, not only would I go deaf, but I'd
> never get it out and satan would carry me off to hell the next day.
> (OK, I made up the bit about satan...) In checking out Google no one
> seems to be the slightest bit concerned you're stuffing some foam into
> your ear. No one worries that it could go in too far. No one is
> concerned that the plug might break off inside. No one gives advice on
> how to extract the sucked-in-too-far plug (tweezers? ice pick? propane
> torch? major surgery?).
>
> I'm missing something here. Maybe Qtips are guaranteed to bust an
> eardrum but earplugs are exempt? Could someone who uses earplugs
> address my concerns.

Earplugs made for industrial use can't get stuck in your ear. They
also have strings attached to pull the plugs out. You have a choice of
orange or yellow as a rule. They are readily available at certain
hardware stores or big box outlets. They could be in with safety
equipment or near the chain saws.

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TOPIC: CFL specs: "SBCFL" Floodlights?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/23d861342cf79cfd?hl=en
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== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Sep 28 2008 5:27 am
From: Dan Birchall

jrweiss98155remove@remove.comcast.net (JR Weiss) wrote:
> Today I replaced an outside floodlight fixture with IR and
> motion sensors. I got one that specifically said on the
> outside of the box that it was compatible with CFL bulbs.
> In the spec sheet, however, it specifies "SBCFL" bulbs of
> max 30 watts each.
>
> So, what is "SBCFL"? Do I have to look for something
> specific on the package?

Self-Ballasted Compact Fluorescent Lamp. Or to put it another way, a
CFL that has its ballast internal, rather than in the fixture.

Google is my fiend. :)

--
"The fact that we live at the bottom of a deep gravity well, on the
surface of a gas covered planet going around a nuclear fireball 90
million miles away and think this to be normal is obviously some
indication of how skewed our perspective tends to be..." - Douglas Adams

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Sep 28 2008 6:44 am
From: "John Weiss"

FWIW, I tried out a couple CFL floods that I had in the house. They
worked, but not properly.

The lights came on well before sunset, and did not turn off very often at
all. When they did turn off, the warmup time when they came back on was
excessive.

I put a pair of halogen lights in the fixture, and it's back to normal.

Oh, well, good experiment...

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TOPIC: Have you had a gas furnace installed in past 5 years? Need
feedbackplease....
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/770153a7f68a2569?hl=en
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== 1 of 7 ==
Date: Sun, Sep 28 2008 6:48 am
From: OhioGuy

Im in the business... cheapest is you go to WW Grainger and get an
> 80%- 87% effiicient furnace (those are simple and repairable)

Phil, I wasn't aware that there was a "traditional" (I.E. - simpler)
gas furnace out there that had efficiency above 80%. You're saying they
go up to 87%, yet you can still just sit it in there where the old one
was, without using the pvc & such? I've always been told that in order
to get efficiency above 80%, a new system would have a number of
differences, such as water dripline, actively vented exhaust through
pvc, and much more complex circuit boards, etc.

I was looking at a Goodman 92%, but if you're saying somebody has 85%
to 87% without the complexity, I'd like to know more. Thanks!

== 2 of 7 ==
Date: Sun, Sep 28 2008 9:17 am
From: nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu

>... I wasn't aware that there was a "traditional" (I.E. - simpler)
>gas furnace out there that had efficiency above 80%.

A $200 unvented gas space heater with a thermostat and a dehumidifier or
window AC in the room with a humidistat can condense the water vapor in
the combustion gas (11% of the output) for close to 100% efficiency.

Nick

== 3 of 7 ==
Date: Sun, Sep 28 2008 9:51 am
From: phil scott

On Sep 28, 6:48 am, OhioGuy <n...@none.net> wrote:
> Im in the business... cheapest is you go to WW Grainger and get an
> > 80%- 87% effiicient furnace (those are simple and repairable)
>
> Phil, I wasn't aware that there was a "traditional" (I.E. - simpler)
> gas furnace out there that had efficiency above 80%. You're saying they
> go up to 87%, yet you can still just sit it in there where the old one
> was, without using the pvc & such? I've always been told that in order
> to get efficiency above 80%, a new system would have a number of
> differences, such as water dripline, actively vented exhaust through
> pvc, and much more complex circuit boards, etc.
>
> I was looking at a Goodman 92%, but if you're saying somebody has 85%
> to 87% without the complexity, I'd like to know more. Thanks!

Im in the larger system business and see the smaller systems only
occasionally these days.. You may be correct
on the 80% number. it seems you know how to investigate that.
what I dont like about the high effiicency furnaces is the
cost of repairs... see if you can find a Rheem furnace, they make
some pretty simple high efficiency systems.

Phil scott

== 4 of 7 ==
Date: Sun, Sep 28 2008 10:00 am
From: phil scott

On Sep 28, 9:17 am, nicksans...@ece.villanova.edu wrote:
> >... I wasn't aware that there was a "traditional" (I.E. - simpler)
> >gas furnace out there that had efficiency above 80%.
>
> A $200 unvented gas space heater with a thermostat and a dehumidifier or
> window AC in the room with a humidistat can condense the water vapor in
> the combustion gas (11% of the output) for close to 100% efficiency.
>
> Nick

Ive seen repairs on those way over 500 dollars.. that chews into the
gas savings... my
preferance is simple sytems then limit the run time.

on other options.... the OP said he was in Washington state I believe,
they have some of the nations
lowest electric utility rates Ive seen...havent checked lately
though. If thats the case a heat pump will be
the cheapest to operate... but not cheap to install. an 80-85% gas
furnace remains one of the better options after y ou factor in the
added cost of a heat pump or a 95% furnace... depends.... the
smaller the system the more important it is go go simple.

the larger the system the better a high efficiency approach pays off.

Cheapest of all (only slightly flakey) is two chinese window or
through the wall heat pumps... about $200 each. one for the bedroom
you sleep in, the other for the rest of the house... cheapest heat
available, except for days when its below 35F or so, then their
electric heat strips kick in. in some climates thats only occasional
though. .. mattress warmers, and a few small electric spot heaters
(safe type).

For a large poorly insulated home, say over 2,000 sq ft or larger, and
the owners wanting to keep it toasty in the winter, a 95% furnace
would pay off... if it ends up being trouble free. (I recommend Rheem
for that, a US company that used to make cheap equipment, but sold to
Japanese owners a while back, now its world class...and still
reasonable...some of the simplest controls ive seen)

ymmv

Phil scott

== 5 of 7 ==
Date: Sun, Sep 28 2008 10:08 am
From: phil scott

Hey...I replied before readiing your post in detail...duh... that
200 dollar unvented condensing heater sounds like
a very good deal especially in cold climates where you can use the
water vapor in the winter to keep the humidity up.

Im assuming they have CO alarm built in or whatever, some ventilation
requirements..... those would put CO2 into the
room air though, that hasnt been a problem for the last 100 years or
so.... until the tree hugger bogus lawyer contingent made CO2 into a
'toxic' gas...and now in calif at least requres CO2 alarms (we breath
out CO2).... not to be confused with CO (carbon monoxide, a deadly
toxin... comes fom incomplete combustion, best cure is an alarm.

the 200 dollar figure sounds like it would be low though... maybe its
chinese. then Id make sure to install a CO alarm to be ultra safe.

Phil scott

== 6 of 7 ==
Date: Sun, Sep 28 2008 10:14 am
From: Vic Smith

On Sun, 28 Sep 2008 09:51:05 -0700 (PDT), phil scott
<phil@philscott.net> wrote:

>On Sep 28, 6:48 am, OhioGuy <n...@none.net> wrote:
>> Im in the business... cheapest is you go to WW Grainger and get an
>> > 80%- 87% effiicient furnace (those are simple and repairable)
>>
>> Phil, I wasn't aware that there was a "traditional" (I.E. - simpler)
>> gas furnace out there that had efficiency above 80%. You're saying they
>> go up to 87%, yet you can still just sit it in there where the old one
>> was, without using the pvc & such? I've always been told that in order
>> to get efficiency above 80%, a new system would have a number of
>> differences, such as water dripline, actively vented exhaust through
>> pvc, and much more complex circuit boards, etc.
>>
>> I was looking at a Goodman 92%, but if you're saying somebody has 85%
>> to 87% without the complexity, I'd like to know more. Thanks!
>
>
>Im in the larger system business and see the smaller systems only
>occasionally these days.. You may be correct
>on the 80% number. it seems you know how to investigate that.
>what I dont like about the high effiicency furnaces is the
>cost of repairs... see if you can find a Rheem furnace, they make
>some pretty simple high efficiency systems.
>
I've got a 10 year old Rheem Criterion II that just needed a new main
board. Cost $480 to get it fixed. It's a so-called 80%.
The electronic controls they use on these modern furnaces are geared
to "safety" as much as efficiency.
A simple thermocouple controlled gas valve and keeping a clean flue
isn't enough apparently, and they have flue induction motors, flue
pressure sensors, flame sensors, flame overflow sensors, etc.,
requiring a control board.
What I suggest is finding a good furnace repairman who works of
different models and get his advice on selecting your next furnace.
The trick is finding that guy.

--Vic

== 7 of 7 ==
Date: Sun, Sep 28 2008 11:26 am
From: phil scott

On Sep 28, 10:14 am, Vic Smith <thismailautodele...@comcast.net>
wrote:
> On Sun, 28 Sep 2008 09:51:05 -0700 (PDT), phil scott
>
>
>
>
>
> <p...@philscott.net> wrote:
> >On Sep 28, 6:48 am, OhioGuy <n...@none.net> wrote:
> >> Im in the business... cheapest is you go to WW Grainger and get an
> >> > 80%- 87% effiicient furnace (those are simple and repairable)
>
> >> Phil, I wasn't aware that there was a "traditional" (I.E. - simpler)
> >> gas furnace out there that had efficiency above 80%. You're saying they
> >> go up to 87%, yet you can still just sit it in there where the old one
> >> was, without using the pvc & such? I've always been told that in order
> >> to get efficiency above 80%, a new system would have a number of
> >> differences, such as water dripline, actively vented exhaust through
> >> pvc, and much more complex circuit boards, etc.
>
> >> I was looking at a Goodman 92%, but if you're saying somebody has 85%
> >> to 87% without the complexity, I'd like to know more. Thanks!
>
> >Im in the larger system business and see the smaller systems only
> >occasionally these days.. You may be correct
> >on the 80% number. it seems you know how to investigate that.
> >what I dont like about the high effiicency furnaces is the
> >cost of repairs... see if you can find a Rheem furnace, they make
> >some pretty simple high efficiency systems.
>
> I've got a 10 year old Rheem Criterion II that just needed a new main
> board. Cost $480 to get it fixed. It's a so-called 80%.

that was prior to the Japanese buying Rheem, in that time frame and
earlier they made low end equipment, about
the same as the rest of the builder grade equipment in the US.... its
only been Japanese owned for 5 years or so.

their latest is quite impressive...one of the 97% hot water heaters I
purchased for a job had a 6 wire control system, with
quick change sensors for fast trouble shooting.. US boilers run to a
hundred or more wire connections...some are a real
pain.

however, it behoves a person to do their own reseaarch...thiis is
just my opinion.

Phil scott
> The electronic controls they use on these modern furnaces are geared
> to "safety" as much as efficiency.
> A simple thermocouple controlled gas valve and keeping a clean flue
> isn't enough apparently, and they have flue induction motors, flue
> pressure sensors, flame sensors, flame overflow sensors, etc.,
> requiring a control board.
> What I suggest is finding a good furnace repairman who works of
> different models and get his advice on selecting your next furnace.
> The trick is finding that guy.
>
> --Vic- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Opinions on dentist conduct
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/7a04b6ef8411a621?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Sep 28 2008 7:10 am
From: tenthmed

In 30 years, I've worked with, and for, a lot of different general
dentists. It has been my experience as a patient/consumer, that dentists
do not behave in this manner. This "take-it-or-leave it" attitude I have
only seen from some physicians and only from those who are such
esteemed, technical, specialists that they do indeed not "need" you, you
need them. The same thing has happened in pharmacy. Since the chains
have virtually eliminated the independent pharmacy, they can treat their
patients/customers about any way they want. Try getting a $4 Rx filled
at Wal-Mart and you will see this attitude. Go to an almost extinct
independent and you will get a whole different level of service

As far as assembly line goes, I have never seen this in dentistry. Most
offices are either a sole-proprietor or small-group model, hence there
is usually a close relationship with the individual patient. Also, the
nature of actually "doing" dentistry requires a close one-on-one
contact. Unfortunately medicine and pharmacy have for the most part
become "assembly-line".

Sure, some dentists don't like people, but the vast majority are people
persons.

In the late '70s, there was a glut of dentists flooding the dental
business, hence EVERY patient was extremely important to the dentist and
we went to extremes to please this patient in order to survive. It is
now the 21st century but I don't get the feeling that pleasing each and
every patient has been abandoned in favor of production. There is only
so much that an individual dentist can produce in a day.

However, some patients, no matter how hard one tries, are never
satisfied. Also, this particular dentist could be the proverbial
exception to the rule. This situation could be either one, or a
combination of both.

Why don't you again ask some local friends where they get their dental
work and if they are happy with their dentists. Maybe then you will be
able to find the clinician who best meets all of your
expectations/perceptions of quality and personal professional attitude.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Why merchant bankers want the death of the middle class
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/f9dd37bd1fafc3cf?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Sep 28 2008 7:10 am
From: St Georges Day April 23rd

The middle classes are self-supporting and self respecting. Their
virture is thrift their goals are their childrens welfare, peace,
virtue and future happiness.

Merchant bankers can't make money from people like that.

Merchant bankers want to amass great wealth and servants through
lending money to governments for wars or for extravagant projects.
They want to deal, not with little individual inventers of better
mousetraps and better ideas, but with big governments and big
privileged monopoly corporations -- one big stupid profligate
government that can borrow billions at a crack. They don't want the
money the give to governments and big corporations to come from lots
of thrifty middle-class saving households -- rather they want the
giant deposits of drug dealers -- hundreds of billions delivered in a
lump which they can invest anywhere in the world they want.

Middle class people favor banking laws of single branch banks that
borrow and lend locally, where peoples savings show up in local
investments and local jobs and better local tomorrows. Merchant
bankers dispise that system because it leaves no place for them. When
merchant bankers find middle classes they must break them up --
flooding them with narcotics and alcohol and prostitution and anything
to create the vice that will generate the profligacy that will
destabilize things enought for corruption to take hold and the
irresponsible big borrowing to begin. Create poverty and then you can
start a movement to "end poverty" and get governments to spend
billions on social workers to visit the people driven to drink by the
cultural sabotage of merchant bankers who engineered the economic
failures that drive men to drink.

Merchant bankers invented and secretly bankrolled communism as a
weapon against "liberalism" (today we call it populism, because the
bankers have corrupted the true original meaning of the word liberal
(which means free and intelligent -- trusting people to do the best
for themselves individually and as a community by following their
natural tendency toward middle class living.) Communists have one goal
-- to badmouth, sabotage and overthrow middle classes wherever they
find them, to overthrow liberalsim, to overthrow populism.

All wars are stupid, unless you are a merchant banker. We have wars
because merchant bankers are in control.

The middle classes of the United States were enslaved when the Robber
Barons, profiteers of the Civil War, in allinace with the merchant
bankers of Europe (Rothschilds and Warburgs etc.) forced through the
Federal Reserve Act two days before Christmas in 1913 -- perhaps after
most Congressmen where home in bed.

The Federal Reserve was meant as a weapon against booms and busts --
those "business cycles were really created by anipulations of J.P.
Morgan, the American representative of European merchant bankers --
and it was sold as a system that in times of depression/recession
would allow more loanable reserves to be created in each bank in the
system so that local lending could increase to end the recession etc.
-- but that is not how the merchant bankers used the Federal Reserve
once it was created. Instead of injecting new loanable funds locally
in recession and preventing too much currency that would cause
inflation in each of the twelve seperate districts -- rather the Fed
within a year began manipulating the money supply exclusively through
buying and selling securities in New York City -- and what are
securities but government debt -- and they wanted more and more debt
for bigger and bigger open market operations.

Recently the Chairman of the Federal Reserve was being investigated
for using the Fed to keep the price of gold low so that Merchant
bankers could by Federal Reserve gold at far less price than the true
unmanipulated market price would have been. Too bad all the evidence
and most of the investigators died in the North Tower when a bomb went
off on the 23rd floor at the precise moment a jet liner -- flown by
remote control, and perhaps with no hijackers -- crashed into the
tower 40 stories above.

Merchant bankers plundered the resources of Somalia -- and now we are
going to war to crush the populists who are trying to restart a
nation.

The Taliban invited out the big oil companies that wanted to build a
pipeline take big shares of Afgan oil wealth and otherwise run the
country, and they also erradicated the opium of the "Norther Alliance"
drug lords who provide CHina with the prime ingredient for their
heroin -- which provides the (laundered) funds for merchant bankers to
invest in Chinese slave labor industry.

And so there is no middle class. We are all servants in a servant
economy, debt slaves on the global plantation -- lots of porn lots of
drugs lots of misery in an around-the-world slum.

Well that should be enough to open conversation. Bring it up at your
bridge or garden club.

I say out there. Any thoughts?

Dick Eastman Yakima, Washington Every man is responsible to every
other man.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Sep 28 2008 9:04 am
From: hal@nospam.org

On Sun, 28 Sep 2008 07:10:01 -0700 (PDT), St Georges Day April 23rd
<bbbbbdfgdfgdgddfg@googlemail.com> wrote:

>economy, debt slaves on the global plantation -- lots of porn lots of
>drugs lots of misery in an around-the-world slum.

thank God for porn and drugs

>
>Well that should be enough to open conversation. Bring it up at your
>bridge or garden club.
>
>I say out there. Any thoughts?
>
>Dick Eastman Yakima, Washington Every man is responsible to every
>other man.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: What cars to consider - with mileage > 40 mpg?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/57768249de21eea6?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Sep 28 2008 7:44 am
From: OhioGuy

My first car was a 1981 VW Rabbit Diesel, with manual transmission.
It only had a 50 horsepower engine, but I was spoiled as far as
efficiency - it got 40 miles per gallon on the highway. I carried an
extra small can of Diesel in the back, and could go 500 miles before
having to fill up again at a station. The car cost $900 (was about 5
years old), and I used it for 5 years before selling it.

Of course, I gauge everything I see today by that 40 MPG standard. I
see new cars getting 30 mpg highway, and think of them as fuel wasters.
Of course, many of them are not Diesel, nor are they manual
transmission. I realize that having a manual transmission adds about 3
mpg to your car's efficiency, and that having a Diesel adds roughly 30%.
(just because it has more energy per gallon of fuel)

Anyway, I'm beginning the initial stages of looking for a new to us
used vehicle. This is partly because we will likely be moving to the
country next year, and my wife will have a commute probably between 30
and 60 minutes total driving each day. We already have a van, but would
like a smaller vehicle primarily for her to commute to work and back.

I'd like it to get at least 40 mpg highway, be a Diesel, and have
manual transmission. I think the 40 mpg should be a starting point -
I'm assuming they have improved efficiencies in the past 30 years, and
that they can probably do better than that now, but we'd be happy with 40+.

Can anyone recommend a car that would make us happy?

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Sep 28 2008 8:03 am
From: Lou

OhioGuy wrote:
> My first car was a 1981 VW Rabbit Diesel, with manual transmission. It
> only had a 50 horsepower engine, but I was spoiled as far as efficiency
> - it got 40 miles per gallon on the highway. I carried an extra small
> can of Diesel in the back, and could go 500 miles before having to fill
> up again at a station. The car cost $900 (was about 5 years old), and I
> used it for 5 years before selling it.
>
> Of course, I gauge everything I see today by that 40 MPG standard. I
> see new cars getting 30 mpg highway, and think of them as fuel wasters.
> Of course, many of them are not Diesel, nor are they manual
> transmission. I realize that having a manual transmission adds about 3
> mpg to your car's efficiency, and that having a Diesel adds roughly 30%.
> (just because it has more energy per gallon of fuel)
>
> Anyway, I'm beginning the initial stages of looking for a new to us
> used vehicle. This is partly because we will likely be moving to the
> country next year, and my wife will have a commute probably between 30
> and 60 minutes total driving each day. We already have a van, but would
> like a smaller vehicle primarily for her to commute to work and back.
>
>
> I'd like it to get at least 40 mpg highway, be a Diesel, and have
> manual transmission. I think the 40 mpg should be a starting point -
> I'm assuming they have improved efficiencies in the past 30 years, and
> that they can probably do better than that now, but we'd be happy with 40+.
>
> Can anyone recommend a car that would make us happy?
Don't know of a car offhand that will meet your criteria, but around
here, diesel is substantially more expensive than gasoline thirty or
forty cents per gallon. Don't look at the just the mileage a particular
vehicle gets, consider the fuel cost to drive a mile. It may be that a
lower mpg with regular gas ends up costing less to drive.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Sep 28 2008 9:01 am
From: max

In article <gbo599$2uo$1@aioe.org>, OhioGuy <none@none.net> wrote:

> My first car was a 1981 VW Rabbit Diesel, with manual transmission.
> It only had a 50 horsepower engine, but I was spoiled as far as
> efficiency - it got 40 miles per gallon on the highway. [...]
>
> Can anyone recommend a car that would make us happy?

<http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/findacar.htm> is a good place to start.
Data goes back to 1985.

--
This signature can be appended to your outgoing mesages. Many people include in
their signatures contact information, and perhaps a joke or quotation.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Johshe 31 year old Woman in Santa Ana, California. Find Men for 1-on-1
sex, Bondage
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/f09af0e454dc4a18?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Sep 28 2008 10:14 am
From: krystinacarle@gmail.com

Johshe 31 year old Woman in Santa Ana, California. Find Men for 1-on-1
sex, Bondage, Discipline, Discreet Relationship or Group sex
http://ragdai.info/Johshe3.htm

==============================================================================

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Sunday, September 28, 2008

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