Frugal Living: 25 new messages in 9 topics

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Earplugs
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/9867c3b9f1dfc4a0?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Sep 28 2008 11:03 pm
From: "Forrest"

"Don Klipstein" <don@manx.misty.com> wrote in message
news:slrnge0mhn.7on.don@manx.misty.com...
> NoSpamForMe@LousyISP.gov wrote in
> news:e7qtd4t7vq5b4g3faesou06s5r4tta4ncm@4ax.com:
>
>> Anyone wear earplugs?
>
>> One has to live with what one has and since I'm not likely to be able
>> to have all live music banned, I guess I have to take measures to
>> modify myself to eliminate the horrors. The logical thing seems to be
>> earplugs, which if the promotional blah blah is correct apparently
>> only cut out the loud noises. You should then be able to eliminate the
>> music and actually hear the guy next to you. Is that correct? I'd
>> settle for just eliminating the noise including the guy next to you.
>
>> However the big thing in my view doesn't seem to be addressed
>> anywhere: When I was just a little 'un my mommie told me never ever to
>> put anything in my ear! If I did,
>> (in short ruin your ears and maybe die and go to hell)
>
> I have used them. I have seen them mandated in noisy areas in
> workplaces in order to comply with OSHA requirements, even at a military
> facility.
>
> Live music can get loud enough to need them. I have seen 102 dB
> averaged throughout a set at the outer edge of the dance floor in a rock
> club once!
>
> They are also used at drag race events sanctioned by NHRA and IHRA. I
> found foam earplugs hardly adequate (maybe a little inadequate) at front
> row seats near the starting line when "Top Fuel" dragsters and
> same-fuel-same-engine ("Top Fuel" or "Nitro") funny cars take off!
>
> There are also headphone-like hearing protection devices, and I got one
> from Harbor Freight. I find those adequate for loud live music and loud
> nightclubs.
> Those need to be combined with earplugs in even louder locations,
> possibly such as front row seating near starting line at drag races, and
> definitely for those who work the starting line at drag races, those who
> work near running jet engines, and possibly jackhammer operators and those
> who use power saws on 1/16 inch thick aluminum.
>
> =======================================
>
> Hearing protection is also necessary for training and target
> practice/competition use of many, possibly most firearms. However, if you
> encounter a weapon-wielding burglar/rapist/robber, worry about causing
> your ears a bit of damage should not deter you from giving the felon
> trying to victimize you a fatal case of acute lead poisoning!
> (Or from causing you to use a noisy weapon to deter a felon to retreat
> so quickly as to maybe rely on greater unfairness and greater illegality
> of shooting the perp in the back for "self-defense"/"home defense"; AND I
> think there is 24/7/365 "open season" on offending criminals that take
> longer than about half a second to flee with complete and clear and
> obvious abandmondment of further felony progress when the intended victim
> presents defensive force of any kind that has any chance of being upheld
> as legal by a jury!
> Better to shoot victimizers quickly enough to not need to explain why
> you shot them in the back!)
>
> ========================================================
Well, I too am a second amendment supporter, so I guess, this being a frugal
living group, you should have pointed out that you are such a good shot that
you would have only had to use one, maybe two rounds to do the job.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Why merchant bankers want the death of the middle class
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/f9dd37bd1fafc3cf?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 29 2008 12:11 am
From: Dave U. Random

In article <dd566901-1d92-46e1-89cd-
957de5bce556@m44g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>
St Georges Day April 23rd <bbbbbdfgdfgdgddfg@googlemail.com>
wrote:
>
> The middle classes are self-supporting and self respecting. Their
> virture is thrift their goals are their childrens welfare, peace,
> virtue and future happiness.
>
> Merchant bankers can't make money from people like that.
>
> Merchant bankers want to amass great wealth and servants through
> lending money to governments for wars or for extravagant projects.
> They want to deal, not with little individual inventers of better
> mousetraps and better ideas, but with big governments and big
> privileged monopoly corporations -- one big stupid profligate
> government that can borrow billions at a crack. They don't want the
> money the give to governments and big corporations to come from lots
> of thrifty middle-class saving households -- rather they want the
> giant deposits of drug dealers -- hundreds of billions delivered in a
> lump which they can invest anywhere in the world they want.
>
> Middle class people favor banking laws of single branch banks that
> borrow and lend locally, where peoples savings show up in local
> investments and local jobs and better local tomorrows. Merchant
> bankers dispise that system because it leaves no place for them. When
> merchant bankers find middle classes they must break them up --
> flooding them with narcotics and alcohol and prostitution and anything
> to create the vice that will generate the profligacy that will
> destabilize things enought for corruption to take hold and the
> irresponsible big borrowing to begin. Create poverty and then you can
> start a movement to "end poverty" and get governments to spend
> billions on social workers to visit the people driven to drink by the
> cultural sabotage of merchant bankers who engineered the economic
> failures that drive men to drink.
>
> Merchant bankers invented and secretly bankrolled communism as a
> weapon against "liberalism" (today we call it populism, because the
> bankers have corrupted the true original meaning of the word liberal
> (which means free and intelligent -- trusting people to do the best
> for themselves individually and as a community by following their
> natural tendency toward middle class living.) Communists have one goal
> -- to badmouth, sabotage and overthrow middle classes wherever they
> find them, to overthrow liberalsim, to overthrow populism.
>
> All wars are stupid, unless you are a merchant banker. We have wars
> because merchant bankers are in control.
>
> The middle classes of the United States were enslaved when the Robber
> Barons, profiteers of the Civil War, in allinace with the merchant
> bankers of Europe (Rothschilds and Warburgs etc.) forced through the
> Federal Reserve Act two days before Christmas in 1913 -- perhaps after
> most Congressmen where home in bed.
>
> The Federal Reserve was meant as a weapon against booms and busts --
> those "business cycles were really created by anipulations of J.P.
> Morgan, the American representative of European merchant bankers --
> and it was sold as a system that in times of depression/recession
> would allow more loanable reserves to be created in each bank in the
> system so that local lending could increase to end the recession etc.
> -- but that is not how the merchant bankers used the Federal Reserve
> once it was created. Instead of injecting new loanable funds locally
> in recession and preventing too much currency that would cause
> inflation in each of the twelve seperate districts -- rather the Fed
> within a year began manipulating the money supply exclusively through
> buying and selling securities in New York City -- and what are
> securities but government debt -- and they wanted more and more debt
> for bigger and bigger open market operations.
>
> Recently the Chairman of the Federal Reserve was being investigated
> for using the Fed to keep the price of gold low so that Merchant
> bankers could by Federal Reserve gold at far less price than the true
> unmanipulated market price would have been. Too bad all the evidence
> and most of the investigators died in the North Tower when a bomb went
> off on the 23rd floor at the precise moment a jet liner -- flown by
> remote control, and perhaps with no hijackers -- crashed into the
> tower 40 stories above.
>
> Merchant bankers plundered the resources of Somalia -- and now we are
> going to war to crush the populists who are trying to restart a
> nation.
>
> The Taliban invited out the big oil companies that wanted to build a
> pipeline take big shares of Afgan oil wealth and otherwise run the
> country, and they also erradicated the opium of the "Norther Alliance"
> drug lords who provide CHina with the prime ingredient for their
> heroin -- which provides the (laundered) funds for merchant bankers to
> invest in Chinese slave labor industry.
>
> And so there is no middle class. We are all servants in a servant
> economy, debt slaves on the global plantation -- lots of porn lots of
> drugs lots of misery in an around-the-world slum.
>
> Well that should be enough to open conversation. Bring it up at your
> bridge or garden club.
>
> I say out there. Any thoughts?
>
> Dick Eastman Yakima, Washington Every man is responsible to every
> other man.

You forgot to add the diversionary tactic from the media tools
over homosexual marriage. While America was embroiled in a
debate over faggot rights, the bankers gleefully rubbed their
hands and went to work fucking everybody.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Free internet fax services!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/dc5c6ae46dd01ef5?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 29 2008 2:22 am
From: freefreehouse@yahoo.com

List of public free fax service online. Search for free fax service.
Provides detail of each free fax service site.
http://www.geocities.com/nina1fax/

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Can a rental property be used as a Roth IRA investment?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/3e9345a6d41c09d2?hl=en
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== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 29 2008 3:24 am
From: Mark Anderson

In article none@none.net says...
> Anyone have any ideas on this? Thanks for your input.

The first place I go for any advice on complicated financial, legal, or
relationship matters is here on Usenet.

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 29 2008 3:33 am
From: terry

On Sep 29, 2:01 am, OhioGuy <n...@none.net> wrote:
> About a year ago, I found out I could invest my Roth IRA in more than
> just mutual funds. Previously, I always thought that mutual funds were
> pretty much it for IRA investments. Now I've got the $ in a couple of
> safe, dividend paying stocks.
>
> Recently, I saw a bank owned rental property for sale at about 80% of
> what I have in the IRA. It got me wondering - could a person possibly
> use the money in an IRA to buy a rental property, then use the rental
> income to fund their IRA?
>
> I'm not sure how such a thing would work, or if it is even possible.
> Of course, last year I thought you couldn't invest an IRA directly
> into favorite stocks, and I was wrong there. I know I could easily take
> the $ and invest in a REIT stock, which would be similar to what I'm
> talking about. However, it would also likely be much less profitable,
> and I would have little or no control over anything that goes on with
> the investment.
>
> My understanding is that there is a huge fine for early withdrawal of
> IRA funds. Not really sure how I could avoid that, since I'd need to
> withdraw the funds in there to buy the place.
>
> Anyone have any ideas on this? Thanks for your input.

Maybe in the USA you can. Because in some other countries, Canada for
example, we can invest our RRSPs (Registered Retirement Savings Plans)
into just about whatever we like. Which includes mutual funds, cash
bonds, stocks etc. etc. but doubt it it includes holding a direct
title to some property?

Owning shares in a real estate company, maybe your own company, might
work but you would have to set up that company and there is/are costs/
expense/taxes to do so!

Like everything you'll have to do your homework and educate yourself
in all these matters, but you should be congratulated for thinking
about this and starting to investigate.

Strongly suggest you talk to an investment advisor who has a good
'tax' background regarding IRAs.

A personal comment is; 'Is it wise to sink so big a portion one such
an important investment into one item'? Only you can consider the risk/
s and decide, depending the amount, your age group and whether you
would have other pension income etc. etc.!

Best of luck.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 29 2008 3:33 am
From: Vic Smith

On Mon, 29 Sep 2008 05:24:58 -0500, Mark Anderson
<mea@nospambrandylion.com> wrote:

>In article none@none.net says...
>> Anyone have any ideas on this? Thanks for your input.
>
>The first place I go for any advice on complicated financial, legal, or
>relationship matters is here on Usenet.

Me too. But to be safe I get a second opinion from my parrot.
Trust but verify.

--Vic

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Have you had a gas furnace installed in past 5 years? Need
feedbackplease....
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/770153a7f68a2569?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 29 2008 4:16 am
From: Vic Smith

On Sun, 28 Sep 2008 11:26:22 -0700 (PDT), phil scott
<phil@philscott.net> wrote:

>On Sep 28, 10:14 am, Vic Smith <thismailautodele...@comcast.net>
>wrote:
>> On Sun, 28 Sep 2008 09:51:05 -0700 (PDT), phil scott
>>

>> I've got a 10 year old Rheem Criterion II that just needed a new main
>> board. Cost $480 to get it fixed. It's a so-called 80%.
>
>that was prior to the Japanese buying Rheem, in that time frame and
>earlier they made low end equipment, about
>the same as the rest of the builder grade equipment in the US.... its
>only been Japanese owned for 5 years or so.
>
>their latest is quite impressive...one of the 97% hot water heaters I
>purchased for a job had a 6 wire control system, with
>quick change sensors for fast trouble shooting.. US boilers run to a
>hundred or more wire connections...some are a real
>pain.
>
>however, it behoves a person to do their own reseaarch...thiis is
>just my opinion.
>
One problem is what you mentioned - the models change.
The guy that repaired mine didn't care for Rheem and likes Weil.
But he did comment that he was surprised at the quality of my
Rheem's burner assembly. Maybe he was being nice.
I had done a few minor repairs on the thing, but this problem was off
the troubleshooting flow chart on the case, so I called a pro.
I was worried about getting somebody good, but when I talked to this
guy on the phone after finding him on the net, I felt better.
I told him I wanted him to send somebody who knew Rheem White-Rodgers
controls, and he sharply said, "That's me - *I'm* coming."
Still, I was shocked and laughed out loud when he had the thing
working in about 2 minutes. Me and my son had spent a couple hours
farting around with it to no avail. Not to mention the time I spent
looking for info on the net.
He used both hands to flex the main board, freeing a stuck relay.
Didn't push me to buy a new board but said the relay could stick
again, since the contacts were probably burnt. Don't want that
when the temps are below zero, so I told him to replace it.
It's one of the more expensive home furnace boards, costing @$350.
He could have just left with his $85 for the service call.
This incident reminded me of the joke about paying the mechanic a
large sum to tap something with a hammer to get it working. You're
not paying for the tap, you're paying for "where" to tap.
This circuit board had what seemed like a hundred wires coming off it
and as he replaced it he muttered once he never saw so many damn
neutrals in his life. He also did an adjustment to the squirrel cage
eliminating a noise it was making. I'll call him again if I have
further furnace problems, or need other work. He knows a lot good
guys in the trades. Got one coming today to waterproof a couple of
foundation leaks in the basement.
Anyway, the trick is always finding the right guy/advice. Any time I
get something done right the first time for a decent price I feel
lucky.

--Vic

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 29 2008 9:10 am
From: "Rod Speed"

Vic Smith <thismailautodeleted@comcast.net> wrote:
> On Sun, 28 Sep 2008 11:26:22 -0700 (PDT), phil scott
> <phil@philscott.net> wrote:
>
>> On Sep 28, 10:14 am, Vic Smith <thismailautodele...@comcast.net>
>> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 28 Sep 2008 09:51:05 -0700 (PDT), phil scott
>>>
>
>>> I've got a 10 year old Rheem Criterion II that just needed a new
>>> main board. Cost $480 to get it fixed. It's a so-called 80%.
>>
>> that was prior to the Japanese buying Rheem, in that time frame and
>> earlier they made low end equipment, about
>> the same as the rest of the builder grade equipment in the US.... its
>> only been Japanese owned for 5 years or so.
>>
>> their latest is quite impressive...one of the 97% hot water heaters I
>> purchased for a job had a 6 wire control system, with
>> quick change sensors for fast trouble shooting.. US boilers run to a
>> hundred or more wire connections...some are a real
>> pain.
>>
>> however, it behoves a person to do their own reseaarch...thiis is
>> just my opinion.
>>
> One problem is what you mentioned - the models change.
> The guy that repaired mine didn't care for Rheem and likes Weil.
> But he did comment that he was surprised at the quality of my
> Rheem's burner assembly. Maybe he was being nice.
> I had done a few minor repairs on the thing, but this problem was off
> the troubleshooting flow chart on the case, so I called a pro.
> I was worried about getting somebody good, but when I talked to this
> guy on the phone after finding him on the net, I felt better.
> I told him I wanted him to send somebody who knew Rheem White-Rodgers
> controls, and he sharply said, "That's me - *I'm* coming."
> Still, I was shocked and laughed out loud when he had the thing
> working in about 2 minutes. Me and my son had spent a couple hours
> farting around with it to no avail. Not to mention the time I spent
> looking for info on the net.
> He used both hands to flex the main board, freeing a stuck relay.
> Didn't push me to buy a new board but said the relay could stick
> again, since the contacts were probably burnt. Don't want that
> when the temps are below zero, so I told him to replace it.
> It's one of the more expensive home furnace boards, costing @$350.
> He could have just left with his $85 for the service call.
> This incident reminded me of the joke about paying the mechanic a
> large sum to tap something with a hammer to get it working. You're
> not paying for the tap, you're paying for "where" to tap.
> This circuit board had what seemed like a hundred wires coming off it
> and as he replaced it he muttered once he never saw so many damn
> neutrals in his life. He also did an adjustment to the squirrel cage
> eliminating a noise it was making. I'll call him again if I have
> further furnace problems, or need other work. He knows a lot good
> guys in the trades. Got one coming today to waterproof a couple of
> foundation leaks in the basement.

> Anyway, the trick is always finding the right guy/advice. Any time I
> get something done right the first time for a decent price I feel lucky.

Thats the main thing that the net still hasnt fixed, providing decent reliable access
to people like that, or even to the info thats in the head of someone like that either.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Math on the bailout doesn't add up...
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/3213ff522966e10e?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 13 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 29 2008 4:35 am
From: Gunner Asch

On Sun, 28 Sep 2008 22:29:32 -0700, "nospam" <a@b.c> wrote:

>Not a single word from Bush or anyone in his administration, apologizing
>for this economic catastrophe, or even admitting it's a direct result of their
>relentless pursuit of deregulation.
>
>These people literally have no conscience. Amoral beasts.
>

Actually..the records show that they tried to stiffen up the
regulations both in 2003 and in 2005

In both cases the Democrats blocked them totally.

Seems the monsters in the DNC want a welfare state where everyone is
under the control of the government

"Obama, raises taxes and kills babies. Sarah Palin - raises babies
and kills taxes." Pyotr Flipivich

== 2 of 13 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 29 2008 4:42 am
From: Jim

nospam wrote:
>
> Not a single word from Bush or anyone in his administration, apologizing
> for this economic catastrophe, or even admitting it's a direct result of their
> relentless pursuit of deregulation.

so then, you'd hope for how the most evil thing on
earth would protect you from the other evils of this earth.

>
> These people literally have no conscience. Amoral beasts.

evil works with evil to bring about more evil. the destruction
is the result of how evil can for the short term be made to appear
appealing, desirable and good to behold.

hey, you want a bite of this fruit, it will give you knowledge. <g>

== 3 of 13 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 29 2008 4:56 am
From: Jim

Gunner Asch wrote:

> nospam wrote:
>
> >Not a single word from Bush or anyone in his administration, apologizing
> >for this economic catastrophe, or even admitting it's a direct result of their
> >relentless pursuit of deregulation.
> >
> >These people literally have no conscience. Amoral beasts.
> >
>
> Actually..the records show that they tried to stiffen up the
> regulations both in 2003 and in 2005
>
> In both cases the Democrats blocked them totally.
>
> Seems the monsters in the DNC want a welfare state where everyone is
> under the control of the government

exactly how does that make them different from other governments of men?

>
> "Obama, raises taxes and kills babies. Sarah Palin - raises babies
> and kills taxes." Pyotr Flipivich

== 4 of 13 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 29 2008 4:34 am
From: Ann

On Mon, 29 Sep 2008 04:35:32 -0700, Gunner Asch wrote:

> On Sun, 28 Sep 2008 22:29:32 -0700, "nospam" <a@b.c> wrote:
>
>>Not a single word from Bush or anyone in his administration, apologizing
>>for this economic catastrophe, or even admitting it's a direct result of
>>their relentless pursuit of deregulation.
>>
>>These people literally have no conscience. Amoral beasts.
>>
>>
> Actually..the records show that they tried to stiffen up the regulations
> both in 2003 and in 2005

The records show that the Republicans had control of both the Senate and
House through the end of 2004. Bush made the request that Congress give
Treasury oversight in 2003.

> In both cases the Democrats blocked them totally.
>
> Seems the monsters in the DNC want a welfare state where everyone is
> under the control of the government
>
>
> "Obama, raises taxes and kills babies. Sarah Palin - raises babies and
> kills taxes." Pyotr Flipivich

== 5 of 13 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 29 2008 6:07 am
From: Elmo

Jitney wrote:
> It is hard to find statistics on the mortgage crisis, so I'm making an
> estimate. There are about 100 million households in the USA, assuming
> 10% are in default or foreclosure, which I think is a high estimate,
> subtracting rentals from the 100 million (if you can refute me from a
> credible authority, I would love to be corrected). Ten million divided
> into 700 billion works out to $700,000 per distressed property, which
> should on the average buy out each property twice. What is happening
> to the rest? I think this is a massive raid on the US treasury, with a
> threat of a Great Depression if we don't pay up, and that isn't even
> counting AIG, Countrywide, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, and Bear Stearns.
> Wall Street is stealing more than the Huns that raided the Roman
> Empire, with similar results. And this is not the end. Congress forked
> over 25 Billion to the automakers, the airlines are next, and who
> then? Ben and Jerries? We are looking at a new Dark Ages.

You're focusing too narrowly. The problem isn't the mortgages alone,
it's all of the "derivatives" which have been used to "create value"
and "manage risk". Over half of the GDP of the USA comes from counting
each link in the chain as Tom sells something to Dick who turns around
and sells it to Harry who breaks it into pieces and sells shares of it
to Louise and Louise buys a credit default swap from Thelma. It's a
lot like the Dutch tulip mania except that there is precious little
of actual, material value underneath it. And of course almost all of
it has been done with borrowed money -- sometimes as little as 1% of the
"value" being provided in the form of recognizable assets.

Even those assets are suspect since so much of the concept of "value"
for equity shares has come to be estimated based on declared earnings
which are all too easy to manipulate as the current quarter comes to
a close and the bonus calculations and stock options start to come
out.

--
More fundamentally, however, policymakers must acknowledge
and begin to address the fact that the federal budget is
itself suffering from the same over-reliance on debt and
lack of transparency that doomed the institutions they are
now rushing to rescue. If they fail to do so, the eventual
and inevitable consequences for the economy are no less stark.

== 6 of 13 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 29 2008 7:43 am
From: Jim

Elmo wrote:
>
> Jitney wrote:
> > It is hard to find statistics on the mortgage crisis, so I'm making an
> > estimate. There are about 100 million households in the USA, assuming
> > 10% are in default or foreclosure, which I think is a high estimate,
> > subtracting rentals from the 100 million (if you can refute me from a
> > credible authority, I would love to be corrected). Ten million divided
> > into 700 billion works out to $700,000 per distressed property, which
> > should on the average buy out each property twice. What is happening
> > to the rest? I think this is a massive raid on the US treasury, with a
> > threat of a Great Depression if we don't pay up, and that isn't even
> > counting AIG, Countrywide, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, and Bear Stearns.
> > Wall Street is stealing more than the Huns that raided the Roman
> > Empire, with similar results. And this is not the end. Congress forked
> > over 25 Billion to the automakers, the airlines are next, and who
> > then? Ben and Jerries? We are looking at a new Dark Ages.
>
> You're focusing too narrowly. The problem isn't the mortgages alone,
> it's all of the "derivatives" which have been used to "create value"
> and "manage risk". Over half of the GDP of the USA comes from counting
> each link in the chain as Tom sells something to Dick who turns around
> and sells it to Harry who breaks it into pieces and sells shares of it
> to Louise and Louise buys a credit default swap from Thelma. It's a
> lot like the Dutch tulip mania except that there is precious little
> of actual, material value underneath it. And of course almost all of
> it has been done with borrowed money -- sometimes as little as 1% of the
> "value" being provided in the form of recognizable assets.
>
> Even those assets are suspect since so much of the concept of "value"
> for equity shares has come to be estimated based on declared earnings
> which are all too easy to manipulate as the current quarter comes to
> a close and the bonus calculations and stock options start to come
> out.

well put Elmo. sadly though most if not the vast majority
have 0% understanding for what you just explained.

the real and tangible GDP relates to manufacturing. the country
with the in country manufacturing has the wealth. the government
of a country with manufacturing has a real and taxable infrastructure
allowing that government of said country to collect real and usable
revenues.

if the workers had simply learned their place in the overall scheme
of things and not attempted to exploit those with investment capital
then america just might still be the number one country with the most
jobs in manufacturing of real and durable goods.

but some worker bees got together and attempted to reverse the roles
of who exploits who. funny how those with investment capital smiled
and waved bye, then simply moved on to a new location were hungry
people [worker bees] were eager to be employed / [exploited].

== 7 of 13 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 29 2008 8:07 am
From: Elmo

Jim wrote:
> Elmo wrote:
>> Jitney wrote:
>>> It is hard to find statistics on the mortgage crisis, so I'm making an
>>> estimate. There are about 100 million households in the USA, assuming
>>> 10% are in default or foreclosure, which I think is a high estimate,
>>> subtracting rentals from the 100 million (if you can refute me from a
>>> credible authority, I would love to be corrected). Ten million divided
>>> into 700 billion works out to $700,000 per distressed property, which
>>> should on the average buy out each property twice. What is happening
>>> to the rest? I think this is a massive raid on the US treasury, with a
>>> threat of a Great Depression if we don't pay up, and that isn't even
>>> counting AIG, Countrywide, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, and Bear Stearns.
>>> Wall Street is stealing more than the Huns that raided the Roman
>>> Empire, with similar results. And this is not the end. Congress forked
>>> over 25 Billion to the automakers, the airlines are next, and who
>>> then? Ben and Jerries? We are looking at a new Dark Ages.
>> You're focusing too narrowly. The problem isn't the mortgages alone,
>> it's all of the "derivatives" which have been used to "create value"
>> and "manage risk". Over half of the GDP of the USA comes from counting
>> each link in the chain as Tom sells something to Dick who turns around
>> and sells it to Harry who breaks it into pieces and sells shares of it
>> to Louise and Louise buys a credit default swap from Thelma. It's a
>> lot like the Dutch tulip mania except that there is precious little
>> of actual, material value underneath it. And of course almost all of
>> it has been done with borrowed money -- sometimes as little as 1% of the
>> "value" being provided in the form of recognizable assets.
>>
>> Even those assets are suspect since so much of the concept of "value"
>> for equity shares has come to be estimated based on declared earnings
>> which are all too easy to manipulate as the current quarter comes to
>> a close and the bonus calculations and stock options start to come
>> out.
>
> well put Elmo. sadly though most if not the vast majority
> have 0% understanding for what you just explained.
>
> the real and tangible GDP relates to manufacturing. the country
> with the in country manufacturing has the wealth. the government
> of a country with manufacturing has a real and taxable infrastructure
> allowing that government of said country to collect real and usable
> revenues.
>
> if the workers had simply learned their place in the overall scheme
> of things and not attempted to exploit those with investment capital
> then america just might still be the number one country with the most
> jobs in manufacturing of real and durable goods.
>

Their _place_? Y'all need to study the history of anthracite mining
in Pennsylvania. That song "16 Tons" wasn't made up because the workers
were getting fair treatment by the mine owners.

> but some worker bees got together and attempted to reverse the roles
> of who exploits who. funny how those with investment capital smiled
> and waved bye, then simply moved on to a new location were hungry
> people [worker bees] were eager to be employed / [exploited].

The corporations who did that would have had a much harder time if they
hadn't bought laws that gave them ridiculous tax breaks for doing so.

--
No patriarchal institution has acquired greater legal
entitlement than has the giant corporation. When We
the People try to eliminate the corporation's power
over us, we are told we're taking away their "rights."
And indeed, legislative and judicial establishments
have given corporations a legal claim to such authority.

== 8 of 13 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 29 2008 8:32 am
From: "Rod Speed"

Elmo <ElmoHateSpam@noSpam4U.org> wrote:
> Jitney wrote:
>> It is hard to find statistics on the mortgage crisis, so I'm making
>> an estimate. There are about 100 million households in the USA,
>> assuming 10% are in default or foreclosure, which I think is a high
>> estimate, subtracting rentals from the 100 million (if you can
>> refute me from a credible authority, I would love to be corrected).
>> Ten million divided into 700 billion works out to $700,000 per
>> distressed property, which should on the average buy out each
>> property twice. What is happening to the rest? I think this is a
>> massive raid on the US treasury, with a threat of a Great Depression
>> if we don't pay up, and that isn't even counting AIG, Countrywide,
>> Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, and Bear Stearns. Wall Street is stealing
>> more than the Huns that raided the Roman Empire, with similar
>> results. And this is not the end. Congress forked over 25 Billion to
>> the automakers, the airlines are next, and who then? Ben and
>> Jerries? We are looking at a new Dark Ages.
>
>
> You're focusing too narrowly. The problem isn't the mortgages alone,
> it's all of the "derivatives" which have been used to "create value"
> and "manage risk". Over half of the GDP of the USA comes from
> counting each link in the chain as Tom sells something to Dick who
> turns around and sells it to Harry who breaks it into pieces and
> sells shares of it to Louise and Louise buys a credit default swap
> from Thelma. It's a lot like the Dutch tulip mania except that there
> is precious little of actual, material value underneath it.

Oh bullshit. You cant ignore the massive building boom.

> And of course almost all of it has been done with borrowed money

Thats been true of almost all building for the best part of a century now.

That didnt produce the sub prime fiasco up till now.

> -- sometimes as little as 1% of the "value" being provided in the form of recognizable assets.

That is a bare faced pig ignorant lie with the building boom.

> Even those assets are suspect since so much of the concept of "value"
> for equity shares has come to be estimated based on declared earnings
> which are all too easy to manipulate as the current quarter comes to
> a close and the bonus calculations and stock options start to come out.

Pity about the building boom that happened after the .com fiasco.

== 9 of 13 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 29 2008 8:35 am
From: "Gil Faver"

> Pity about the building boom that happened after the .com fiasco.

Question: will the next two fiascos be credit card debt and alternative
energy or alternative energy and credit card debt (i.e. which will implode
first)?

== 10 of 13 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 29 2008 8:37 am
From: "Rod Speed"

Jim <jim@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> Elmo wrote:
>>
>> Jitney wrote:
>>> It is hard to find statistics on the mortgage crisis, so I'm making
>>> an estimate. There are about 100 million households in the USA,
>>> assuming 10% are in default or foreclosure, which I think is a high
>>> estimate, subtracting rentals from the 100 million (if you can
>>> refute me from a credible authority, I would love to be corrected).
>>> Ten million divided into 700 billion works out to $700,000 per
>>> distressed property, which should on the average buy out each
>>> property twice. What is happening to the rest? I think this is a
>>> massive raid on the US treasury, with a threat of a Great
>>> Depression if we don't pay up, and that isn't even counting AIG,
>>> Countrywide, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, and Bear Stearns. Wall Street
>>> is stealing more than the Huns that raided the Roman Empire, with
>>> similar results. And this is not the end. Congress forked over 25
>>> Billion to the automakers, the airlines are next, and who then? Ben
>>> and Jerries? We are looking at a new Dark Ages.
>>
>> You're focusing too narrowly. The problem isn't the mortgages alone,
>> it's all of the "derivatives" which have been used to "create value"
>> and "manage risk". Over half of the GDP of the USA comes from
>> counting each link in the chain as Tom sells something to Dick who
>> turns around and sells it to Harry who breaks it into pieces and
>> sells shares of it to Louise and Louise buys a credit default swap
>> from Thelma. It's a lot like the Dutch tulip mania except that
>> there is precious little
>> of actual, material value underneath it. And of course almost all
>> of it has been done with borrowed money -- sometimes as little as 1%
>> of the "value" being provided in the form of recognizable assets.
>>
>> Even those assets are suspect since so much of the concept of "value"
>> for equity shares has come to be estimated based on declared earnings
>> which are all too easy to manipulate as the current quarter comes to
>> a close and the bonus calculations and stock options start to come
>> out.

> well put Elmo. sadly though most if not the vast majority
> have 0% understanding for what you just explained.

> the real and tangible GDP relates to manufacturing.

Wrong with any modern first and second world economy.

They have always been about a hell of a lot more than JUST manufacturing.

> the country with the in country manufacturing has the wealth.

We have gone a LONG way past that for a hell of a long time now.

> the government of a country with manufacturing has a real and taxable infrastructure
> allowing that government of said country to collect real and usable revenues.

And that in spades.

> if the workers had simply learned their place in the overall scheme
> of things and not attempted to exploit those with investment capital
> then america just might still be the number one country with the
> most jobs in manufacturing of real and durable goods.

That was never going to be possible once living standards
in the US had greatly exceeded those in places like China.

The only thing that stopped low end manufacture moving to China
much earlier was their stupid experiment with communism.

And that was absolutely inevitable once the living standards
of 'workers' in the US had improved so dramatically.

== 11 of 13 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 29 2008 8:38 am
From: "Rod Speed"

Elmo <ElmoHateSpam@noSpam4U.org> wrote:
> Jim wrote:
>> Elmo wrote:
>>> Jitney wrote:
>>>> It is hard to find statistics on the mortgage crisis, so I'm
>>>> making an estimate. There are about 100 million households in the
>>>> USA, assuming 10% are in default or foreclosure, which I think is
>>>> a high estimate, subtracting rentals from the 100 million (if you
>>>> can refute me from a credible authority, I would love to be
>>>> corrected). Ten million divided into 700 billion works out to
>>>> $700,000 per distressed property, which should on the average buy
>>>> out each property twice. What is happening to the rest? I think
>>>> this is a massive raid on the US treasury, with a threat of a
>>>> Great Depression if we don't pay up, and that isn't even counting
>>>> AIG, Countrywide, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, and Bear Stearns. Wall
>>>> Street is stealing more than the Huns that raided the Roman
>>>> Empire, with similar results. And this is not the end. Congress
>>>> forked over 25 Billion to the automakers, the airlines are next,
>>>> and who then? Ben and Jerries? We are looking at a new Dark Ages.
>>> You're focusing too narrowly. The problem isn't the mortgages
>>> alone, it's all of the "derivatives" which have been used to
>>> "create value" and "manage risk". Over half of the GDP of the USA
>>> comes from counting each link in the chain as Tom sells something
>>> to Dick who turns around and sells it to Harry who breaks it into
>>> pieces and sells shares of it to Louise and Louise buys a credit
>>> default swap from Thelma. It's a lot like the Dutch tulip mania
>>> except that there is precious little of actual, material value underneath it. And of course almost all
>>> of it has been done with borrowed money -- sometimes as little as
>>> 1% of the "value" being provided in the form of recognizable assets.
>>>
>>> Even those assets are suspect since so much of the concept of
>>> "value" for equity shares has come to be estimated based on
>>> declared earnings which are all too easy to manipulate as the
>>> current quarter comes to a close and the bonus calculations and stock options start to come
>>> out.
>>
>> well put Elmo. sadly though most if not the vast majority
>> have 0% understanding for what you just explained.
>>
>> the real and tangible GDP relates to manufacturing. the country
>> with the in country manufacturing has the wealth. the government
>> of a country with manufacturing has a real and taxable infrastructure
>> allowing that government of said country to collect real and usable
>> revenues.
>>
>> if the workers had simply learned their place in the overall scheme
>> of things and not attempted to exploit those with investment capital
>> then america just might still be the number one country with the most
>> jobs in manufacturing of real and durable goods.
>>
>
> Their _place_? Y'all need to study the history of anthracite mining
> in Pennsylvania. That song "16 Tons" wasn't made up because the
> workers were getting fair treatment by the mine owners.
>
>
>> but some worker bees got together and attempted to reverse the roles
>> of who exploits who. funny how those with investment capital smiled
>> and waved bye, then simply moved on to a new location were hungry
>> people [worker bees] were eager to be employed / [exploited].
>
> The corporations who did that would have had a much harder time if
> they hadn't bought laws that gave them ridiculous tax breaks for
> doing so.

More bullshit. They had nothing to do with what happened, and the proof
of that is that every other modern first and second world country that didnt
have those tax breaks also saw their manufacturing exported to China.

== 12 of 13 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 29 2008 9:02 am
From: "rlbell.nsuid@gmail.com"

On Sep 29, 8:43 am, Jim <j...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> Elmo wrote:
>
> > Jitney wrote:
> > > It is hard to find statistics on the mortgage crisis, so I'm making an
> > > estimate. There are about 100 million households in the USA, assuming
> > > 10% are in default or foreclosure, which I think is a high estimate,
> > > subtracting rentals from the 100 million (if you can refute me from a
> > > credible authority, I would love to be corrected). Ten million divided
> > > into 700 billion works out to $700,000 per distressed property, which
> > > should on the average buy out each property twice. What is happening
> > > to the rest? I think this is a massive raid on the US treasury, with a
> > > threat of a Great Depression if we don't pay up, and that isn't even
> > > counting AIG, Countrywide, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, and Bear Stearns.
> > > Wall Street is stealing more than the Huns that raided the Roman
> > > Empire, with similar results. And this is not the end. Congress forked
> > > over 25 Billion to the automakers, the airlines are next, and who
> > > then? Ben and Jerries? We are looking at a new Dark Ages.
>
> > You're focusing too narrowly. The problem isn't the mortgages alone,
> > it's all of the "derivatives" which have been used to "create value"
> > and "manage risk". Over half of the GDP of the USA comes from counting
> > each link in the chain as Tom sells something to Dick who turns around
> > and sells it to Harry who breaks it into pieces and sells shares of it
> > to Louise and Louise buys a credit default swap from Thelma. It's a
> > lot like the Dutch tulip mania except that there is precious little
> > of actual, material value underneath it. And of course almost all of
> > it has been done with borrowed money -- sometimes as little as 1% of the
> > "value" being provided in the form of recognizable assets.
>
> > Even those assets are suspect since so much of the concept of "value"
> > for equity shares has come to be estimated based on declared earnings
> > which are all too easy to manipulate as the current quarter comes to
> > a close and the bonus calculations and stock options start to come
> > out.
>
> well put Elmo. sadly though most if not the vast majority
> have 0% understanding for what you just explained.
>
> the real and tangible GDP relates to manufacturing. the country
> with the in country manufacturing has the wealth. the government
> of a country with manufacturing has a real and taxable infrastructure
> allowing that government of said country to collect real and usable
> revenues.

No. Sadly, real and tangible wealth does not exist. Manufacturing
constitutes real and tangible wealth only when there are markets for
those manufactured goods. Even gold does not constitute real and
tangible wealth, in the absence of a minimally functional economy.
Cattle do represent tangible wealth (everybody has to eat), but we
have progressed beyond merely being eaters.

Wealth provides three things Power, Security, Comfort. The US has an
excess of power, a sufficiency security, and easily achievable
comfort. Americans have not been satisfied with mere comfort and
graduated to excessive, conspicuous consumption, even to the point of
living well beyond their means.

A real problem is that as long as easy credit is the rule, a truly
wealthy country is indistinguishable from a heavily indebted country,
as the best indicator of how wealthy a country is is how much money is
flowing. The more money that circulates, or the faster that money
circulates, the wealthier a nation is.
>
> if the workers had simply learned their place in the overall scheme
> of things and not attempted to exploit those with investment capital
> then america just might still be the number one country with the most
> jobs in manufacturing of real and durable goods.

Wrong. America's wealth correlates with what Henry Ford was forced to
do to keep skilled and trained machinists working on his assembly
line-- pay his workers enough money to buy his cars, which they did.
By selling hundreds, instead of tens, he was able to capitalise on
economies of scale and make cars inexpensive enough for everyone to
buy his cars, so he could sell them by the tens of thousands.

The proper place of a worker in a wealthy country is as a consumer. A
worker without enough money to consume more than food is wasted
potential wealth of the nation. The overreaching of the unions that
you seem to be railing against is not that the workers do not know
their place, but that the workers need a healthy, competitive
employer, before they can demand improved wages, but many unions
demanded continually improving benefits
>
> but some worker bees got together and attempted to reverse the roles
> of who exploits who. funny how those with investment capital smiled
> and waved bye, then simply moved on to a new location were hungry
> people [worker bees] were eager to be employed / [exploited].

It would have happened, anyways. The cost of living in those
countries was lower than in the US, so a worker needed less money to
be just as happy as an american. Call center people were never
unionised, but their jobs flew away to India as soon as telephone
costs tipped the balance.

== 13 of 13 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 29 2008 9:11 am
From: "Rod Speed"

Gil Faver <rowdy'sboss@xxyz.com> wrote:

>> Pity about the building boom that happened after the .com fiasco.

> Question: will the next two fiascos be credit card debt and alternative energy or alternative energy and credit card
> debt (i.e. which will implode first)?

Neither, essentially because neither are setup so that a fiasco is possible.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: What cars to consider - with mileage > 40 mpg?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/57768249de21eea6?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 29 2008 5:06 am
From: curly'q

OhioGuy wrote:
> My first car was a 1981 VW Rabbit Diesel, with manual transmission. It
> only had a 50 horsepower engine, but I was spoiled as far as efficiency
> - it got 40 miles per gallon on the highway. I carried an extra small
> can of Diesel in the back, and could go 500 miles before having to fill
> up again at a station. The car cost $900 (was about 5 years old), and I
> used it for 5 years before selling it.
>
> Of course, I gauge everything I see today by that 40 MPG standard. I
> see new cars getting 30 mpg highway, and think of them as fuel wasters.
> Of course, many of them are not Diesel, nor are they manual
> transmission. I realize that having a manual transmission adds about 3
> mpg to your car's efficiency, and that having a Diesel adds roughly 30%.
> (just because it has more energy per gallon of fuel)
>
> Anyway, I'm beginning the initial stages of looking for a new to us
> used vehicle. This is partly because we will likely be moving to the
> country next year, and my wife will have a commute probably between 30
> and 60 minutes total driving each day. We already have a van, but would
> like a smaller vehicle primarily for her to commute to work and back.
>
>
> I'd like it to get at least 40 mpg highway, be a Diesel, and have
> manual transmission. I think the 40 mpg should be a starting point -
> I'm assuming they have improved efficiencies in the past 30 years, and
> that they can probably do better than that now, but we'd be happy with 40+.
>
> Can anyone recommend a car that would make us happy?

Yes, but first you have to move to Europe or Asia :-)

Find a good Ford Festiva/Aspire with a stick for around 1000-1500 and
invest what ever it takes to get it in prime running condition. You'll
have tough little reliable car that consistently get over 40 mpg for a
fraction of the price of a late model hybrid or diesel.

Curly

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 29 2008 7:37 am
From: James

On Sep 29, 8:06 am, curly'q <ma...@gug.com> wrote:
> OhioGuy wrote:
> > My first car was a 1981 VW Rabbit Diesel, with manual transmission. It
> > only had a 50 horsepower engine, but I was spoiled as far as efficiency
> > - it got 40 miles per gallon on the highway. I carried an extra small
> > can of Diesel in the back, and could go 500 miles before having to fill
> > up again at a station. The car cost $900 (was about 5 years old), and I
> > used it for 5 years before selling it.
>
> > Of course, I gauge everything I see today by that 40 MPG standard. I
> > see new cars getting 30 mpg highway, and think of them as fuel wasters.
> > Of course, many of them are not Diesel, nor are they manual
> > transmission. I realize that having a manual transmission adds about 3
> > mpg to your car's efficiency, and that having a Diesel adds roughly 30%.
> > (just because it has more energy per gallon of fuel)
>
> > Anyway, I'm beginning the initial stages of looking for a new to us
> > used vehicle. This is partly because we will likely be moving to the
> > country next year, and my wife will have a commute probably between 30
> > and 60 minutes total driving each day. We already have a van, but would
> > like a smaller vehicle primarily for her to commute to work and back.
>
> > I'd like it to get at least 40 mpg highway, be a Diesel, and have
> > manual transmission. I think the 40 mpg should be a starting point -
> > I'm assuming they have improved efficiencies in the past 30 years, and
> > that they can probably do better than that now, but we'd be happy with 40+.
>
> > Can anyone recommend a car that would make us happy?
>
> Yes, but first you have to move to Europe or Asia :-)
>
> or
>
> Find a good Ford Festiva/Aspire with a stick for around 1000-1500 and
> invest what ever it takes to get it in prime running condition. You'll
> have tough little reliable car that consistently get over 40 mpg for a
> fraction of the price of a late model hybrid or diesel.
>

Here is an interesting read for you - the 50 litre challenge.
http://www.canadiandriver.com/50litre/main.htm

Take 13 economy cars (no diesel or hybrids) under $20,000 (CDN) and
see how far they can get on a tank of gas (50 litres). Bear in mind
that imperial gallons are larger than American gallons but the
interesting thing is the deltas. This is a real world test, and they
swapped drivers every hour to make sure that driving habits didn't
play a role. The Corolla went 1017 kms on 50 litres, the Dodge Calibre
went 653, the Suzuki SX 4 went 637.

You won't see many VW diesels out there, the new ones are now on the
market, but weren't sold for a couple of years, so the old ones still
get a premium and don't end up on the market as much.

James

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Cash for college just got tighter
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/1f892af434ff7bcf?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 29 2008 7:45 am
From: markanto123@gmail.com

Hold the pizzas and cancel the beer run: Cash for college just got
tighter.

Last summer, America's ongoing credit crisis hit unsuspecting college
students where they live -- in the private loans they depend upon to
make up the shortfall between what federal student loans and grants
can provide and what mom and dad can afford.

According to student lending giant Sallie Mae, 8 percent of all
students use private loans, averaging $7,694.

says that, "The Student Market for Credit Cards: Issues and Trends,"
by Maryland-based consulting firm Kaulkin Ginsberg finds that more
than two dozen lenders either stopped or cut back private lending to
students last summer.

Dimitri Michaud, Kaulkin Ginsberg consumer finance analyst and author
of the report, spotted the trend while analyzing the accounts
receivables of the lending institutions.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Super virtual girl. Sexy. Must look ALL!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/72fbdf98da99603c?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 29 2008 8:19 am
From: krystinacarle@gmail.com

Super real virtual girl. Sexy. Must look ALL http://ragdai.info/video.htm

==============================================================================

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