Frugal Living: 25 new messages in 9 topics

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

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Today's topics:

* Math on the bailout doesn't add up... - 12 messages, 7 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/3213ff522966e10e?hl=en
* Question about a new website called Bailecn - 4 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/fbb64cc5bd1e6f4c?hl=en
* monk privatdetektiv in Freising wirtschaftsermittlungen detektei de
privatdetektiv werden detektei sachsen - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/03a73eec27216bc5?hl=en
* Have you had a gas furnace installed in past 5 years? Need feedbackplease....
- 2 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/770153a7f68a2569?hl=en
* Google adsense money techniques : top 10 secrets revealed - 1 messages, 1
author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/9473b0f05633d40f?hl=en
* I'm celebrating because the bailout failed! - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/8ad3e712cb6e0e31?hl=en
* Death to the Bankers - 2 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/873f9d0f16005d4d?hl=en
* detektei erfurt detektei condor privatdetektiv gesucht detektei hessen
wachdienst frankfurt ab detektei privatdetektiv fremdgehen begleitschutz
privatdetektiv berlin privatdetektiv hamburg der privatdetektiv fuer
privatdetektiv detektei memmingen ein privatdetektiv - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/fe471ef62cee0b24?hl=en
* Can a rental property be used as a Roth IRA investment? - 1 messages, 1
author
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/3e9345a6d41c09d2?hl=en

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Math on the bailout doesn't add up...
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/3213ff522966e10e?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 12 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 29 2008 9:11 am
From: "Rod Speed"

Gil Faver <rowdy'sboss@xxyz.com> wrote:

>> Pity about the building boom that happened after the .com fiasco.

> Question: will the next two fiascos be credit card debt and alternative energy or alternative energy and credit card
> debt (i.e. which will implode first)?

Neither, essentially because neither are setup so that a fiasco is possible.

== 2 of 12 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 29 2008 9:15 am
From: "Gil Faver"

"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:6kcd24F78d6aU1@mid.individual.net...
> Gil Faver <rowdy'sboss@xxyz.com> wrote:
>
>>> Pity about the building boom that happened after the .com fiasco.
>
>> Question: will the next two fiascos be credit card debt and alternative
>> energy or alternative energy and credit card debt (i.e. which will
>> implode first)?
>
> Neither, essentially because neither are setup so that a fiasco is
> possible.

Well, the dot com boom went bust, and so will the alternative energy boom.
there will be a lot of money thrown at weaker and weaker companies and
concepts.

Credit Card debt is through the roof.

== 3 of 12 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 29 2008 10:16 am
From: William Souden

Rod Speed wrote:
> Elmo <ElmoHateSpam@noSpam4U.org> wrote:
>> Jim wrote:
>>> Elmo wrote:
>>>> Jitney wrote:
>>>>> It is hard to find statistics on the mortgage crisis, so I'm
>>>>> making an estimate. There are about 100 million households in the
>>>>> USA, assuming 10% are in default or foreclosure, which I think is
>>>>> a high estimate, subtracting rentals from the 100 million (if you
>>>>> can refute me from a credible authority, I would love to be
>>>>> corrected). Ten million divided into 700 billion works out to
>>>>> $700,000 per distressed property, which should on the average buy
>>>>> out each property twice. What is happening to the rest? I think
>>>>> this is a massive raid on the US treasury, with a threat of a
>>>>> Great Depression if we don't pay up, and that isn't even counting
>>>>> AIG, Countrywide, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, and Bear Stearns. Wall
>>>>> Street is stealing more than the Huns that raided the Roman
>>>>> Empire, with similar results. And this is not the end. Congress
>>>>> forked over 25 Billion to the automakers, the airlines are next,
>>>>> and who then? Ben and Jerries? We are looking at a new Dark Ages.
>>>> You're focusing too narrowly. The problem isn't the mortgages
>>>> alone, it's all of the "derivatives" which have been used to
>>>> "create value" and "manage risk". Over half of the GDP of the USA
>>>> comes from counting each link in the chain as Tom sells something
>>>> to Dick who turns around and sells it to Harry who breaks it into
>>>> pieces and sells shares of it to Louise and Louise buys a credit
>>>> default swap from Thelma. It's a lot like the Dutch tulip mania
>>>> except that there is precious little of actual, material value underneath it. And of course almost all
>>>> of it has been done with borrowed money -- sometimes as little as
>>>> 1% of the "value" being provided in the form of recognizable assets.
>>>>
>>>> Even those assets are suspect since so much of the concept of
>>>> "value" for equity shares has come to be estimated based on
>>>> declared earnings which are all too easy to manipulate as the
>>>> current quarter comes to a close and the bonus calculations and stock options start to come
>>>> out.
>>> well put Elmo. sadly though most if not the vast majority
>>> have 0% understanding for what you just explained.
>>>
>>> the real and tangible GDP relates to manufacturing. the country
>>> with the in country manufacturing has the wealth. the government
>>> of a country with manufacturing has a real and taxable infrastructure
>>> allowing that government of said country to collect real and usable
>>> revenues.
>>>
>>> if the workers had simply learned their place in the overall scheme
>>> of things and not attempted to exploit those with investment capital
>>> then america just might still be the number one country with the most
>>> jobs in manufacturing of real and durable goods.
>>>
>> Their _place_? Y'all need to study the history of anthracite mining
>> in Pennsylvania. That song "16 Tons" wasn't made up because the
>> workers were getting fair treatment by the mine owners.
>>
>>
>>> but some worker bees got together and attempted to reverse the roles
>>> of who exploits who. funny how those with investment capital smiled
>>> and waved bye, then simply moved on to a new location were hungry
>>> people [worker bees] were eager to be employed / [exploited].
>> The corporations who did that would have had a much harder time if
>> they hadn't bought laws that gave them ridiculous tax breaks for
>> doing so.
>
> More bullshit. They had nothing to do with what happened, and the proof
> of that is that every other modern first and second world country that didnt
> have those tax breaks also saw their manufacturing exported to China.
>
Why would you care? Welfare recipient can not be outsourced and tax
rates do not affect a leech like you.
>

== 4 of 12 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 29 2008 10:40 am
From: "Rod Speed"

Gil Faver <rowdy'sboss@xxyz.com> wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>> Gil Faver <rowdy'sboss@xxyz.com> wrote

>>>> Pity about the building boom that happened after the .com fiasco.

>>> Question: will the next two fiascos be credit card debt and alternative energy or alternative energy and credit card
>>> debt (i.e. which will implode first)?

>> Neither, essentially because neither are setup so that a fiasco is possible.

> Well, the dot com boom went bust,

Yep, but no one is actually stupid enough to believe that either
alternative energy or credit cards will ever be anything like that.

> and so will the alternative energy boom.

There is a hell of a lot more to a fiasco than just that.

> there will be a lot of money thrown at weaker and weaker companies and concepts.

Nope, not now that there is fuck all money floating around.

Even you should have noticed that operations like Lehmans that once
had a hell of a lot of money has lost the vast bulk of it just lately.

> Credit Card debt is through the roof.

Sure, but that cant produce a fiasco like the .com fiasco or the
sub prime fiasco because it cant be leveraged like they were.

You cant even do derivatives on credit card debt.

== 5 of 12 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 29 2008 11:22 am
From: Gunner Asch

On Mon, 29 Sep 2008 07:34:40 -0400, Ann <nntpmail@epix.net> wrote:

>On Mon, 29 Sep 2008 04:35:32 -0700, Gunner Asch wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 28 Sep 2008 22:29:32 -0700, "nospam" <a@b.c> wrote:
>>
>>>Not a single word from Bush or anyone in his administration, apologizing
>>>for this economic catastrophe, or even admitting it's a direct result of
>>>their relentless pursuit of deregulation.
>>>
>>>These people literally have no conscience. Amoral beasts.
>>>
>>>
>> Actually..the records show that they tried to stiffen up the regulations
>> both in 2003 and in 2005
>
>The records show that the Republicans had control of both the Senate and
>House through the end of 2004. Bush made the request that Congress give
>Treasury oversight in 2003.
>

Odd..the Democrats control both the House and Senate since 2006. Yet
they did nothing. So are they to blame?

"Just as Republicans got blamed for Enron, Worldcom and other early
2000's scandals that were actually due to the anything-goes Clinton
era, the media are now blaming them for the mortgage meltdown.

Republicans tried repeatedly to bring fiscal sanity to F&F. Dems
opposed them especially Chris Dodd and Barney Frank, who now run
Congress' key banking panels. History is utterly clear about this.

After Treasury Secretary Lawrence Summers warned Congress in 1999 of
the "systemic risk" posed by F&F, Congress held hearings the next
year. But nothing was done. Why? F&F had donated millions to key
congressmen and radical groups, ensuring no meaningful changes would
take place.

"We manage our political risk with the same intensity that we manage
our credit and interest risks" Fannie CEO Franklin Raines, a former
Clinton official and current Barack Obama adviser, bragged to
investors in 1999.

In November 2000, Clinton's HUD hailed "new regulations to provide
$2.4 trillion in mortgages for affordable housing for 28.1 million
families." It made F&F take part in the biggest federal expansion of
housing aid EVER.

Soon after taking office, Bush had his hands full with the Clinton
recession and 9/11. But by 2003, he proposd what the New York Times
called "the most significant regulatory overhaul in the housing
finance industry since the S&L crisis a decade ago."

The plan included a new regulator for F&F, one that could boost
capital mandates and look at how they managed risk. Even after
regulators in 2003 uncovered a scheme by F&F executives to overstate
earnings by $10.6 billion to boost bonuses, Dems killed reform.

"F&F are not facing any kind of financial crisis" said Barney Frank,
then-ranking Democrat on the Financial Services Committee. North
carolina Democrat Melvin Watt accused the White House of "weakening
the bargain power of poorer families and their ability to get
affordable housing."

In 2005, then-Fed Chairman Alan Greenspan told Congress: "We are
placing the total financial system of the future at substanial risk."

That year, Sen. John McCain, one of the three sponsors of a F&F reform
bill, said: "If Congress does not act, American taxpayers will
continue to be exposed to the enormous risk that F&F pose to the
housing market, the overall financial system and the economy as a
whole."

Sen. Harry Reid--now Majority Leader--accused the GOP of trying to
"cripple the ability of F&F to carry out their mission of expanding
home ownership."

THE BILL WENT NOWHERE!!

This year, the media have repeated Democrats' talking points about
this being a "Republican" disaster. McCain has repeatedly called for
reforming the mortgage giants. The White House has repeatedly warned
Congress. Some GOP members are complicit but F&F were created by Dems,
regulated by Dems, largely run by Dems and protected by Dems.

That's why taxpayers are now being asked for $700 billion." Terry
Jones

>> In both cases the Democrats blocked them totally.
>>
>> Seems the monsters in the DNC want a welfare state where everyone is
>> under the control of the government
>>
>>
>> "Obama, raises taxes and kills babies. Sarah Palin - raises babies and
>> kills taxes." Pyotr Flipivich

"Obama, raises taxes and kills babies. Sarah Palin - raises babies
and kills taxes." Pyotr Flipivich

== 6 of 12 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 29 2008 1:01 pm
From: Michael Coburn

On Mon, 29 Sep 2008 10:43:41 -0400, Jim wrote:

> Elmo wrote:
>>
>> Jitney wrote:
>> > It is hard to find statistics on the mortgage crisis, so I'm making
>> > an estimate. There are about 100 million households in the USA,
>> > assuming 10% are in default or foreclosure, which I think is a high
>> > estimate, subtracting rentals from the 100 million (if you can refute
>> > me from a credible authority, I would love to be corrected). Ten
>> > million divided into 700 billion works out to $700,000 per distressed
>> > property, which should on the average buy out each property twice.
>> > What is happening to the rest? I think this is a massive raid on the
>> > US treasury, with a threat of a Great Depression if we don't pay up,
>> > and that isn't even counting AIG, Countrywide, Fannie Mae, Freddie
>> > Mac, and Bear Stearns. Wall Street is stealing more than the Huns
>> > that raided the Roman Empire, with similar results. And this is not
>> > the end. Congress forked over 25 Billion to the automakers, the
>> > airlines are next, and who then? Ben and Jerries? We are looking at a
>> > new Dark Ages.
>>
>> You're focusing too narrowly. The problem isn't the mortgages alone,
>> it's all of the "derivatives" which have been used to "create value"
>> and "manage risk". Over half of the GDP of the USA comes from counting
>> each link in the chain as Tom sells something to Dick who turns around
>> and sells it to Harry who breaks it into pieces and sells shares of it
>> to Louise and Louise buys a credit default swap from Thelma. It's a
>> lot like the Dutch tulip mania except that there is precious little of
>> actual, material value underneath it. And of course almost all of it
>> has been done with borrowed money -- sometimes as little as 1% of the
>> "value" being provided in the form of recognizable assets.
>>
>> Even those assets are suspect since so much of the concept of "value"
>> for equity shares has come to be estimated based on declared earnings
>> which are all too easy to manipulate as the current quarter comes to a
>> close and the bonus calculations and stock options start to come out.
>
> well put Elmo. sadly though most if not the vast majority have 0%
> understanding for what you just explained.
>
> the real and tangible GDP relates to manufacturing. the country with
> the in country manufacturing has the wealth. the government of a
> country with manufacturing has a real and taxable infrastructure
> allowing that government of said country to collect real and usable
> revenues.
>
> if the workers had simply learned their place in the overall scheme of
> things and not attempted to exploit those with investment capital then
> america just might still be the number one country with the most jobs in
> manufacturing of real and durable goods.
>
> but some worker bees got together and attempted to reverse the roles of
> who exploits who. funny how those with investment capital smiled and
> waved bye, then simply moved on to a new location were hungry people
> [worker bees] were eager to be employed / [exploited].

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is the typical horseshit of "trickle down" rich bitch thievery to
which the Republicans have _ALWAYS_ subscribed. The lie is that the rich
people are necessary to a functioning economy in that they provide the
"capital" (a total distortion of the word) that allows businesses to be
built and that these businesses (all of which are very large) "create
jobs". The reality is that work needs to be done regardless of whether
there is a some rich bitch or not.

But the "financial industry" is a fine example of a lot of "jobs" that
_ARE_ created by the idle rich and a fine example of work that doesn't
need doing and which would not need doing if the rich were not constantly
blowing speculative bubbles to further enrich themselves.

The total collapse of all the derivatives will hurt only those who were a
part of the big casino in the sky. And the sooner that house of betting
slips implodes, the sooner a REAL financial sector can take over and the
sooner REAL investments can take place.

As posited by the "Elmo" the government can do what Roosevelt did and
simply refinance the current mortgages that are in default (at the
current value of the houses) on a 50 year mortgage for a fraction of what
is currently being GIVEN to the Wall Street weasels and the tax paying
public will not lose much at all (if anything). The Financial Sector
will take a HUGE hit as it should and most of the Financial sector will
be history (as it should be). People who have all (or even most) of
their retirement/pension funds invested in Financials will be harmed, but
their other investments should perform much better without the current
bloodsuckers.

We do not need to increase the interest rates paid on loans to _REAL_
commercial enterprises or the interest paid on the CURRENT value of
homes. What we need is the destruction of the current fake "Financial
Sector" so that a real "Financial Sector" can be reborn.

== 7 of 12 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 29 2008 1:06 pm
From: Michael Coburn

On Mon, 29 Sep 2008 15:35:50 +0000, Gil Faver wrote:

>> Pity about the building boom that happened after the .com fiasco.
>
> Question: will the next two fiascos be credit card debt and alternative
> energy or alternative energy and credit card debt (i.e. which will
> implode first)?

Why would you as a virus a question?

And the "alternative energy" sector of the economy is not going to do
anything but grow. Much more inflation is on the way and the price of
foreign oil as measured in dollars is going up and up. Offshore drilling
is a distraction and a means by which the Republicans can get campaign
funds by _GIVING_OUR_ oil to the multinational oil companies.

The Credit card debt is going to be a huge problem and should be a huge
problem. Now that people can no longer use the House as a meas to pay
off the credit cards then they are in deep trouble.

== 8 of 12 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 29 2008 1:20 pm
From: "Gil Faver"

"Michael Coburn" <mikcob@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:gbrcfp1alh@news6.newsguy.com...
> On Mon, 29 Sep 2008 15:35:50 +0000, Gil Faver wrote:
>
>>> Pity about the building boom that happened after the .com fiasco.
>>
>> Question: will the next two fiascos be credit card debt and alternative
>> energy or alternative energy and credit card debt (i.e. which will
>> implode first)?
>
> Why would you as a virus a question?
>
> And the "alternative energy" sector of the economy is not going to do
> anything but grow.

until it implodes. It is the next "bucket of money" opportunity. There
will be excess money thrown at the sector, and dubious companies and
alternatives will come crashing down. The truly worthy companies and
alternatives will come through and prosper (eventually), but there will be
vast excesses. Watch for it.

== 9 of 12 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 29 2008 12:28 pm
From: Ann

On Mon, 29 Sep 2008 11:22:16 -0700, Gunner Asch wrote:

> On Mon, 29 Sep 2008 07:34:40 -0400, Ann <nntpmail@epix.net> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 29 Sep 2008 04:35:32 -0700, Gunner Asch wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 28 Sep 2008 22:29:32 -0700, "nospam" <a@b.c> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Not a single word from Bush or anyone in his administration,
>>>>apologizing for this economic catastrophe, or even admitting it's a
>>>>direct result of their relentless pursuit of deregulation.
>>>>
>>>>These people literally have no conscience. Amoral beasts.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Actually..the records show that they tried to stiffen up the
>>> regulations both in 2003 and in 2005
>>
>>The records show that the Republicans had control of both the Senate and
>>House through the end of 2004. Bush made the request that Congress give
>>Treasury oversight in 2003.
>>
> Odd..the Democrats control both the House and Senate since 2006. Yet they
> did nothing. So are they to blame?

Nothing odd about it. Yes, the Democrats are partly at fault. Although,
realistically, a bill passed in 2007 (assuming Bush had signed it) would
have been unlikely to prevent the melt-down. The horse was not only out
of the barn; it was miles away.

<...>

== 10 of 12 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 29 2008 1:36 pm
From: DB

Jitney wrote:
...

First:

<http://www.fmcenter.org/atf/cf/%7BDFBB2772-F5C5-4DFE-B310-D82A61944339%7D/creditmarketdebt_GDP_07.pdf>

Now, there is a term call 'performing debt'. It is debt that 'can' be
paid off because of the value of underlying assets that are worth
maintaining. Much of the debt you see above is non performing,
especially so going into the future. I don't have the total debt to GDP
for 1929, but as I recall it was somewhere around 270%.

Now, total debt, less entitlements, (there is a biggy), for the U.S. is
pushing $60 trillion. Easily $20-$30 trillion more than a healthy system
can maintain. The big danger is that as bad debt gets written down
monetary deflation ensues. Deflation is what choked the economy of the
30s. Now, here is the plan:

<http://www.federalreserve.gov/BOARDDOCS/SPEECHES/2002/20021121/default.htm>

It is exactly what this is all about. They will pass this bill. But the
underlying problem gets fixed through hyperinflation.

Game over......

== 11 of 12 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 29 2008 1:59 pm
From: Michael Coburn

On Mon, 29 Sep 2008 11:22:16 -0700, Gunner Asch wrote:

> On Mon, 29 Sep 2008 07:34:40 -0400, Ann <nntpmail@epix.net> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 29 Sep 2008 04:35:32 -0700, Gunner Asch wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 28 Sep 2008 22:29:32 -0700, "nospam" <a@b.c> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Not a single word from Bush or anyone in his administration,
>>>>apologizing for this economic catastrophe, or even admitting it's a
>>>>direct result of their relentless pursuit of deregulation.
>>>>
>>>>These people literally have no conscience. Amoral beasts.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Actually..the records show that they tried to stiffen up the
>>> regulations both in 2003 and in 2005
>>
>>The records show that the Republicans had control of both the Senate and
>>House through the end of 2004. Bush made the request that Congress give
>>Treasury oversight in 2003.
>>
>>
> Odd..the Democrats control both the House and Senate since 2006. Yet
> they did nothing. So are they to blame?
>
>
> "Just as Republicans got blamed for Enron, Worldcom and other early
> 2000's scandals that were actually due to the anything-goes Clinton era,
> the media are now blaming them for the mortgage meltdown.

The Republicans were indeed responsible for the Tech Stock bubble and the
Housing bubble.

The Bubbles:

IN 1997 the Gingrich Congress passed the "Taxpayer Relief Act" as a
totally veto proof bill. Clinton could no more veto this Republican tax
cut than he could have turned back the tide. The vote in the House was
3xx to < 50 and in the Senate it was 90 to 8 (or close to it). No veto
of that bill was possible. It was a Republican bill all the way. That
tax code adjustment allowed people to cash out of their homes (a
retirement vehicle for most Americans) and to use the TAX FREE capital
gains for speculative purposes in the highly touted tech stocks and, at
the sam3e time to use a new home as a speculative vehicle.. And the
gains from such gambling ("investment") would be taxed at a mere 15%.
Prior to this speculation enabling bill homeowners could move from one
home to another with no tax penalty and could then take a one time
exemption at retirement (empty nest). But the new rules allowed the
American to use the money from the house to gamble in both real estate
and in the stock market.

Prior to this Republican tax cut, Clinton in 1995 attempted to veto a
bill passed by the Republicans that prevented small stockholders from
suing the management of tech companies for lying about "forward looking"
estimates of profits. That Republican bill was heavily lobbied by the
tech sector.

http://www.oreilly-sucks.com/News/clinton.htm ----------------------
On December 20, 1995, President Clinton vetoed the Public Securities
Litigation Reform Act, which would have restricted lawsuits against
corporation accused of securities fraud. In his veto message, Clinton
presciently noted that while he supported the notion of reducing
frivolous lawsuits: "I am not, however, willing to sign legislation that
will have the effect of closing the courthouse door on investors who have
legitimate claims. Those who are the victims of fraud should have
recourse in our courts. Our markets are as strong and effective as they
are because they operate -- and are seen to operate -- with integrity. I
believe that this bill, as modified in conference, could erode this
crucial basis of our markets' strength." The GOP Congress overrode
Clinton's veto.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

> Republicans tried repeatedly to bring fiscal sanity to F&F. Dems opposed
> them especially Chris Dodd and Barney Frank, who now run Congress' key
> banking panels. History is utterly clear about this.
>
> After Treasury Secretary Lawrence Summers warned Congress in 1999 of the
> "systemic risk" posed by F&F, Congress held hearings the next year. But
> nothing was done. Why? F&F had donated millions to key congressmen and
> radical groups, ensuring no meaningful changes would take place.

John the Con, McCain who presented a bill for altering the oversight of
Fannie Mae had simply seen an opportunity in the Firing of then CEO
Raines (A Clinton administration person) to move Fannie Mae much more
into the private sector and away from oversight by the OFHEO which had
cited accounting discrepancies at Fannie that resulted in the firing.
A classic case of ab-using a scandal to move the oversight to Republican
control.

> "We manage our political risk with the same intensity that we manage our
> credit and interest risks" Fannie CEO Franklin Raines, a former Clinton
> official and current Barack Obama adviser, bragged to investors in 1999.

Raines is __NOT__ an adviser to Obama, never was, and has told the Faux
News liars so in no uncertain terms. Yet the Lying Pigs will not leave
it alone. Obama's campaign people did contact Raines to ask about what
happened in 2004 when Raines was ousted as CEO of Fannie Mae.

> In November 2000, Clinton's HUD hailed "new regulations to provide $2.4
> trillion in mortgages for affordable housing for 28.1 million families."
> It made F&F take part in the biggest federal expansion of housing aid
> EVER.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/06/09/
AR2008060902626_2.html ---------------------------------
In 2000, as HUD revisited its affordable-housing goals, the housing
market had shifted. With escalating home prices, subprime loans were more
popular. Consumer advocates warned that lenders were trapping borrowers
with low "teaser" interest rates and ignoring borrowers' qualifications.

HUD restricted Freddie and Fannie, saying it would not credit them for
loans they purchased that had abusively high costs or that were granted
without regard to the borrower's ability to repay. Freddie and Fannie
adopted policies not to buy some high-cost loans.

That year, Freddie bought $18.6 billion in subprime loans; Fannie did not
disclose its number.

In 2001, HUD researchers warned of high foreclosure rates among subprime
loans.

"Given the very high concentration of these loans in low-income and
African American neighborhoods, the growth in subprime lending and
resulting very high levels of foreclosure is a real cause for concern,"
an agency report said.
ad_icon

But by 2004, when HUD next revised the goals, Freddie and Fannie's
purchases of subprime-backed securities had risen tenfold. Foreclosure
rates also were rising.

That year, President Bush's HUD ratcheted up the main affordable-housing
goal over the next four years, from 50 percent to 56 percent. John C.
Weicher, then an assistant HUD secretary, said the institutions lagged
behind even the private market and "must do more."

For Wall Street, high profits could be made from securities backed by
subprime loans. Fannie and Freddie targeted the least-risky loans. Still,
their purchases provided more cash for a larger subprime market.

"That was a huge, huge mistake," said Patricia McCoy, who teaches
securities law at the University of Connecticut. "That just pumped more
capital into a very unregulated market that has turned out to be a
disaster."

In 2003, the two bought $81 billion in subprime securities. In 2004, they
purchased $175 billion -- 44 percent of the market. In 2005, they bought
$169 billion, or 33 percent. In 2006, they cut back to $90 billion, or 20
percent. Generally, Freddie purchased more than Fannie and relied more
heavily on the securities to meet goals.

"The market knew we needed those loans," said Sharon McHale, a
spokeswoman for Freddie Mac. The higher goals "forced us to go into that
market to serve the targeted populations that HUD wanted us to serve,"
she said.

> Soon after taking office, Bush had his hands full with the Clinton
> recession and 9/11. But by 2003, he proposd what the New York Times
> called "the most significant regulatory overhaul in the housing finance
> industry since the S&L crisis a decade ago."
>
> The plan included a new regulator for F&F, one that could boost capital
> mandates and look at how they managed risk. Even after regulators in
> 2003 uncovered a scheme by F&F executives to overstate earnings by $10.6
> billion to boost bonuses, Dems killed reform.
>
> "F&F are not facing any kind of financial crisis" said Barney Frank,
> then-ranking Democrat on the Financial Services Committee. North
> carolina Democrat Melvin Watt accused the White House of "weakening the
> bargain power of poorer families and their ability to get affordable
> housing."
>
> In 2005, then-Fed Chairman Alan Greenspan told Congress: "We are placing
> the total financial system of the future at substanial risk."
>
> That year, Sen. John McCain, one of the three sponsors of a F&F reform
> bill, said: "If Congress does not act, American taxpayers will continue
> to be exposed to the enormous risk that F&F pose to the housing market,
> the overall financial system and the economy as a whole."
>
> Sen. Harry Reid--now Majority Leader--accused the GOP of trying to
> "cripple the ability of F&F to carry out their mission of expanding home
> ownership."
>
> THE BILL WENT NOWHERE!!
>
> This year, the media have repeated Democrats' talking points about this
> being a "Republican" disaster. McCain has repeatedly called for
> reforming the mortgage giants. The White House has repeatedly warned
> Congress. Some GOP members are complicit but F&F were created by Dems,
> regulated by Dems, largely run by Dems and protected by Dems.
>
> That's why taxpayers are now being asked for $700 billion." Terry Jones

The US government could buy out every loan in the minority neighborhoods
for approximately $200B and the taxpayers wouldn't lose a dime. The
Republicans are making a mountain out of a molehill because they have
nothing else. The Republicans have been in control of the Congress since
1995 and as George Bush took the Oval office in 2001 they have been in
control of the entire government since 2000 and they have done nothing
blown bubbles:

To insinuate that this rat turd is the cause of the current financial
meltdown is quite typical of the Republicans. This is a "nit" in the
current meltdown, but what else do the deregulating moronic Republicans
have? This is it, and they must dress it up and put as much lipstick on
it as possible. Most certainly the nonsense surrounding the "Community
Reinvestment Act" is an absurdity when we actually look at the minuscule
number of failed mortgages that were inside the boundaries where this act
was of any import. The US government could BUY OUT every one of these for
a pittance.

The attempt to alter the oversight of Fannie Mae in 2005 passed the House
in a vote of 39x to 2x and then was hijacked by the Republican Senate with
its own version. The Republican Senate attempted to weaken government
oversight by placing Fannie and Freddie further into the private sector
having it looked after in the same way as Federal Reserve that has failed
miserably since the repeal of Glass-Steagall in 1999 has "looked after"
the banking sector in general. Those who wish to read the actual bill
that was sponsored in the Senate by John the Con, McCain will see that it
attempted to move Fannie and Freddie out from under the eye of the Office
of Federal Housing Enterprise Oversight (OFHEO) or to rename OFHEO. This
was the same OFHEO that had found "accounting discrepancies" at Fannie Mae
and replaced Franklin Raines (CEO and X Clinton man) with an individual
more acceptable to the deregulating Republicans. The reality was that the
Republicans thought they had found an opportunity to promote more
Republican control of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.

Reality versus Republican pig manure:

The reality is that Frennie Mae's acceptance of less than stellar
mortgages was an attempt to support George Bush's version of a Lyndon
Johnson "Great Society" referred to as "The Ownership Society". The Bush
initiative for home ownership was the kingpin of the Republican fake
economy built on government debt and propped up by even more private
sector debt. Whereas government debt is actually fiat money (a fact)
then, to the moron Republicans and their pet neoclassical moronic
economists, private sector debt must also be good. Surely you understand
that "deficits don't matter". And while the complicit actions of the Fed
in lax oversight of the banks was seminal to the overall bubble blowing
fake economy, the centerpiece that allowed tax cuts for the rich and
concurrent imperialism the "American Dream Downpayment Act".

Lets take a look at who was running this ship since 2000:

http://realtytimes.com/rtpages/20020618_housinginitiative.htm ----
Published: June 18, 2002
NAR, NAHB Endorse White House, HUD Minority Housing Initiative by Realty
Times Staff

The National Association of Realtors praised President George W. Bush and
Housing and Urban Development Secretary Mel Martinez for their commitment
to increasing minority homeownership opportunities and pledged its full
support for the White House minority homeownership initiative announced
yesterday. Regional Vice President Bob McMillan of Decatur, Ala.,
represented NAR -- one of about a dozen partners in this public-private
initiative -- at this morning's announcement ceremony at St. Paul AME
Church in Atlanta.

-------------------------------------------------------------

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0EIN/is_/ai_92843512 -----

WASHINGTON--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Oct. 15, 2002

The National Association of Realtors(R) announced today that it has made a
pledge to the White House to help meet the President's challenge to
increase the number of minority homeowners in America by 5.5 million
before the end of the decade.
----------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/10/20031015-10.html For
Immediate Release
Office of the Press Secretary
October 15, 2003

President Calls on Senate to Pass American Dream Downpayment Act Remarks
by the President on Housing and the Economy
----------------------------------------------------------

For Immediate Release
Office of the Press Secretary
December 16, 2003

President Bush Signs American Dream Downpayment Act of 2003 Remarks by the
President at Signing of the American Dream Downpayment Act Department of
Housing and Urban Development Washington, D.C.
-----------------------------------------------------------

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb5246/is_200403/ai_n19793121 --
Mortgage Banking, March, 2004 :
FANNIE MAE HAS ANNOUNCED A PLEDGE to help 6 million families--including
1.8 million minority families--become first-time homeowners over the next
decade. The pledge boosts the company's commitment to President Bush's
Minority Homeownership Initiative and will help raise the minority
homeownership rate from 50.6 percent currently to 55 percent, with the
ultimate goal of closing the gap between minority homeownership rates and
nonminority homeownership rates.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

But the reason you don't see garbage about the role played by Fannie Mae
anywhere but on Faux News is that it just isn't newsworthy. It is
because it is right wing crap that is almost irrelevant.

Yup. Raines is currently a supposed crook that mis-stated the financial
position of Fannie so as to gain a windfall from bonuses. But that has
little or nothing to do with any of the _*current*_ problems in the
economy or even with the current problems at Fannie. The problems at
Fannie that stem from the "Community Reinvestment act" pale in
significance to the problems resulting from the "Bush Home Ownership
Initiative" and the "American Dream Downpayment Act". And those problems
in turn are minuscule compared to the bubble created by normal middle
class people attempting to create capital gains by speculating in the
price of homes. These Republicans have had total control of HUD since
January of 2001. Bill Clinton is history and if the economy was in
jeopardy due to a Clinton failure in 1999 or a Carter failure of 1977 they
had the power and the time to get it fixed. But they didn't get anything
fixed and instead fanned the flames of speculation. And the Bush home
ownership initiatives were simply a part of the lying fascist pig
Republican war party economics of debt.

== 12 of 12 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 29 2008 2:42 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

Gil Faver <rowdy'sboss@xxyz.com> wrote
> Michael Coburn <mikcob@verizon.net> wrote
>> Gil Faver wrote

>>>> Pity about the building boom that happened after the .com fiasco.

>>> Question: will the next two fiascos be credit card debt and
>>> alternative energy or alternative energy and credit card debt (i.e.
>>> which will implode first)?

>> And the "alternative energy" sector of the economy is not going to do anything but grow.

We'll see...

Taint gunna grow if we end up with another great depression or worse.

> until it implodes. It is the next "bucket of money" opportunity.

Not if we end up with another great depression or worse.

> There will be excess money thrown at the sector,

There wont be any excess money to throw. Havent you noticed the massive
cost of the bailout of Fanny, Freddy, AIG even without the $700B bailout ?

> and dubious companies and alternatives will come crashing down.

That will happen regardless if we end up with another great depression or worse.

> The truly worthy companies and alternatives will come through and prosper (eventually), but there will be vast
> excesses. Watch for it.

Bet there wont. In spades if we end up with another great depression or worse.

The .com and sub prime fiascos were partly the result of lots of money with nowhere to go,
particularly after the .com fiasco turned so many off the stockmarket and into the housing market.

They wont have the surplus cash this time with nowhere to put it.

In spades if we end up with another great depression or worse.

They will mostly put that into stuff like gold instead if we end up with another great depression or worse.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Question about a new website called Bailecn
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/fbb64cc5bd1e6f4c?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 29 2008 10:50 am
From: jannps@aim.com

On Sep 11, 8:16 pm, chief_thrac...@yahoo.com (Chief Thracian) wrote:
> On Thu, 11 Sep 2008 00:24:33 -0700, SMS <scharf.ste...@geemail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Avoid it at all costs.
>
> Walk away from the light!

Why do you say to avoid this site? I've also received an e-mail about
this page and am blown away with the pricing but....is it a
trustworthy site? Please give a reason for your discounting it!

Thanx

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 29 2008 2:37 pm
From: itsjoannotjoann@webtv.net

On Sep 29, 12:50 pm, jan...@aim.com wrote:
> On Sep 11, 8:16 pm, chief_thrac...@yahoo.com (Chief Thracian) wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 11 Sep 2008 00:24:33 -0700, SMS <scharf.ste...@geemail.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > >Avoid it at all costs.
>
> > Walk away from the light!
>
> Why do you say to avoid this site? I've also received an e-mail about
> this page and am blown away with the pricing but....is it a
> trustworthy site? Please give a reason for your discounting it!
>
> Thanx

>
>
For those that don't know how to use their computers to research sites
what you got was a SPAM message. You've heard of spam, haven't you?
And this is a company from China, so do you think you're going to get
some super duper technical support or repair when you need it?? Can
you kiss your money good-bye??

Geez, people never cease to amaze me. And after you buy this
fantastically low priced piece of junk I've got some lovely ocean
front property to sell you right outside of Oklahoma City. Great
breezes right off the water and the deepsea fishing is awesome.

(Shakes head at the gullibility of people that claim to be intelligent
adults.)

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 29 2008 2:40 pm
From: itsjoannotjoann@webtv.net

On Sep 20, 7:02 am, bail...@gmail.com wrote:
> i think that website is good, beacause i just bought the laptop form
> it. the price is so increditable, but they provide us the best
> senrvice, so i think it is a good place for us!

>
>
And here's the shiftless posters IP information:

IP range : 66.228.113.0 - 66.228.113.7
Network name : NET-66-228-113-0
Infos : Liden Technology Limited.
Infos : 44#, Pingyuan Road
Infos : Xinxiang
Infos : 453000
Country : China (CN)
Abuse E-mail : abuse@sl.idc.mn
Source : ARIN

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 29 2008 2:42 pm
From: itsjoannotjoann@webtv.net

>
>
I thought people in Denmark would have been smarter than this. I
guess not.

IP range : 87.55.128.0 - 87.55.131.255
Network name : TDC-TELEDANMARK-BREDBAANDSADSL-NET
Infos : TDC BB-ADSL users
Country : Denmark (DK)
Abuse E-mail : abuse@post.tele.dk
Source : RIPE

==============================================================================
TOPIC: monk privatdetektiv in Freising wirtschaftsermittlungen detektei de
privatdetektiv werden detektei sachsen
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/03a73eec27216bc5?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 29 2008 11:21 am
From: "webilix950@googlemail.com"

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Have you had a gas furnace installed in past 5 years? Need
feedbackplease....
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/770153a7f68a2569?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 29 2008 11:29 am
From: phil scott

weil is samo samo... his local wholesaler probably carriies it.
Rheems reputation where it
is cheap was prior to the japanese buy out. its maybe the best now,
especially for the price,
and simple. thats important.

> I had done a few minor repairs on the thing, but this problem was off
> the troubleshooting flow chart on the case, so I called a pro.
> I was worried about getting somebody good, but when I talked to this
> guy on the phone after finding him on the net, I felt better.
> I told him I wanted him to send somebody who knew Rheem White-Rodgers
> controls, and he sharply said, "That's me - *I'm* coming."

everybody knows white rogers, etc... its the standard along with a
couple of others that
work the same way.

> Still, I was shocked and laughed out loud when he had the thing
> working in about 2 minutes. Me and my son had spent a couple hours
> farting around with it to no avail. Not to mention the time I spent
> looking for info on the net.

probably went off on a high temp cut out...he just pushed the button.

> He used both hands to flex the main board, freeing a stuck relay.

that was clever.

> Didn't push me to buy a new board but said the relay could stick
> again, since the contacts were probably burnt. Don't want that
> when the temps are below zero, so I told him to replace it.

he sounds smart and honest.

> It's one of the more expensive home furnace boards, costing @$350.
> He could have just left with his $85 for the service call.
> This incident reminded me of the joke about paying the mechanic a
> large sum to tap something with a hammer to get it working. You're
> not paying for the tap, you're paying for "where" to tap.
> This circuit board had what seemed like a hundred wires coming off it

thats why i like simpler systems....just a few connections to go
south.

> and as he replaced it he muttered once he never saw so many damn
> neutrals in his life.

no shortage of idiots in some engineering depts.

> He also did an adjustment to the squirrel cage
> eliminating a noise it was making. I'll call him again if I have
> further furnace problems, or need other work. He knows a lot good
> guys in the trades. Got one coming today to waterproof a couple of
> foundation leaks in the basement.
> Anyway, the trick is always finding the right guy/advice. Any time I
> get something done right the first time for a decent price I feel
> lucky.

you did well.

Phil scott
>
> --Vic- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 29 2008 11:30 am
From: phil scott

On Sep 29, 4:16 am, Vic Smith <thismailautodele...@comcast.net> wrote:
> On Sun, 28 Sep 2008 11:26:22 -0700 (PDT), phil scott
>
>
>
>
>
> <p...@philscott.net> wrote:
> >On Sep 28, 10:14 am, Vic Smith <thismailautodele...@comcast.net>
> >wrote:
> >> On Sun, 28 Sep 2008 09:51:05 -0700 (PDT), phil scott
>
> >> I've got a 10 year old Rheem Criterion II that just needed a new main
> >> board. Cost $480 to get it fixed. It's a so-called 80%.
>
> >that was prior to the Japanese buying Rheem, in that time frame and
> >earlier they made low end equipment, about
> >the same as the rest of the builder grade equipment in the US.... its
> >only been Japanese owned for 5 years or so.
>
> >their latest is quite impressive...one of the 97% hot water heaters I
> >purchased for a job had a 6 wire control system, with
> >quick change sensors for fast trouble shooting.. US boilers run to a
> >hundred or more wire connections...some are a real
> >pain.
>
> >however, it behoves a person to do their own reseaarch...thiis is
> >just my opinion.
>
> One problem is what you mentioned - the models change.
> The guy that repaired mine didn't care for Rheem and likes Weil.
> But he did comment that he was surprised at the quality of my
> Rheem's burner assembly. Maybe he was being nice.
> I had done a few minor repairs on the thing, but this problem was off
> the troubleshooting flow chart on the case, so I called a pro.
> I was worried about getting somebody good, but when I talked to this
> guy on the phone after finding him on the net, I felt better.
> I told him I wanted him to send somebody who knew Rheem White-Rodgers
> controls, and he sharply said, "That's me - *I'm* coming."
> Still, I was shocked and laughed out loud when he had the thing
> working in about 2 minutes. Me and my son had spent a couple hours
> farting around with it to no avail. Not to mention the time I spent
> looking for info on the net.
> He used both hands to flex the main board, freeing a stuck relay.
> Didn't push me to buy a new board but said the relay could stick
> again, since the contacts were probably burnt. Don't want that
> when the temps are below zero, so I told him to replace it.
> It's one of the more expensive home furnace boards, costing @$350.
> He could have just left with his $85 for the service call.
> This incident reminded me of the joke about paying the mechanic a
> large sum to tap something with a hammer to get it working. You're
> not paying for the tap, you're paying for "where" to tap.
> This circuit board had what seemed like a hundred wires coming off it
> and as he replaced it he muttered once he never saw so many damn
> neutrals in his life. He also did an adjustment to the squirrel cage
> eliminating a noise it was making. I'll call him again if I have
> further furnace problems, or need other work. He knows a lot good
> guys in the trades. Got one coming today to waterproof a couple of
> foundation leaks in the basement.
> Anyway, the trick is always finding the right guy/advice. Any time I
> get something done right the first time for a decent price I feel
> lucky.
>
> --Vic- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

PS if the furnace was over 7 years old though, id of replaced it....

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Google adsense money techniques : top 10 secrets revealed
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/9473b0f05633d40f?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 29 2008 11:33 am
From: madhurimaniknepal

Google adsense money techniques : top 10 secrets revealed

Learn the secrets of earning money online using google adsense and
become financially free. Start making online money in next two minutes
Please visit
http://www.how-to-make-money-online.netfirms.com
http://www.how-to-make-money-online.netfirms.com/google-goggle-adsense.html

==============================================================================
TOPIC: I'm celebrating because the bailout failed!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/8ad3e712cb6e0e31?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 29 2008 1:29 pm
From: "Dave"

"OhioGuy" <none@none.net> wrote in message news:gbrcvi$620$1@aioe.org...
> I just read that politicians were getting more phone calls today than
> ever before regarding the bailout.

Good. And 100 to 1 against the measure, too.

>
> Yay - that was me! I made a difference! We basically let our voices be
> heard, and told them if they used our money to pay off the companies who
> caused this whole fiasco, then we would be showing them the door in
> about 5 weeks. Today we saw the Republic working the way it should, with
> representatives REPRESENTING the will of their constituents.

I see it differently. By a narrow margin, MOST of the representatives were
representing the will of the people. Now I'm wondering what the FUCK were
all the others thinking?

>
> I think the bailout as worded was a rush job that would have done very
> little to alleviate the current situation.

Actually, it would have done more harm than good. That's what happens when
you reward incompetence. You breed more incompetence.

> We simply need to take a
> month to look things over, get feedback from economists, and craft
> something that makes more sense. Something that might actually WORK
> would probably be a good idea, too.

Best thing that could happen for our country right now is for congress (both
houses) to take a year off and do nothing. Really. Let the banks that
SHOULD fail, fail. It will sort itself out just fine, without our
interference. -Dave

On a side note, I sincerely hope that you aren't celebrating too soon. The
measure was only narrowly defeated. I'm shocked that it WAS defeated. I
expected the traitors in DC to vote against the will of the people, as per
usual. I wouldn't be too shocked if the measure EVENTUALLY passes
nyway. -Dave

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Death to the Bankers
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/873f9d0f16005d4d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 29 2008 1:40 pm
From: wismel@yahoo.com

On Wed, 24 Sep 2008 13:24:51 -0700 (PDT), St Georges Day April 23rd
<bbbbbdfgdfgdgddfg@googlemail.com> wrote:

>Death to the Bankers
>
>There are all kinds of political slogans. All of them are designed to
>put a message into the empty noggins of as many people as possible.
>And when the message is received and the People become enlightened,
>then action is taken and political change occurs. Small wonder that
>the Enemies of Mankind always try to monopolize the Media so that
>these slogans are muffled and their own slogans and messages go out to
>deceive the world and to betray the People.
>
>In modern times, these Deceivers have promoted their own slogans such
>as "Free Trade" or "Normal Business Cycle" or "We are all Immigrants"
>in order to put false ideas into the empty noggins of the people who
>trust them and believe their words.
>
>For example, in 1914, the bankers promised that if we gave them the
>authority to loan us back our own money at interest, that they would
>make sure that there would never be any bank failures or inflations or
>depressions. After all, they assured us, politicians cannot be trusted
>with printing money but only bankers who understand how to filch the
>smallest farthing should have such power. And so, the empty noggins on
>Capital Hill believed that the world's greediest and most ruthless
>people could be entrusted with our wealth and gave to the bankers the
>Federal Reserve Banking Swindle, the world's biggest cash cow, for
>their very own.
>
>It took only fifteen years for the bankers to get all of the kinks
>ironed out and the Federal Reserve Banking System working smoothly.
>Then, once they were confident that all was in place, they and their
>relatives on Wall Street engineered the Stock Market Crash of 1929 and
>the Great Depression. During the Great Depression, as millions of
>people starved and were thrown into poverty, the bankers grew fat and
>were able to buy cheap factories and businesses so that their extended
>families could also make a lot of money once they had brought them all
>over as "oppressed immigrants" from Eastern Europe. Once the factories
>were safely in the hands of their relatives, the bankers put those
>factories to work making their relatives rich with war material for
>World War Two.
>
>After all, nothing makes money for a banker better than a war. Unless,
>of course, it's two wars, or three or more than three. Korea, Vietnam,
>and the present, unending war against the enemies of Israel do nothing
>but makes money. Yes, wars kill and maim millions of people and cause
>unimaginable suffering, but they are really wonderful money-makers for
>the bankers and their relatives in manufacturing and retail. Oy, such
>profits, you wouldn't believe!
>
>Such wars were never designed to be won and an end put to the alleged
>"causes" for such wars because wars that are never won must forever be
>fought. And unending wars create unending profits for those greedy and
>ruthless monsters on Wall Street and the bloated creatures counting
>their profits in the banks.
>
>Presently, the bankers have been able to blackmail and bribe the
>treasonous Congressmen into allowing them to rape and pillage the
>People and to destroy our country. After all, when the People realize
>that we are being defrauded, we tend to become agitated towards those
>who defraud us. So, to make sure that the bankers are safe, the bribed
>politicians promote the immigration of foreigners to dispossess us of
>our country just as the bankers have dispossessed us of our wealth.
>After the bankers have shipped our manufacturing overseas at great
>profit to themselves, and after they have foreclosed our homes since
>we no longer have jobs to pay the mortgage, the next step is to sell
>the foreclosed homes to the foreigners whom the bankers have made
>wealthy by giving them our jobs.
>
>But these schemes become unraveled because the huge amounts of money
>that the bankers claim exist in the country, in fact, are merely
>delusions of a banker's account ledger. If you charge fifty percent
>interest on a dollar, that makes a dollar fifty. Even though the
>dollar exists, the interest does not exist. It is nothing but a
>banker's creation through accounting trickery. The same is true with
>the trillions of dollars allegedly in circulation today. Most of this
>money does not, in fact, exist because it is only an entry in an
>account book but not real money.
>
>And so, how can a banker sell the empty houses that he has swindled
>from the People if there is not enough money to buy them? The People
>can't buy them because we have no jobs. Our jobs were sent off to
>India and China and Mexico and every other place where the bankers and
>their relatives could profit from cheap labor. And so, our houses are
>sold to the fully-employed foreigners and immigrants who can afford to
>buy them, at interest, from the bankers because the bankers gave them
>our jobs.
>
>But even so, the account books claim that the country owes the bankers
>a lot more money than really exists because interest-on-a-loan always
>creates the impression that more money is owed than was borrowed. And
>when that interest is compounded, the mere numbers exponentially make
>the false claim that everything in the world is owed to the bankers
>and that we are in debt to them. Like a magic-wand that gives its
>possessor the whole world, interest-on-a-loan gives the bankers (in
>theory and on paper) all of our wealth for free. And for the bankers
>to get our wealth, all we have to do is agree that his swindles are
>honest and that we are in his debt.
>
>So, what is a poor, starving banker to do when he "owns" more houses
>than he can sell to foreigners? What is he to do as these homes are
>quickly being destroyed as the dispossessed, homeless and starving
>street people squat in them and tear them apart? The quick solution to
>this emergency of the bankers not having enough money, is to have the
>tax payers whom the banker has betrayed, buy them.
>
>And so you see, our present "credit crises" can very easily be solved
>by giving our tax money to the bankers so that they can fill their
>vaults with the real dollars that their ledger books say should
>actually be there. Make no mistake; this is not "creative book
>keeping" at all. This is out-and-out larceny. The Congress-critters
>know it but their own mortgages are owned by the bankers so they are
>all in favor of offering us up to Molach to save themselves.
>
>Those grinning, smiling politicans know that they are going to give
>the bankers and the Wall Street swindlers 700 billion of our dollars
>just so that these rich thieves can continue to fly their Leer jets
>and vacation in their Swiss chalets and Riviera resorts. But to make
>us all agree to the swindle and to not vote the politicians out for
>treason or to shoot them, they are pretending to wring their hands and
>beat their breasts over "how" to give the bankers our money. The
>question is not "should" they betray us to the swindling bankers and
>Wall Street vampires but "how" can they betray us. And once our money
>is given to those vultures, we are assured that it will be "business
>as usual" and that the "crises has passed" and that a "new business
>cycle" will begin as the bankers continue to defraud us of our
>property, betray us to our enemies and dispossess us of our lands.
>
>Do the bankers sit by and let the politicians decide their fate? Do
>they let the wheels of politics and democracy turn with solid verity?
>Of course not! They are bankers and thieves. They are not about to let
>a politician decide the fate of the People when they can add a bit of
>blackmail to the mix. And so, to make sure that the politicians hurry
>up and give them 700 billion dollars with no strings attached, the
>bankers make their great threat. They play their ace-in-the-hole. They
>up the ante and tell you they aren't bluffing.
>
>Remember when the bankers promised that there would never be a
>depression if we gave them the power to loan us back our own money at
>interest? Remember that almost as soon as they got the Federal Reserve
>Banking Act approved, they threw us into the Great Depression? So, are
>the bankers today nicer than the ones who controlled the FED in 1929?
>No, because this time they are threatening the politicans with this
>ace-in-the-hole: "Give us 700 billion dollars for free or we will
>cause another Great Depression."
>
>And so, we are back at full circle with our money teetering on the
>brink of total loss on one side and another Great Depression on the
>other side. Only this time, there is one difference that the bankers
>did not foresee. In 1929, they enjoyed the fruits of their swindles
>with their Rolls-Royces, mansions, Charleston-dancing flappers,
>bootleg liquor, European vacations and Cuban cigars. But now in 2008,
>there is a slogan than will stop them just like a steel trap stops a
>rat.
>
>DEATH TO THE BANKERS
>
>Grafitti this on the walls of every bank. Slap this on bumper stickers
>on every car. Tattoo this on the forehead of every politician you can
>tie-up and torture. Brand this in fear over the heart of every banker
>in the land. A slogan is just some empty words that put ideas into the
>minds of empty noggins. But once a few empty noggins are filled with
>illuminating light, actions occur and the world is changed. It doesn't
>take much to make the world a better place. Anyone can do it. It may
>be a long road that a banker walks on his way to the scaffold, but
>every road starts with just one step. And you, yes YOU! You can help a
>banker on his way. Start with just one slogan spray-painted today.
>
>DEATH TO THE BANKERS
>
>http://vnnforum.com/showthread.php?t=80557

A long but rewarding read. Thanks to those 228 House members who voted
today to now allow the plundering of 700 billion dollars by Wall
Street gangsters.

ted

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 29 2008 2:20 pm
From: "Dave"

> A long but rewarding read. Thanks to those 228 House members who voted
> today to now allow the plundering of 700 billion dollars by Wall
> Street gangsters.
>
> ted

Whoa. Talk about a typo!!! :) -Dave

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TOPIC: detektei erfurt detektei condor privatdetektiv gesucht detektei hessen
wachdienst frankfurt ab detektei privatdetektiv fremdgehen begleitschutz
privatdetektiv berlin privatdetektiv hamburg der privatdetektiv fuer
privatdetektiv detektei memmingen ein privatdetektiv
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/fe471ef62cee0b24?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 29 2008 2:38 pm
From: "webilix950@googlemail.com"

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privatdetektiv fuer privatdetektiv detektei memmingen ein
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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Can a rental property be used as a Roth IRA investment?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/3e9345a6d41c09d2?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 29 2008 2:43 pm
From: itsjoannotjoann@webtv.net

On Sep 29, 5:33 am, Vic Smith <thismailautodele...@comcast.net> wrote:
> On Mon, 29 Sep 2008 05:24:58 -0500, Mark Anderson
>
> <m...@nospambrandylion.com> wrote:
> >In article n...@none.net says...
> >> Anyone have any ideas on this? Thanks for your input.
>
> >The first place I go for any advice on complicated financial, legal, or
> >relationship matters is here on Usenet.
>
> Me too. But to be safe I get a second opinion from my parrot.
> Trust but verify.
>
> --Vic

>
>
My cat gives me great advice on any subject I bring up. Perhaps the
OP should consider getting a cat, too??

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Monday, September 29, 2008

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