Frugal Living: misc.consumers.frugal-living - 26 new messages in 11 topics

misc.consumers.frugal-living
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Today's topics:

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TOPIC: This is one good reason I hate God
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/5f54a12b6442f2cd?hl=en
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== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 22 2010 11:16 pm
From: The Real Bev

On 08/22/10 17:45, Edward Dolan wrote:

> "The Real Bev"<bashley101@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 08/22/10 15:09, Edward Dolan wrote:
> [...]
>>> Always briefly explain what is to be found on any website you would
>>> like anyone to go to. That is not an unreasonable request.
>>
>> It's the bible translated into the supposed language of semi-literate
>> cats. It's funnier than if it had been translated into Swedish Chef.
>
> So that is what you should have said to begin with and I would have gone to
> your link. I do not have a phobia about links, but I have learned from
> bitter experience on Usenet never to trust anyone when it comes to links.
>
>>> I am now the guardian of RBS since the Great Mr. Vandeman has left us
>>> for greener pastures.
>>
>> Huh? Do you mean dead or something less permanent?
>
> No, he is on other media now. Usenet is for idiots and those who like to
> poke fun at idiots like me.

No, it's for people who remember what it used to be and see no alternate
that's even half as good. Private mail lists can be even better,
perhaps, but they suffer from the lack of new blood.

>> I used to read the
>> dirtbike group before it destroyed itself.
>
> I think Mr. Vandeman pretty much destroyed the group (AMB) with his
> monomania against mountain bikers. I am on his side of course, but not
> nearly so strident.

Did you actually SEE that whipsnake? V*ndeman could have been ignored,
but NOOO they had to take the group moderated and it never got off the
ground.

>> I HOPE I voted against
>> moderation, but I can't remember. I was very young at the time :-) I
>> just read an announcement that rec.bicycles.off-road had apparently been
>> abandoned, but I don't think it ever even got established. Moderation
>> doesn't work very well.
>
> Moderation does not work at all. All you will end up with is the most boring
> posts imaginable, which no one will ever read. Unmoderated Usenet has its
> flaws but at least occasionally something gets said that wakes up all the
> sleepy heads.
>
> Moderated groups will only work if they are composed of intellectual types.

In which case no moderation is needed. OTOH, maybe not. Intellectual
types can be just as offensive or looney as normal people. Didn't
V*ndeman have a doctorate? OTOH, I've known some pretty damn dumb PhDs...

> Otherwise, it is doomed. Regular folks can never think of anything
> interesting to say. However, on an unmoderated newsgroup, even the most
> ignorant knows how to say 'fuck you'. I have to laugh because words can
> never hurt me.
>
>>>> And speaking of phobias -- We have words like homophobia and
>>>> islamophobia, defined as fear of those concepts. -philia denotes
>>>> love of concepts. I've googled -- unsuccessfully -- for a while
>>>> trying to find a proper suffix to indicate indifference or distaste
>>>> for concepts. Any ideas?
>>>
>>> Yes! Fuck ALL Muslims! I hate the whole god damn tribe of them. I
>>> have repeatedly advocated the atom bombing of the entire Middle East
>>> (save Israel of course), but no one ever listens to me.

The neutron bomb might have been useful, right? I can think of a lot of
places such a bomb might be placed to good effect.

>> That's not a suffix. It just seems wrong that the only words available
>> indicate fear or love. Isn't there anything else?
>
> I am not much interested in the subtleties of language. But I am interested
> in fucking the Muslims all the way to Hell and back! God damn their rotten
> primitive souls!

They aren't all that much different from other religions. A pox on them
all.

Cheers, Bev
"Even Islamic terrorists don't hate America like liberals do.
They don't have the energy. If they had that much energy,
they'd have indoor plumbing by now." -- Ann Coulter

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Mon, Aug 23 2010 7:35 am
From: SparkoHeaps

>
> Many thanks Lou. I am reminded all over again why I always hated
> linguistics. What a total waste of time to ever make a study of languages.
>

You'd like the lolcatbible then.

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Mon, Aug 23 2010 8:07 am
From: "h"

"SparkoHeaps" <sparkoheaps@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:d301458b-a7d2-439e-ba7f-c11f8f8fdffe@w15g2000pro.googlegroups.com...
>
>>
>> Many thanks Lou. I am reminded all over again why I always hated
>> linguistics. What a total waste of time to ever make a study of
>> languages.
>>
>
> You'd like the lolcatbible then.

Ceiling cat sez "DO NOT WANT. EPIC FAIL!" That one never gets old.

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Mon, Aug 23 2010 9:04 am
From: "Edward Dolan"

"The Real Bev" <bashley101@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:i4t3nm$5gt$1@news.eternal-september.org...
> On 08/22/10 17:45, Edward Dolan wrote:
[...]
>> Usenet is for idiots and those who like to
>> poke fun at idiots like me.
>
> No, it's for people who remember what it used to be and see no alternate
> that's even half as good. Private mail lists can be even better, perhaps,
> but they suffer from the lack of new blood.

Private mail lists also assume a level of interest which most of us don't
have. Usenet works, but just barely.

>>> I used to read the
>>> dirtbike group before it destroyed itself.
>>
>> I think Mr. Vandeman pretty much destroyed the group (AMB) with his
>> monomania against mountain bikers. I am on his side of course, but not
>> nearly so strident.
>
> Did you actually SEE that whipsnake? V*ndeman could have been ignored,
> but NOOO they had to take the group moderated and it never got off the
> ground.

That is my understanding too.

>>> I HOPE I voted against
>>> moderation, but I can't remember. I was very young at the time :-) I
>>> just read an announcement that rec.bicycles.off-road had apparently
>>> been
>>> abandoned, but I don't think it ever even got established. Moderation
>>> doesn't work very well.
>>
>> Moderation does not work at all. All you will end up with is the most
>> boring
>> posts imaginable, which no one will ever read. Unmoderated Usenet has its
>> flaws but at least occasionally something gets said that wakes up all the
>> sleepy heads.
>>
>> Moderated groups will only work if they are composed of intellectual
>> types.
>
> In which case no moderation is needed. OTOH, maybe not. Intellectual
> types can be just as offensive or looney as normal people. Didn't
> V*ndeman have a doctorate? OTOH, I've known some pretty damn dumb PhDs...

People are people regardless of their education. Intellectual types can be
the most annoying of all.
[...]

>> I am not much interested in the subtleties of language. But I am
>> interested
>> in fucking the Muslims all the way to Hell and back! God damn their
>> rotten
>> primitive souls!
>
> They aren't all that much different from other religions. A pox on them
> all.

Even so, Muslims are an especially reprehensible lot of ignoramuses. It is a
primitive religion fit only for savages.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

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TOPIC: Our house insurance company screwed up our mortgage payment
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/87b02573a38aaa83?hl=en
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== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Aug 23 2010 5:37 am
From: Napoleon

On Sat, 21 Aug 2010 20:14:00 -0500, Vic Smith
<thismailautodeleted@comcast.net> wrote:

>Watch out for incompetence and sharks. Always.

That'd be everyone on the planet. In any financial transaction someone
is trying to get some money out of you (earned or not).

I'd only refi if you can knock a percentage point off your current
interest rate or would be going to a shorter loan, for example from
30yr to 15yr. The point is to run the numbers and if you will be
paying less interest over the life of the loan, including all costs
such as the refi costs, then do it.

But expect the process to take up to one year and pay about $1000.
Here in NY you need a new appraisal, title insurance, title search,
blah, blah blah. When we did our refi, BOA told us we needed an
attorney - I told them to go to hell, and quit making stuff up. They
backed off. So don't let people talk you into unneeded services and
fees - they usually don't know what they're talking about.

Oh, and home insurance is a scam. Every year we have to go to a
different company to get their teaser "first year" rate. The next year
when the rate skyrockets (for no reason) we go to a different company.
What fun!

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Aug 23 2010 5:36 am
From: George

On 8/23/2010 8:37 AM, Napoleon wrote:
> On Sat, 21 Aug 2010 20:14:00 -0500, Vic Smith
> <thismailautodeleted@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> Watch out for incompetence and sharks. Always.
>
> That'd be everyone on the planet. In any financial transaction someone
> is trying to get some money out of you (earned or not).
>
> I'd only refi if you can knock a percentage point off your current
> interest rate or would be going to a shorter loan, for example from
> 30yr to 15yr. The point is to run the numbers and if you will be
> paying less interest over the life of the loan, including all costs
> such as the refi costs, then do it.
>
> But expect the process to take up to one year and pay about $1000.
> Here in NY you need a new appraisal, title insurance, title search,
> blah, blah blah. When we did our refi, BOA told us we needed an
> attorney - I told them to go to hell, and quit making stuff up. They
> backed off. So don't let people talk you into unneeded services and
> fees - they usually don't know what they're talking about.
>
> Oh, and home insurance is a scam. Every year we have to go to a
> different company to get their teaser "first year" rate. The next year
> when the rate skyrockets (for no reason) we go to a different company.
> What fun!

My observation is you will always get the best long term deal from
companies who don't spend a fortune in advertising telling you how good
they are. As you described they are famous for giving a low ball quote
and then trying to make it up and more the next year by declaring some
conditions have changed etc.

One day we were at a show and a a local agent had a table set up. They
were selling Erie insurance. I never heard of Erie so out of curiosity I
asked for a quote. It is sold by agents only. I scanned our homeowners
and auto policies and blacked out the cost and emailed them to him. A
few hours later he emailed back a quote which was lower than what we
were currently paying. I asked the agent about if Erie was like the
others who told you how good they are and then raised the rate big time
after the first year and he said no. He said they don't do much
advertising and are a decent company. It is now three years later and he
was right.

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TOPIC: Public Service Announcement
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/8daf848156414c30?hl=en
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== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Mon, Aug 23 2010 5:14 am
From: "Lou"

"Derald" <derald@invalid.net> wrote in message
news:3bednUZrBrEMYuzRnZ2dnUVZ_q6dnZ2d@earthlink.com...
>
> Aww... get real. Reforestation is far too reasonable. Surely, you
> recognize that, after wife-beating, deforestation is Mankind's oldest
> legacy (been going at it for 10,000 years and in the "new" world for a
> few hundred -- just getting started good) and desertification our oldest
> and, so far, longest-lasting artifact (think "Sumaria", "Mesopotamia",
> or "North Africa").

I don't know about Sumaria or Mespotamia, but North Africa has repeatedly
swung between lush landscapes and harsh desert conditions over the last half
million years with each cycle taking about 25,000 years. The present phase
of desert started something on the order of 6,000 years ago, and despite all
the stuff you hear about how humans are destroying the planet, appears to be
just the latest swing of a perfectly natural cycle.

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Mon, Aug 23 2010 6:14 am
From: Bill Gill

On 8/23/2010 12:56 AM, Derald wrote:
Do you know how one determines _when_
> to replace a detector's sensor or the detector? IIRC the instructions
> with mine indicate the sensor to have a finite but indeterminate life
> span regardless of whether the unit is in service but I don't recall it
> offering the slightest clue how to determine when to begin expecting the
> unit to fail or how to determine whether it has. Maybe I should read the
> instructions again?
>>

I did some research* a while back on how long a CO detector lasts.
I finally found a place that said they last about 5 years, so we
need to replace all our CO monitors about every 5 years. I found
this just after I bought a combined CO/Smoke detector. That means
that in 5 years I get to throw away a probably perfectly good
smoke detector because the CO detector is at end of life. Keep
that in mind when you go shopping for CO monitors.

* Searching the internet does count as research doesn't it?

Bill

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Mon, Aug 23 2010 9:06 am
From: Derald

"Lou" <lpogoda@hotmail.com> wrote:

>The present phase
>of desert started something on the order of 6,000 years ago, and despite all
>the stuff you hear about how humans are destroying the planet, appears to be
>just the latest swing of a perfectly natural cycle.
Truth is, I agree with you. It seems far more likely that human
beings are subject to such cycles than being the creator of them. The
current hysteria over the impending climate "catastrophe" leaves me, um,
cold. I take serious issue with the "crown of creation" nitwits who
attribute every climatic anomaly to human activity and the consequences
thereof inherently "bad" but, unfortunately, the subject has devolved
from science to soap opera-ish politics. The planet will remain and the
climate will still cycle until Earth falls into the sun; the presence or
absence of human beings, it seems to me, is irrelevent. Despite the
assertions of religionists and hippie mystics, there is no emperical
reason to believe the planet to have been put here for our benefit nor
we for its but superstition is a powerful thing.
AFAIK, there remains much "chicken or egg" discussion of the
coincidence of the collapse of certain "ancient" civilations and
desertification. I remember reading (but it has been about thirty-five
years, now that I think about it) some serious treateses on the
contribution of Sumeria (generally regarded as the "first" actual city)
to its on downfall through deforestation coupled with the agricultural
practices of the day. However, it is fair to say that the subject was
rife with supposition and conclusions based on inadequate, maybe
nonexistent, data. Gee, things really don't change, do they?
I don't think, however, that any doubt remains about the
deforestation of Europe and of North America: We did it. The Romans
started it and, now, all that remains of that forest is a small remnant
in Eastern Europe/Central Asia that is home to a few unique animal
species that live only there.
Of course, the practice continues in North America. The King's
Survey, of which George Washington was famously a part, resulted in the
virtual clearcutting of Eastern forests in mile-wide swaths and today
only 5% of them remain. In the present day, essentially no part of US
east of the Mississippi has not been logged. Hell, my paternal cracker
grandpappy made the majority of his living, in the late 19th and early
20th centuries, sawing the remainder of the Southern pine forest into
boards with a portable sawmill driven by a steam-powered tractor.
In my view, OP is correct: The cheapest as well as the most
effective way to slow atmospheric degradation, to moderate temperature
shifts and (most importantly, in my view) to stabilize rainfall patterns
is to plant trees; plant native trees into a diverse community forest,
if possible. The current commercial practice of large-scale tree
monocropping is no different than any other large-scale monocropping and
can't be viewed as "reforestation", IMO, because it does nothing to
restore habitat for the myriad other animals and plants that (used to)
live there. Alternatively, we might consider making clear-cutting a
capital offense and restrict harvesting to select "approved" trees at
approximately 100-year intervals. Otherwise, we're playing a losing
hand. Of course, it is understood that the approval committee should be
comprised of political sycophants and ideologic intellectuals with
absolutely no forestry or agriculture experience.
--
Hijacked the hell out of this thread, eh?
Derald

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Mon, Aug 23 2010 10:28 am
From: Derald

Bill Gill <billnews2@cox.net> wrote:

>That means
>that in 5 years I get to throw away a probably perfectly good
>smoke detector because the CO detector is at end of life. Keep
>that in mind when you go shopping for CO monitors.
Thanks for that. I use one high-end CO monitor/alarm as well as
another handy-homeowner CO alarm that responds to dangerous levels. I
heat almost exclusively with a woodburning heater (I'm in peninsular FL,
so it ain't no big thing) that, although it receives its combustion air
from the outside, is physically _in_ an induced draft which can be
->extremely dangerous<- if the stove's internal pressure goes relatively
positive (it happens) for any significant length of time. DO NOT TRY
THIS AT HOME unless you're an old fart that Robert McNamara and Lyin'
Lyndon could not kill.
The monitor is located directly in the heated air delivery stream.
It reads to very low levels, starts a digital display at 10ppm and
alarms at the low end of potentially hazardous levels. A time function
helps to reduce the number of false alarms from transients. I still get
"false" alerts but, believe me, I don't mind, at all. The other alarm
is located about halfway between that point and our sleeping room. I
want that sucker to alarm _before_ a "situation" develops!
--
Derald

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TOPIC: Recipe
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/bee787c21b294613?hl=en
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== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Aug 23 2010 5:16 am
From: "Lou"

"MAS" <mas@bbbb.net> wrote in message news:i4sfjh$q08$1@news.datemas.de...
>I don't bake much. As a matter of fact, the kitchen is foreign territory.
>When an oatmeal cookie recipe calls for 2 cups of oatmeal, does it mean
>quick cooking oats or regular oats? If it calls for chocolate chips, do I
>use unsweetened or sweetened? Muchos gracias.

The oatmeal probably doesn't make much difference. The chips, I'd use
semi-sweet. But if you can't tell from the recipe, I'd use another recipe.

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Aug 23 2010 10:31 am
From: The Real Bev

On 08/23/10 05:16, Lou wrote:

> "MAS"<mas@bbbb.net> wrote in message news:i4sfjh$q08$1@news.datemas.de...
>>I don't bake much. As a matter of fact, the kitchen is foreign territory.
>>When an oatmeal cookie recipe calls for 2 cups of oatmeal, does it mean
>>quick cooking oats or regular oats? If it calls for chocolate chips, do I
>>use unsweetened or sweetened? Muchos gracias.
>
> The oatmeal probably doesn't make much difference. The chips, I'd use
> semi-sweet. But if you can't tell from the recipe, I'd use another recipe.

BLASPHEMY! It just hit me that the discussion involves putting
chocolate chips in oatmeal cookies. WRONGWRONGWRONG! You put raisins
and walnuts in oatmeal cookies, and you follow the recipe on the Quaker
package. NEVER chocolate chips.

Chocolate chip cookies are completely different and should NOT be made
with oatmeal. I think I'd use semi-sweet chocolate AND toasted almonds
in CC cookies.

--
Cheers, Bev
=========================================
"Welcome to Hell, here's your accordion."

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Aug 23 2010 11:41 am
From: Derald

The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> wrote:

>BLASPHEMY! It just hit me that the discussion involves putting
>chocolate chips in oatmeal cookies. WRONGWRONGWRONG! You put raisins
>and walnuts in oatmeal cookies, and you follow the recipe on the Quaker
>package. NEVER chocolate chips.
>
>Chocolate chip cookies are completely different and should NOT be made
>with oatmeal. I think I'd use semi-sweet chocolate AND toasted almonds
>in CC cookies.
Thank you for that. I thought I was the only one mystified.
Although, I do have some questions about the almonds....
--
Derald

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TOPIC: Vach.Constantine Watch ,Romain Jerome Titanic-Dna Watchwholesale <free
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http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/c34bede1acfe759f?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Aug 23 2010 6:47 am
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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Is the Ticket to Heaven based on Points or Influence?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/1b5959b5b2adcf6f?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Mon, Aug 23 2010 6:49 am
From: "His Highness the TibetanMonkey, Creator of the Movement of Tantra-
Hammock"

(We know full well that if weren't for certain "irregularities," we --
cyclists and users of public transportation-- would have a clear path
to Heaven. But, things being as they are, the driver of the SUV may
make it and we won't. Life up there is as cruel as down here)

If it is based on points, probably the poor score better. They are
closer to the life of Jesus. But if it's based on influence, then the
rich have the better chance. They give more to the church and probably
can get a better recommendation from the priest.

I'd expect some angels who do the paperwork be a little corrupt and
thus allow entrance to some who don't deserve it. Needless to say, I
expect a lot of favoritism on the part of God of what religion gets
through and what won't, thus some better people who belong to the
wrong religion won't make it.

In other words, that it sounds like a lot of bureaucracy.

---------------------------------------------------

THE WISE TIBETAN MONKEY SAYS

"The Tree of Knowledge is a mango tree I found in my backyard"

http://webspawner.com/users/BANANAREVOLUTION

http://webspawner.com/users/MASTURBATIONFORPEACE

http://webspawner.com/users/BIKEFORPEACE

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Mon, Aug 23 2010 9:41 am
From: "Edward Dolan"

"His Highness the TibetanMonkey, Creator of the Movement of Tantra-Hammock"
<nolionnoproblem@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:7d9f5abc-821f-4399-8b6f-f4005fbcbb25@y11g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
> (We know full well that if weren't for certain "irregularities," we --
> cyclists and users of public transportation-- would have a clear path
> to Heaven. But, things being as they are, the driver of the SUV may
> make it and we won't. Life up there is as cruel as down here)
>
> If it is based on points, probably the poor score better. They are
> closer to the life of Jesus. But if it's based on influence, then the
> rich have the better chance. They give more to the church and probably
> can get a better recommendation from the priest.
>
> I'd expect some angels who do the paperwork be a little corrupt and
> thus allow entrance to some who don't deserve it. Needless to say, I
> expect a lot of favoritism on the part of God of what religion gets
> through and what won't, thus some better people who belong to the
> wrong religion won't make it.
>
> In other words, that it sounds like a lot of bureaucracy.

TM is a poor crazy bastard who just posts on his one favorite subject -
hatred of motor vehicles because they interfere with his use of the roads.
His other favorite subject is attacking Christianity. If you respond to this
poor crazy bastard, then you are a poor crazy bastard too.

He likes to reference monkeys and other wild animals normally found only in
zoos because he is most likely a wild beast himself. I think he fornicates
with monkeys, but I can't prove it.

TM should confine himself to just one thread instead of proliferating them
like a poor crazy bastard. He is insane of course. I liken him to the
village idiot of olden times. The difference these days is that no one any
longer recognizes the village idiot because idiocy has become so widespread.

But I will be here to remind one and all of what a poor crazy bastard TM is.
It is mark of My Greatness that I can still recognize the village idiot even
if the rest of you can't.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Mon, Aug 23 2010 10:18 am
From: Cindy Hamilton

On Aug 23, 12:41 pm, "Edward Dolan" <edo...@iw.net> wrote:
> "His Highness the TibetanMonkey, Creator of the Movement of Tantra-Hammock"<nolionnoprob...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:7d9f5abc-821f-4399-8b6f-f4005fbcbb25@y11g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > (We know full well that if weren't for certain "irregularities," we --
> > cyclists and users of public transportation-- would have a clear path
> > to Heaven. But, things being as they are, the driver of the SUV may
> > make it and we won't. Life up there is as cruel as down here)
>
> > If it is based on points, probably the poor score better. They are
> > closer to the life of Jesus. But if it's based on influence, then the
> > rich have the better chance. They give more to the church and probably
> > can get a better recommendation from the priest.
>
> > I'd expect some angels who do the paperwork be a little corrupt and
> > thus allow entrance to some who don't deserve it. Needless to say, I
> > expect a lot of favoritism on the part of God of what religion gets
> > through and what won't, thus some better people who belong to the
> > wrong religion won't make it.
>
> > In other words, that it sounds like a lot of bureaucracy.
>
> TM is a poor crazy bastard who just posts on his one favorite subject -
> hatred of motor vehicles because they interfere with his use of the roads.

Ironically, if it weren't for cars, there wouldn't be good roads for
him
to ride on.

> His other favorite subject is attacking Christianity. If you respond to this
> poor crazy bastard, then you are a poor crazy bastard too.

Yet you replied to him. And I'm replying to you.

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Mon, Aug 23 2010 2:04 pm
From: "His Highness the TibetanMonkey, Creator of the Movement of Tantra-
Hammock & the Stationary Bicycle to burn the calories"

On Aug 23, 10:18 am, Cindy Hamilton <angelicapagane...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
> On Aug 23, 12:41 pm, "Edward Dolan" <edo...@iw.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > "His Highness the TibetanMonkey, Creator of the Movement of Tantra-Hammock"<nolionnoprob...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> >news:7d9f5abc-821f-4399-8b6f-f4005fbcbb25@y11g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
>
> > > (We know full well that if weren't for certain "irregularities," we --
> > > cyclists and users of public transportation-- would have a clear path
> > > to Heaven. But, things being as they are, the driver of the SUV may
> > > make it and we won't. Life up there is as cruel as down here)
>
> > > If it is based on points, probably the poor score better. They are
> > > closer to the life of Jesus. But if it's based on influence, then the
> > > rich have the better chance. They give more to the church and probably
> > > can get a better recommendation from the priest.
>
> > > I'd expect some angels who do the paperwork be a little corrupt and
> > > thus allow entrance to some who don't deserve it. Needless to say, I
> > > expect a lot of favoritism on the part of God of what religion gets
> > > through and what won't, thus some better people who belong to the
> > > wrong religion won't make it.
>
> > > In other words, that it sounds like a lot of bureaucracy.
>
> > TM is a poor crazy bastard who just posts on his one favorite subject -
> > hatred of motor vehicles because they interfere with his use of the roads.
>
> Ironically, if it weren't for cars, there wouldn't be good roads for
> him
> to ride on.

It seems very few Americans are taking advantage of it (some .4%
commute by bike) while we should be kissing the ass of pedestrians who
are so kind to lend us their sidewalk --or simply got no choice.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Kosher Nostra Scam
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/916273292cd037a0?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Aug 23 2010 6:59 am
From:

"walt tonne" <tonnewalt487@gmail.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:79f1be67-ee34-4ac3-a101-fe81f7fc5735@x21g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
> http://www.aztlan.net/koshernostra.htm
>
> Amazing that this scam is still operating. Start looking while you
> shop.

Cheney, no to AntiChrists from Israel !

No to Catholic persons, while reigns a secret AntiChtist Alliance
Vatican-Israel !

Boy, Girl, don't vote Jews or Catholic priests, or persons close or united
them !

Jews and Catholic person are working making JOBless ?

Sure !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
================================================

THE ECONOMICAL AND MILITARY CRISIS OF USA

((((( IS IMPOSSIBLE TO SOLVE IT, WITHOUT USING BOMBS )))))

IS THIS, the good ISRAEL's strategy plot ?

==================================================
1° Step of a good plot)
About September 13-15 2001, in Rome, Romano De Simone was talking with
Vittorio Halfon, High Level Jew of international influence, agent of
Israel.
"Your opinion was correct, Romano, were the our AGENTS in NYC
(The WTC's Authors). They are geniuses. Few thousands of dead, for
making many millions dollars, accusing Arabs. Wall Street collapses,
but they it rayse up again."

2° Step of a good plot)
Spreading in hole US the Subprime Loans, and ROBBING the inventions,
this is the SPRINGS OF THE prosperity of America, inclusive SPALIC of

Romano De Simone (www.spalic.com), having dozens utilizations,
from the sanitary until spatial fields.

3° Step of a good plot)
Withdrawing of 500 billion dollars from the US's banks during 2 hours,
at September, 18 2008, for sparking off a global economical crisis
against American Workers, and dominating worldwide.

=================================================
=================================================

With the 11 September 2001, for the first time in the history, a
militar attack BY A LOT OF BOMB, had become a film.

How all the world it has been able to see, the tele-camera to take back the

scene, did'nt be trotting, as when it happens an unexpected event, but
were

well supported on the ground, waiting to arrival of the airplanes, of which

were AWARE only the organizers of the attack, and no-one else on the
world.

But who were these art directors, very very special?

On signaling of a lady, that had seen three men shooting the scene, very
happy

and smiling and for nothing shocked, from a white van, of which she had

taken the plate, the police has verified that:

1) The van was property of an Israeli company : the "Urban Moving System".

2) After detained the van many hours after, had halted the police five mens
among the 22 and the 27 years, which one had in pocket 4700 dollars, that
were able be only the remuneration of the film.

3) The driver of the van was such Sivan Kurzberg, and the other were Paul
Kurzberg, Yaron Samuel, Oded Ellner and Omer Marmari, who resulted all
Israeli citizens.

4) The Jewish daily paper of New York has brought that two mens of them, in
accordance with the FBI, were agents of the Israeli intelligence.

The URBAN MOVING SYSTEM company, owner of the van, it is resulted of
ownership of the Israel state.

The administrator of the URBAN MOVING SYSTEM company, Dominick Otto Suter,
year 1970, whose Social Security Number is 129-78-0926, he escaped in Israel
the same day 11-September-2001.

Three months after the attack at two towers, a troupe of the television net
ABC has shot inside the offices of the URBAN MOVING SYSTEM
company: they appeared deserted in a great hurry, even with objects of
ownership of the customers of company.

The URBAN MOVING SYSTEM company were missing.
It's possible to conclude saying that the responsibility of the attacks at
two towers are not of the Israel government ?.
========================================
========================================

THE COINCIDENCES:
The two falling towers, have been filmed exclusively by hebrews from Israel.
The boss of this group has escaped in Israel, the same day 11 septembers
2001.

The two towers belong to an Hebrew, that had to it demolish, for cause of
asbestos that there was contained.

The unique world organizations, which having the fit structures to organize
this attack, are the freemasonries, which are by exclusively control of
hebrews.

The americans, Jewish and not, at this stage, have the investigating duty,
the going out from the generic and unproved accusations, of terrorism from
Arabic matrix.

A Bin Laden that himself accused, it shows absolutely nothing : he has been
paid to do it.

He has been paid to do spread a planetary war, of America against the arabs,
that serves only to ISRAEL, as the Iraq war.

STRUCK ROMANO DE SIMONE , only because they want STRUCKING any
inventor working for AMERICA = THEY WANT CLOSE ALLLLL SPRINGS of
technolgy and PROSPERITY OF AMERICA.

THEY WANT THE REIGN OF ZIONIST DREAM OVER THE GLOBE.
============================================================

QUESTIONS
How to be possible you believe to a Bin Laden, only because himself accuses,
while the organizers are able to be only the Israeli ART-DIRECTORS
fortuitously discovered, by the police, or their friends ?

Nobody can exclude that Bin Laden is one of this friends of Israel !

NOBODY CAN EXCLUDE BIN LADEN IS UNDER THE MOSSAD'S STRATEGY !!!!!!

Why nobody have the valor to asking the necessary investigating
on Israel and his friends ?

How to be possible it you mines two towers, with thousands of kilos of
explosive, without the helping of owner of two towers ?

WHY THE HALTED ISRAELIS WERE AS HAPPY,
WHILE THEY WERE SEING TO EXPLODE AND COLLAPSE
THE W-T-C TWO TOWERS ?

It needs verify if such they happiness, documented by they-self,
with the photos that they same have done, was connected to the
fact that THEIR WORK HAD MADE VERY WELL, as from same excellent engineers.

PERHAPS TRANSPORTING THE EXPLOSIVE MATERIAL WITH THEIR MINIBUS:
what heavy work !!!!.

In such case they deserves the engineering degree, "ONORIS CAUSA".
=====================================================
But they can ever demonstrate that all these technical conclusions
are false,
and the clear truth is all other things, THE DEAR BOYS !!!

THE ISRAELI BOYS SURELY WILL GIVE AMPLE EXPLICATIONS,
ABOUT THEIR COMPLETE INNOCENCE !!!

Dr. Eng. Romano De Simone,
Consultant of Appeal Court of ROME and
INVENTOR of SPALIC ( www.spalic.com )

SPALIC, COPIED BY

Bionomic Industries Inc, from NJ
FBI, where are you ?

Italian Mechanical Engineer of 64 - ROME - ITALY
+39-339-6109258

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Aug 23 2010 7:35 am
From: tmclone

On Aug 23, 9:59 am, <Cice...@fastwebnet.it> wrote:
Snipped the insane drivel...and I thought the monkey brain was the
most insane person on the planet. Wow. Just wow. Get some help.
Seriously.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Let's stop talking about God and let's talk about solutions
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/7e6a608c53ef95ca?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Aug 23 2010 7:17 am
From: "His Highness the TibetanMonkey, Creator of the Movement of Tantra-
Hammock & the Stationary Bicycle to burn the calories"

On Aug 22, 5:01 pm, Day Brown <dayhbr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 08/22/2010 08:38 AM, His Highness the TibetanMonkey, Creator of the> Bombardier is not exactly a golf cart...
>
> >http://personal.atl.bellsouth.net/t/r/troprent/ford.htm
>
> > They are FRIENDLY COMMUNITY VEHICLES not intimidating GATED COMMUNITY
> > SUV'S.
>
> Looks good to me. setup a high speed rail system to carry them to the
> urban core just 10 minutes ahead of freeway traffic, and people would
> trade in the SUV, and find parking easier and/or cheaper as well.
>
> 25 mph is plenty for the urban cores, which because of the jammed
> traffic, dont move any faster than they did nearly 100 years ago.

That's right. They are technically legal in Florida, but the Law of
the Jungle (intimidation) takes care of them.

The minute I let loose my Quaker Parrot (medium size), my parakeets go
scrambling. She only wants to play with them, but never mind.

I wonder what would happen if I bought one and challenged the status
quo.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: ADULT SEX GALLERY
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/8b5c0360b8ee3614?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Aug 23 2010 8:07 am
From: guru datta

FOR NEED GOOD INSURANCE

http://lowpremiumtermplans.blogspot.com

HOW TO SAVE WATER

http://savewaterinworld.blogspot.com

FOR HOT PHOTOS &VIDEOS

http://hotvideosee.blogspot.com/

HOT HEROINES PHOTOS

http://hotheroinesphoto.blogspot.com

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Cycling Copenhagen through American eyes
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/t/85edac9c2ebe5d06?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Aug 23 2010 8:24 am
From: Peter Cole

Frank Studt wrote:
> Am 16.08.2010 16:36, schrieb Peter Cole:
>> Frank Studt wrote:

>>> Nope, the reality of travel mode choice is complicated.
>>
>> Perhaps for you, not for me. If I'm in a hurry, I take the street, if
>> not I take a track (if there's one). I like having choices.
>>

> You are confusing travel mode choice with route choice.

I stand corrected. Let me amend. If I'm in an even bigger hurry, I'll drive.

> Road safety is a big issue and its the number one reason (surveys) for
> people to use segregated facilities.

Yes, but as I said, people (most) aren't statisticians. Perceived safety
is a preference, but so is a pleasant immediate environment.

> The most facilities I know dont meet any guidelines regarding width etc.
> and many of them are mandatory. And even the lawful built facilities
> worsen safety (ok you dont care so much about safety). I have enough of
> that shit.

Bad facilities are bad (unsafe), no one is saying otherwise.

>> Believing that
>> motorists can be calmed through education or enforcement is unrealistic.
>> It's not like it hasn't been tried.
>>
> Thats not really true. The positive road safety effects of Speed limits
> and there enforcement for instance have been proven all around the
> world. Traffic laws have become more severe in the last decades of
> course there is much to be done.

This seems much more true outside of the US. In the US there is strong
resistance to traffic calming and heightened enforcement (cameras, etc.).

>>>> People want "pleasant". That's a subjective mix of convenience,
>>>> perceived safety, aesthetics and social interaction.

>
> Im just asking for some kind of empirical proof for you claims (survey).

How about:
http://www.dot.state.fl.us/safety/ped_bike/brochures/pdf/Bike%20&%20Ped%20Survey%20-%20Final%20Report,%20w.%20Appendices%201-8.pdf

> Again you are talking about route choice and not travel mode choice. Or
> do I have to explain what "travel mode choice" means?

No, but the 2 are related. Here's an article that discusses mode share
and its complications:

http://carbon.ucdenver.edu/~kkrizek/pdfs/Analyzing_effect.pdf

"The evidence here suggests that bicycle facilities significantly
impacted levels of bicycle commuting. In the aggregate, areas closer
to new bicycle facilities showed more of an increase in bicycle mode
share than areas farther away..."

>>>>> Very much liked the essay of Dave Horton (Fear of Cycling), especially
>>>>> the part about the building of segregated facilities an there role in
>>>>> making cycling dangerous in the public opinion.

>> The article author did say:
>>
>> "3. I agree, many people (understandably, given a fear of cycling)
>> prefer to cycle away from motorized traffic. I agree, we should provide
>> these kinds of facilities, as seen in Dk and the NLs. Such facilities
>> promote cycling."

> I think the author is either very diplomatic or he does not think his
> own argument to the end. Anyway this point is contradicting the message
> of his essay. I wanted to write him my self when I read it maybe I will do.

Perhaps he's just more moderate and pragmatic in his thinking.

> In Germany we have a saying "Angst ist ein schlechter Ratgeber" in
> English "Fear is a bad counsellor". It refers to the high rate of
> irrationality associated with fear. Bicycle Advocates should not make
> this irrationality their on and demand facilitation.

And yet highly facilitated Germany is 10x safer than the US.

Correlation is not causality, I know, and there are many other
differences between the 2 countries, but still....

>> Again, insults aside, I think you are exaggerating the safety issues.
>
>
> Not really. Cycling and safety or road safetysis a big issue. In Some
> states even helmets are mandatory (the hole helmet discussion is a
> safety discussion). So your nice facilities might not only worsen your
> safety it might also bring you mandatory helmet laws.

I would love to achieve the safety record of Germany.

> And the differences between the safety of cyclists are very high.
> Especially somebody in the US should be alarmed about the building of
> unsafe facilities cause you allready have the highest risk of fatality
> per miles traveld in the western world (about 7 times higher then in
> Germany). In Germany and Western Europe the discussion about segregated
> facilities have always been a discussion about the safety of cyclists.
> Its even part of the German traffic code that the mandatory facilities
> are explicitly bound on the claim they have positive safety.

I would repeat my above comment.

> Its pretty certain, we have seen that even under the circumstances of a
> high safety in numbers effect the safety of cyclists is worsened by
> segregation.

I disagree. I haven't seen conclusive proof of that at all.

>>> The tendency of the studies regarding safety effects of cycling
>>> infrastructure is pretty clear.
>>
>> No, they're all over the map.
>
> You are dreaming.

No. You yourself have cited studies showing a high risk (5-10x) and a
low (1.1x). The lower one is more recent and seems better controlled,
but you discount it.

>> Again, people choose additional risk all the time. It's not the
>> overriding concern. You are attempting to portray in black and white an
>> issue with many shades of gray.
>
>
> Of course people choose risk for them self and sometimes for there kids
> on purpose. But this is not what happens when they use segregated
> facilities. Most people will explicitly tell you they use them cause
> they are much safer and for the same reason they demand them to be
> built... Your situation in the US might be different (would surprise me
> and as far as I have seen the discussion about facilities in the USis
> highly associated with safety).

I agree that most facilities, as implemented with best practices, may
introduce additional hazards. The questions are the degree of those
hazards, and whether those hazards could be further mitigated by design
and/or education. I also don't think it an unreasonable approach to
consider overall mortality, not just cycling mortality in isolation.

> Try this one:
>
> http://www.cyclecraft.co.uk/digest/research.html

Again, the results are all over the map.

Just to cite one of the papers, on cycling in Helsinki, accident rates
were found to be a bit higher for lanes, but much lower for paths (45%
of mileage and 56% of the accidents, and 26%/8%, respectively). Hardly a
slam dunk argument against facilities, with "vehicular"/road cycling at
23%/23%.

>> If there are no alternate routes (to facilities), I could see your
>> point, but speaking to urban riding in the US, it's hard to visualize
>> such a situation. There are simply so many routes in the urban grid that
>> the choices are plenty. I can't speak about Germany, and I don't
>> particularly care about rural and suburban cycling (in this context).
>
>
> Some times there are alternatives but the good routes are highly
> facilitated. You would love it.

I might. I would certainly love to achieve Germany's modal share and
safety statistics. More importantly, perhaps older and younger cyclists
and female cyclists might like it much more.

> In general its a question how you measure or compare the safety of
> different activities. But I think for the US it doesnt make any
> difference how you measure or compare, cycling would not look that good.
> You have helmet laws in some states and want to tell me safety is no
> issue...

I'm not saying safety is no issue. I'm saying that cycling is dismally
low in the US, and I'm most interested in improving that. Hopefully, the
"safety in numbers" effect all by itself would dramatically improve the
degree of hazard.

>> I don't find the "discrimination" argument compelling, except in the
>> "mandatory use" statutes. Where ample alternate routes exist, I just
>> don't see the case at all. That describes my reality (US urban). If
>> there's any discrimination, it's denying facilities to those who prefer
>> them and contribute to infrastructure costs via taxes.
>>
>
> There is already infrastructure its called the road. As stated above
> cycle lanes are kind of mandatory by principle and car drivers are
> trying to sanction you for defections. Regarding cycle path its almost
> the same. Till 1997 every facility in Germany was mandatory and a lot of
> people still think they are and behave like it. Its a little complicated
> subject and difficult to explain. But if there are facilitated routes
> you lose your right to the road belief me or not.

Where I am, when bike lanes are installed, it is motorists who lose a
part of the road. There is already a law on the books (US universal
vehicle code) which states that cyclists must remain as "far right as
practicable". This is a vaguely worded law that most cops and motorists
(and usually cyclists) interpret as just "stay out of the way" of
motorists. Any change from this deplorable state of affairs would seem
an improvement. As far as "driver sanctions" go, I think the battle has
been long lost in the US. It can only improve from here.

>>> In Countries like DK and NL there is a pretty large safety in numbers
>>> effect working in favor of cyclists. So the negative safety effects of
>>> segregation tend to be smaller cause everybody is allways expecting
>>> cyclists. In Germany we dont have that and in the US it is far worse.
>>
>> That's not what I've seen in places like Portland, OR.
>
> What? There is no safety in numbers effect in Portland?

Yes, apparently there is, that's my point. So the US need not be
different from DK & NL.

> I see the reality in Germany I dont want them, even the "best" are worse
> than no lane no point to argue.

Your's doesn't seem to be the majority opinion, in DK or US.

>>>>Vehicular cycling has been the dominant paradigm for
>>>> decades, with little to show for it.
>>>
>>>
>>> They came up with pretty good advice how to ride safe in mixed traffic
>>> that's not bad.
>>
>> Sure, if they stopped there and didn't tack on the ideology.
>>
>
> You call it ideology, but finding measures to ride safe in a car
> dominated society is pure pragmatism for me. That they dont want
> facilities its only natural not ideologues.

"Natural" for some perhaps, but apparently not most.

>>>> Finally, vehicular cycling
>>>> ideologues are being pushed out
>>>
>>>
>>> Pushed out where?
>>
>> Boston, Dallas, etc.
>
>
> I think you are confusing cause and effect.

I'm not sure what you mean. Perhaps you're just not familiar with the
stories:

http://www.dallasobserver.com/2009-11-26/news/dallas-former-bike-czar-tells-newbie-riders-to-go-play-in-traffic/1/

"And in 2006, he had the last bicycle lane in the city ripped out.
Dallas, under his vision, was becoming a dream city for "vehicular
cycling.""

"In 2008, Bicycling magazine rated the city as the country's worst place
to ride a bicycle—not exactly the sort of publicity you're looking for
when your job title is bike coordinator."

"In 2005, desperate to inspire the Dallas bicycle advocacy community,
Summer launched "Cycle Dallas," a personal blog to promote vehicular
cycling as the best way to ride. It wouldn't be long before the city
officials discovered the blog and realized that a city employee was
sculpting policy based on personal belief, not popular positions."

"In November 2008, Summer was removed from his position as bicycle
coordinator and transferred to another department. A month later, the
city pledged to support and partially finance a $300,000 plan to
overhaul the old bike plan. Bike lanes would get a second chance in Dallas."

"They consider Boston a prime example of what they see as the league's
wrong-headedness. For many years, a vehicular cyclist was the bicycle
coordinator there until Bicycling magazine rated Boston as the nation's
worst city for cycling. The old bike coordinator was replaced in 2007,
and the city immediately installed five miles of bicycle lanes and
pledged to build more. Boston moved off the worst list, and Dallas took
its place in 2008."

>> No, ad hominem aside, I'm aware of "Effective Cycling" curricula and
>> courses. It is useful stuff, orthogonal to the facilities debate (or
>> should be). It hasn't trained a whole lot of cyclists in the US, however.
>>
>
> You would have less fatalities if every kid (and grown up) would be
> trained in effective cycling

Yes,

> and people wouldn't fear motorized traffic
> so much they need segregation.

Maybe, but it would never make the experience pleasant.

> Its always the same. When more people start cycling the first thing they
> demand is own facilities we have been through it in Germany and other
> countries.

As I've said, I'll take Germany, gladly.

> Boston has the best
> requirements to be a bike city. Its relatively plain, it has short ways
> etc.. Cycling is supposed to be growing more or less naturally. You dont
> need your own lanes etc. you need parking facilties at work etc.. As far
> as I have seen (for Boston) the bike is highly competing with food
> travel and public transport. Give the cyclists parking places and more
> will use the bike instead of walking and using public transport, you
> might even get some motorist involved.

That's not the conclusion the majority of cyclists in Boston reached.

There's no reason Boston can't achieve the modal share of Portland.
Vehicular cycling just wasn't very persuasive (nor in Portland).

>> Sweeping generalizations aside, I can't speak for the entire US, but I
>> live in a small city (90,000) 6 miles from downtown Boston (600,000). My
>> family lives perhaps 75% car-free, and does a lot of utility and
>> recreational cycling (often combining the two). We frequently use a
>> segregated bike path (despite 2 extra miles) to get to the city. It's a
>> typical early generation path (constructed in the 60's) with all the
>> usual drawbacks -- crappy surface, dangerous intersections,
>> undisciplined users, etc., but we generally prefer it simply because
>> it's more pleasant than the (abundant) alternatives. Since the path
>> isn't consistently plowed (and never sanded) we simply use studded tires
>> in the winter.
>>
>> Our lifestyle isn't common, but it's not particularly difficult, either.
>
>
> For the greater Boston area.

And many other locales in the US, including many cities with much higher
cycling modal share than Boston's measly 1.5%.

> You are partly right but your argument does not justify the exclusion of
> any kind of universal vehicle code. And I dont think you can blame it on
> the vehicularists that the law is enforced.

I think I can, There have been 2 examples: the City of Cambridge (MA)
where advocates insisted on (& got) "crackdowns" on "scofflaw" cyclists.
The cops were only too happy to comply. At the state level, a "same
roads, same rules" law was passed, increasing the fines for bicycle
infractions significantly. Again, the work of the "vehicular" advocates.

>> "Predictability of behavior" raises motorist speeds. Urban motor traffic
>> is generally characterized by a high ratio of peak to average speeds --
>> bad news for cyclists and pedestrians, and of no real advantage to
>> motorists. I think "predictability of behavior" should be deliberately
>> and significantly reduced.
>
>
> You are partly right here and I might have chosen the wrong words. I
> mostly meant visibility (of course in situations of making a turn you
> should be highly predictable). I my self ad a little bit of
> unpredictability to my driving by trying appear kind of insecure
> (oscilating? more than I need to). But the point is there is an optimal
> ratio between perceived risk and real risk. A cyclist in mixed traffic
> is perceived as much more vulnerable (by riders and drivers) as an
> cyclist on cycle lane for instance. In reality its exactly reverse. The
> effect is drivers will drive faster and closer to cyclist in streets
> with lanes and riders will feel saver then they really are. So youre
> advocating for infrastructure contradicts your reducing predictability
> argument.

I don't see how motorists can drive any closer than they do now. The
whole point of segregated facilities is to gain separation. If the
facility results in closer spacing it is a failure by definition.

As to whether segregation raises speeds, I don't think that need be
true. Narrowing the roads is a typical consequence of facilities, which
drivers feel slows them down, which is why they're generally opposed.

>> Insisting on special
>> behaviors to accommodate motorists erodes our true right of way, which
>> goes back centuries. Your attitude makes you a motorist apologist.
>
>
> WTF are you talking about?
>
>
>> That's the only logical conclusion. You appear to be so brainwashed by
>> car culture that you can't think outside the box.
>>
>
> Ok, logic isnt your field of expertise.

Actually, it is (professionally).

> We are living in a car dominated
> society and traffic system and I have to deal with that for now and
> sadly at least for the next one or two decades (cause I have to
> participate in traffic). Vehicular cyclists have developed some
> principles to deal with this situation and I have found by experience
> that they are mostly right.

I agree, where facilities don't exist. VC isn't exactly new, I'm well
aware of the principles and adhere to them in the circumstances where
they are reasonable.

> If you have a need to think outside of the
> box stop babbling about the advantages bicycle infrastructure, everybody
> is doing it. Sadly my ideas and demands are to much outside of the box
> for most people. Your thinking is so deep inside the box I can hardly
> recognise it.

Your thinking is outdated and represents the real bicycle "inferiority
complex."

>> "Vehicular equivalence" is an unfortunate consequence of vehicular
>> cycling dogma. The ultimate result is that we are forced to comply with
>> rules and road engineering that were designed with motor vehicle
>> convenience as the highest priority. Queuing up with idling lines of
>> cars and trucks on a hot summer rush hour or getting sloshed with gritty
>> brine in the winter from a semi at my elbow isn't my idea of fun or
>> progress. Good luck selling that vision.
>
>
> My vision is car free cities. You misunderstood.

Don't hold your breath. In the meantime, I'll settle for "different
roads, different rules".

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Aug 23 2010 9:39 am
From: "His Highness the TibetanMonkey, Creator of the Movement of Tantra-
Hammock & the Stationary Bicycle to burn the calories"

On Aug 23, 8:24 am, Peter Cole <peter_c...@verizon.net> wrote:
> Frank Studt wrote:
> > Am 16.08.2010 16:36, schrieb Peter Cole:
> >> Frank Studt wrote:
> >>> Nope, the reality of travel mode choice is complicated.
>
> >> Perhaps for you, not for me. If I'm in a hurry, I take the street, if
> >> not I take a track (if there's one). I like having choices.
>
> > You are confusing travel mode choice with route choice.
>
> I stand corrected. Let me amend. If I'm in an even bigger hurry, I'll drive.
>
> > Road safety is a big issue and its the number one reason (surveys) for
> > people to use segregated facilities.
>
> Yes, but as I said, people (most) aren't statisticians. Perceived safety
> is a preference, but so is a pleasant immediate environment.
>
> > The most facilities I know dont meet any guidelines regarding width etc.
> > and many of them are mandatory. And even the lawful built facilities
> > worsen safety (ok you dont care so much about safety). I have enough of
> > that shit.
>
> Bad facilities are bad (unsafe), no one is saying otherwise.
>
> >> Believing that
> >> motorists can be calmed through education or enforcement is unrealistic.
> >> It's not like it hasn't been tried.
>
> > Thats not really true. The positive road safety effects of Speed limits
> > and there enforcement for instance have been proven all around the
> > world. Traffic laws have become more severe in the last decades of
> > course there is much to be done.
>
> This seems much more true outside of the US. In the US there is strong
> resistance to traffic calming and heightened enforcement (cameras, etc.).
>
> >>>> People want "pleasant". That's a subjective mix of convenience,
> >>>> perceived safety, aesthetics and social interaction.
>
> > Im just asking for some kind of empirical proof for you claims (survey).
>
> How about:http://www.dot.state.fl.us/safety/ped_bike/brochures/pdf/Bike%20&%20P...

"Respondents have high expectations for bicycling and walking
facilities that are not fully
met. 91.0% of bicyclists and 77.1% of non-bicyclists agree or strongly
agree that they
would like their area to be among the most attractive places for
walking and bicycling in the
U.S. However, 87.9% of bicyclists and 72.1% of non-bicyclists agree or
strongly agree that
they would like to live in a place where more of their daily needs can
be met through
walking and bicycling. Only 60.1% of bicyclists and 50.9% of non-
bicyclists agree or
strongly agree that their area is more attractive for bicycling and
walking than other places
that they know about. Also, 88.1% of bicyclists and 71.4% of non-
bicyclists agree or
strongly agree that they would bike and walk for exercise more if good
facilities were
conveniently located."

Thank you. Whenever I let my bigger parrot loose among the parakeets
they are terrorized. It's my own damn fault. It's parrot nature and
human nature for the big ones to scare the little ones. ;)

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== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Aug 23 2010 2:04 pm
From: rvanson

On Mon, 16 Aug 2010 07:49:20 -0500, Napoleon <anarch@666yes.net>
wrote:

>On Fri, 13 Aug 2010 15:46:44 -0400, George <george@nospam.invalid>
>wrote:
>
>>I just don't get the direction we are going in where so many people
>>don't seem to have a personal identity and feel the need to tell
>>everyone everything they do.
>
>America is gone. Fascist state. But nobody cares. Oh well.
>
>I could tell you about the new drunk driving law they passed in NY
>that requires one convicted of a DUI (even a misdeameanor) to install
>a breathalizer in the car, which will activate the horn every ten
>minutes and require the perp to pull over and breath into the thing
>again.

>Hahaha. Can you see it? On the highway a horn blows and the driver
>next to you immediately swerves into your lane to get to the shoulder
>so he can tell big brother he's sober. Does anyone else so how
>ridiculous this is and that it will only cause more accidents?
>
>Nope. Just me.

That is a dangerous law, I agree. Pulling over on a city street is one
thing. Pulling over on a 55 MPH zone is anouther.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Aug 23 2010 2:07 pm
From: rvanson

On Fri, 13 Aug 2010 10:12:16 -0700 (PDT), Cindy Hamilton
<angelicapaganelli@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Aug 13, 1:44 am, rvanson <rvan...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> There is a company called Hireright that is a huge datbase for
>> informtaion on many individuals.
>>
>> Once you are on the database your info is almost impossible to have
>> removed or altered. Welcome to the Brave New World of the USSA.
>
>However, in this case it's free enterprise compiling the database, so
>your reference to the USSA (parallel to USSR, I assume) is
>somewhat off the mark.

Does it really matter?

Do you think the FBI, the CIA and the NSA dont have databases on US
citisens as well?

Those are all government agencies like the KGB was to the USSR.

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Monday, August 23, 2010

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