Frugal Living: 25 new messages in 13 topics

misc.consumers.frugal-living
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living?hl=en

misc.consumers.frugal-living@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

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TOPIC: The Best One-Time $6 Investment You'll Ever Make!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/ab4d3339503b6174?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 12 2007 2:19 pm
From: giantebo

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For all the details:
http://www.six.giantebooks.com

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TOPIC: Welcome To FreeLife : The Himalayan Goji Company : Gained Global
Residual Online Income Opportunity Now !!!
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/3cc720b8ce2a2919?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 12 2007 2:52 pm
From: e.gateway.net@gmail.com

Hopefully everything will be OK !!!

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> I will enroll as a Mkt Exec.
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> Perhaps no SCAM !!!
>
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> wrote:
>
>
>
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> > Company : Attractive With Low Costing But Greater Income.
>
> > Method Of Payment Via Credit Card.
> > Enroll Now As : Marketing Executive with only USD39.95 + USD156.95
> > [Goji Juice Product - Approximately For 100 Points] = USD196.90 and
> > Hit Global Market Now !!!
>
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>
> > View Compensation / Marketing Plan Video Here :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGRcPADQdKc
>
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>
> > Register For FreeLife Now Here :http://worldbiz.freelife.com/redir.cfm?page=/info/Purchasing/myaccoun...
>
> > Select your country and thick "I want to become a Marketing Executive
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> > myworldbiz[at]yahoo.com
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> > Best Regardshttp://worldbiz.freelife.com/- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

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TOPIC: Woman is content living in 84-sq. ft. tiny dream home.
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/911886124117ed11?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 12 2007 3:00 pm
From: CanopyCo

On Jul 15, 5:24?pm, Just A User <k...@up-yours-spammer.net> wrote:
>
> I saw it featured on a major media channel. While this is along the idea
> of something I would like to put on my land in TX, I do think 84sq ft is
> a bit on the small side for 1 person. I have messed around with floor
> plans for small cabins and came up with a 500sq ft floor that seemed
> livable. Actually I started with about 1000sq ft and worked my way down
> to about 500. Very simple rectangular design, 1 bed, 1 bath, kitchen,
> dining / living area. Tried to keep the design /green/ I.E. solar power,
> supplemental water via rain water harvesting, composting toilet, etc.
> etc. etc. I figured I could do the whole thing for about $10k using
> recycled stuff.

A 8 x 40 foot camp model RV or conex is 320 sq. ft.
A 12 x 50 foot 2 bedroom trailer house is 600 sq. ft.
A 12 x 60 foot 3 bedroom 1 1/2 bath trailer house is 720 sq. ft.

84 sq. ft is pretty small at 8 x 10 1/2 foot RV, but I have lied in a
208 sq. ft (8 x 26 foot) RV for years at a time and it is doable, but
kind of small for comfort.
Totally self contained and movable by both large car or standard
pickup.

The idea that a person cannot live in less then 1000 sq. ft is funny
500 sq. ft is even excessive for one person.
The 320 sq. ft is actually pretty comfortable for one person.
Did that one for a few years too.
One room 8 x 30 with the bunk, stove, and kitchen along one wall. The
8 x 10 bathroom across the end.

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TOPIC: Sell phones no contracts
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/a324ec3c15e08f15?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 12 2007 3:17 pm
From: jane8816

jane8816 wrote:
> We are the Biggest losers on the internet.
>
> In addition to our spam, we can set us apart
> from everyone else out by proving email sex.
>
> mcdowellenterprizes@yahoo.com - email me for email sex.
>

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Kodak Easyshare C315 digital camera died
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/df590642031e5770?hl=en
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== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 12 2007 3:24 pm
From: Al Bundy

On Aug 12, 8:12 am, Petepeng...@webtv.net (P T) wrote:
> I have a less expensive Kodak also. If you read the reviews at Amazon,
> you find that a common complaint about Kodaks is they draw a LOT of
> power; you have to be very particular about what kind of batteries you
> use. I prefer NiMH, and even with those, sometimes the system will go
> dead just sitting for a week, turned off.
> You might want to try some different batteries. Alkaline, at a minimum.
> Maybe take them out when not in use as well.

Precisely why I changed from an HP to an "A" series Canon. Now I can
take hundreds of pictures on a set of rechargeable batteries. Even
alkaline batteries work amazingly long. It seems to defy physics the
way Canon powers the flash, the LCD, and the lens movement over such a
long time on standard AA cells.
My Kodak and the HP were about the same, heavy power users. I had
built a separate power pack with cell phone batteries to satisfy their
needs. I could go on vacation with two batteries now (with the Canon)
and still have a charge left when I got home.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 12 2007 3:54 pm
From: throwitout

On Aug 12, 9:12 am, Petepeng...@webtv.net (P T) wrote:
> I have a less expensive Kodak also. If you read the reviews at Amazon,
> you find that a common complaint about Kodaks is they draw a LOT of
> power; you have to be very particular about what kind of batteries you
> use. I prefer NiMH, and even with those, sometimes the system will go
> dead just sitting for a week, turned off.

Not the fault of the camera. If you look... well anywhere you will
find that NiMH batteries are netorious for having a hih self discharge
rate.

> You might want to try some different batteries. Alkaline, at a minimum.
> Maybe take them out when not in use as well.

If you even looked at the manual once, you'll see where it says about
45000 times "DO NOT USE ALKALINE BATTERIES!!!". Alkaline batteries
perform poorly in high power devices because the high internal
resistance makes the voltage drop anytime a high load is applied.

Ni-MH are a good choice, and for one time use, Lithium are the best.

Personally I have a couple "cheap" Kodak cameras, which have performed
quite well and get 200+ photos on a single charge of Ni-MH batteries.
I also try to minimize using the screen.

YMMV

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TOPIC: Cheap way to fix chipped windshield?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/4a367f6464847919?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 12 2007 3:37 pm
From: Al Bundy

On Aug 10, 8:59 pm, "OhioGuy" <n...@none.net> wrote:
> > Neither have been a problem for yearly inspections.
>
> There are no auto inspections for cars in Ohio, annual or otherwise. Even
> if there were, I'm sure that historical vehicles would be exempted.

Well, historical in terms of gross years old.
Jalopy in terms of condition I suppose.

I had a crack off to the lower left and kept it from moving by
applying clear silicone sealant to the outside and inside of the
glass. It would have been unsightly if not in such an out of the way
area. It never spread in 10 years. I have half dozen bull's eye chips
on the 2000 GMC purchased last year. I immediately filled them with
epoxy and shaved them when cured. They lasted all winter and summer so
far. If you want a good repair, see a pro. Otherwise, buy the kit and
DIY. Worst case, DIY with your own epoxy as I did.

PS. You must have prayed to Father Salanus beforehand if you got
through a vacation with that thing.

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TOPIC: Are you Really Getting Vitamins in New Diet Coke Plus?
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/8faf755ca6771c4c?hl=en
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== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 12 2007 3:39 pm
From: "D."

I read recently about a new Diet Coke product, called "Diet Coke
Plus," which has a number of vitamins and minerals added to it. Later
that same day, I read a story about Coke and Cargill getting together
to market a new type of natural sweetener based upon the ancient plant
Stevia. These items seem to be the start of a trend where some of the
world's largest companies are sitting up and taking notice of the
natural products industry.

While I haven't been able to get a confirmation of this Stevia work,
it appears to be a rumor that has really made the rounds. It's getting
a lot of play because giant corporations such as these are not most
people's choice for natural, healthy products.

A closer examination of Diet Coke Plus shows that it is the standard
Coke product with the addition of a very small amount of nutritional
supplementation (B6, B12, niacin, zinc, and magnesium). These five
ingredients are present in this drink at an absurdly small level, most
likely due to cost. There's about a penny's worth of these ingredients
in a can of Diet Coke Plus (my guess).

Is this going to mean that Coke drinkers are suddenly going to start
to be a lot healthier? I don't think it will make any difference at
all for most people--certainly not enough of a health difference to
overcome the health COST of drinking all those artificial sweeteners.
What it WILL do, however, is cause some people to grab a Diet Coke
when they might have instead enjoyed something more healthy, perhaps a
spring water or juice drink.

In short, it's a marketing gimmick, pure and simple.

While I wouldn't want to see Coke or Cargill start messing with Stevia
(modifying the plant for patent purposes), Stevia as a sweetener could
indeed be a revolutionary change in a product like Diet Coke Plus if
the sugar substitute was left in its natural state. I might even drink
that product.

Dave

Full text article above extracted from http://shamvswham.blogspot.com/

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 12 2007 7:15 pm
From: Logan Shaw

D. wrote:
> A closer examination of Diet Coke Plus shows that it is the standard
> Coke product with the addition of a very small amount of nutritional
> supplementation (B6, B12, niacin, zinc, and magnesium).

Seems like exactly what I'd expect from a product called "Diet Coke Plus".
I'd expect it to be like regular Diet Coke but with some small thing
added to it. And in fact that's what it is, Diet Coke plus a few
vitamins.

> These five
> ingredients are present in this drink at an absurdly small level, most
> likely due to cost. There's about a penny's worth of these ingredients
> in a can of Diet Coke Plus (my guess).

It could be cost.

It could also be that some people drink more than one soft drink a day.
If you make the levels in one can too high, the people who drink several
cans will get too much of the vitamins, and some vitamins are harmful
when you get too much of them. So to me, the levels of about 10-15%
of the recommended daily amount seem like just about the right levels.

It could also be taste. When I tried it, it seemed to taste just a
little different from regular Diet Coke. If I wasn't just imagining
that and if they doubled the amounts, it might taste a LOT different.

> Is this going to mean that Coke drinkers are suddenly going to start
> to be a lot healthier? I don't think it will make any difference at
> all for most people--certainly not enough of a health difference to
> overcome the health COST of drinking all those artificial sweeteners.
> What it WILL do, however, is cause some people to grab a Diet Coke
> when they might have instead enjoyed something more healthy, perhaps a
> spring water or juice drink.

Since most Americans are overweight, Diet Coke is probably a lot
healthier for them than a juice drink. The reason is simple: aspartame
has not even conclusively been shown to cause any problem, but being
overweight *has* conclusively been linked to diabetes, heart disease,
stroke, high blood pressure, and about a hundred other ailments from
skin conditions to joint problems.

> In short, it's a marketing gimmick, pure and simple.

Well, yeah. But considering it's exactly the same cost as regular
Diet Coke, if you already drink Diet Coke and want the extra vitamins
it provides, I say go ahead and drink it.

- Logan

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 12 2007 8:32 pm
From: "D."

On Aug 12, 7:15 pm, Logan Shaw <lshaw-use...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
> D. wrote:
> > A closer examination of Diet Coke Plus shows that it is the standard
> > Coke product with the addition of a very small amount of nutritional
> > supplementation (B6, B12, niacin, zinc, and magnesium).
>
> Seems like exactly what I'd expect from a product called "Diet Coke Plus".
> I'd expect it to be like regular Diet Coke but with some small thing
> added to it. And in fact that's what it is, Diet Coke plus a few
> vitamins.
>
> > These five
> > ingredients are present in this drink at an absurdly small level, most
> > likely due to cost. There's about a penny's worth of these ingredients
> > in a can of Diet Coke Plus (my guess).
>
> It could be cost.
>
> It could also be that some people drink more than one soft drink a day.
> If you make the levels in one can too high, the people who drink several
> cans will get too much of the vitamins, and some vitamins are harmful
> when you get too much of them. So to me, the levels of about 10-15%
> of the recommended daily amount seem like just about the right levels.
>
> It could also be taste. When I tried it, it seemed to taste just a
> little different from regular Diet Coke. If I wasn't just imagining
> that and if they doubled the amounts, it might taste a LOT different.
>
> > Is this going to mean that Coke drinkers are suddenly going to start
> > to be a lot healthier? I don't think it will make any difference at
> > all for most people--certainly not enough of a health difference to
> > overcome the health COST of drinking all those artificial sweeteners.
> > What it WILL do, however, is cause some people to grab a Diet Coke
> > when they might have instead enjoyed something more healthy, perhaps a
> > spring water or juice drink.
>
> Since most Americans are overweight, Diet Coke is probably a lot
> healthier for them than a juice drink. The reason is simple: aspartame
> has not even conclusively been shown to cause any problem, but being
> overweight *has* conclusively been linked to diabetes, heart disease,
> stroke, high blood pressure, and about a hundred other ailments from
> skin conditions to joint problems.
>
> > In short, it's a marketing gimmick, pure and simple.
>
> Well, yeah. But considering it's exactly the same cost as regular
> Diet Coke, if you already drink Diet Coke and want the extra vitamins
> it provides, I say go ahead and drink it.
>
> - Logan

Good comments, thanks Logan. There are a lot of scientists, however,
who are studying the reasons why diet sodas seem to make people MORE
obese. But that's another subject altogether . . .

Dave

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Long Distance carrier advice -- Yes, again
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/d676c088cd98a4cf?hl=en
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== 1 of 6 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 12 2007 4:26 pm
From: timbirr@mailcity.com

On Aug 12, 2:15 pm, George Grapman <sfgeo...@paccbell.net> wrote:
> timb...@mailcity.com wrote:
> > I considered Powernet when I decided on Opex. Forget why I decided on
> > Opex vs. Powernet.
>
> > Just looked at Verizon's rates, still way too high compared to others
> > such as Opex.
>
> Keep in mind that some companies require you to buy other services in
> order to get an unlimited call plan. I pay $35 for IDT which includes
> caller ID, three way and the bundle of features. AT&T had to but other
> features which made it closer to $45.

I just need something simple. Like to keep it around $9 - $10 per
month. Don't need much more.

== 2 of 6 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 12 2007 4:32 pm
From: George Grapman

timbirr@mailcity.com wrote:
> On Aug 12, 2:15 pm, George Grapman <sfgeo...@paccbell.net> wrote:
>> timb...@mailcity.com wrote:
>>> I considered Powernet when I decided on Opex. Forget why I decided on
>>> Opex vs. Powernet.
>>> Just looked at Verizon's rates, still way too high compared to others
>>> such as Opex.
>> Keep in mind that some companies require you to buy other services in
>> order to get an unlimited call plan. I pay $35 for IDT which includes
>> caller ID, three way and the bundle of features. AT&T had to but other
>> features which made it closer to $45.
>
> I just need something simple. Like to keep it around $9 - $10 per
> month. Don't need much more.
>
Are most of your calls local? You can drop your long distance carrier
which saves you about $5 and use phone cards or a dial around service
for LD calls.

== 3 of 6 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 12 2007 4:54 pm
From: timbirr@mailcity.com

.
>
> Are most of your calls local? You can drop your long distance carrier
> which saves you about $5 and use phone cards or a dial around service
> for LD calls.

With Verizon we had about a $25-$30 LD bill each month, mostly wife
calling sisters out of state.

Bill dropped more than 50 percent with OPEX, hitting around $9 to $12
a month.

I did have a dial around for a bit, in the late 90's. Call America, I
think, but wife hated it, don't know why, worked fine for me...but
anyway, she wants 1+ and I have been married long enough to know when
not to argue LOL!

== 4 of 6 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 12 2007 8:53 pm
From: Gene S. Berkowitz

In article <1186961178.234612.22720@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
timbirr@mailcity.com says...
> On Aug 12, 2:15 pm, George Grapman <sfgeo...@paccbell.net> wrote:
> > timb...@mailcity.com wrote:
> > > I considered Powernet when I decided on Opex. Forget why I decided on
> > > Opex vs. Powernet.
> >
> > > Just looked at Verizon's rates, still way too high compared to others
> > > such as Opex.
> >
> > Keep in mind that some companies require you to buy other services in
> > order to get an unlimited call plan. I pay $35 for IDT which includes
> > caller ID, three way and the bundle of features. AT&T had to but other
> > features which made it closer to $45.
>
> I just need something simple. Like to keep it around $9 - $10 per
> month. Don't need much more.

I continue to be happy with ECG. 3.5 cents/minute for LD, slightly
higher for intra-state. They do pass along the Universal Service Fee, at
9.1% of your call total.

http://www.ecglongdistance.net/

--Gene

== 5 of 6 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 12 2007 9:04 pm
From: timbirr@mailcity.com

On Aug 12, 8:53 pm, Gene S. Berkowitz <first.l...@comcast.net> wrote:

> I continue to be happy with ECG. 3.5 cents/minute for LD, slightly
> higher for intra-state. They do pass along the Universal Service Fee, at
> 9.1% of your call total.
>
> http://www.ecglongdistance.net/
>
> --Gene

ECG looks fantastic. Unfortunately, they don't offer service in my
area. :>(

PowerNet seems to want my social security number, at least in the
couple of "resellers" I found. Not going to happen.

Any other ideas.?

== 6 of 6 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 12 2007 9:55 pm
From: "Dave L"

<timbirr@mailcity.com> wrote in message
news:1186977883.893229.56890@q4g2000prc.googlegroups.com...
> On Aug 12, 8:53 pm, Gene S. Berkowitz <first.l...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> I continue to be happy with ECG. 3.5 cents/minute for LD, slightly
>> higher for intra-state. They do pass along the Universal Service Fee, at
>> 9.1% of your call total.
>>
>> http://www.ecglongdistance.net/
>>
>> --Gene
>
> ECG looks fantastic. Unfortunately, they don't offer service in my
> area. :>(
>
> PowerNet seems to want my social security number, at least in the
> couple of "resellers" I found. Not going to happen.
>
> Any other ideas.?

Zone LD. 3.5c/min with online billing and invoices. Bill automatically to
your cc.. I believe they still use the Global Crossing network.
http://my.zoneld.com

-Dave

==============================================================================
TOPIC: The Truth
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/1fe3c6e7a340cb96?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 12 2007 4:59 pm
From: "laelahaellallah@gmail.com"

Explore & discover & be convinced that ISLAM is the truth! ...
Please Visit:
http://www.beconvinced.com

==============================================================================
TOPIC: FREE 3 days/ 2 nights travel certificates
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/e6c3152308349f8c?hl=en
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== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 12 2007 5:16 pm
From: Free-Travel-Man

Hi, wanted to remind you about our free travel 3 days & 2 nights
certificates that you can try.

http://www.increasebusinesssales.com/index.html

You can also buy 100 or more of our 3 days & 2 nights and have your
name or company name printed on the certificate as well as a contact
number.

100 certificates cost is $1.25 each and the print with your name is
free.

http://www.increasebusinesssales.com/order.php

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 12 2007 5:38 pm
From: George Grapman

Free-Travel-Man wrote:
> Hi, wanted to remind you about our free travel 3 days & 2 nights
> certificates that you can try.
>
> http://www.increasebusinesssales.com/index.html
>
>
>
>
>
> You can also buy 100 or more of our 3 days & 2 nights and have your
> name or company name printed on the certificate as well as a contact
> number.
>
>
>
> 100 certificates cost is $1.25 each and the print with your name is
> free.
>

They want your credit card. The address on the site is a PO Box and
calling the number gets a generic message that the customers voice mail
box has not been set up.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Car and home insurance
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/9ee78fe95ec2cc17?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 12 2007 5:30 pm
From: jane8816

Screentrade.co.uk is the UK's longest established online broker (est.
1997) and is a trading name of Lloyds TSB Insurance. Their products
include car and home insurance and they use a panel of top UK insurers
to search for the cheapest deals, so their customers don't have to.

In raising their profile, Screentrade are launching a nationwide
advertising campaign over the next few months, which includes TV,
Radio and bus advertising. Screentrade are soon to become a household
name.

Which insurers are used?

As a broker, screentrade uses a panel of top insurers, which include
Churchill, Provident, Zenith, NIG, Chaucer, Groupama and Fortis. They
search for the best possible deal on their customer's behalf.

How competitive are they?

In showing just how competitive screentrade.co.uk is, independent
research was conducted by IRDS (mailirds@aol.com) in May 2004,
comparing car insurance quotes from a number of household names
associated with cheap and affordable insurance. The likes of Direct
Line, esure, Elephant, More Than and Virgin all took part.

The results ranked screentrade as the second most competitive, behind
only

esure. However, unlike esure, screentrade do not insist on a minimum
of 4 years no claim discount in order to quote.

<a href="http://www.anrdoezrs.net/click-2447702-10295989"
target="_top">Cheap car insurance at screentrade.co.uk</a>
<img src="http://www.ftjcfx.com/image-2447702-10295989" width="1"
height="1" border="0"/>

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Motivating high-school students to join college
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/d0a99ec5ae726fd3?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 12 2007 6:19 pm
From: m1@mailinator.com

My nephew and his friend are living with me since a few weeks, till
their parents return from an overseas trip, and both are teenagers who
will be completing high school next year (May 08).

Unfortunately, during the few weeks they stayed with me, I did not
monitor them closely and the two boys have talked to people in my
neighborhood, places where they were working part-time and got some
ideas about not going to a college immediately after high-school is
more profitable in the long run.

The problem started as they talked to people in my neighborhood and
were working in retail stores (like Target and JCPenney) as their
parents had allowed them to work part-time during their stay with
them. Somehow, the two boys have got the idea that it is far more
lucrative to continue working full time after completing high-school,
get a few years experience in a specific field, start their own
business and become wealthy relatively faster as compared to someone
who gets a college degree. They told me that they were going to
discuss this matter with their parents. Obviously, their parents will
dissuade them like me, but I don't want the parents to think I
misguided the boys while they were with me. I am 26 years old, a
recent graduate (having a B.S. + M.S in Computer Science), working for
the state govt. and my gross salary is 32K and net is 25K in
Tallahassee, FL. Both the teenagers were partly discouraged looking
at my salary after a 6 year college degree. I explained to them as I
liked to contribute my talents to the govt. sector where there is
relatively less hustle, politics and need of producing short term
gains as compared to corporate sector and hence took up a job with the
State govt.

In my area people who work for stores like Target, JC Penney people
with high school diploma and 2-3 years of experience start with
50K(gross), people having their own business(credit union, bank, gas
station, grocery store, real estate agent, landlord, hotel, restaurant
owners, automobile stores, automobile parts and the varied number of
shops we all see on the roads) are well in 300K - 500K in their middle
twenties(24-27) and some more experienced folks are 1M(one million) or
more. I was slightly skeptical, but the boys were told(by the folks
who gave them this information) it is accurate as people in the
corporate sector or having their own business typically earn lot more
than people in the govt. sector or else most of them wouldn't be
working there for the private sector or running their own business,
which I could not deny.

They were advised to start their own business and prosper rather than
get a college degree and aid the State (or corporate sector) in
generating revenue like me. They were informed in today's age of
obtaining degrees on the Web, distance education classes practically
anyone can get a degree when they truly require it (in 1-2 years or
so) which so many Web only campuses provide. They were told going to
college and spending 3-4 years while you can get it in 2 years when
you actually require it seems a bit odd.

One of my neighbor who just has an A.S. in Computer Science works as a
contractor. He teaches classes to new employees of state in fields
like Java,PL/SQL etc. and earns about 160K gross and 120K net. He gets
about 5K income per week he teaches a class and sometimes about 7K. He
is employed about 30-35 weeks per year out of the 52 weeks in a year.
His net is 120K as he gets enormous tax breaks of running a business
not to mention the funds he receives under the table(which seems
unethical and how he does that is a mystery to me) which are tax free.
His wife works for a State agency getting benefits(health/life
insurance/investment) for the family. The husband is 24 and wife is
22(no college degree). Their household income is about 135K and only
one member in their household has a 2 year college degree. He told the
boys they could follow his path, as state agencies have some funds
allocated for training and if one has good contacts with key people in
the state agencies, their employment odds are high as the state
agencies will hire them every year for teaching the same subject. If
things don't work out, one can nearly always find a secure job with
local, state or federal government, but at first one should take
risks, if he wants to retire decently, buy a car, home, put his
children through college and other myriad expenses incurred in raising
a family.

Another person in my area is an immigrant from another part of world.
He immigrated at 55 to U.S. with no funds and aided by his relatives
started a motel and became a millionaire at 65. I could not explain to
the boys how someone with no college degree, comes to our country at
55 and becomes so prosperous in 10 years. Agreed, most businesses
which pan out like his did are in that range, but I could not find a
valid reason that so many people having college degrees and working
for govt. or private sector are having financial issues in their
fifties, but such business owners are remarkably flourishing. The
immigrant secured loans from banks as his relatives were a collateral
for him. His relatives also taught him the tricks of motel
business(hike up the price during weekends, when there is a big
function in City, getting tax breaks, dealings under the table by cash
only deals etc.) His relatives were like that person except that they
came while they were between the age group of 30-35. I realize people
who have their own businesses are normally well off as compared to
someone who work for private or govt. sector.

Another immigrant living a few blocks from me is from India. He came
through a
visa program similar to this one explained at this link
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/25/AR2007062502016.html?hpid=topnews
The link states how someone was running a company by bringing people
to our country and gaining his commission from the companies that
require such people. That immigrant (person X) came through the same
means. He has a Bachelor's in Computer Engineering and he came on some
work visa (H1-B). He worked for companies like Goldman Sachs, Ernst
and Young and many other financial firms and 40% of his salary was
withheld by the person who brought him as part of the deal for
bringing him to the country. He after gaining permanent residency
applied the same method. He would bring someone from India/China
stating he wants to employ person 'A', thus applying for person A's H1-
B visa. Person 'A' would work for a company like Goldman Sachs who
would be billed for 80$/hr. Person A would obtain only 30$/hr with no
benefits as 50$ will be his employer's (person X) charges. Thus,
person X obtained a profit of about 25$/hr from one person A (after
deducting business expenses of 25$/hr from the 80$/hour rate he was
billing Goldman Sachs) or about 50K per person. He brought in 10 such
people from India/China every year and is now a multi-millionaire at
32. He just has to advertise his employees properly and ensure there
are projects for them all the year round just like any other
consulting company. The H1-B visa was implemented to enable foreign
workers who are actually skilled to be hired in U.S. rather than
bringing someone who will pay a percentage of his wages to his
employer and without any benefits. I explained to the boys it was like
some admission official in a top college allowing unworthy students to
get admitted(who actually did not deserve and did not meet the
standards of the college) just because the students were allowing to
grease the palms of the admission official. This keeps the truly
talented students out of the college (and deprives them of their
chances of growth) as well as degrades the quality of the college as a
campus is judged by its students. Granted, he is impacting the U.S.
company in a negative way, but that person was just worried about
filling his pocket. The boys assured me they will not indulge in any
such dishonest tactics (taking advantage of loopholes in immigration
law) which would be detrimental to our country's economy in the short
and long run.

Another family in my neighborhood runs an internet site like
http://www.mymoneyblog.com/ and generates revenue of about 300K per
year from the advertisements on their site. The boys were attracted to
this venture also as that household folks learned computers 4 years
ago.

Another person who worked for a while(3-4 years) at a bank after high-
school, started his own credit union and became a multi-millionaire at
32. Another man became a millionaire after working for an expensive
restaurant and then starting his own restaurant at 33. As the boys
were working at the retail stores like Target and JC Penney, looking
at the crowd which was purchasing expensive items daily, they thought
that most people in our area are quite well off. Unfortunately, as I
am in low income and hardly ever go to such malls, the boys concluded
looking at me, starting your own business one can become far more
financially independent compared to going to college and then working
for someone. I attempted to explain that few people who shop in such
malls go on unwanted spending (resulting in unnecessary debt) which is
not a proper practice, but could not refute the fact that our country
has the maximum billionaires or in other words people in our country
are quite well off and hence can afford such spending.

They talked to my landlord who owns about 100 apartments and hardly
knows anything about house repair. On a repair call from a tenant, he
sends his repair crew, still manages to pocket 1.5M after his expenses
or taxes. That person is just 25, but he had the advantage that his
grandfather purchased the property and paid the mortgage long ago, so
this person just has to collect rent from people like me and lead a
leisurely life. I wanted to explain to the boys that, though my
landlord(without clearing middle school) has a seven figure salary
working 10hours/week, instances like him are little rare. But, the
boys were not fully convinced by my explanation as there are too many
people in the real estate industry who are in the seven figure income
in my area and possibly 8-9 figures in places like urban California
and New York City. The boys thought despite of me having a six year
degree I was not so well off financially, but people like my landlord
were heavily prospering. I recognize it is tenants like me who
contribute to my landlord's wealth at my expense.

A fellow who has a construction business, earns about 500K per year at
26 without a college degree. He had to gain some licenses, but 500K
seemed quite attractive to the youngsters at 26, though I believe such
cases are uncommon.

Couple of other folks who have pawn shops, gas stations, grocery
stores, automobile shops, retail stores gave the boys same idea of
working somewhere and then starting their own business to become a
millionaire while in their twenties. All the people told the boys,
starting your own business and on the first few years doing as much
cash only transactions will aid them in evading lot of taxes and after
then keeping two registers for transactions like one for
IRS(evidently, which will be fabricated) and one which shows the
actual dealings. Seraching the web viewing links such as
http://www.careerprospects.org/Trends/salary-sixfigure.html,
discussions in stock/investment newsgroups as well as e-bay newsgroups
made the youngsters believe 6 figure salaries is indeed very common in
our country and if so many people with a high school diploma are
obtaining it, it should be possible for them if they act wisely after
high school. Apparently, they were informed that most people in the
sports, media(TV/movie/radio industry) are well beyond the 6 figure
salary. I understand few sports coach salaries are in seven figures,
some movie/TV/radio stars and many others are well in the six figures,
not all, but it tough convincing the young folks of risks (success
rate of actors) present in such fields.

Some have suggested the boys to gain some experience in credit card
industry which is booming. The boys were informed Visa/Mastercard earn
about 25% of each transaction as their transaction fees and removing
the business expenses they earn a profit of about 10% per transaction.
Organizations which provide Bill pay service to new banks earn
interest by just moving funds around from the payer to payee, and
earning funds in the interim period. As I don't have much knowledge
about such services I could not refute statements stated by people who
work in banking industry. That was one other area the boys were
suggested to go into.

The teenagers read a couple of books on the library which gave them
some 101 top business ideas, but I clarified if the ideas actually
worked, the author could be earning a mint himself before he published
the book.

http://www.google.com/services/local-business-referrals/repfaq.html
http://www.selladsense.com/
are few of the links where people can earn some funds which the boys
were suggested to look into. I don't know how much of these programs
work so could not advise the boys but told them to be careful.

Another reason the teenagers had a bleak picture after college was the
heavy outsourcing. Many fields are being outsourced and it is hard to
obtain positions for college graduates. A typical fresh IT graduate
would demand about 25-30K or more depending on the area, whereas
someone in India/China with 7 years of experience would be willing to
work for half of that salary. I told the boys, that is a fact in most
aspects of life and we have to somehow adjust to it.

I stated examples of how people with a college degree working for the
State could start with 100K or more in my area (Tallahasee, FL) after
graduation as explained below. I gave them an example of a
hypothetical high school student who finishes high school at 17-18.
And, today virtually all high school students take AP(Advanced
Placement) classes while in high school itself which enables them to
start as a sophomore(2nd year student in college) instead of a
freshman(1st year student in college). There, they can save a year so
they can get their bachelor's in 3 years instead of 4 years. Taking
all the summer and winter classes their campus may offer (and today
most colleges have winter or summer classes) they complete the
workload of 3 years in 2 years. So, by the time they are 19 or 20 they
have finished their Bachelor's. Then, with a year of experience of
research at 20 or 21 about the Bachelor's thesis work they can go for
Ph.D and finish in about 4 years which is 24 or 25. Then, they can
start as a tenure track faculty or Assistant Professor. Where I live
there is a university FSU(http://www.fsu.edu) where such faculties
start with 80K for nine months. For three months of summer they get
additional 27K. So, their yearly salary is 80+27 = 107K. Assuming a
household in which both members (husband and wife) do this, the
household income of such a family is 107*2 = 214K at the age group of
24-25 and that too working for the State Govt. (as FSU is a state
university) and not suspectible to outsourcing, market factors as much
as corporate sector, though the summer supplement may not be available
if the economy is in a recession. This example is accurate if one has
the doctrate in engineering fields, management, nursing, law etc. For
other fields, I don't know the starting salary at FSU.

Most lawyers, optometrists, nuclear, chemical, petroleum engineer, MBA
graduates from top 15 B-schools start with 100K or quite close after
graduation in the area where I live. I encouraged the boys to be like
the professionals I stated. I recognize the final choice can be made
only by the parents and children, but I wanted them to get a college
education which would help them understand things better in life and
work place.

Granted, like most aspects in life the higher the risk, more is the
reward. And, starting one's own business brings its own rewards which
is the reason most people commence their own business or continue
their family business and indeed prosper. But, I feel the boys could
approach that issue after a Bachelor's degree and that time is not
wasted if they actually learn something in a college.

Finally, I did not intend to disparage anyone (immigrant examples),
FSU faculty salaries might be little low or high(I got the number from
a friend) or the numerous examples( commission charged by Visa/
Mastercard, people in different fields). I understand different people
have different talents and they pursue them. A person having athletic
or acting ability can be a sportstar or in the media industry and it
is completely fine, but I did not want the boys to choose a path
solely based on the financial rewards. The salaries of people like my
landlord, people in my neighbourhood, restaurant owners etc. were
obtained from the folks themselves by the teenagers(so might be a
little high/low) and may have a slight variance depending on the
market.

I realize the issue I am facing is not new and people in this group
who are far more knowledgeable can guide me in encouraging the
teenagers to pursue college. I would appreciate any advice.

Thanks a lot.

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 12 2007 7:39 pm
From: Logan Shaw

m1@mailinator.com wrote:
> My nephew and his friend are living with me since a few weeks, till
> their parents return from an overseas trip, and both are teenagers who
> will be completing high school next year (May 08).
>
> Unfortunately, during the few weeks they stayed with me, I did not
> monitor them closely and the two boys have talked to people in my
> neighborhood, places where they were working part-time and got some
> ideas about not going to a college immediately after high-school is
> more profitable in the long run.
>
> The problem started as they talked to people in my neighborhood and
> were working in retail stores (like Target and JCPenney) as their
> parents had allowed them to work part-time during their stay with
> them. Somehow, the two boys have got the idea that it is far more
> lucrative to continue working full time after completing high-school,
> get a few years experience in a specific field, start their own
> business and become wealthy relatively faster as compared to someone
> who gets a college degree. They told me that they were going to
> discuss this matter with their parents. Obviously, their parents will
> dissuade them like me, but I don't want the parents to think I
> misguided the boys while they were with me.

Tell them the truth: that college doesn't guarantee anything. But
also tell them the rest of the truth: neither does anything else.
Just because you think you can start a business doesn't mean you
will succeed. Success takes hard work, period. Yes, it's totally
possible to achieve success without a college degree. But it's
somewhat easier to do it with a degree. You only need statistics to
make that clear. Look at this government report which breaks down
earnings and other things as a function of educational attainment:

http://www.census.gov/prod/2002pubs/p23-210.pdf

According to figure 3, the average high school graduate makes $1.2
million over the course of their life. But the average college
graduate makes $2.1 million. So I guess if you want to immediately
put yourself at a disadvantage statistically, you should skip college.

It might not hurt to also point out that college is for many people
the most fun they have in their entire life. It's where you will
meet some of the most interesting people you'll ever meet in your
life. I can't figure out why someone would want to skip that.

- Logan

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 12 2007 9:09 pm
From: "Rod Speed"

Logan Shaw <lshaw-usenet@austin.rr.com> wrote:
> m1@mailinator.com wrote:
>> My nephew and his friend are living with me since a few weeks, till
>> their parents return from an overseas trip, and both are teenagers
>> who will be completing high school next year (May 08).
>>
>> Unfortunately, during the few weeks they stayed with me, I did not
>> monitor them closely and the two boys have talked to people in my
>> neighborhood, places where they were working part-time and got some
>> ideas about not going to a college immediately after high-school is
>> more profitable in the long run.
>>
>> The problem started as they talked to people in my neighborhood and
>> were working in retail stores (like Target and JCPenney) as their
>> parents had allowed them to work part-time during their stay with
>> them. Somehow, the two boys have got the idea that it is far more
>> lucrative to continue working full time after completing high-school,
>> get a few years experience in a specific field, start their own
>> business and become wealthy relatively faster as compared to someone
>> who gets a college degree. They told me that they were going to
>> discuss this matter with their parents. Obviously, their parents will
>> dissuade them like me, but I don't want the parents to think I
>> misguided the boys while they were with me.
>
> Tell them the truth: that college doesn't guarantee anything. But
> also tell them the rest of the truth: neither does anything else.
> Just because you think you can start a business doesn't mean you
> will succeed. Success takes hard work, period. Yes, it's totally
> possible to achieve success without a college degree. But it's
> somewhat easier to do it with a degree. You only need statistics to
> make that clear. Look at this government report which breaks down
> earnings and other things as a function of educational attainment:
>
> http://www.census.gov/prod/2002pubs/p23-210.pdf
>
> According to figure 3, the average high school graduate makes $1.2
> million over the course of their life. But the average college
> graduate makes $2.1 million. So I guess if you want to immediately
> put yourself at a disadvantage statistically, you should skip college.

Thats not necessarily a particularly useful statistic tho because
those numbers are biased against the dregs of the labor market
that dont even consider the alternatives and couldnt manage
college and so arent the situation those two kids are in.

> It might not hurt to also point out that college is for many people
> the most fun they have in their entire life. It's where you will meet some of the most
> interesting people you'll ever meet in your life.

Plenty find that is true in spades of their work.

> I can't figure out why someone would want to skip that.

There's plenty that dont find that appeals to them.

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 12 2007 9:48 pm
From: Logan Shaw

Rod Speed wrote:
> Logan Shaw <lshaw-usenet@austin.rr.com> wrote:
>> http://www.census.gov/prod/2002pubs/p23-210.pdf
>>
>> According to figure 3, the average high school graduate makes $1.2
>> million over the course of their life. But the average college
>> graduate makes $2.1 million. So I guess if you want to immediately
>> put yourself at a disadvantage statistically, you should skip college.

> Thats not necessarily a particularly useful statistic tho because
> those numbers are biased against the dregs of the labor market
> that dont even consider the alternatives and couldnt manage
> college and so arent the situation those two kids are in.

That point of view makes some sense. I'm sure there are some effects
that work in that direction, i.e. some people go to college because
they are smart, and some people do not go to college because they are
not prepared for it enough to succeed there (never learned algebra in
high school, that kind of thing). And there are also probably some
other related effects: young people whose parents take an active role
in their life and try to help them succeed are more likely to encourage
them to go to college.

But personally I think that while those things are true, a college
degree is, on average, genuinely beneficial to your career. I
personally dropped out of college, then worked for 6 or 7 years,
then went back and finished college, then started working again.
On several occasions during job interviews, potential employers have
made positive comments about my going back to finish college. They
seemed impressed that I was interested in finishing even though I
had an established career without it. That is one of the main
benefits of college: people look at your college degree and think,
"There's someone who has followed through with at least one major
thing in their life." Another major benefit is that you can look
at yourself and when you are facing a challenging situation, you
can say, "This is not as hard as college, and I finished college;
therefore, I can finish this." And of course another benefit is
that you actually learn things. In my particular case as a computer
programmer, I actually learned things that are directly relevant
to my job.

>> It might not hurt to also point out that college is for many people
>> the most fun they have in their entire life.

> Plenty find that is true in spades of their work.

Sure, it can happen there too. But college is a great opportunity
to do that and really get to know a wide variety of people from
all over the world.

>> I can't figure out why someone would want to skip that.

> There's plenty that dont find that appeals to them.

I was like that the first time around. I went to college initially
only because it was expected of me. Predictably, I did not do well.
Later when I chose to do it because *I* wanted to, I did much, much
better. So it would probably be good to stress the point that it
often doesn't do much good to force someone to go to college.

- Logan

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Home Based Typist/Data Entry
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.consumers.frugal-living/browse_thread/thread/3f70a7190ca97e4e?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 12 2007 9:33 pm
From: mpalmer01@hotmail.com

On Aug 13, 5:50 am, janniceprocess...@gmail.com wrote:
> We have several openings available in this area earning $300.00 -
> $500.00 per week.
>
> We are seeking only honest, self-motivated people with a desire to
> work in the home typing and data entry field, from the comfort of
> their own homes. The preferred applicants should be at least 18 years
> old with Internet access.
>
> No experience is needed. However the following skills are desirable:
> Basic computer and typing skills
> Ability to spell and print neatly
> Ability to follow instructions
> Requirements:
> Computer with Internet access
> Valid email address
> Good typing skills
> Basic Internet knowledge
>
> If you fit the above description and meet the requirements please
> apply at: janniceprocess...@gmail.com

Hi, I am interested in the above position. I have all the required
skills & experience as outlined. My typing speed in 45 wpm with 100%
accuracy.

Regards,
Marie

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Sunday, August 12, 2007

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